PTS Update 43 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

_Ahala_

No but seriously, since we are changing arctic blast this patch, let’s bring its range up to 8m since this is the new standard for player based aoes. Range is currently outdated. Just buff some green balance ability to allow low health wardens to actually survive in pvp and call it a day

master_vanargand

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But honestly just would like an answer to your own statement. How did this change effect anything for Nightblade dominance in PvP? Can you please elaborate.

Nightblade dominance? You mean the nightblades with the shields that burst heal, free mobility with CC, and bonkers ranged burst damage?

Nevermind, that's Magsorc. The current overloaded problem class that can survive by spamming one button and do the high end of any other classes point-blank limited burst from range.

They don't even have to announce themselves with curse, but they like to claim that using it is a huge draw back. Really, it is like that. Add up the numbers for force pulse, crystal weapon, and power overload then multiply the number of numbers by 330 (? set). That's how much damage a mag sorc can do almost every second, from downtown, if they want to.

Wanna make it a beeeeeg burst that you can do every other second? Crushing weapon>power overload>frag. That is basically the BFG from quake.

And sure, you can claim that a person focused on you will dodge and block just like how it is for anyone on any other class. The difference is sorc is the one class that absolutely does not have to be standing on top of their enemy to do their damage, and can just spam their damage over and over until they eventually win the stamina game.

Oh please. Magsorcs and Nightblades are both overtuned right now. Both classes have nigh infinite sustain, great escape tools, way too much damage, and high mobility + survivability.

It's the difference between 7m and 28m (the 28m range can be extended even further with Battle spirits).
Magicka Sorcerer has no risk, but Nightblade does risk approaching 7m.
And Nightblade also can't have a large damage shield and a large burst heal at the same time skills.
This seems like a huge difference.

Twohothardware

tonyaccount wrote: »

As a player who only plays one character(which is a necro) the necro changes are largely awesome and I'm happy with them. But now that we are at finally and it probably takes a while I would propose the following changes:

1. As others have mentioned, moving the Major Sorcery/Brutality from Skeletal Mage to Grave Lord's Sacrifice would make it more accessible for PvP without really having impact on PvE. Skeletal Mage is quite bad in PvP and necros desperately need the extra slot to be somewhat competitive.

2. Make the Major Sorcery/Brutality/Prophecy/Savagery work on both bars, allowing them to be slotted on backbar if necessary. Again a nice QOL change that adds a little bit of flexibility.

3. Give Necro a respectable CC. I would suggest Empowering Grasp stunning anything that it hits, up to a maximum of 2 players, prioritizing closer targets. It is quite difficult to line up against a distant target, but when used well would do a good job.

4. Make the Avid Boneyard morph purely selfish and buff its size from 6m to 8m. Change the synergy damage back to pre-nerf damage a few patches ago(slight buff), and change the tooltip to "You or an ally standing in the graveyard can activate the Grave Robber Synergy, dealing X Frost Damage to enemies in the area and healing for the damage done." This will be useful in both PvP and PvE, giving you a reliable burst synergy and a heal that others can't steal. A unique and fun interaction that the game needs more of.

5. Buff the Skeletal Mage to a viable state and make it attack the target your Blastbones/heavy attack hits. Since U35 this ability has just been low impact and necro could use a PvE damage buff. This is the ability to buff.

All of these are solid recommendations.

For the last 5 years not a single person has been intentionally running Skeletal Mage on Necro in PvP so to tie the largest most important Major buff to that skill is not really helping the class. Skeletal Mage does next to no damage to players in PvP and is a wasted skill slot.

Put Major Brutality/Sorcery on a different widely used skill like Blastbones so that whether you’re in PvE or PvP your most important buff is on a skill everyone uses.

CameraBeardThePirate

master_vanargand wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But honestly just would like an answer to your own statement. How did this change effect anything for Nightblade dominance in PvP? Can you please elaborate.

Nightblade dominance? You mean the nightblades with the shields that burst heal, free mobility with CC, and bonkers ranged burst damage?

Nevermind, that's Magsorc. The current overloaded problem class that can survive by spamming one button and do the high end of any other classes point-blank limited burst from range.

They don't even have to announce themselves with curse, but they like to claim that using it is a huge draw back. Really, it is like that. Add up the numbers for force pulse, crystal weapon, and power overload then multiply the number of numbers by 330 (? set). That's how much damage a mag sorc can do almost every second, from downtown, if they want to.

Wanna make it a beeeeeg burst that you can do every other second? Crushing weapon>power overload>frag. That is basically the BFG from quake.

And sure, you can claim that a person focused on you will dodge and block just like how it is for anyone on any other class. The difference is sorc is the one class that absolutely does not have to be standing on top of their enemy to do their damage, and can just spam their damage over and over until they eventually win the stamina game.

Oh please. Magsorcs and Nightblades are both overtuned right now. Both classes have nigh infinite sustain, great escape tools, way too much damage, and high mobility + survivability.

It's the difference between 7m and 28m (the 28m range can be extended even further with Battle spirits).
Magicka Sorcerer has no risk, but Nightblade does risk approaching 7m.
And Nightblade also can't have a large damage shield and a large burst heal at the same time skills.
This seems like a huge difference.

Nightblades can also build from range, just as effectively too. NB range gankers are all over Cyrodiil right now.

CameraBeardThePirate

Twohothardware wrote: »

tonyaccount wrote: »

As a player who only plays one character(which is a necro) the necro changes are largely awesome and I'm happy with them. But now that we are at finally and it probably takes a while I would propose the following changes:

1. As others have mentioned, moving the Major Sorcery/Brutality from Skeletal Mage to Grave Lord's Sacrifice would make it more accessible for PvP without really having impact on PvE. Skeletal Mage is quite bad in PvP and necros desperately need the extra slot to be somewhat competitive.

2. Make the Major Sorcery/Brutality/Prophecy/Savagery work on both bars, allowing them to be slotted on backbar if necessary. Again a nice QOL change that adds a little bit of flexibility.

3. Give Necro a respectable CC. I would suggest Empowering Grasp stunning anything that it hits, up to a maximum of 2 players, prioritizing closer targets. It is quite difficult to line up against a distant target, but when used well would do a good job.

4. Make the Avid Boneyard morph purely selfish and buff its size from 6m to 8m. Change the synergy damage back to pre-nerf damage a few patches ago(slight buff), and change the tooltip to "You or an ally standing in the graveyard can activate the Grave Robber Synergy, dealing X Frost Damage to enemies in the area and healing for the damage done." This will be useful in both PvP and PvE, giving you a reliable burst synergy and a heal that others can't steal. A unique and fun interaction that the game needs more of.

5. Buff the Skeletal Mage to a viable state and make it attack the target your Blastbones/heavy attack hits. Since U35 this ability has just been low impact and necro could use a PvE damage buff. This is the ability to buff.

All of these are solid recommendations.

For the last 5 years not a single person has been intentionally running Skeletal Mage on Necro in PvP so to tie the largest most important Major buff to that skill is not really helping the class. Skeletal Mage does next to no damage to players in PvP and is a wasted skill slot.

Put Major Brutality/Sorcery on a different widely used skill like Blastbones so that whether you’re in PvE or PvP your most important buff is on a skill everyone uses.

Or just buff the Skeletal Mage. They nerfed it for literally no reason in U35.

StShoot

master_vanargand wrote: »

It's the difference between 7m and 28m (the 28m range can be extended even further with Battle spirits).
Magicka Sorcerer has no risk, but Nightblade does risk approaching 7m.
And Nightblade also can't have a large damage shield and a large burst heal at the same time skills.
This seems like a huge difference.

last time i checked the burst of the blade was not restricted to 7 meters and the burstheal of the blade was among the strongest heals in the game xD

Twohothardware

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

tonyaccount wrote: »

As a player who only plays one character(which is a necro) the necro changes are largely awesome and I'm happy with them. But now that we are at finally and it probably takes a while I would propose the following changes:

1. As others have mentioned, moving the Major Sorcery/Brutality from Skeletal Mage to Grave Lord's Sacrifice would make it more accessible for PvP without really having impact on PvE. Skeletal Mage is quite bad in PvP and necros desperately need the extra slot to be somewhat competitive.

2. Make the Major Sorcery/Brutality/Prophecy/Savagery work on both bars, allowing them to be slotted on backbar if necessary. Again a nice QOL change that adds a little bit of flexibility.

3. Give Necro a respectable CC. I would suggest Empowering Grasp stunning anything that it hits, up to a maximum of 2 players, prioritizing closer targets. It is quite difficult to line up against a distant target, but when used well would do a good job.

4. Make the Avid Boneyard morph purely selfish and buff its size from 6m to 8m. Change the synergy damage back to pre-nerf damage a few patches ago(slight buff), and change the tooltip to "You or an ally standing in the graveyard can activate the Grave Robber Synergy, dealing X Frost Damage to enemies in the area and healing for the damage done." This will be useful in both PvP and PvE, giving you a reliable burst synergy and a heal that others can't steal. A unique and fun interaction that the game needs more of.

5. Buff the Skeletal Mage to a viable state and make it attack the target your Blastbones/heavy attack hits. Since U35 this ability has just been low impact and necro could use a PvE damage buff. This is the ability to buff.

All of these are solid recommendations.

For the last 5 years not a single person has been intentionally running Skeletal Mage on Necro in PvP so to tie the largest most important Major buff to that skill is not really helping the class. Skeletal Mage does next to no damage to players in PvP and is a wasted skill slot.

Put Major Brutality/Sorcery on a different widely used skill like Blastbones so that whether you’re in PvE or PvP your most important buff is on a skill everyone uses.

Or just buff the Skeletal Mage. They nerfed it for literally no reason in U35.

They would need to undo the U35 nerf and then buff it on top of that. Because Necros weren’t using Skeletal Mage in PvP even before U35.

Jsmalls

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But honestly just would like an answer to your own statement. How did this change effect anything for Nightblade dominance in PvP? Can you please elaborate.

Nightblade dominance? You mean the nightblades with the shields that burst heal, free mobility with CC, and bonkers ranged burst damage?

Nevermind, that's Magsorc. The current overloaded problem class that can survive by spamming one button and do the high end of any other classes point-blank limited burst from range.

They don't even have to announce themselves with curse, but they like to claim that using it is a huge draw back. Really, it is like that. Add up the numbers for force pulse, crystal weapon, and power overload then multiply the number of numbers by 330 (? set). That's how much damage a mag sorc can do almost every second, from downtown, if they want to.

Wanna make it a beeeeeg burst that you can do every other second? Crushing weapon>power overload>frag. That is basically the BFG from quake.

And sure, you can claim that a person focused on you will dodge and block just like how it is for anyone on any other class. The difference is sorc is the one class that absolutely does not have to be standing on top of their enemy to do their damage, and can just spam their damage over and over until they eventually win the stamina game.

@DrNukenstein

Sorcs are their own issue. This comment was regarding a statement directly said from balance patch notes regarding a S tier PvP class (Nightblades).

I encourage you to inquire regarding your concern of other classes

For reference there was a typo in the initial patch notes that had inconsistencies regarding statements referring to taking away some of Sorcs lethality from burst. I inquired regarding this because what was said and what was included in the patch notes didn't line up.

This is another example of what was said in the patch notes as a target of theirs not being met in the actual patch notes so I am reaching out for clarification.

DrNukenstein

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Oh please. Magsorcs and Nightblades are both overtuned right now. Both classes have nigh infinite sustain, great escape tools, way too much damage, and high mobility + survivability.

There's probably no other (multiplayer) game where "Rogue" is also mad tanky and has reset on demand healing. That's pretty cracked, and has been since the changes to offering and more recently siphoning/leeching strikes. If ZOS asked me personally how to reign PvPNB in it would be to add significant ramping costs to those two skills, and revert the minor expedition on concealed to just be while sneaking/invis.

There's DEFINITELY no other (multiplayer) game where "mage" can just face tank everything, do peak damage from long range, and teleport whenever they want as long as they space it out right. Somehow in this game, the one game where it is like that, it's not enough for the Harry Potter cosplay crowd. They still want more, and more nerfs for other classes.

DrNukenstein

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Nightblades can also build from range, just as effectively too. NB range gankers are all over Cyrodiil right now.

Ranged blades do like 2/3's the damage of melee blades and don't deliver a stun in their combo, but also don't have to deal with the jankiness of cloak in close range. It's popularity is because it's a lot easier to do though significantly less effective. Most classes can make a similar trade off, but it's best on nightblade because of how effective cloak is at range.

The thing about sorc is they do like massive damage at range, and that ranged damage is their standard. However, the melee sorc can eek out about 25% more damage at the cost of a way riskier schizo-melee playstyle and that historically does outdamage everyone else in melee.

master_vanargand

On the one hand you criticize "combo of Incapacitating Strike (7m range)", and on the other you argue that the Nightblade is the 28m strong ranged attacker.
After all, their only purpose is to criticize?

DrNukenstein

Jsmalls wrote: »

I encourage you to inquire regarding your concern of other classes

Here are some of my concerns for the less loved classes:

-DK is struggling since the corrosive nerf. I think making all class skills generate whip stacks is just what they need to get back to where they oughta be.

-Backlash is basically a murdered skill at this point, and jabs needs help. Make the animation for jabs faster, make the "closest target" portion single target targetted damage so it isn't affected by evasion and is stickier. Rework backlash to be a charges based burst skill for ease of use and transparency. something like a death mark that explodes for a certain amount of damage when you hit them with something else. build stacks>cast on the target>cast something else>boom!

-The health threshold idea getting workshopped on Warden is going to be interesting to see implemented on other classes.

-Necromancer finally getting access to Major Brutality in it's kit is a big deal, but isn't enough to give the class a coherent identity. I think they're onto something with a self buff version of blast bones, maybe make skeletal archer or arcanist a similar self cast buff? I think it's a cool trope when masters of the death can absorb their minions for personal power, as if their minions are an assigned amount of their power over death.

-The long channeled beams are what's holding arcanist back from being a killer. I think moving tentacular dread towards being an instant burst alternative to the beam could be good design.

All in all, one of the better patches of the past 2 years.

CalamityCat

As a warden who plays both PvE and PvP, I've held off on creating new warden builds until I saw what we were getting with these changes. I'm curious if wardens are getting yet more significant changes in the next few updates or if this is it? I feel wardens will still be heavily reliant on the frost mage side for damage, and could use some more viable alternatives.

If piercing cold is tying damage output to health, I think it would be fairer to do similar with other powerful classes and not just the frost wardens. I feel like I'll either have to let my PvP guild down with lacklustre dps, or stay as a frost magden below 30k health and regularly blow my group up!

In PvE, I'm guessing a group member could buff me above the 30k health and drop my damage? I'm tempted to switch that build too. But again, I'll probably do less dps and feel I'm being carried by groups. Which links back to my point above about alternatives to the frosty magden.

With arctic blast, I think someone needs to decide whether it heals or damages instead of making it switch based on what's around the player. Especially with the delay. It makes polar wind more attractive, at least until that is also nerfed.

Destai

As a longtime Warden main, I'm baffled by the changes to Wardens. You guys put in so much effort in the last two years to solidify their identity as a frost mage. Now, it feels like you're going back on that work. Why?

Skjaldbjorn

Destai wrote: »

As a longtime Warden main, I'm baffled by the changes to Wardens. You guys put in so much effort in the last two years to solidify their identity as a frost mage. Now, it feels like you're going back on that work. Why?

My guess would be because the modification necessary to make Frost Staff DPS a thing killed any other iteration of Warden that wasn't a support. That's not good design.

Tommy_The_Gun

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It can also now be blocked, which is a huge nerf to the ability

- In PvE it is a huge buff as mobs don't tend to use "block".
- In PvP it is a trade-off, rather than a flat nerf:

You are getting full dmg instead of half damage for every other player near the "cursed one", but the damage can now be blocked, which in my opinion is actually a buff. If some one will decide to block it, then they will kinda "CC themselves" as you move significantly slower when you block. On top of that one needs to answer the question - how often will it be blocked. Also... 50% dmg buff is actually significant as it pretty much what battle spirit reduces.

I think it is an overall buff.

Alondil

As for the Undeath Passive I like the shrinking of the DR that is a good change. Moving it to stage 1 makes sense due to the power nerf however this also removes the cost for the DR benefit. What i would recommend instead is changing it from the 10% independent damage reduction based on missing health to permanent Major Protection at all times and leave it at stage 3. This will make it a bit stronger as its always up justifying the stage 3 spot but maintain the balance attempt being made. Also it will give players the choice of being a vamp in order to get the buff or choose another source of major prot and not bother with vamp if they don't want to.

tsaescishoeshiner

Ice staff is still fine on Warden DPS, it's just that other weapons were buffed. We went from +12% damage for ice staff wardens to +8% damage for all DPS.

So players who enjoy ice staff haven't lost much. Frost Reach, Master's Ice Staff, and Chilled Procs all still work.

The fact that other weapons might deal more doesn't prevent frost warden from doing just about everything they do on Live.

It's impossible for them to make every weapon the best over all others, so I think it's better to make more build options viable.

Skjaldbjorn

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Ice staff is still fine on Warden DPS, it's just that other weapons were buffed. We went from +12% damage for ice staff wardens to +8% damage for all DPS.

So players who enjoy ice staff haven't lost much. Frost Reach, Master's Ice Staff, and Chilled Procs all still work.

The fact that other weapons might deal more doesn't prevent frost warden from doing just about everything they do on Live.

It's impossible for them to make every weapon the best over all others, so I think it's better to make more build options viable.

Logic and reason on the ESO forums? Yikes. You should run.

Zeeejay

Love seeing non-pet sorcerer get some attention this year, it's my favorite playstyle in PvE and PvP, however, in my feedback I will only be addressing PvE.

One major issue is that despite the buffs non-pet sorcerer is receiving, the ultimate ability power discrepancy between pet and non-pet setups continues to be an issue with viability in group endgame content. The storm atronach ultimate simply has so much power and utility packed into it that non-pet sorcerer does not have any ultimate that can come close to either the power aspect or the utility aspect of it.

It would be great if passives/sets were changed to exclusively affect permanent summons or if the negate/overload ultimates received some power/utility boost for PvE solo & group play.

MashmalloMan

Regarding Warden changes I like the general direction taken this patch, but it's half baked. Stam warden has been forgotten in an effort to make frost staff warden viable. Always 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

The idea of class passives being attached to a weapon never made any sense, but it was necessary to prop up frost staff because it lacks damage passives. Look at sorc and dk, they lean more towards the shock and fire staves, but nothing in their kit specifically states the requirement.

Ice staff needs the same warden treatment relating to a health threshold that gives tank or DPS based passives. This is brilliant and fixes a long standing issue. Although, 30k is way too little, it should be at least 35-40k. A pve tank can easily hit this, pretty much all PVP builds use at least 30k hp as a baseline so it's not much of a choice. The only place you have below 30k is pve dps.

Changes like these are needed for destro staff:

• "When health above 40,000 increase block mitigation and reduce block cost. When health below 40,000 increase crit chance by 6%."
• "When health above 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks grant a damage shield. When health below 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks spawn an ice spike that deals x damage and slows nearby enemies."
• "Chilled status effect now always applies minor brittle without the need of an ice staff equiped." Since ice staff now has its own damage passives, it no longer requires a unique debuff that can now be obtained by many other sources like sets and arcanist.

Skjaldbjorn

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Regarding Warden changes I like the general direction taken this patch, but it's half baked. Stam warden has been forgotten in an effort to make frost staff warden viable. Always 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

The idea of class passives being attached to a weapon never made any sense, but it was necessary to prop up frost staff because it lacks damage passives. Look at sorc and dk, they lean more towards the shock and fire staves, but nothing in their kit specifically states the requirement.

Ice staff needs the same warden treatment relating to a health threshold that gives tank or DPS based passives. This is brilliant and fixes a long standing issue. Although, 30k is way too little, it should be at least 35-40k. A pve tank can easily hit this, pretty much all PVP builds use at least 30k hp as a baseline so it's not much of a choice. The only place you have below 30k is pve dps.

Changes like these are needed for destro staff:

• "When health above 40,000 increase block mitigation and reduce block cost. When health below 40,000 increase crit chance by 6%."
• "When health above 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks grant a damage shield. When health below 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks spawn an ice spike that deals x damage and slows nearby enemies."
• "Chilled status effect now always applies minor brittle without the need of an ice staff equiped." Since ice staff now has its own damage passives, it no longer requires a unique debuff that can now be obtained by many other sources like sets and arcanist.

Gonna disagree with you on a few points.

1. Staves absolutely should not have a crit passive until the 2h line does.

2. 40k is too high for PVE tanks. Many tanks find the sweet spot to be in the 35-38k range depending on content. ~32k is about right.

3. Stam Warden is directly helped with this change, so not sure why you're saying they're forgotten. Unless you mean by the former iteration that force ice staves, then I'd agree obviously.

BasP

Some Necromancer feedback from a casual solo PvEer

I started playing with my Stamcro again about a week ago for the first time in ages and leveled some skill lines and morphs I hadn't used yet in preparation for these patch notes, hoping for some good changes. And I must say that I am pleasantly surprised, because the class received more buffs than I expected.

Some thoughts on the changes that interest me most:

• Unnerving Boneyard: It's an excellent change. I was hoping that Major Breach would stick to targets that have left the area for a couple of seconds, similar to Razor Caltrops, and the addition of Minor Vulnerability is the cherry on top.
• Major Brutality/ Sorcerery: It's great that this Major Buff is finally added to the Necromancer's kit and I personally don't mind that it's added to the Skeletal Mage. However, if it was added to Blastbones instead so that it'd be more useful for PVPers that would also be cool.
• Major Savagery/ Prophecy: I honestly didn't expect ZOS to add both this Major Buff and Brut/Sorc to the Necromancer's kit, so it is a nice bonus.
• Bone Armor: The addition of Minor Resolve is nice, as is the fact that Summoner's Armor now lasts 30 seconds. And now that the Major Buffs mentioned above are added to Necromancer skills I already use, I might even have a slot for this skill.

So I definitely like some of the proposed Necromancer buffs. But I still feel that the class could use something more. For reference, I put together a simple build on the previous PTS which consistently did around 49K DPS on the 6M dummy and the same build - with various other skills in place of Camo Hunter and Degen - did roughly the same DPS on the new PTS. Granted, that's also due to me being an average player and messing up some of the rotations, but it would have been nice to see those numbers go up a little bit in a patch with quite a few Necromancer buffs.

Therefore, I think that it would help the class (or my build at least ) if:

• Blighted Blastbones would deal additional damage for each second it spends chasing its target, similar to the old Stalking Blastbones.
• The Skeletal Mage would act as a DOT that benefited from the Rapid Rot passive, as the Necromancer doesn't really have a lot of DOTs in its class kit. If that is hard to accomplish mechanically though, perhaps the damage of the skill could just be increased by 10% to mimic the Rapid Rot buff?
• The 3% damage done buff from Shocking Siphon was changed into 5%, which would make it similar to the 5% Arcanists get from Abyssal Impact and the 5% Wardens get from Betty Netch. It would also be nice if that damage buff would be active while Siphon was slotted on either bar.
• On that same note, perhaps the 3% buffs from Bitter Harvest and Hexproof could then also be changed into 5% and receive the 'while slotted on either bar' treatment as well? (I'm actually not sure if that is warranted, as I don't use those skills.)

Durham

Not very happy with the Warden changes. From a PVP perspective polar over performs. Arctic blast did not. I would rather make polar do what has been suggested and leave arctic blast as is.

Please leave the damage passive as is or just reduce it to 10%. This is a drastic change that no one is really asking for.

Skjaldbjorn

Durham wrote: »

Please leave the damage passive as is or just reduce it to 10%. This is a drastic change that no one is really asking for.

Uh...all three of us end-game PVE DPS Wardens have been asking for it since the initial implementation. Even many of the frost staff loving Wardens thought the change was horrendous.

Durham

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Regarding Warden changes I like the general direction taken this patch, but it's half baked. Stam warden has been forgotten in an effort to make frost staff warden viable. Always 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

The idea of class passives being attached to a weapon never made any sense, but it was necessary to prop up frost staff because it lacks damage passives. Look at sorc and dk, they lean more towards the shock and fire staves, but nothing in their kit specifically states the requirement.

Ice staff needs the same warden treatment relating to a health threshold that gives tank or DPS based passives. This is brilliant and fixes a long standing issue. Although, 30k is way too little, it should be at least 35-40k. A pve tank can easily hit this, pretty much all PVP builds use at least 30k hp as a baseline so it's not much of a choice. The only place you have below 30k is pve dps.

Changes like these are needed for destro staff:

• "When health above 40,000 increase block mitigation and reduce block cost. When health below 40,000 increase crit chance by 6%."
• "When health above 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks grant a damage shield. When health below 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks spawn an ice spike that deals x damage and slows nearby enemies."
• "Chilled status effect now always applies minor brittle without the need of an ice staff equiped." Since ice staff now has its own damage passives, it no longer requires a unique debuff that can now be obtained by many other sources like sets and arcanist.

Gonna disagree with you on a few points.

1. Staves absolutely should not have a crit passive until the 2h line does.

2. 40k is too high for PVE tanks. Many tanks find the sweet spot to be in the 35-38k range depending on content. ~32k is about right.

3. Stam Warden is directly helped with this change, so not sure why you're saying they're forgotten. Unless you mean by the former iteration that force ice staves, then I'd agree obviously.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Regarding Warden changes I like the general direction taken this patch, but it's half baked. Stam warden has been forgotten in an effort to make frost staff warden viable. Always 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

The idea of class passives being attached to a weapon never made any sense, but it was necessary to prop up frost staff because it lacks damage passives. Look at sorc and dk, they lean more towards the shock and fire staves, but nothing in their kit specifically states the requirement.

Ice staff needs the same warden treatment relating to a health threshold that gives tank or DPS based passives. This is brilliant and fixes a long standing issue. Although, 30k is way too little, it should be at least 35-40k. A pve tank can easily hit this, pretty much all PVP builds use at least 30k hp as a baseline so it's not much of a choice. The only place you have below 30k is pve dps.

Changes like these are needed for destro staff:

• "When health above 40,000 increase block mitigation and reduce block cost. When health below 40,000 increase crit chance by 6%."
• "When health above 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks grant a damage shield. When health below 40,000 fully charged heavy attacks spawn an ice spike that deals x damage and slows nearby enemies."
• "Chilled status effect now always applies minor brittle without the need of an ice staff equiped." Since ice staff now has its own damage passives, it no longer requires a unique debuff that can now be obtained by many other sources like sets and arcanist.

Gonna disagree with you on a few points.

1. Staves absolutely should not have a crit passive until the 2h line does.

2. 40k is too high for PVE tanks. Many tanks find the sweet spot to be in the 35-38k range depending on content. ~32k is about right.

3. Stam Warden is directly helped with this change, so not sure why you're saying they're forgotten. Unless you mean by the former iteration that force ice staves, then I'd agree obviously.

Tell me how a Stan warden is helped? This is a nerf to Stam and Magicka in PVP.

Skjaldbjorn

Durham wrote: »

Not very happy with the Warden changes. From a PVP perspective polar over performs. Arctic blast did not. I would rather make polar do what has been suggested and leave arctic blast as is.

Please leave the damage passive as is or just reduce it to 10%. This is a drastic change that no one is really asking for.

Just for context, imagine if they treated the other classes with the absurd idea they gave Warden.

Necros only get their damage passive when wielding a 2h weapon.

DKs only get theirs when wielding a fire staff.

Templar only gets theirs when dual wielding.

NB only gets theirs when using a bow.

Sorcs only get theirs when using a lightning staff.

This was terrible design from jump. No one wants this, and no one should. Warden shouldn't be punished with it.

Skjaldbjorn

Durham wrote: »

Tell me how a Stan warden is helped? This is a nerf to Stam and Magicka in PVP.

PVE Stamden was buffed. Big. Which they desperately needed. I don't PVP. Warden has been viable in PVP basically since release. PVE Warden DPS has been viable in like four patches since release. Time for PVP mains to take one for the team. We PVE DPS have been suffering for way, way too long.

BananaBender

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

As a longtime Warden main, I'm baffled by the changes to Wardens. You guys put in so much effort in the last two years to solidify their identity as a frost mage. Now, it feels like you're going back on that work. Why?

My guess would be because the modification necessary to make Frost Staff DPS a thing killed any other iteration of Warden that wasn't a support. That's not good design.

Making warden just another class that fully relies on Rapid Strikes and Maelstrom 2h isn't good design either. As of this patch I feel like warden has no identity what so ever. It feels like a necromancer with green skills and less damage. Frost damage was the only thing making warden stand out even in the slightest

Skjaldbjorn

BananaBender wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

As a longtime Warden main, I'm baffled by the changes to Wardens. You guys put in so much effort in the last two years to solidify their identity as a frost mage. Now, it feels like you're going back on that work. Why?

My guess would be because the modification necessary to make Frost Staff DPS a thing killed any other iteration of Warden that wasn't a support. That's not good design.

Making warden just another class that fully relies on Rapid Strikes and Maelstrom 2h isn't good design either. As of this patch I feel like warden has no identity what so ever. It feels like a necromancer with green skills and less damage. Frost damage was the only thing making warden stand out even in the slightest

But...they still use frost damage. Winter's, Arctic Blast, frozen enchant, etc are all still very good. Using a different weapon doesn't really make you "unique", because tons of weapons are used in various content. Bow/bow is hella good on Taleria. If a Warden uses bow/bow for Taleria, are they suddenly unique?