Why all the negativity about grinding? (Poll)

derkaiserliche

MMORPGs are games, where you grind your way to the to top since over 20 years already. You grind for items, wealth and collectables. But in the forum there is one topic after the other about players not wanting to put effort into it.

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

For me a good MMORPG needs a lot of possibilities to grind and i enjoy aiming for goals over a longer period of time but what about you?

notyuu

The reason most of the players complain about the grind in ESO is that ESO is super casual so they kinda expect everything to just be handed to them instantly

Tandor

Biased poll options.

derkaiserliche

I like grinding, its part of all MMORPGs for me (even for weeks/months)

Tandor wrote: »

Biased poll options.

Try to phrase your poll option then

Araneae6537

I don’t mind to grind for something, dependent in part on the length and whether I get anything out of the process (the early antiquities grind is tedious because there are very few green and blue leads worthwhile compared to how long a character may be at that level, for example) and whether I am at least making steady progress. If drops are curated for instance, great, then I’ll eventually get what I want.

The more RNG involved, the more aggravating/discouraging I’m going to find it, to the point where I may give up on something entirely. Treasure chest leads — Necrom and Gold Road have made me come to despise treasure maps. I can’t grind it, unless you call buying something repeatedly grinding, and I am NOT doing that. I don’t even want to use the maps anymore, it just feels bad.

(Edited for typo.)

Destai

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

I enjoy having to earn something, for sure. It's one reason why games are fun for me. So I'm not opposed to the process it self. My only real gripe with Scribing is really around Ink. IMO, it should've flooded the game, so people can get in and enjoy the new feature more readily. I don't appreciate RNG, I appreciate a set number of steps to get something.

Calastir

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

Job and life demand enough of my time already.
Games are meant to be enjoyed and not feel like a second job.

Reginald_leBlem

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

I don't mind SOME grinding, but sometimes the game makes ridiculous RNG grinds, such as the style pages during the anniversary event, that just.... suck.

ItsGlaive

Love forum polls, the questions are always loaded and uneven

"Grind" by it's definition is not meant to be fun - "The daily grind" for example. That said, I don't mind farming stuff so long as it's not ridiculous. More sandbox elements (actual farming, more minigames, side activities, base building etc) in MMOs would alleviate the grind and offer more replayability too I think, but those things have fallen by the wayside in the last decade or so.

tomofhyrule

This grind really isn't that bad.

The grind for the Anniversary style pages was bad. The grind to complete the codex for Ancestral motifs is bad. Both of those are a lot of very low drop rates and RNG on top of RNG.

But the ink drops at a comparable rate to nirncrux and the scripts are curated by character. Once I figured out that second point, I just started to do script tasks with the character I needed the scripts for instead of my main, and then all of a sudden the 'grind' was over. (I also don't think many people realize that part - FYI, Scripts are curated by character). I also am not trying to get every single combination of skills on every character the day after the patch.

Could the ink drop rates be increased? Yes. But I did to a single farming day in Craglorn to get ink and nirncrux, and there was also a "harvest 100 resources" weekly so I felt like it was very efficient since I was getting a lot of things at once. I also did try to get the Scripts on my main quickly, so I did one or two days worth of every-delve-quest-in-the-game to grind them out (and yes, after the first they drop at a 25% rate, so you can get more than 9 a day). But I'm just letting the Scripts flow in for my alts, save the ones that I already have an idea what I want for them. But I do not think we need to have a PTS-style "I made a new character so they need to be Lv 50, 3600 CP, all passives unlocked as soon as I leave the tutorial" outside of the PTS. Some things are allowed to take time, and something taking 30 days (like naturally getting Mosaic shards) is not unreasonable.

I feel like there are a lot of people who try to do about 500 hours of stuff in the first day the patch drops, then complains that it doesn't go their way, and then they also complain that there's nothing to do until the next patch. I instead do what I need, a little each day, and magically I find that I don't burn out and I also have content for a while.

DenverRalphy

Where's the option for "I don't mind grinding if there's something I deem worth the effort" option?

Cuz I'd have clicky'd that one.

ssewallb14_ESO

I like long term chases, I just don't like time gating and extreme RNG.

Nathrai

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Where's the option for "I don't mind grinding if there's something I deem worth the effort" option?

Cuz I'd have clicky'd that one.

That wouldn't fit into the narrative that there's only hardworking people that play MMOs just for the grind and lazy people that want to be handed everything for free ...

My personal option would be:

"I don't mind grinding as long as it's without RNG and everyone has to put in the same or at least comparable effort to reach the goal"

Desiato

This is a poor way to phrase it IMO.

It's not about grinding, it's about progression. Instead of a game in which one starts with a fully developed character at peak power, it's fun to develop the character in different ways through a progression system. Today, most games have some level of progression.

Traditionally, RPGs have had much deeper progression than other genres. This goes back to the pen and paper D&D days in the 1970s. The idea was to have game systems that approximated a virtual fantasy reality. ESO is a descendant of D&D.

ESO presents to us a virtual world in which we can develop our characters in different ways through an array of activities. Ideally, the activities themselves should be enjoyable, but that is extremely subjective. The kind of character we develop is dictated by our choices.

I enjoy deep progression that can last for years. That's why I play a game like ESO.

Grinding is what some players engage in when they want to expedite progress.

One factor that results in grinding is RNG. RNG is used to approximate apparent randomness in real life. When one goes panning for gold, they are not guaranteed a drop. There is an apparent randomness to it.

Like in real life, it's fun to have rare items in a virtual world, so random loot tables have been part of RPGs from close to the start. There's a cynical view among some players that they exist only as time sinks, but that is not why they were introduced.

Unfortunately, some people become obsessed with having rare items or reaching peak power and will grind for them even if it makes them unhappy instead of simply enjoying the process or a nice surprise when they happen.

I can enjoy grinding because I like being focused on a task and working hard. It's fun for me to continuously iterate my approach to become more efficient. However, it's not what I play for.

xylena_lazarow

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

If players refer to your game as a chore, then you have failed as a game developer.

reazea

As long as I live I will never forget the grind to get the 4 anniversary grind celebration event style pages.

Desiato

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If players refer to your game as a chore, then you have failed as a game developer.

Not necessarily. A chore to one person is an enjoyable activity to another.

I think if someone chooses to do something they do not enjoy, that is entirely on them. This used to be the case for me in ESO. I over-extended my first ESO life by around 2 years, inflicting misery upon myself instead of choosing to do something I would enjoy more.

I understand you're a pvp focused player and I sympathize with you because when I was a pvp focused player in ESO, I was miserable. It's unfortunate that the game developed so far from its original design which permitted a greater focus on pvp, but that ship has sailed.

Tandor

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If players refer to your game as a chore, then you have failed as a game developer.

Or those players are either playing the wrong game for them, or else playing a game they would enjoy more if they played it a different way.

xylena_lazarow

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

Desiato wrote: »

Not necessarily. A chore to one person is an enjoyable activity to another.

Tandor wrote: »

Or those players are either playing the wrong game for them, or else playing a game they would enjoy more if they played it a different way.

I wouldn't mind if the grind was just killing players in PvP, but hard locking PvP relevant content behind things that a PvPer would consider a chore is garbage obsolete game design. It sets the grind players and PvPers against each other as enemies on the forums. Successful F2P games let grinders grind, and adults with responsibilities can pay cash to skip. We are different demographics playing completely different games at this point.

I paid $40 for Scribing. Not content that I finished a decade ago and have no desire to repeat, definitely not in the format of daily time gated RNG, which is an absolute insult to my time and money. Wonder how the grinders would feel if ZOS hard locked something they paid $40 for behind the Emperor! achievement in PvP...

SilverBride

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

There are grinds then there are GRINDS. Repeating content several times to finally get the desired item is one thing. Repeating content all day every day that are only available for the duration of an event and still not getting the item, as what happened with the Replicas in the Jubilee event, should never happen.

KlauthWarthog

The issue is not grinding itself, it is grinding against a glorified roulette.

I used to play a grindy MMO. Quests like "Kill 3500 monsters" were routine. But they were bearable, because I could see the progress bar filling up with my effort. I could put an estimate on how long it would take.

The problem here is that you are grinding against a roulette. Whatever it is you are trying to get either drops, or it does not. There is no progression, just random blessings or curses from the RNG gods.
And, worst of all, there is no way to tell if you will need to keep at it for another hour, or another week. Or if it will ever drop at all.

Vonnegut2506

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

I played the original Everquest; I don't mind grinding. I don't enjoy grinding mixed with RNG. That's not a grind; that's playing the lottery every day hoping to win.

Aurielle

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Nathrai wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Where's the option for "I don't mind grinding if there's something I deem worth the effort" option?

Cuz I'd have clicky'd that one.

"I don't mind grinding as long as it's without RNG and everyone has to put in the same or at least comparable effort to reach the goal"

I agree with this. Tying RNG to a grind is just unnecessary. I wouldn’t have cared about the ink grind if ink spawned at reliable locations. As it stands, the ink drop rate / RNG appears to be bugged — some players have amassed hundreds with minimal effort, while others of us are struggling even when deliberately grinding for it. It’s the same thing with leads. If you had to do a task 1-3 times for a lead, that’s fine. Opening 100+ treasure chests because RNG? Not fine.

Necrotech_Master

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

i dont mind the grinding, but it has to be enjoyable process, mainly not taking too long

"rare mat" grinding such as inks or nirn is to me not enjoyable at all

"gear collection", or repeat dungeon running i can tolerate but usually no more than like 3-5 runs in a row, but at least ill have shown some progress on the collection for each run

leads are kind of like gear grinding, but they can be problematic and unfun when they just refuse to drop, the first lead drop should be almost guaranteed (like at least 50% or higher chance), if your going for codex entries those can be less as they are not necessarily "required" for the item. treasure map leads should be curated to stuff you are missing codex entries for, along with nearly guaranteed (at least 70% drop chance)

basically if im grinding, i want to be able to show progress on it within about 30 min, otherwise ill move on to some other activity

I_killed_Vivec

I dont understand what the topic is about but i like to vote for something

There are times when I enjoy mindlessly running around picking up everything I see.

There are time when I enjoy working my way through untaxing quest lines.

There are time when I enjoy mindlessly bashing keys to bring about the downfall of a world boss.

And sometimes I like to answer a poll

Araneae6537

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

The issue is not grinding itself, it is grinding against a glorified roulette.

I used to play a grindy MMO. Quests like "Kill 3500 monsters" were routine. But they were bearable, because I could see the progress bar filling up with my effort. I could put an estimate on how long it would take.

The problem here is that you are grinding against a roulette. Whatever it is you are trying to get either drops, or it does not. There is no progression, just random blessings or curses from the RNG gods.
And, worst of all, there is no way to tell if you will need to keep at it for another hour, or another week. Or if it will ever drop at all.

This 100%.

Ph1p

derkaiserliche wrote: »

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

There is a difference between repeating content that I like and want to get better in vs. farming RNG-based drops that unlock something I might use in said content.

Syldras

Advertising the game like this -
https://www.thegamer.com/eso-not-considered-an-mmorpg/ -
will attract people accordingly.

xylena_lazarow

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

Syldras wrote: »

Advertising the game like this -
https://www.thegamer.com/eso-not-considered-an-mmorpg/ -
will attract people accordingly.

And it does! I'm originally a shooter player, neither MMO nor RPG player, didn't like Skyrim, but love the PvP here. I've paid plenty of cash over the years for PvP, and would like to continue, if the game can respect my time and money.

TybaltKaine

I'm fine with grinding, but in a game that has an expiration date (and let's face the fact that the vast majority of MMORPG's do) it is not appealing.

If these mechanics were in a single player experience that didn't have some uncertain but guaranteed cutoff date, I'd wager that most people wouldn't care.

When you ask folks to invest a large amount of their more and more limited free time to go after things that don't need to be so hard to obtain it becomes clear that the "grind" is meant to pad play time and force folks into engaging in content they don't want to so that the report looks good at the end of the month.

I'm of the opinion that a game can feel free to charge microtransactions and such if it isn't going to require large time commitments for what amounts to small rewards. If a game is going to force RNG and grinding, then it shouldn't also be nickel and diming the player every chance it can.

It's about respecting a player's time and money, and lately it feels as if this game is doing so less and less.

I'm here to have fun, not pad someone's wallet coming and going.

DreamyLu

I can't vote. I have a totally different approach of the issue. I will try to explain.

For me, grinding is a subjective concept. Grinding has for each of us a different definition. Generally, it's when we start repeating an activity we don't like in a row, for whatever reason pushing us to believe it's the only way to go. At the top of it, the cursor is completely different from one to the next as what activity is grinding, and when does it start to be grinding (or not). Not all have the same feelings about. That's a matter of personal tastes and limits.

But all the time, no matter who, no matter the activity, that's our own decision. We decide to impose the bother to ourselves on our own. Nobody is forcing us to do that.

Something we shouldn't forget: there is no time limit of any sorts in this game, no matter what our objective(s) is(are). So we have no need to grind. We can just keep playing the way we like, pushing maybe a bit on farming once in a while if required, but just enough not to suffer. Our objectives then complete over time, without grinding, however with the consequence that it takes - of course - longer.

And I believe that's exactly the key point: Many players want to reach their objective rapidly. And that's where the problem starts, like in the case of the luminous inks: The drop rate doesn't match with "rapidly". So, to be able to do it fast, players have to push it and that's how grinding starts. But in fact, that's their own decision to "grind" so that they can go faster. Nobody force them to do so.

Personally, I never ever grind. I always play the way I like. Once in a while, if in a good mood, I force myself to do some activities I don't like much, a bit here and there, so that it never comes close to grinding. That works perfectly for me. Now of course, the counter part is that I reach most objectives a lot later than other players. But well, who cares?

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't criticize anybody. I really just try to put things back in perspective. We grind because we decide to. We sort of creating it although we're not forced to it. And in most cases, the reason behind it wanting to reach objectives as fast as possible.