Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Bushido2513 · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

Tnx for bringing a video to ilustrate what many players here are trying to point out.

Well to understand your post that says C is going to S wouldn't we have to see someone that was a C before the patch now play at an S level ?

I would guess this player in the video was a good player before the change and is now better equipped, but how much is ward carry and how much is just skill?

Tcholl · July 5

The post is not mine. As I have already stated, will not go back and forth with you no matter how many times you quote.

It seems that you only want to make noise at this point.

Pelanora · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

As I have already stated, will not go back and forth with you no matter how many times you quote.

It seems that you only want to make noise at this point.

Muted him long ago

Syrusthevirus187 · July 5

Ward is a single target heal, really not an issue when we have groups running around cyro stacking all manner of heals on each other. That's what actually makes players hard to kill.

Tcholl · July 5

Those are two completely different things. You are comparing a skill with a team of healers.

The zerg also have healers running and healing everyone, but this is not the point of discussion here. However, maybe, it is my time to say that i run in a ballgroup and it is FUN.

Also, if some skill/set/class is buffed or nerfed comps will always adapt since good groups will focus other organized groups or large crowds and will need every extra edge they can get.

What i have been saying is that sorcs will deal even more with groups in this patch, since many players on other classes will avoid starting a small scale fight just to be stuck in combat.

olsborg · July 5

I cant anything , but agree. I main a magsorc, well that and nightblade. And magsorc is insanely strong rn because of the heal on the ward. Either nerf the heal to 7% or 8% of max magicka, or remove the heal entirely or make it a HoT. Right now all you have to do as a magsorc is cast hardened ward twice or thrice and youre back to full hp and fully shielded ontop of that, too easy.

xylena_lazarow · July 5

olsborg wrote: »

I main a magsorc, well that and nightblade. And magsorc is insanely strong rn because of the heal on the ward.

This says a lot, you know things are crazy when MagSorc is insanely strong compared to Nightblade.

Bushido2513 · July 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Think it speaks volumes when its 10 players as the example for stopping 1 sorc.

To be fair I did say just two could do it.

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

Ward is a single target heal, really not an issue when we have groups running around cyro stacking all manner of heals on each other. That's what actually makes players hard to kill.

This

xylena_lazarow · July 5

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This

They're running Warding Contingency to stack with Hardened Ward in groups, so now they have a gigantic overpowered shield stack that pseudo cross heals, removing one of their few remaining weaknesses.

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

That's more movement and los then I would consider as casually tanking 5 to 6 people. I believe a few players could do the same on different classes. Not saying ward is strong but just that I wouldn't call this casual tanking.

Are we even watching the same clip? Don’t downplay his tankiness. Movement was just a part of it, demonstrating his excellent mobility. There were many instances where he stood in the middle of the fight for several seconds face tanking damage.

StaticWave · July 6

Watch Pelican’s 1vX on his tanky Warden,
Then watch Ulopi’s 1vX on his magsorc, and tell me if it isn’t different:

Warden:

https://youtu.be/u7GlVGFiouk?si=DTkVgUEX5ZGg-ywQ

Magsorc:

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=yXqDuDycLpYG5sNK

How is it that a Warden, a supposedly tankier class, is kiting MORE than a magsorc, a supposedly squishier class.

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

That's more movement and los then I would consider as casually tanking 5 to 6 people. I believe a few players could do the same on different classes. Not saying ward is strong but just that I wouldn't call this casual tanking.

Are we even watching the same clip? Don’t downplay his tankiness. Movement was just a part of it, demonstrating his excellent mobility. There were many instances where he stood in the middle of the fight for several seconds face tanking damage.

So I went back again and watched it and I didn't find any instance where the player stood still. What I did see at most was that at some points there were 4 or so players around him and he didn't los but he would roll dodge quite often, jump around to make targeting him harder, and change directions. There are also moments when you can see that there's too much pressure and he moves to los rather than dying.

I didn't see anything that made me say wow this player just can't be killed and is pretty much clowning players of his own skill level.

To be clear when you say face tanking damage I want to see a player not even moving, not roll dodging, just taking it from multiple players with no need other than to cast ward. When this happens I'll be right there saying okay we need to do something.

Bushido2513 · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Watch Pelican’s 1vX on his tanky Warden,
Then watch Ulopi’s 1vX on his magsorc, and tell me if it isn’t different:

Warden:

https://youtu.be/u7GlVGFiouk?si=DTkVgUEX5ZGg-ywQ

Magsorc:

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=yXqDuDycLpYG5sNK

How is it that a Warden, a supposedly tankier class, is kiting MORE than a magsorc, a supposedly squishier class.

The variables are going to be the build on the warden and the enemies chasing the warden. Warden build could be designed to do max aoe damage but require kiting and funneling enemies. Also the enemies chasing the warden just might have had more damage.

There's one thing I always remember a youtuber saying about 1vx and I laugh because I personally found it to be so true. Some days you'll be able to handle 7 people and it's all good, some days you'll fight 2 people have 0 chance.

I don't know that this is the case of the video comparison here but I can't also say for sure that the players in the video were under the same pressure.

IncultaWolf · July 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

So why then is your fun more important than mine?

It's not. Me having god mode would not affect you at all. Therefore, I deserve god mode.

Tcholl wrote: »

Players are treating sorcs, the same way they treat tanks

We've been focusing them with 4x ranged pressure setups, 2x Bow 2x Destro.

No other class survives remotely as long. Even full tanks sometimes melt faster. Meta warping.

I have noticed this as well, those block tanks that queue into battlegrounds and guard their relic, they are dying faster/easier than the full damage magsorcs who also hit insanely hard.

Bushido2513 · July 6

IncultaWolf wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

So why then is your fun more important than mine?

It's not. Me having god mode would not affect you at all. Therefore, I deserve god mode.

Tcholl wrote: »

Players are treating sorcs, the same way they treat tanks

We've been focusing them with 4x ranged pressure setups, 2x Bow 2x Destro.

No other class survives remotely as long. Even full tanks sometimes melt faster. Meta warping.

I have noticed this as well, those block tanks that queue into battlegrounds and guard their relic, they are dying faster/easier than the full damage magsorcs who also hit insanely hard.

Those would be either badly built block tanks or block tanks players that don't know the setup/ rotation as well. In no cp it's actually not always just the easy actually

Alchimiste1 · July 6

@Bushido2513 Who do I have to talk to about joining the SWDF ?

That is to say; The Sorcerors Ward Defense Force.

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Watch Pelican’s 1vX on his tanky Warden,
Then watch Ulopi’s 1vX on his magsorc, and tell me if it isn’t different:

Warden:

https://youtu.be/u7GlVGFiouk?si=DTkVgUEX5ZGg-ywQ

Magsorc:

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=yXqDuDycLpYG5sNK

How is it that a Warden, a supposedly tankier class, is kiting MORE than a magsorc, a supposedly squishier class.

The variables are going to be the build on the warden and the enemies chasing the warden. Warden build could be designed to do max aoe damage but require kiting and funneling enemies. Also the enemies chasing the warden just might have had more damage.

There's one thing I always remember a youtuber saying about 1vx and I laugh because I personally found it to be so true. Some days you'll be able to handle 7 people and it's all good, some days you'll fight 2 people have 0 chance.

I don't know that this is the case of the video comparison here but I can't also say for sure that the players in the video were under the same pressure.

Warden:

Bloodspawn, Mech Acuity, Rallying Cry

Sorc:

Wretched, Crafty, Chudan, DDF

In both videos the players are kiting and tanking multiple people. The fact that a magsorc is tanking 5-6 ppl without Rallying Cry and not having to kite as much while the Warden has to cling to every LoS he can find is just absurd.

I know this for a fact too because on my stamsorc I play exactly the same as the Warden. No shield = susceptible to burst = have to kite more. No other class can have that luxury.

StaticWave · July 6

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

That's more movement and los then I would consider as casually tanking 5 to 6 people. I believe a few players could do the same on different classes. Not saying ward is strong but just that I wouldn't call this casual tanking.

Are we even watching the same clip? Don’t downplay his tankiness. Movement was just a part of it, demonstrating his excellent mobility. There were many instances where he stood in the middle of the fight for several seconds face tanking damage.

So I went back again and watched it and I didn't find any instance where the player stood still. What I did see at most was that at some points there were 4 or so players around him and he didn't los but he would roll dodge quite often, jump around to make targeting him harder, and change directions. There are also moments when you can see that there's too much pressure and he moves to los rather than dying.

I didn't see anything that made me say wow this player just can't be killed and is pretty much clowning players of his own skill level.

To be clear when you say face tanking damage I want to see a player not even moving, not roll dodging, just taking it from multiple players with no need other than to cast ward. When this happens I'll be right there saying okay we need to do something.

You don’t see anything that makes you say wow, and that’s ok too, but don’t make up an impossible scenario (face tanking without moving on a full damage build), then saying that’s the criteria to judge a skill’s strength. That’s an absurd and disingenuous argument.

You said it yourself: “Let it bake”. Well, it’s been 6 months and the majority of people are fed up with magsorcs. I think a lot has been baked already. If magsorc wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be multiple threads created by different ppl asking for Ward nerf. In fact, this change should’ve never gone live if you actually have any semblance of balance in mind when talking about class balancing.

I think my point has been clear enough and people who still defend this skill, like you, are just in denial. We can stop arguing here because everything ppl say you just dismiss lol. It’s so hard to have an argument with you when you just circle around and move the goal post as needed.

StaticWave · July 6

@Bushido2513

And what I find most funny about your entire stance from the beginning is that you spent 15+ pages arguing with me when you haven’t even experienced the shield buff yet.

Can you believe that? Arguing with me who did the testing and gave feedback on day 1, and continuing to argue with me for a week after U40 patch went live and hearing from me that people are complaining about sorc on the live server, when you have not experienced what the shield change was like lol. Then several months later when magsorc has been baking and more people are complaining on the forums compared to the first few days of my thread, you still deny and move the goal post.

Let’s face it, magsorc is broken right now and the forums have more people agreeing with that than before. The forums is also a small part of the population disliking magsorc. The majority of players in game don’t like this change because it’s too strong. Even if Zabagad demonstrated a spike in Sorc population in Cyrodiil in U40 and 1st month of U41, you’re still going to dismiss that fact because you have this weird idea of “balancing around zergs”, when ironically you’re a solo PvPer.

All I see is you don’t want Ward nerfed because it affects you, and you’re using that idea to mask your actual agenda. If you truly didn’t care, you wouldn’t be commenting on every Ward thread and arguing against the ppl who want Ward nerfed lol.

Zabagad · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

StaticWave · July 6

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Show me a clip of Ulopi tanking in the open against 5-6 opponents during the patches when magsorc was bad.

StaticWave · July 6

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Also I don't exactly get your point. Are you willing to sacrifice class balance just to raise the floor?

The allure of magsorc is its high skill ceiling. You raise the floor and the class becomes a generic tanky class. I get that Ulopi is an outlier but if he does fine without the change then he is fine when it gets nerfed too. He's unaffected basically. What gets affected is low-skilled magsorc who now can't crutch on this skill to stay alive anymore. Isn't that better than having a bunch of tanky wannabe magsorcs?

Pelanora · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Also I don't exactly get your point. Are you willing to sacrifice class balance just to raise the floor?

What gets affected is low-skilled magsorc who now can't crutch on this skill to stay alive anymore.

Wow lol one really has to remember it's about pvp when reading comments like this, to understand them.

So back to front from what a pve comment would be.

Turtle_Bot · July 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

I never understand these kind of comments.

Ulopi did that since U29 or even longer - he is for sure one of the Top 5 on PC/EU. (I'm not able to rank them in a perfect order, but I would guess he is just behind Malcolm as #2)
With that kind of proof you could prove any class OP.

Show me a clip of Ulopi tanking in the open against 5-6 opponents during the patches when magsorc was bad.

How about first hand experience of someone who has played against him (and more recently on the same alliance as him) for nearly 10 years now?

I can say with certainty that Ulopi has been doing the stuff shown in those clips (and not just on sorc) for years now (and against better players than were in those clips). I have even been on the receiving end of it over the years, countless times.

One time that will always stick with me, is back in Elswyr chapter, he solo wiped my entire group (7 of us) on his own, on his NB (a supposedly "dead" class at that time). None of us could get him to half health, let alone get him as close to dying as he got in all of the clips in that video.
He is actually just that good. None of the casuals/zergs want to fight him unless they can bring the entire faction with them.

In terms of magsorc specifically, I would probably say Malcolm is slightly ahead of Ulopi, but Ulopi plays all classes at that top level, so overall I would probably rate Ulopi higher in terms of overall skill.

There's only really been 1 player (stamsorc main) on PC EU that I can recall was as good at the game as Ulopi is, but they haven't played since U36 (and they barely played in U35). They taught me a lot about stamsorc and helped me become competent enough on stamsorc despite being a magsorc main, to play the class even though sorc was in such a sorry state in those patches.

Pelanora · July 6

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

Turtle_Bot · July 6

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

StaticWave · July 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What is it that makes him so good, @Turtle_Bot? Just super fast reactions?

It's a combination of basically everything:
- Super fast reactions
- Knowledge of the game in general
- Knowledge of all classes, strengths/weaknesses/capabilities etc.
- Awareness
- Target priority
- Decision making
And probably most important, an insane amount of time/practice developing/maintaining those skills (and more).

He also plays very confidently because he has developed those skills.

And I can tell you he won't be able to do the same on stamsorc this patch. I'm a stamsorc main who can do pretty much everything he does, and the moment I swap to magsorc it felt night and day.

Almost all my fights are easier. I can survive combos that I normally wouldn't be able to on stamsorc. I don't need to kite as often unless overwhelmingly outnumbered because I can tank more. I can also just slot Hurricane and get the same mobility as stamsorc. It feels unfair to have a class that is good at almost everything.

Pelanora · July 6

And @StaticWave all you changed was points over into mag and added wards?

StaticWave · July 6

Pelanora wrote: »

And @StaticWave all you changed was points over into mag and added wards?

I ran the current meta magsorc build with Crafty/Wretched/Chudan/DDF and this skill:

On my stamsorc I have to run Rallying Cry to be tanky enough in PvP. Either a defensive set or 40k-43k HP to survive.

StaticWave · July 6

This was my HPS in a duel vs a proc plar:

15.6k Ward with Major Vitality and 7.3k crit Ward heal.

With Healing Soul my stamsorc will have around 13-14k crit burst heal. 14k crit burst heal vs a 15.6k Ward + 7.3k crit burst heal? Not even a fair comparison lol. You'd have to throw a 5k shield on that 14k crit burst heal to make it fair.