Another Well Known Trading Guild Basically bites the Dust

Elsonso · August 2

Jaraal wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

People are losing interest very quickly in Gold Road and as a result the game itself this year. ESO feels neglected. There is such a long list of issues this year from terrible failures during the Anniversary and Transmute Events, the Environmental changes, and the Gold Road mini-Chapter. Constant boss immunity phases, a half-baked zone full of locked doors, and a much worse-Spellcraft system which was set up to be barely usable until months later.

Agreed. It's not one single thing, it's the continued erosion of the player experience, as well as the never ending quality of life nerfs purported in the name of performance.

I disagree, at least in part. I can certainly see that Gold Road might not hold interest, as the only real long term engagement is Scribing, and that is a grind system. I also don't expect that Scribing will catch up with Arcanist.

I do think that the best way to describe West Weald is as a 4Q DLC elevated to the stature of a Chapter. I expect that the engagement with Gold Road zone content will mirror content like Murkmire and Clockwork City rather than what we got in Chapters like Necrom, Elsweyr, Morrowind, and Summerset.

However, what I am seeing in the game is definitely not a lack of interest. I get that there is an event going on, and that is going to attract more players.

I do think that there are certain parts of the game where ZOS has chased away players. Like with many decisions they have made recently, guild trader and mail retention changes are a case of them doing things that don't engage with portions of the player base. That part of the player base, once they realize this, does tend to wander away.

I don't think that extends to the larger population, but anyone immersed in the part that is impacted, it might look like it is.

Edit: To be fair, there is nothing to stop ZOS from taking this sort of thing on tour and incrementally annoying and chasing away different parts of the player-base every few months. Some might say they have been doing this since Update 35...

Dagoth_Rac · August 2

The popular flowers used to sell for 300 gold. Then they shot up to 3000+ gold. Now that prices are going down, but still well above what they were in the past, it is an economic catastrophe that is going to kill the game? How did the game thrive with much lower prices in the past but cannot survive now?

hiyde · August 2

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Now that prices are going down, but still well above what they were in the past, it is an economic catastrophe that is going to kill the game? How did the game thrive with much lower prices in the past

Disclaimer: I'm not pretending to speak for everything, everywhere, just my observations on PCNA and the guilds I'm in/see data for.

The difference right now is that sales took a 40% nosedive in a single week at the end of Jubilee (after not rising *during* the event, which is atypical). Sales continued to decline through the Chapter release, Zenithar and MYM (all of which is not the norm).

For the guilds I'm familiar with on PCNA, weekly sales are now 60-70% (!) lower than 2023/early 2024 averages. Worse than that, the number of items being sold is way down.

A noticable number of long-time veteran traders are exiting or taking a break, biggest exodus of these types of players I've seen since the AwA update. Those who took time to say goodbye all pointed to the same things: Hard to sell things, annoyance at listings changes and lack of excitement for Gold Road.

To answer your question of why this is different, we've never seen sales plunge anywhere near this extent and it's resulting in demoralization of experienced traders. Yes, bids are down, but so is support because a lot of folks don't wanna sell items at 30% of what they were getting a couple months ago.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, the game is dying or that any of this is unrecoverable. But from the trade guild perspective, it's rough right now. It's probably going to take time for people to adjust to the new reality, along with new players arriving who weren't here when prices/values were so much higher.

My biggest issue of all of this is that, whatever the catalyst(s) were, this happened way too fast. Inflation was rampant on PCNA and a correction is probably healthy, just not literally overnight and without warning.

quinancia · August 2

LaintalAy wrote: »

quinancia wrote: »

Location does matter. I am in three trade guilds. One with a great location, one with a good location, and one with a bad location. I list the same items (mats) at the same prices in all three. Literally. The same items, quantities, and prices. The difference in sales between all three is dramatic.

And yes. The economy is unstable right now.

Location only matters because players are apparently unable or unwilling to use a wayshrine.

You haven't thought outside of the square here.

People buying your goods at your 'good' location don't care about the price.
People buying your goods at at your 'bad' location are looking for cheaper prices; or smaller quantities

I have made excellent results with traders at Grahtwood, Malabal Tor and Reaper's March. Listing what I think will sell and relisting when they don't sell. You need to understand who's coming to those traders and why.

There are many locations close to wayshrines with 4 or 5 traders. It doesn't take much effort to travel to 4 or 5 locations to search for something. If you are on PC and have Awesome Guild Store, you can have your filters set to minimise time at each location if you're looking for one specific thing.

The only time that I have used a trader at Vivec or Mournhold this year, was to move some expensive, fast-selling items within one week. I join, sell my stuff and leave the guild. It then doesn't matter to anyone if I meet the quota or not.

If you lower the price enough, all things will sell.
If you need to sell at a specific price, then you're in a guild that is too expensive.
Whatever you are selling, you didn't pay for it, so it's all profit. Unless you're a flipper.

All of this guild 'drama' is psychology and players are being manipulated. Ultimately, that's Ok; as long as they know it...

What you have just done is explain why location matters.

Veinblood1965 · August 2

Stafford197 wrote: »

Honestly, the reason is not the listing duration changes. It is in part but not wholly.

People are losing interest very quickly in Gold Road and as a result the game itself this year. ESO feels neglected. There is such a long list of issues this year from terrible failures during the Anniversary and Transmute Events, the Environmental changes, and the Gold Road mini-Chapter. Constant boss immunity phases, a half-baked zone full of locked doors, and a much worse-Spellcraft system which was set up to be barely usable until months later.

On console we don’t deal with the inflation that PC has, but I can tell you that my trade guild is also struggling. I guess in part because I, like many others, really have lost interest

IMO, these economy changes would have happened regardless. The trade update only sped it up - one more bad change added to the long list of mistakes this year.

Same here, PS4 NA server. I am in three trader guilds. It's not my main reason for playing but it's nice to have extra gold to help people I know. The recent 15 day relist has gotten to be a pain, it seems almost daily I'm relisting a bunch of stuff while at the same time the number of sales have fallen. I am getting to the point where I cannot even stand to login as I see so many items needing relisted.

I liked Gold Road at first but then the mind numbing invulnerable phases of most bosses has gotten to be too much, OMg do not even get me started on incursions. That along with some of the achievements, take the 50 inks and 500 inks achievement. Totally random and rare and it's just something you complete after YEARS(the 500 one) of playing. That along with the endless and I MEAN endless combat changes. OMG just leave stuff alone please.

It's like the people who are making these decisions do not play their own game.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2

hiyde wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Now that prices are going down, but still well above what they were in the past, it is an economic catastrophe that is going to kill the game? How did the game thrive with much lower prices in the past

Disclaimer: I'm not pretending to speak for everything, everywhere, just my observations on PCNA and the guilds I'm in/see data for.

The difference right now is that sales took a 40% nosedive in a single week at the end of Jubilee (after not rising *during* the event, which is atypical). Sales continued to decline through the Chapter release, Zenithar and MYM (all of which is not the norm).

For the guilds I'm familiar with on PCNA, weekly sales are now 60-70% (!) lower than 2023/early 2024 averages. Worse than that, the number of items being sold is way down.

A noticable number of long-time veteran traders are exiting or taking a break, biggest exodus of these types of players I've seen since the AwA update. Those who took time to say goodbye all pointed to the same things: Hard to sell things, annoyance at listings changes and lack of excitement for Gold Road.

To answer your question of why this is different, we've never seen sales plunge anywhere near this extent and it's resulting in demoralization of experienced traders. Yes, bids are down, but so is support because a lot of folks don't wanna sell items at 30% of what they were getting a couple months ago.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, the game is dying or that any of this is unrecoverable. But from the trade guild perspective, it's rough right now. It's probably going to take time for people to adjust to the new reality, along with new players arriving who weren't here when prices/values were so much higher.

My biggest issue of all of this is that, whatever the catalyst(s) were, this happened way too fast. Inflation was rampant on PCNA and a correction is probably healthy, just not literally overnight and without warning.

Thank you for the calm and informative response.

reazea · August 2

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I think that there has been a decline in players. For sure those that play are playing less and logging on less frequently these days. A lower population base is most definitely a part of why the market has collapsed.

reazea · August 2

hiyde wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Now that prices are going down, but still well above what they were in the past, it is an economic catastrophe that is going to kill the game? How did the game thrive with much lower prices in the past

Disclaimer: I'm not pretending to speak for everything, everywhere, just my observations on PCNA and the guilds I'm in/see data for.

The difference right now is that sales took a 40% nosedive in a single week at the end of Jubilee (after not rising *during* the event, which is atypical). Sales continued to decline through the Chapter release, Zenithar and MYM (all of which is not the norm).

For the guilds I'm familiar with on PCNA, weekly sales are now 60-70% (!) lower than 2023/early 2024 averages. Worse than that, the number of items being sold is way down.

A noticable number of long-time veteran traders are exiting or taking a break, biggest exodus of these types of players I've seen since the AwA update. Those who took time to say goodbye all pointed to the same things: Hard to sell things, annoyance at listings changes and lack of excitement for Gold Road.

To answer your question of why this is different, we've never seen sales plunge anywhere near this extent and it's resulting in demoralization of experienced traders. Yes, bids are down, but so is support because a lot of folks don't wanna sell items at 30% of what they were getting a couple months ago.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, the game is dying or that any of this is unrecoverable. But from the trade guild perspective, it's rough right now. It's probably going to take time for people to adjust to the new reality, along with new players arriving who weren't here when prices/values were so much higher.

My biggest issue of all of this is that, whatever the catalyst(s) were, this happened way too fast. Inflation was rampant on PCNA and a correction is probably healthy, just not literally overnight and without warning.

I think you've explained the situation very accurately. Well done.

reazea · August 2

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Very sad to hear that Ankle Biters is having to scale down their trade guild. I've been in the guild before and have done a ton of shopping from Ankle Biters. It makes me worried about how many more of the major trade guilds are going to be forced into the same situation.

BlueRaven · August 2

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

code65536 · August 2

Unless a guild loses a bid, there is no way for them to know that they can no longer afford their spot.

All bids are secret, even after everything is done.

If a guild bids 10 million for a spot every single week and wins every single week, that doesn't mean that 10 million is what they need to keep bidding. It might be that the next highest bid is only 1 million and the guild could be winning using only 2 million bids. Or maybe there are no competing bids at all and the guild is basically flushing 10 million gold down the drain every week. Nobody has access to this information.

Of course, by publicly announcing that they're leaving, they're now inviting people to bid for that spot. But if they just quietly lowered their bids to something that they can afford, there's a fair chance that they could've remained in that spot. After all, if they are struggling to scrape together a weekly bid, then in all likelihood so will anyone else who might be hoping to snipe that spot from them.

I suspect that a lot of guilds that are having trouble "making ends meet" are way overbidding. Because, again, they don't know what their competition is bidding (or if there is even any competition at all), which naturally leads to risk-adverse GMs to overbid.

Basically, I think Ankle Biters effed up here. They should've lowered their bid to a comfortably sustainable level. And then see if they get kicked out of their spot. If they do, then, ok, they can announce to everyone that they're going to give up on Mournhold. But if they don't, then, hey, they had been overbidding and flushing gold down the drain all this time, and now they get to keep their spot without burning through so much gold. But by announcing their departure first, they've suddenly raised the price of that spot because they've essentially invited a bunch of guilds to fight over it. The only time a guild should announce that they're giving up is if a bid that's comfortable, sustainable, and affordable gets them kicked out of their spot.

valenwood_vegan · August 2

Guilds will have to adjust to the new reality, that's for sure... I think the question is whether they (and the top traders) want to.

There are definitely a lot of formerly very active traders who have scaled back or left - losing active and invested players like this can throw guilds into a downward spiral that is difficult to recover from, as guild activity drops, potentially causing others to scale back as well... the GM and remaining officers have to shoulder more of the burden and face burnout...

I imagine we'll see some more major trading guilds scale back or wind down if the current conditions persist.

Regardless of what one thinks about the economy, trading system, etc., it's sad to see a long-established guild run into trouble like this. It's important to remember that these guilds are also communities of players and friends, providing a social aspect to the game through events, chat, discord, etc., that can often be lacking. Wish Ankle Biters the best!

SteveCampsOut · August 2

Bradyfjord wrote: »

I only shop at the major cities with several traders. A lone trader in the middle of nowhere isn't worth my game time. It's just like monopoly money in the end.

I shop wherever Tamriel Trade Center tells me the object I'm searching for exists.

CoronHR · August 2

who on the gods' green nirn are the ankle biters?

dcam86b14_ESO · August 2

ok, alot of so called top trade guilds lose their spots all the time but eventually bounce back. Either it was just poorly managed or the guildmates just lost hope in the guild itself. Adjust and move on.

Warhawke_80 · August 2

If Trading guilds keep falling by the wayside ZoS will have no choice but to initiate a Auction House that anyone can buy and sell from without belonging to a guild....

I personally don't see that as a bad thing....

BlueRaven · August 2

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

If Trading guilds keep falling by the wayside ZoS will have no choice but to initiate a Auction House that anyone can buy and sell from without belonging to a guild....

I personally don't see that as a bad thing....

Simply due to sever demand that is not going to happen. And it makes zero sense RP wise.

This is bad because it is endangering a playstyle many players enjoy. If the discussion was about PvP guilds imploding, or trial guilds, the tone of this discussion may be different. ESO does not have that many players that we can be so snide about trade guild members having a hard time.

Amottica · August 2

LaintalAy wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Managing a trading guild at the top level takes a lot of effort and is not easy to hand over to someone else and have the guild continue to thrive as most are unwilling to put in the effort required or do not understand what is expected.

There is no sane reason for 'top level' guilds to exist.

How will Normal Player be affected if they don't exist?

There is a sane reason for top-level guilds to exist. Top-level traders will be interested in being in a guild that is in a prime location. Many normal players are in the same guilds as they sell much of what they collect. Sane and logical.

However, I am not sure how this is germane to my previous comment.

Necrotech_Master · August 2

i tend to typically shop at whichever traders are most convenient, since i dont use TTC anymore

i dont care which guild is listed there though, that to me has no bearing whatsoever

i dont know all the reasons why items are selling for about half of what they did 6 months ago, though i have a few guesses

i believe that major reasons some items such as mats would be lower would be all of the double harvesting + event boxes giving mats over the past months (anniversary + zenithar), anniversary in particular was pretty harsh because of the excessive farming needed for the bound style pages (so even more boxes were generated outside of just people spamming daily writs)

the mat glut has been continued still because of the hordes of people harvesting mats as that is the most effective way to get ink for scribing

prices likely didnt go up during the event because people were farming so much there was a glut, or people were leaving/taking a break due to the awful drop rates of the style pages, which were also bound too (this rightly annoyed many people)

the zenithar event also dropped a lot of mats

i also believe that there was a lot of gold taken out of the economy as well, likely from sources such as RMT gold spammers being banned, and the after-effects of the whole PTS copy debacle

i think having shorter listing periods is also contributing, people are going to price to sell because they cant afford longer sell times as that would end up eating up multiple listing fees

the blind bidding is part of the reason why trade guilds feel they have to dump so much, as code mentions they are very possibly overbidding by 10s of millions, but they dont know what other guilds are bidding so they overbid to basically guarantee their spot, which i believe is completely unsustainable

Highwayman · August 2

My goal in selling is self sufficiency and keeping bank space, and I am not a major economy player in any way. I'll say sales go noticeably slower (even dropping prices) outside the major hubs.

As a buyer I have noticed a couple times a consistent furnishing store with 2 or 3 sellers at the same out of the way kiosk month after month. I have doubts this scales to larger guilds though, you'd need some serious solidarity to get through what could be a long rough patch and no guaranteed results.

I do like the idea though and it would be great that a guild (or even solo player) could maintain a store based on name instead of location. Kiosks for housing would be a good move in that direction with the new tours system. It would not interfere with normal trading but would provide a single location for repeat buyers.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 2

I mean, there will be always some one else who will take that spot. That is how it was designed in a 1st place. To force rotation. And I don't think it is the end of the world. There is TTC, right ? So it does not matter where the trading spot is. As long as it is base game, you should be fine.

Edit:
For a long time now, I had this feeling that hyper inflation was caused by trading guilds fighting over trading spots. No max cap on bids mean that prices are going up, as the "costs" of those bids are reflected in prices of stuff being sold. In other words: Buyers must pay more so that the guild would have cash for the bid. And since on average number of players did not increased and players all of the sudden weren't buying more (they were byung the same as usual), that "maximum income" was reached. Hence we see some guild failing to meet the "way too high" amout of cash for the bid and losing the spot. Another guild will come to that spot and eventually fail too.

System starts to self-regulate.

huskandhunger · August 2

I always felt their goods were overpriced good riddance

sarahthes · August 2

code65536 wrote: »

Unless a guild loses a bid, there is no way for them to know that they can no longer afford their spot.

All bids are secret, even after everything is done.

If a guild bids 10 million for a spot every single week and wins every single week, that doesn't mean that 10 million is what they need to keep bidding. It might be that the next highest bid is only 1 million and the guild could be winning using only 2 million bids. Or maybe there are no competing bids at all and the guild is basically flushing 10 million gold down the drain every week. Nobody has access to this information.

Of course, by publicly announcing that they're leaving, they're now inviting people to bid for that spot. But if they just quietly lowered their bids to something that they can afford, there's a fair chance that they could've remained in that spot. After all, if they are struggling to scrape together a weekly bid, then in all likelihood so will anyone else who might be hoping to snipe that spot from them.

I suspect that a lot of guilds that are having trouble "making ends meet" are way overbidding. Because, again, they don't know what their competition is bidding (or if there is even any competition at all), which naturally leads to risk-adverse GMs to overbid.

Basically, I think Ankle Biters effed up here. They should've lowered their bid to a comfortably sustainable level. And then see if they get kicked out of their spot. If they do, then, ok, they can announce to everyone that they're going to give up on Mournhold. But if they don't, then, hey, they had been overbidding and flushing gold down the drain all this time, and now they get to keep their spot without burning through so much gold. But by announcing their departure first, they've suddenly raised the price of that spot because they've essentially invited a bunch of guilds to fight over it. The only time a guild should announce that they're giving up is if a bid that's comfortable, sustainable, and affordable gets them kicked out of their spot.

I'm on my phone and too lazy to trim this quote but I agree with Code.

I run a smaller trade guild and have been reducing bids gradually over the past couple months, and reduced my bids by ~40% overall. I lost my trader a couple weeks ago and then won it back this week with a bid 300K higher than the losing bid, so I now know what the competition is probably bidding.

I'd like to drop my bid even further and will likely do so this week by bidding on a less desirable spot for cheaper in order to build war chest a little, so I have enough funds to do a few backup bids in the following weeks.

Jaraal · August 2

hiyde wrote: »

[To answer your question of why this is different, we've never seen sales plunge anywhere near this extent and it's resulting in demoralization of experienced traders. Yes, bids are down, but so is support because a lot of folks don't wanna sell items at 30% of what they were getting a couple months ago.

As a big ticket item seller, this is exactly my sentiment. No one is buying the rare items now, and after paying double the previous listing fees while listing the items at a significant reduction, and yet still not being able to move much of anything.... it's time to ride this out until (if) things get better. I still keep my slots filled with everyday type things, and even those aren't being bought.

I think the thing that has had the most impact is ZOS's doubling down on the player pain in one fell swoop. They could have reduced listing times and listing fees at the same time, so that users could have time to adapt to the new returned item mailbox spam without having to pay double the gold to do so. That one-two punch has combined to cripple the economy... and it could have been avoided.

Warhawke_80 · August 2

BlueRaven wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

If Trading guilds keep falling by the wayside ZoS will have no choice but to initiate a Auction House that anyone can buy and sell from without belonging to a guild....

I personally don't see that as a bad thing....

Simply due to sever demand that is not going to happen. And it makes zero sense RP wise.

This is bad because it is endangering a playstyle many players enjoy. If the discussion was about PvP guilds imploding, or trial guilds, the tone of this discussion may be different. ESO does not have that many players that we can be so snide about trade guild members having a hard time.

I mean I get it... the high demand might be a limiting factor, but it's important to consider the broader benefits an auction house could bring to the player community. Implementing an auction house system could streamline trading, making it more accessible and convenient for all players. This change could enhance the overall gaming experience by providing a more efficient and equitable marketplace. Which we don't have currently

Trashing a playstyle that many players enjoy is a valid concern, but the introduction of an auction house could actually support and expand trading opportunities. If this discussion were about other types of guilds, such as PvP or trial guilds, the tone might indeed be different. This highlights the need for a balanced approach that considers the benefits for various player groups.

ESO's player base is not so large that we can afford to ignore the potential advantages of an auction house, which could foster a more vibrant and active in-game economy....heck we already have groups of people that bypass the Guilds and trade just fine...I just think a auction house would provide a fairer and more accessible trading system, benefiting both trade guild members and the broader player community.

I hope that didn't come across as too snide...

Elsonso · August 2

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

As I see it…

1. Mail retention was cut in half, meaning that gold from sales and returned items that did not sell could get deleted if the player is extended away. As this is most likely to happen at times when the player was not expecting to be away, it is adding insult to injury at those times.

2. Trade listings are half as long, but the cost to list is the same. This means the potential for rare or expensive items to not find a buyer and need to be relisted. See#1. Additional expense, additional pressure to list so things will sell, and more…

Basically, a couple of anti-QoL things. ZOS justifies it with business analysis numbers by talking about how long things go unsold. This is a case where the numbers look good, but little else.

As a former (long time ago) member of @hiyde’s guild, I would not be actively trading in this game, either. He is correct that new players who know no different will just accept this. ZOS seems to fall back on this reasoning a lot.

BlueRaven · August 2

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

snip

We have been through a thousand threads of this. And time and again it has been shown how the current system works out better for both buyers and sellers.

It appears the only people who want to go back to the antiquated system that wow and other older mmos use is that they simply do not wish to join a guild. While a valid complaint, I don’t feel it is worth flipping over the apple cart to accommodate them as having players in guilds increases player retention. So it is not in eso’s interest to give less reason to be in them.

So let’s not derail this thread any further. This thread about a particular trader guild that is dying. And I know from personal experience, 2 of my 4 guilds with traders (not necessarily trading guilds per se) have also stopped having traders since this update.

That is the issue.

Pevey · August 2

code65536 wrote: »

Unless a guild loses a bid, there is no way for them to know that they can no longer afford their spot.

All bids are secret, even after everything is done.

If a guild bids 10 million for a spot every single week and wins every single week, that doesn't mean that 10 million is what they need to keep bidding. It might be that the next highest bid is only 1 million and the guild could be winning using only 2 million bids. Or maybe there are no competing bids at all and the guild is basically flushing 10 million gold down the drain every week. Nobody has access to this information.

Of course, by publicly announcing that they're leaving, they're now inviting people to bid for that spot. But if they just quietly lowered their bids to something that they can afford, there's a fair chance that they could've remained in that spot. After all, if they are struggling to scrape together a weekly bid, then in all likelihood so will anyone else who might be hoping to snipe that spot from them.

I suspect that a lot of guilds that are having trouble "making ends meet" are way overbidding. Because, again, they don't know what their competition is bidding (or if there is even any competition at all), which naturally leads to risk-adverse GMs to overbid.

Basically, I think Ankle Biters effed up here. They should've lowered their bid to a comfortably sustainable level. And then see if they get kicked out of their spot. If they do, then, ok, they can announce to everyone that they're going to give up on Mournhold. But if they don't, then, hey, they had been overbidding and flushing gold down the drain all this time, and now they get to keep their spot without burning through so much gold. But by announcing their departure first, they've suddenly raised the price of that spot because they've essentially invited a bunch of guilds to fight over it. The only time a guild should announce that they're giving up is if a bid that's comfortable, sustainable, and affordable gets them kicked out of their spot.

I think there is a good general point here about the wisdom of lowering bids. But there is more context I think with what AB is doing. I've known the group that runs AB for a while. They've been running trade guilds since ZOS implemented them. Before AB, they ran a different trade guild. They are very sharp and know what they're doing.

The blind bidding you describe was much more the case before multi-bidding was implemented a few years ago. Multi-bidding allowed bidders to see how little some top guilds were actually paying for their spots. That was the point when bids really started escalating, as many guild leaders predicted they would. With multi-bidding, you can suss out the overall market price for that city by bidding on multiple spots in the same city, with bids at different price points. Doing this month after month allows you to collect a lot of data, and they do analyze it. This is very different from the way things used to be when you could only bid on a single spot. There are more guilds that want top spots than there are spots, so the price just went up and up relentlessly. There is even speculation that some guilds get/were getting their gold for bids from shady means, but I don't have any proof of this.

Running a trade guild that consistently gets a spot in a top location is relentless and exhausting. And there are small groups of people for each trade guild who do this week after week after week. I think the market plays into it, but there were likely a lot of factors involved in taking a slightly more casual approach. This is just my speculation. In any case, they did the right thing and were very upfront with their guild members to let them know so that they could gauge their contributions accordingly and adjust expectations about trading locations.

PDarkBHood · August 2

BlueRaven wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

snip

2 of my 4 guilds with traders (not necessarily trading guilds per se) have also stopped having traders since this update.

Sounds like a protest vote scenario. To the remaining trader guilds, please lower your prices. Some of those prices are still way too high. Again, very happy about the market correction, and if a few guilds fold, then so be it!

hiyde · August 2

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Sounds like a protest vote scenario. To the remaining trader guilds, please lower your prices. Some of those prices are still way too high. Again, very happy about the market correction, and if a few guilds fold, then so be it!

Guilds do not set prices of items, members do. I can't imagine the time & efforts it would take to enforce some sort of price controls on 500 members (or that a guild trying to do that would have 500 members lol).