PTS Update 43 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

Smexykins

Glad I leveled up plenty of other classes lately, RIP my main Magden. These changes completely kill any interest I had in playing them and it's really sad they got to live remotely close to this state.

The even sadder part is that most of the other shifts are good (except vampire I suppose) but the lowest performing DD gets even worse! And for what reason?! Polar Wind was clearly the issue, too! It has been stated multiple times to be the main frustration for PvP and now what? Do we decide to nerf random Warden parts gain until they're happy? All I've heard is "polar wind" and "signature script" but let's just gut the survivability for PvE. Don't even get me started on re-nerfing Ice Staff DDs...

Stuck playing healer and nothing else until the end of time I suppose. So lame.

Keen

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Keen wrote: »

Just to add my two cents: making it so Arctic Blast doesn't heal if it hits an enemy just makes it so if you are surrounded you can't heal unless you have more than one heal slotted, which is pointless to me. I don't want to use Polar Wind, as I prefer the instant heal, even if it is overall weaker than the HOT. I don't do PvP, so this is purely from a PvE perspective. I love soloing content, so being able to be a sturdy DPS that can keep myself alive is imperative. I don't understand this change. You want players to play how they want, but then you remove things like the heal from Arctic Blast in an actual combat situation. So no, I HAVE to use Polar Wind, or die.

I'm not sure why you say you don't want to use Polar Wind because you want the instant heal... Polar Wind has an instant heal AND a HoT.

Because its a much lower heal, and the HoT is pretty useless when you are being pinged to death. It's fine for a healer build who has a few skills for that purpose, but not for a self-sustaining DPS. The extra damage and everything from AB is really great, plus its heal is stronger. I can just use that twice if needed and I'm almost full-healed. I would have to use PW 3 times at least for the same amount, which is awful for sustain and time.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Keen wrote: »

Just to add my two cents: making it so Arctic Blast doesn't heal if it hits an enemy just makes it so if you are surrounded you can't heal unless you have more than one heal slotted, which is pointless to me. I don't want to use Polar Wind, as I prefer the instant heal, even if it is overall weaker than the HOT. I don't do PvP, so this is purely from a PvE perspective. I love soloing content, so being able to be a sturdy DPS that can keep myself alive is imperative. I don't understand this change. You want players to play how they want, but then you remove things like the heal from Arctic Blast in an actual combat situation. So no, I HAVE to use Polar Wind, or die.

I'm not sure why you say you don't want to use Polar Wind because you want the instant heal... Polar Wind has an instant heal AND a HoT.

Because in PVE as a DPS, Arctic is a very good DPS skill that also doubled as sustain when it was needed. Losing that sustain does hurt, because we can't really afford to give up the DPS from it.

I feel like PvE suffers a lot because of issues with PvP. Though, I really don't see where the issue is with AB in PvP either.

FoJul

Smexykins wrote: »

Glad I leveled up plenty of other classes lately, RIP my main Magden. These changes completely kill any interest I had in playing them and it's really sad they got to live remotely close to this state.

The even sadder part is that most of the other shifts are good (except vampire I suppose) but the lowest performing DD gets even worse! And for what reason?! Polar Wind was clearly the issue, too! It has been stated multiple times to be the main frustration for PvP and now what? Do we decide to nerf random Warden parts gain until they're happy? All I've heard is "polar wind" and "signature script" but let's just gut the survivability for PvE. Don't even get me started on re-nerfing Ice Staff DDs...

Stuck playing healer and nothing else until the end of time I suppose. So lame.

Nightblade here, I feel the struggle. Imma only be a healer for pve purposes.

CP5

I just wanted to comment on the developer comments in the patch notes, because the are very interesting to me.

"In this pass, we're trying to better align the power dynamic between these morphs. Very early in development, Flail was actually used predominantly as an execute with much more potent scaling, but over time during the class's development, we reduced this function when Fatecarver came into being and took the spotlight. Originally, we kept this functionality to pay homage to that, but since both morphs added damage functionalities, it created a situation where one was always going to be better than the other. Rather than trying to have an arms race between the two, we've done more of a hard split, where Flail remains a generic "buff" morph that allows you to gain additional effects and contextual uses, while Dread more radically shifts how the ability is utilized. In addition to this, the increased drain of Crux that Dread asks of you wasn't as rewarding as we would have liked, so we're bumping up the reward for using it well."

I really don't think this 'split' actually addresses the problem with the morph choice. Maybe people will find an aoe execute useful in pvp, where evasion is likely very common, so most of its damage will be mitigated, but from a pve perspective dread is always going to be competing with beam, and flail outpaces runeblades by so much that it'll still always be used. So long as flail applies the ink debuff and builds crux, nothing else will be used. Will I use a scribed skill and put a lot of the scribed skill's power into generating a crux? Why bother, I'd be missing the ink debuff and would use flail to apply it and generate crux. Would I use runeblades? No, an aoe debuff that makes groups of enemies take more damage from beam is vastly superior. Until this is addressed, nothing will change on the pve side.

"In this pass, we're tweaking how this ability functions to reduce some of its raw power to do damage, crowd control, and heal all at once. Now, the ability can be used to deal the same total damage over its duration, with more damage focused on an up-front hit - granting the Warden a class-based area effect spammable that it previously lacked. Additionally, we're changing the healing to be a conditional requirement rather than a guarantee, so the ability can act as a heal when you back away from the fight, rather than outright removing it.It is our hope that these changes still help the Warden class have access to powerful tools from their kit, without the overwhelming power they enabled in PvP situations."

With the introduction of scribing, and this patch adding ice damage to more skills, there had already been plenty of talk about how bad it'll feel using this skill at all to heal. Who would ever depend on a healing skill that won't heal you the slightest if you accidentally poke an enemy? What use case was this morph over preforming in, I'm genuinely curious. Because as it is now I'm just glad I don't play my wardens often, because in most combat situations, if I need a heal it's likely because something is chasing me down, and praying for me to be far enough away to get the heal off isn't a situation I'm going to bother entertaining. I simply won't use it. If a heal is supposed to heal, then I want it to heal when I cast it, even if it requires hitting an enemy, but any hostile being to close making it so you get no healing? No, not going to bother with that.

"We're re-evaluating this passive to reduce the restrictions it places on builds, while simultaneously making sure we offer a tank-oriented bonus for the tanking-based skill line. In addition to this, we're ensuring the bonuses are less likely to inject offensive power in PvP scenarios, as the Warden is already consistently finding success at dealing damage while remaining tanky. The damage bonuses are less than the previous iteration of this passive since its significantly less restrictive to damage build paths, and the previous update also added more damage to their kit as well in form of Betty Netch."

I actually enjoyed my ice warden, used them a lot before while I still ran trials, but at present I might occasionally bring one of them into the archive, and guess what happens there? Easy max hp passive that you want to avoid one-shots, on a class that passively bumps their own max health by healing themselves. 30k is a value, that's for sure, but couldn't it be tied to something else? Like, when you get piercing cold stacks you get 7 of them, and for each piece of heavy armor on the stack gives 1-2% block mitigation, and every piece of light or medium armor would result in the stack giving 0.6-1.2% more damage? That way, a tank deliberately wearing heavy armor would get the blocking buff, and people who build squishier with lighter armors can reliably get the damage bonus? I don't know, this direction feels half-baked and seems like it will be re-addressed, then addressed again, and I feel just one solid solution would be better than a design that many players plainly stated would be frustrating to work around.

So in short, I have a class set (sorc) that I don't care to collect, and changes to many classes that feel like phase 1 ideas that we'll be stuck with for months until another pass is done. I don't know, I'll see how the new visions are, because nowhere online have I found a source that plainly states what they do, but the class changes just have me feeling, meh.

Tiphis

Thanks for the buffs to nb, I was hoping not to have to learn any other class to be competitive with nb and you guys keep making it better lol

Tinkerhorn

The loss of 15% mitigation from Undeath coupled with the removal of the cloak 'counters' is making cyro feeling pretty rubbish to play tonight to be honest.
Removing undeath hasn't dented cross healing or block healing either so...
Definitely a boon for those at the numerical advantage. I suppose we can all build tankier and tankier still.

Tiphis

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

The loss of 15% mitigation from Undeath coupled with the removal of the cloak 'counters' is making cyro feeling pretty rubbish to play tonight to be honest.
Removing undeath hasn't dented cross healing or block healing either so...
Definitely a boon for those at the numerical advantage. I suppose we can all build tankier and tankier still.

Just play a nb, it's not hard to do well with it

FoJul

Tiphis wrote: »

Thanks for the buffs to nb, I was hoping not to have to learn any other class to be competitive with nb and you guys keep making it better lol

Lmao with sorc and the new arrival of the DK class set, dk's are finna be back being the menace's they are.

Really, They are getting closer and closer to every class having atleast 1 playstyle that can be played. Which I think is their goal so they can say, Ight the games balanced, time for new content, swipe your cards peeps.

Its impossible to get 100% satisfactory rate in this community, because there is no split in PvP and PvE. Literally, it will never be satisfying enough for anyone.

It's funny how PvE'ers claim no one cares about PvP, until something in PvE gets nuked or removed because of PvP. Nightblade is only gonna get worse before it gets better in PvE.

I expect pyrebrand set to be nuked soon too.

Tiphis

FoJul wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Thanks for the buffs to nb, I was hoping not to have to learn any other class to be competitive with nb and you guys keep making it better lol

Lmao with sorc and the new arrival of the DK class set, dk's are finna be back being the menace's they are.

Really, They are getting closer and closer to every class having atleast 1 playstyle that can be played. Which I think is their goal so they can say, Ight the games balanced, time for new content, swipe your cards peeps.

Its impossible to get 100% satisfactory rate in this community, because there is no split in PvP and PvE. Literally, it will never be satisfying enough for anyone.

It's funny how PvE'ers claim no one cares about PvP, until something in PvE gets nuked or removed because of PvP. Nightblade is only gonna get worse before it gets better in PvE.

I expect pyrebrand set to be nuked soon too.

Eh they still have nothing on nb's. Cloak is the single best skill by a mile if you are good with it.

Unfortunately templars and necros are only in the game for the memes.

YandereGirlfriend

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

The loss of 15% mitigation from Undeath coupled with the removal of the cloak 'counters' is making cyro feeling pretty rubbish to play tonight to be honest.
Removing undeath hasn't dented cross healing or block healing either so...
Definitely a boon for those at the numerical advantage. I suppose we can all build tankier and tankier still.

It's the other way around. Ambient free tankiness like Undeath benefits the side with the bigger numbers.

I feel squishier for sure but, by contrast, am loving the change.

MindOfTheSwarm

The change to Arctic Blast was not a wise decision in my opinion. Frost builds have Impulse for an AoE spammable. It was unnecessary to change Arctic Blast. It should stay as an aura DoT. That’s the flavor of the skill. Front loading its damage is going to negate any point in leaving it running over its duration. The whole Ice Mage vibe that Warden’s have going is maximising Chill uptime through their DoT’s. Watering this down, ruins the flavor of the playstyle.

A better move would have been to simply remove its stun altogether and increase its Chill chance. Alternatively, have it deal increased damage to targets already Chilled.

As for the healing, why not have it just work as a DoT but the healing increases over time. To incentivise it be left for the full duration rather than spammed.

With regards to a stun, this is problematic but perhaps there is a ranged option out of class that could fill the role. Or perhaps Frozen Slab could function as an on demand stun with the alternative remaining as a deflection based option.

SkaiFaith

PLEASE, next patch DON'T nerf the healing/scaling of Polar Wind as requested from other players.

As I already said, I could get that MAYBE ONLY the healing to the second player, not myself, could be scaled back a bit...

I've been able to solo Tragan today (the Wandering Minotaur Boss) only thanks to a 44.2K Health build and spamming Polar Wind with its actual healing/scaling. I'll already get nerfed next Wednesday losing damage due to Piercing Cold health requirements (console). I don't want to also lose the only reason I'm able to survive (That fight gets really hard with incoming damage!)

PLEASE, I'm thoroughly enjoying the state I'm in now, being able to solo through arc 4 of IA and many Bosses and Dungeons, content I don't want to lose access to because I'd be dead in no time.
Also, true I can survive longer in PvP, but skilled players crash me anyway in 1v1, so I definitely don't think I'm OP, and neither is Polar Wind.

For full disclosure: I talk from an impaired, Oakensoul, Warden main, mostly PvE, occasionally PvP point of view.

Thanks...

Theist_VII

Polar Wind needs to hit the cutting block.

While I get that you enjoy it, @SkaiFaith there are people taking full advantage of the off-heal, running two Wardens in duo groups for PvP to become unkillable. No other skill provides such free off-healing without any investment.

ESO_Nightingale

Joy_Division wrote: »

@FoJul - Top 100 per Alliance can be seen under the Leaderboards tab. Not the Alliance War tab; that shows a much smaller amount.

@Zabagad
Joy not Joe

Yes, 10 updates over 2 platforms with 4 servers each is most certainly better. You're probably the only person who has such data, so we do with what we have :P

Thank you for collecting the data and explaining the methodology to make the point clear: there are way more Nightblades than Wardens and DKs, while probably a little more than Sorcerers.

I suspect the order for 43 will be the same, except for Necro moving up one relegating Arcanist to the bottom

Who's Joe?

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The change to Arctic Blast was not a wise decision in my opinion. Frost builds have Impulse for an AoE spammable. It was unnecessary to change Arctic Blast. It should stay as an aura DoT. That’s the flavor of the skill. Front loading its damage is going to negate any point in leaving it running over its duration. The whole Ice Mage vibe that Warden’s have going is maximising Chill uptime through their DoT’s. Watering this down, ruins the flavor of the playstyle.

A better move would have been to simply remove its stun altogether and increase its Chill chance. Alternatively, have it deal increased damage to targets already Chilled.

As for the healing, why not have it just work as a DoT but the healing increases over time. To incentivise it be left for the full duration rather than spammed.

With regards to a stun, this is problematic but perhaps there is a ranged option out of class that could fill the role. Or perhaps Frozen Slab could function as an on demand stun with the alternative remaining as a deflection based option.

Agreed. This change was disastrous and completely unnecessary. Polar Wind is the issue people are having in pvp and nerfing its chilled proc rate in pve hurts us for exactly 0 reason.

SkaiFaith

Theist_VII wrote: »

Polar Wind needs to hit the cutting block.

While I get that you enjoy it, @SkaiFaith there are people taking full advantage of the off-heal, running two Wardens in duo groups for PvP to become unkillable. No other skill provides such free off-healing without any investment.

That's why I would get if the healing affecting only the second player would be nerfed, possibly not to the ground.

I was wondering: since Polar Wind scales on Max Health, would It be difficult to have the ally healing portion scale on the Target max health?
This way if the Warden has 45K Max Health and the Nightblade next to him has 25K, the NB doesn't get 60% of his health healed but just his 33%.

I think this would help alleviate the off-healing stacking in PvP without destroying its usefulness @Theist_VII

Edit: also, I wouldn't define Polar Wind "without a cost" since it costs 4K Mag and you can't really spam It forever, especially if you have built for Max Health. It gives room to breathe for sure but sooner or later It ends.

Edit 2: the problem with 2 Wardens stacking Polar Wind in BG is the same problem Echoing Vigor has with it stacking in Cyro groups. I don't think it is a problem of the skills per se but of the system...

Theist_VII

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Polar Wind needs to hit the cutting block.

While I get that you enjoy it, @SkaiFaith there are people taking full advantage of the off-heal, running two Wardens in duo groups for PvP to become unkillable. No other skill provides such free off-healing without any investment.

That's why I would get if the healing affecting only the second player would be nerfed, possibly not to the ground.

I was wondering: since Polar Wind scales on Max Health, would It be difficult to have the ally healing portion scale on the Target max health?
This way if the Warden has 45K Max Health and the Nightblade next to him has 25K, the NB doesn't get 60% of his health healed but just his 33%.

I think this would help alleviate the off-healing stacking in PvP without destroying its usefulness @Theist_VII

Edit: also, I wouldn't define Polar Wind "without a cost" since it costs 4K Mag and you can't really spam It forever, especially if you have built for Max Health. It gives room to breathe for sure but sooner or later It ends.

You lose hardly any damage in PvP when building into health with your attributes and when Maturation hits you get a free 10% health just from healing yourself allowing your health to get extremely high with zero set investment.

Your proposal would be fine if the previous sentence wasn’t true, but as long as max health is easily obtained in PvP, having group heals that scale off it are a problem. An easy solution would be to have the off-heal scale off of max magicka or stamina instead of health, that way you would need to invest into a normal healing stat to heal others, instead of being a one-off.

Keen

Really cant believe they pushed the pointless warden changes anyway, but changed the vamp edits. Way to listen to your players. Pushing me away, yet again.

You should really listen and learn from the people who PAY you.