Why all the negativity about grinding? (Poll)

Paulytnz

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

I don't think that it is actually grinding that people hate, I think it's more the RNG that is involved. These Inks are the perfect example here.

I don't mind grind when it's something you can progress at little by little each day. You just know that your effort is rewarded if you put the time in, even if just a little bit of time each day.

But if it is RNG that is thrown into that, it can really make the whole situation a pain and something to dislike. You may go moments without getting any luck, so your time feels wasted.

DigiAngel

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Because I doubt a lot of folks like to do the same thing over and over and over again, with little to no reward. The double rng gated leads are awful. Honestly, I think ZOS mis-stepped with hiding scribing behind such an awful grind.

Necrotech_Master

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

The issue is not grinding itself, it is grinding against a glorified roulette.

I used to play a grindy MMO. Quests like "Kill 3500 monsters" were routine. But they were bearable, because I could see the progress bar filling up with my effort. I could put an estimate on how long it would take.

The problem here is that you are grinding against a roulette. Whatever it is you are trying to get either drops, or it does not. There is no progression, just random blessings or curses from the RNG gods.
And, worst of all, there is no way to tell if you will need to keep at it for another hour, or another week. Or if it will ever drop at all.

to me i think this is the best description

i wouldnt even mind killing 10000 enemies if i had a progress meter for it, theres a definitive end

grinding for something with really low drop chance with no "safeguards" (curation/escalating chance for every failure), your at the mercy of RNG, this is not enjoyable

i can only do that for so long before a "this sucks im going to do something else" moment happens

a good example being luminous ink, its too low drop rate to make it worth intentionally farming, and there is no repeatable method to get it guaranteed outside of "create throwaway character, run scribe line, delete, rinse/repeat"

edit: spelling

cyclonus11

It's mind-numbingly boring.

MoonPile

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Idk if someone said this already but I really don't care what's "part of all MMORPGs" for how many years.

It's known and acknowledged by the devs that a large portion of ESO players, like myself, play primarily for TES rather than MMO aspects.

It's just kind of weird to see various arguments (which are more prevalent in recent years, I suppose due to migrants from other MMOs) rooted in MMO gameplay as being the main "correct" mode of play.

ESO has always been different; I'm glad it is. I don't enjoy being prevented from actually doing what I enjoy in the game (e.g. executing an idea in a housing build if I cannot get an item), which would keep me logged in playing for long periods anyway, by lame, unenjoyable, filler grind.

ArchMikem

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

Grinding to unlock something Account wide, is preferable to grinding the same thing over and over again per character.

Danikat

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

derkaiserliche wrote: »

MMORPGs are games, where you grind your way to the to top since over 20 years already. You grind for items, wealth and collectables. But in the forum there is one topic after the other about players not wanting to put effort into it.

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

For me a good MMORPG needs a lot of possibilities to grind and i enjoy aiming for goals over a longer period of time but what about you?

I completely disagree that MMOs are supposed to be all about grinding, or that grinding is supposed to be enjoyable.

It's an easy way for the developers to drag out activities, to keep players busy and therefore logging in regularly (and often paying a subscription to do so). That doesn't mean it's fun, or even intended to be fun.

It's also not universal, I've always avoided games that focus on grinding (and yes there are MMOs which don't). At first ESO did have a lot of it due to copying the 'gear treadmill' from older games, but thankfully they broke away from that, I think because it was getting impractical and they realised it didn't fit with how the majority of people were playing the game. ESO was made by veteran developers from some old fashioned MMOs which did focus on grinding (and PvP) and I think they were caught by surprise making a game for Elder Scrolls fans, but thankfully they caught up and started matching the game to the people playing it. The downside is that makes it more frustrating when they don't.

Erickson9610

ESO is special to me not because it's partially an MMORPG, but because it's a TES game, and one of the few videogames in existence which allows me to play as a werewolf in a multiplayer setting. The grinding may come naturally for the MMORPG genre, but I've been selective about which grinds I partake in.

Some of the grinds in this game (like Antiquities, Scribing, or Companions) I do because I genuinely enjoy that content, and/or want something out of those systems. I remember how long I've spent grinding for Mythic items that would benefit my Werewolf builds, such as the Oakensoul Ring or Shapeshifter's Chain. I've completed the Scribing grind on my main character in preparation for eventual Werewolf Grimoires that may be implemented in the future. And, I love the Companions system, and have decided to collect every Keepsake (even Bastian's) and hope that we get a Werewolf Companion to put my best Companion build on.

I'm currently working on the Skill Style grind for Gold Road. I could accelerate my progress by completing West Weald dailies on alternate characters, buying Mosaic Skill Shreds from guild traders, and completing Scribing quests on alternate characters for more Luminous Ink, but I know that I'll eventually get the rest of those Skill Styles in time. I hardly use those Skill Styles on my regular builds, but I like the idea of having more customization, and I want ZOS to make more Skill Styles — especially for the skills I do use, like Werewolf Transformation.


My point is that I find enjoyment out of eventually reaching my goals. That, and given that there's not a lot of content I feel the need to grind for, the game is usually very casual for me. Only when there's some new pressing content (like a useful Mythic item, new Grimoires/Scripts, or new Companions) do I feel the need to actively play until I've experienced everything with it. Typically, that period of grinding also makes me more engaged with other aspects of the game as well — theorycrafting for Player or Companion builds and running them in PvP/PvE content has been some of the most fun I've had with this game, especially when I play with others.

Nharimlur_Finor

Tandor wrote: »

Biased poll options.

i was going down the path of 'no option suits me', but this works just as well.

MasterSpatula

Not voting in your poll because the answers you've provided are inherently biased.

Disliking doing the same activity over and over and over again until all the joy has been sucked out of it, then continuing to do that same activity for ten times or more as long as you already have done it ≠ "wanting everything handed to you."

The insinuation is demeaning, and dishonestly so.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Calastir wrote: »

Job and life demand enough of my time already.
Games are meant to be enjoyed and not feel like a second job.

This is where I'm at. My husband and I played ESO together on a daily basis, whenever we could. Our greatest achievement was getting the Emperor / Empress titles on two different characters in the same week, during the first Midyear Mayhem event, and before the account-wide achievements were a thing.

Neither of us had even made Legate. I doubt that I'll ever make Grand Overlord, but I can't say that I really care about that anymore.

I don't even know where to get the last two achievements to get the 10th Anniversary skin, so... *shrug*

TaSheen

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Sepultura_13 wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

Job and life demand enough of my time already.
Games are meant to be enjoyed and not feel like a second job.

This is where I'm at. My husband and I played ESO together on a daily basis, whenever we could. Our greatest achievement was getting the Emperor / Empress titles on two different characters in the same week, during the first Midyear Mayhem event, and before the account-wide achievements were a thing.

Neither of us had even made Legate. I doubt that I'll ever make Grand Overlord, but I can't say that I really care about that anymore.

I don't even know where to get the last two achievements to get the 10th Anniversary skin, so... *shrug*

Congrats on the Emp/Emp achievements! Which are the two you're missing for the skin?

SeaGtGruff

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

I'm not a fan of grinding in general, but I'll grind for a while to get whatever results I'm doing it for, or-- if attaining the results is going to take longer-- to at least "put a dent in it."

I enjoy long, leisurely playthroughs, and in single-player CRPGs I prefer to level up skills myself rather than paying for training. That means there are times when I do the same repetitive activity over and over again to increase my skills or level up. But I prefer to play the game, not just grind mindlessly, so I try to keep grinding sessions to a minimum, and I'm content to let my skills improve slowly through active gameplay unless there's a pressing need to improve them quickly, such as to open up the next set of guild quests by being advanced to the next level in that guild.

As far as grinding in ESO, I don't grind much, but I'll do it on occasion.

For instance, I'll grind resource-capturing missions in Cyrodiil in order to earn enough Alliance Points for an endeavor, or grind the stationary bosses in the Imperial City sewers during events to try to get outfit style pages, because those are activities I enjoy doing for themselves and I don't mind doing them over and over again for a while, although I generally stop once I get what I wanted so I can go on to other activities.

And last night I picked up 2 trash (white, unenchanted, traitless, CP150) axes from a weapons rack in my alliance base in the Imperial City sewers just so I could equip them and grind up my PC EU main's Dual Wield skill line to level 25 in order to buy the grimoire for Dual Wield while it's discounted during the event. But I wasn't simply grinding my Dual Wield level; I was also running around a large section of West Weald that I hadn't explored yet, discovering map locations and harvesting resource nodes while I was killing mobs. In short, I was killing two birds with one stone, as well as trying to keep the grinding fun and interesting. But I stopped as soon as I attained my goal, because I had other things to do.

As far as grinding for Antiquity leads for fragments of mythic gear, special furnishings, etc., I might engage in that sort of thing for a little while, as long as the activity involved is fun for me, but I honestly don't care enough about mythics to grind hour after hour, day after day, or week after week.

BretonMage

Grinding which relies on RNG, especially when RNG is bad, can be utterly soul-destroying. I don't want to spend weeks and months chasing after a mere chance for a drop.

For example, I'm having the absolute worst experience looking for purple companion gear in a specific trait. I used to run IA everyday trying to earn fortunes for the companion gear boxes, however after spending months only to get 10-15 bound pieces in unwanted traits, I've come to hate the IA. This is the sort of grind I detest: spending weeks or months, and getting untradeable junk.

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

The issue is not grinding itself, it is grinding against a glorified roulette.

I used to play a grindy MMO. Quests like "Kill 3500 monsters" were routine. But they were bearable, because I could see the progress bar filling up with my effort. I could put an estimate on how long it would take.

The problem here is that you are grinding against a roulette. Whatever it is you are trying to get either drops, or it does not. There is no progression, just random blessings or curses from the RNG gods.
And, worst of all, there is no way to tell if you will need to keep at it for another hour, or another week. Or if it will ever drop at all.

Can we pin this somewhere for ZOS to read?

fizzylu

Yeah, these poll options are kind of wack.
In ESO specifically, I'm less of a fan of grinding than I am in other MMOs. This mostly comes down to the fact that a lot of things are RNG based, like the ToT fragment pieces for the emote+houseguest achievements that I've been farming forever and still have yet to even get half of each.
Then there is the case of events where they have repetitive, boring things you have to do everyday. It's just constant farming of dailies or some sort of first time a day activity completion (killing a world boss, for example). I don't fully hate this, but in ESO I participate in most events minimally compared to how active I am during events in other MMOs (my favorite game for events is GW2 because I love all the event specific activities/minigames). And the fact that the rewards are mostly just RNG boxes/crates filled with normal items that I basically just sell for gold instead of actual event themed rewards.... well, I don't find it all very appealing in the slightest (yes, there is the event merchant but her stock is very lacking in comparison to event themed rewards offered during events in other MMOs).

That being said, I actually thought the way Zenimax did the drops for scripts to be pretty balanced/fair and I didn't understand the complaints about the "grind" for them. I do think that the ink being so RNG based is kind of dumb though just because it doesn't allow you to play around with spell combinations freely and seems in opposition to the feature.

So, do I dislike grinding? No, but do I dislike grinding in ESO? Yes, in most cases. The grinding activity needs to be fun/engaging for me to not dislike it and I like having a clear goal to reach to get the thing I want.... and sadly, ESO is like RNG Mindlessness Online. It felt the worst during the 10 year anniversary event this year. I barely played during it just because the RNG was so unbearable and not rewarding on top of extremely boring gameplay (there is nothing fun about doing geysers with 40+ people causing enemies to die before you can even see them spawn in and constant visual+audio lag).

Czeri

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Most of the time I manage to combine grinding with something else (or at least another type of a grind), so I don't mind it that much, eg. running the same dungeon over and over for a lead but also filling up my stickerbook, or taking a companion that I need to level up along to a public dungeon or delve with a lead.

If I can't combine two different aims, like with doing surveys to gather mats, I make sure to have something good to watch on tv while I do it, and I only do it when I'm running low (so yes, I have at least a thousand surveys on a mule alt that I doubt will ever be done unless ZoS gives us some alternative way).

I do agree with the sentiment above about uncurated RNG, though. That is the worst. Super rare drops from only one source (like the daily quests for the Khajit Brazier diagram that I've been doing for around 3 years now with no luck); or double RNG with leads from treasure maps (I have collected the ancestral Breton motif 3 times over, and some pieces 6 or 7 times, but am still missing swords) feel like I'm being trolled by the devs.

Turtle_Bot

Grinding for stuff is fine, but once you've reached end game, being forced to grind for the basic essential consumables just to keep playing the game (or try the new systems in the case of scribing and ink) at that high level, it gets frustrating (especially when spawn/drop rates for said essential consumables are much lower than they realistically should be).

The key phrase here is essential consumables. I'm not talking about unlock stuff like style pages, gear or even rare, less used consumables such as upgrade materials for max quality gear, I'm talking basics like potions/food, that get consumed by the stack much faster than they can be farmed (at least that's how it has been for a long time now, it remains to be seen if the recent event rewards and increase in players farming for stuff like ink will have a real impact or not on this in the long term).

Hopefully the recent influx of consumable materials (from event rewards) as well as ZOS indicating that they are looking to update the alchemy/provisioning systems this year will help to reduce the strain of the grind for basic essentials and shift the grind back towards actual achievements or super rare drops/cosmetics/rewards that aren't part of the minimum requirements for playing the game at the highest level.

spartaxoxo

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

Well, it also depends on how you define grind. I don't want to spend weeks on end doing rote, unchallenging, RNG tasks like opening treasure chests or killing overland mobs. I don't mind there being some of these permanently available for people who enjoy it, but that ain't me.

However, if grind is being used as needing constant work towards a goal, then I do enjoy long-term goals. So, being able to make constant improvements to my character, go further into IA, etc. Those are fun and I feel the core of the genre, rather than mindless RNG type grinds.

So all the different combos available is an example of good grind to me. While the excessive node harvesting needed for ink is bad grind to me.

Sarannah

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

As someone that normally does not mind grinding, I feel some grinds are ok and some are not.

Grinds that let me play the game the way I want to are fine. Like for example the west weald grinds of 30 dailies, mosaic shards, class script, ink drops, etc. These allow me to complete them on my own terms and in my own pace, they are somewhat grindy, but not over the top grindy. And in the example of the ink drops, I can play the game however I want and still get those to drop. So these are all fine to me.

Grinds that do not let me play the game how I want to play are terrible and should be removed. Like for example the scribing grind for scripts. Doing all these stupid dailies once to gather all scripts is fine, as that is grindy but you can progress it in a week if you really rush it. Having to do this on 20 characters, that is 20 weeks of stupid daily tasks due to the accountwide limit for a characterbased grind. That is just crazy! (Note: Having a main game system gated behind 20 weeks of grinding is a big NO)

If the grind still lets me play the game in the way I want to play or if I have to go slightly out of my way to do so, that is fine with me. Just adding grinds for the sake of prolonging content, feels terrible.

Meiox

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Grinding is bad, when its combind with RNG.
I would prefer beat x times a boss and every time it drops 1 part and with x parts you get the item versus the boss has a small chance to drop the item

divnyi

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

Grind is bad.
Doing content to receive the reward is ok.
Doing content repetitively to receive the reward is not.

We play the game to find some new experiences. Forcing us to replay the same stuff isn't that.

RomanRex

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

grinding is lazy game design. it is a cheap way to drive up play time without addling anything of quality.

i’m glad a few people in this world like to whittle wood. that doesn’t mean it’s not an unenjoyable waste of time for most other people.

there are better ways to spend your life that “grinding” intangible digital content you don’t even really own.

PrincessOfThieves

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

I don't mind grinding when there is a clear goal (for example, do 30 daily quests to unlock the daily Dragonguard chest). Or filling the stickerbook.
But I hate grinding for leads and other things where there is no end in sight if you are unlucky.

jle30303

The *more* different things there are to do, the *more* objectives there are, the *less* grindy each one of them has to be.

Otherwise there is no chance for newer players to "catch up", they are always "falling further behind".

ValarMorghulis1896

I hate grinding, but I don't moan about it. Either I get what I want by playing normally or I don't. Simple.

AvalonRanger

I dont understand what the topic is about but i like to vote for something

"Why all the negativity about grinding? (Poll)"

Just I don't like to keep tune upping my characters just like the "car".
Those type of games already became "fossil" in 2024.

I want to spend my time for driving on the nice "road" with great landscape
rather than car customization work by dirty hand with full of engine oil.

Grinding?

Elder Scrolls is not kind of contents anyway.

katanagirl1

Grinding to me can be either things I don’t mind doing or things I don’t like to do. It’s just repeating the same task until the desired result is achieved.

The problem with rng, and especially very low percentage chance rng, is that it is possible to take very many attempts to be successful. For example, if something has a 1% chance of dropping, it could happen on the first try, it could be the 100th try (though not guaranteed, as some might think), or it could be the 10000th try.

Also, the fewer attempts that you can make (like daily quests versus farming mats), the longer it takes to be successful.

GooGa592

Because grinding is a horrible game model and a painful way to keep players in game. ZOS should focus on new content for PvE and restoring Cyrodiil PvP to what it once was rather than creating grinds to keep people logged on.

Ezhh

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

The problem is when RNG means you can spend hours grinding and get nothing at all back for your time.

If I want to grind CP or grind skill levels or grind a companion's level, these all need a set amount of time/experience that can be measured. The end is always in sight no matter how long it takes. (Of course it can sometimes still be so far ahead that it's just not worthwhile at all).

The ink grind however is driving me mad. I have tried the farm routes people say get them x inks per hour yet I don't get that many or even close. These are the things that get me frustrated with the game to the point of asking questions about whether I shouldn't go find other things to do.

SickleCider

"Grind" needs a foreseeable end. I don't think it's right that a person could potentially be shafted by an algorithm forever when they put in identical effort to another player. Brutal RNG is the problem. Grind also shouldn't be used to artificially bloat content.

That's my opinion, stratospherically. As for my personal behavior, when I see that a grind doesn't respect my time, I'm capable of deciding my time is better spent elsewhere. If that's lazy to people, that's just a problem with their perspective, man.