Why all the negativity about grinding? (Poll)

MidniteOwl1913

Grind is time. I respect the effort the devs put into making that game, and I expect them to respect mine.

Having to do the same boring thing over and over and over just for a *chance* at a drop required to use the system I bought the chapter for doesn't say "respecting my time" to me.

That there was a mind-numbing boring quest required to just unlock it was bad enough, but shorting the needed resource behind low drop RNG? That's just insulting.

Spending 2 hours chasing nodes with nothing to show for it is a waste of time.

VouxeTheMinotaur

I like grinding, its part of all MMORPGs for me (even for weeks/months)

my father always taught me that when you work hard for something you want, and you finally get it, you've earned it, and no one can take that feeling away from you. a sense of pride an accomplishment from a long journey or battle is euphoric. I guess from that lesson since childhood is why I love working toward something. the RNG is questionable, but the difficulty increase in combat, the achievement hunting and material farming, etc. I personally enjoy it because the more time that's spent makes it that much more rewarding and valuable to me.

I don't like things handed to me, because if it's that easy, then it makes it less valuable. Not saying everyone shouldn't have the chance to have what they want, or what's available in the game, but if it's something that's ALWAYS going to be in the game and not on a deadline, then it's not a big deal, you'll get it eventually. if you want it. earn it. If I get something easily due to little or near no effort or achieve it quickly, then it's just... eh.

Now for events with tickets and special items in the special merchants like impresario, her assistant and the indrik vendor is different. That I can understand is tedious to keep up with especially when there's multiple things you may want that time around.

I also can agree to some arguments made here that repetition is boring, but on that same note, there are multiple ways to get items in the game, or better approaches I should say. Though yes, I get it, it's annoying to play the same trial over and over and over and over and over etc. for one little antiquity lead, but why burn yourself out like that? Take a break, try again tomorrow, go do something else.

Continuing to be frustrated by the very thing that's causing the frustration? I'm sorry, but that's on you. This game is not a chore, people make it become their personal chore once they log in. There's a lot of other things to get involved in in ESO and more to have fun with. Ex: Ink Farming. I did that for maybe a couple of hours until I saw that I was starting to get none after maybe 10 minutes of nothing, then moved on to do dungeons. swapped characters to run a trial, helped a friend with a quest. just kept it flowing with something "new".

People expect results immediately or within the next coming days. I don't favor that. Would be nice, sure, but I like long term time investing objectives and hunts. Keeps me coming back to the game and discovering other things, meeting new people, guilds, have fun with friends, and lots of laughs.

Again, this is just my personal opinion. I can understand both sides though after reading through some answers to this thread, other answers though, woof.. it seems like maybe the only reason some people are frustrated with ESO not meeting their demand is most likely because of how much irl money they must have spent outside the subscription (I do too, relax, but I'm just not bothered by grinding, only the server lag currently lol)

xylena_lazarow

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

VouxeTheMinotaur wrote: »

my father always taught me that when you work hard for something you want, and you finally get it, you've earned it, and no one can take that feeling away from you

Earning implies proving merit, providing a service, or producing something of value. Replaying video game content, that one has already mastered, is none of those things. You are spending your leisure time on comfortable familiar media, or simply waiting doing nothing. This is literally the opposite of earning.

MidniteOwl1913

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

VouxeTheMinotaur wrote: »

my father always taught me that when you work hard for something you want, and you finally get it, you've earned it, and no one can take that feeling away from you

Earning implies proving merit, providing a service, or producing something of value. Replaying video game content, that one has already mastered, is none of those things. You are spending your leisure time on comfortable familiar media, or simply waiting doing nothing. This is literally the opposite of earning.

Yes and when the sole reason for success is luck there is no feeling but relief when the grinding ends.

Things gotten by being lucky isn't really the same are earning it.

HalfDragoness

I would say as a general rule I don't like grinding because that usually means doing the same task over and over. However in ESO I don't mind grinding because the game usually gives you several options for how to achieve the same goal. For example 'grinding' the leads to get all 5 pieces of a mythic item is ok because each of the 5 pieces are usually found in different ways (a specific dungeon boss, opening treasure chests, general mobs in a public dungeon, a boss in the imperial city etc...) which means that the overall experience of getting all 5 pieces is a variety of content. Obviously occasionally there are times where the rng gods are not with you and you do have to put time into grinding one specific piece, but imagine if you had to do that same thing 5 times in order to get the mythic item.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

TaSheen wrote: »

Sepultura_13 wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

Job and life demand enough of my time already.
Games are meant to be enjoyed and not feel like a second job.

This is where I'm at. My husband and I played ESO together on a daily basis, whenever we could. Our greatest achievement was getting the Emperor / Empress titles on two different characters in the same week, during the first Midyear Mayhem event, and before the account-wide achievements were a thing.

Neither of us had even made Legate. I doubt that I'll ever make Grand Overlord, but I can't say that I really care about that anymore.

I don't even know where to get the last two achievements to get the 10th Anniversary skin, so... *shrug*

Congrats on the Emp/Emp achievements! Which are the two you're missing for the skin?

Just got in from work, so I'll let you know as soon as I log in! Thanks in advance for any info that you're able to give...much appreciated!

Northwold

I'm a casual player. I would play the game more, and likely spend more money in it, if I could more easily dip in and out. The more grind is put in it, the less likely I am to login on my Sunday afternoon because I am not going to throw away four hours of my time in which I could be having a life just to achieve some basic function that has virtually no entertainment attached.

Grind really does strike me as one of the fundamental received wisdom fallacies of MMO design. In the *short term*, yes, players will spend every spare hour of every spare day in your game doing pointless, time consuming tasks. And, yes, your world will look populated -- with people going round and round in circles. In the long term, though, they'll get fed up (I mean, we do all have self respect after all, and if a game is trying to become your life without giving anything back, that is when self respect tends to kick in). They'll log in less. And if grind defines the player experience, eventually they simply won't come back and you've lost a player permanently.

This is a balance that is very tricky for a game like ESO to get right because it caters to some very different player types. In my case, as a casual player, what I'm grinding for is gold because I don't engage with the sell side of the trading system which, bizarrely and uniquely to any major MMO, is gated behind player-controlled guilds. I simply have no interest in dealing with that to be able to sell. That is no longer casual play in my world (which can mean maybe playing once a week or once a month at times).

If I were ZOS, thinking about these things, I guess I would want to sit down and identify what kinds of activities different types of players *need* to engage in to have an entertaining experience and *might optionally* engage in, and adjust the grind involved down for the former.

vsrs_au

derkaiserliche wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Biased poll options.

Try to phrase your poll option then

No, it doesn't work that way. If the poll is flawed, then the poll's author should fix it. I couldn't vote in the poll because the poll options contain various presuppositions which make it impossible for me to select a poll option that fits me.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

VouxeTheMinotaur wrote: »

my father always taught me that when you work hard for something you want, and you finally get it, you've earned it, and no one can take that feeling away from you

Earning implies proving merit, providing a service, or producing something of value. Replaying video game content, that one has already mastered, is none of those things. You are spending your leisure time on comfortable familiar media, or simply waiting doing nothing. This is literally the opposite of earning.

I want to add that seeing a person in Cyrodiil with 1500 CP, who has only been in-game for a year at most, who has a Grand Overlord title...that isn't earned. That's called being carried by gatekeepers.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Yes and when the sole reason for success is luck there is no feeling but relief when the grinding ends.

Things gotten by being lucky isn't really the same are earning it.
[/quote]

^^^
This, too.

OtarTheMad

I don’t like grinding because my life can get busy and I can’t play all the time so things that need a ton of time to get, I usually never get.

VouxeTheMinotaur

I like grinding, its part of all MMORPGs for me (even for weeks/months)

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

VouxeTheMinotaur wrote: »

my father always taught me that when you work hard for something you want, and you finally get it, you've earned it, and no one can take that feeling away from you

Earning implies proving merit, providing a service, or producing something of value. Replaying video game content, that one has already mastered, is none of those things. You are spending your leisure time on comfortable familiar media, or simply waiting doing nothing. This is literally the opposite of earning.

Guess we'll have to disagree on that, though sure I can get what you mean

Shara_Wynn

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

notyuu wrote: »

The reason most of the players complain about the grind in ESO is that ESO is super casual so they kinda expect everything to just be handed to them instantly

And yet given the results of this poll, it would suggest that most players actually don't mind the grind and do not in fact "kinda expect everything to just be handed to them instantly"

When I was younger, I played MMO's that had some serious grind. It was such a time sink and quite frankly I don't have time now to be spending 6 hours in the evening, every evening, for a month, camping out the same room in a dungeon or the same spawn point in a zone, killing the same mobs, over and over, just to gain a single level.

ESO hasn't ever really been that grindy, unlike it's predecessors, thankfully! Life is too short and the majority of the ESO player base I'll wager are players who have jobs and families and kids and a life outside of Tamriel.

Juomuuri

Well, I'm not gonna vote since the options are pretty biased, but I enjoy grinding in ESO when I do it while watching video essays on Youtube or watching my friends stream art over Discord while in a call. I don't really care much for grinding otherwise, it's just something mindless for me to do while focusing on a more interesting task.

Also when it comes to Gold Road's grinds (class script scraps, gossamer mosaics or w/e they were called, luminous ink), I simply don't mind it, I play the way I always do, when I feel like it, and these things pile up when they do. I used to be very much into grinding but that destroyed my enjoyment of the game, causing months long breaks. Now I'm just taking it easy and letting this come with their own weight.

AvalonRanger

I dont understand what the topic is about but i like to vote for something

But playing tough mission with nice players is exciting mostly...

xylena_lazarow

I hate grinding, i want to have everything i like within some hours of gaming

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

And yet given the results of this poll, it would suggest that most players actually don't mind the grind

It's also what and how. I'm fine grinding PvP kills, or even PvE bosses can be kinda fun, as long as I can grind at my own pace. Overworld trash mobs, picking flowers, npc quests, no thanks, extremely boring for me. Time gates are an insult, that's where it really becomes a chore. Waiting is not gameplay, content, or earning.

And yes, if I pay $40 for the product being advertised, I am in fact entitled to it right now. Because I paid $40.

StarOfElyon

derkaiserliche wrote: »

MMORPGs are games, where you grind your way to the to top since over 20 years already. You grind for items, wealth and collectables. But in the forum there is one topic after the other about players not wanting to put effort into it.

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

For me a good MMORPG needs a lot of possibilities to grind and i enjoy aiming for goals over a longer period of time but what about you?

I don't mind a little grind but I have limited time to play. Past two days I've been gathering resources and farming incursions and I'm barely getting any drop for ink and mosaic style shreds. I still haven't played the main quest yet and I want to farm for a mythic in IA, but at this rate I'll never finish the current grind for the skill color before mid July at least.

Necrotech_Master

I only like grinding as long as its shorm term and rewardable

StarOfElyon wrote: »

derkaiserliche wrote: »

MMORPGs are games, where you grind your way to the to top since over 20 years already. You grind for items, wealth and collectables. But in the forum there is one topic after the other about players not wanting to put effort into it.

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

For me a good MMORPG needs a lot of possibilities to grind and i enjoy aiming for goals over a longer period of time but what about you?

I don't mind a little grind but I have limited time to play. Past two days I've been gathering resources and farming incursions and I'm barely getting any drop for ink and mosaic style shreds. I still haven't played the main quest yet and I want to farm for a mythic in IA, but at this rate I'll never finish the current grind for the skill color before mid July at least.

i believe the mosaic style shreds were 1 drop per day per acct, at least that is what its been for me

but it seems guaranteed from your first mirrormoor incursion so its not actually that bad

XSTRONG

I like grinding, its part of all MMORPGs for me (even for weeks/months)

Grind is necessary in a game like this to keep me playing it.

Infinite Archive was a perfect addition to the game with the currency and they keep adding stuff in vendor.

I respect people that are only here to do story quest and dont want to grind for stuff but they need to start respect those players that do like grind for wealth and cool stuff.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

TaSheen wrote: »

Congrats on the Emp/Emp achievements! Which are the two you're missing for the skin?

Looks like "Craglorn Completist" and "Champion of the Gold Road" - I can get Gold Road done on Sunday, but Craglorn will take a teensy bit longer, LOL

If I wasn't getting some fresh ink done tomorrow (Saturday, 6/29) I'd probably be able to get both of them out of the way! Oh, well...

MidniteOwl1913

XSTRONG wrote: »

Grind is necessary in a game like this to keep me playing it.

Infinite Archive was a perfect addition to the game with the currency and they keep adding stuff in vendor.

I respect people that are only here to do story quest and dont want to grind for stuff but they need to start respect those players that do like grind for wealth and cool stuff.

I don't like PVP but the fact there are people who love it is fine, more than fine more people engaged in the game great. People who like grinding is fine too, the game has a lot of things to offer. I don't like grinding and unlike PVP if I want to try scribing I can't avoid it. That's really the difference.

A certain amount of grinding comes with the territory, but this feels forced. Like the anniversary grind where there was a time limit, the desire to try the new system is being gated by forced grinding. That right there is the problem.

GuuMoonRyoung

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

Instead of RNG grinding, I would much prefer a number based grinding, for example, kill X boss Y amount of times for definite drop of Z. Sure with RNG there is a chance that I might get an item on the first try, but what if I don't get the item even after hundred try? This needs to be addressed, it is not a healthy system.

blktauna

If I wanted another job I'd get one that paid hard currency.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don’t like grinding because my life can get busy and I can’t play all the time so things that need a ton of time to get, I usually never get.

Exactly. I don't know what life is going to throw at me on any given day, and I can't really plan for anything outside of my working hours. I play to relax, and grinding isn't relaxing, especially when it's at the mercy of RNGebus or gatekeeping guilds.

Sepultura_13

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

blktauna wrote: »

If I wanted another job I'd get one that paid hard currency.

Agreed 1000% - nailed it!

kyle.wilson

derkaiserliche wrote: »

MMORPGs are games, where you grind your way to the to top since over 20 years already. You grind for items, wealth and collectables. But in the forum there is one topic after the other about players not wanting to put effort into it.

We dont talk about years of grinding like for grand overlord or for very hard veteran trial achivements. We talk about the latest gold road grind for ink (which can be bought for gold) and the scribing-skills, where you can get 9 skills a day.

For me a good MMORPG needs a lot of possibilities to grind and i enjoy aiming for goals over a longer period of time but what about you?

The entirety of an MMOs content shouldn't be "the grind"
It's lazy game design.

tomfant

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

A certain amount of grind is ok IMHO. For the most part the ESO devs have a good hand for what is bearable. However sometimes they go too far. The Murkmire prepper achievement was such example when it was 150 dailies and only one per day could be done. Collecting 500 ink is another one. Collecting scripts on alts too. The stuff you have to do for these is just tedious and boring.

AvalonRanger

I dont understand what the topic is about but i like to vote for something

If ZOS can't suggest constructive grinding contents, then they're just talentless as game designer.

I respect environment designer of ZOS, because they're doing "good work" as professional,
and they keep doing good work to build nice Elder Scrolls world design.

But consider game designer aspect of ZOS, then ZOS still have lots of flaw.

I know "grinding" is necessary aspect for MMO game contents from business standing point.
But without entertainment creation, "it just doesn't work".

Orbital78

Unless you grinded in Everquest, I don't think people today understand the meaning of rare or grinding. I don't even know how much time I spent waiting and clear bosses to see the ultra rare ones just for an ultra rare chance at a drop. I do much prefer the casualization of MMO's though. That is something for generations past, but it does make me laugh a little with some of the complaints.

Thysbe

I know a lot of pain in grinding from WoW and GW2 - it can be worse than the current scribing grind, I agree.

The issue is, that ESO was always a less grindy and alt friendly game (except for the skillpoints imho). OK, one excemption was the initial Rubedite Drop druing Orsinium launch ^^.
With the current expansion they introduced exactly that kind of non-alt-friendly, ever ongoing grind I hated in other games and one reason that made me prefer ESO.

It´s the decision in design thats leaving the known path making me wonder what comes next. IA is another example of this adding new, scarcely dropping items to the same content to have people redo and redo the runs, especially with the fragments making it start to feel really endless/infinite.

Quethrosar

I dont enjoy grinding, I only do what needs to be done to get the stuff i want

everquest grind was better than eso grind lol. at least you knew mobs would drop stuff even if that something was random out of 3 items. what made everquest grinding feel bad was when you had groups and damn tanks wanted to roll on robes they couldn't use just sell.