Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

StaticWave · July 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The point is that this is a tank meta and you get the choice to build for damage but in my experience even when you do yes of course you're going to get kills but sadly this game will also give you a lot of straight up stalemates because people don't like dying.

At some point if everyone can easily build not to die then you're mostly killing people that didn't build correctly or just don't have much skill. Of course now and then you get flights that are more evenly matched but there's less of that then there is gvg it xv1.

So yes for some people you need the extra damage to put them down but a lot of times it's a case where you were probably going to kill them with or without the extra damage. At least for me that's what I've observed. The extra damage just becomes convenient so that I can end the right y quicker

So I suppose these days I'm not worried about if I can't kill someone because if they really don't want to die I won't be able to kill them. Them also having damage doesn't bother me as much because I'm built for 1vx so they won't be able to kill me either.

But yeah if you're the kind of person that wants to be able to try to kill everyone that isn't a tank then yeah I could see the issue.

I am perfectly okay with stalemating against someone that has zero damage. I've run into many of them in Cyrodiil, IC, BG, and even dueling (yes, some people do no damage in duels).

What I'm not okay with is stalemating against a class that's in FULL damage and is still as tanky as me. It literally does not make any sense. Even on NB or Warden, I still have to build some defense to soak up damage (Rallying Cry, 27-28k resistances). The Sorcs I've fought have consistently taken large damage values from me (3.5k-4k light attacks, 7-8k Crystal Weapon). These values are clear indicators that they are running a full damage build with practically zero investments into defensive stats, yet they can still stalemate a fight if they choose to. It makes no sense how they don't die despite eating those values.

I can guarantee you if I fight any other class and hitting them for 3.5-4k light attacks, the fight is going to end within 30s lol. This is the kind of imbalance I am talking about. Not what you're describing. Let's be real here, of course everyone can build tanky and stalemate, but can you name me 1 class other than magsorc that's doing it in full damage gear?

xylena_lazarow · July 3

StaticWave wrote: »

What I'm not okay with is stalemating against a class that's in FULL damage and is still as tanky as me... I can guarantee you if I fight any other class and hitting them for 3.5-4k light attacks

I remember arguing with a Sorc a while back, before Ward, about whether StamSorc should be considered "tanky" versus "survivable." To me this is splitting hairs, just press buttons? But I guess I get it now, if you don't press buttons on your Sorc, your Sorc does die pretty fast, unlike all the passively tanky bricks you see around. So no matter how overpowered Ward is, simply pressing one button is far beyond a lot of players in this game. That's why I deserve god mode.

divnyi · July 3

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

But I guess I get it now, if you don't press buttons on your Sorc, your Sorc does die pretty fast, unlike all the passively tanky bricks you see around.

But the funniest thing is, you can make a brick out of magsorc (which is one of my builds) and it will absolutely outperform other forms of bricks. 33k armor unbuffed and I have access to both major/minor resolve, good luck getting past my wards. I don't even run streak because I can just walk out of things without holding sprint.

Syrusthevirus187 · July 4

Mag Sorc is fun now

xylena_lazarow · July 4

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

Mag Sorc is fun now

God mode is fun too.

Tcholl · July 4

Could you kindly explain to us how is sorc more fun now compared to before the Ward buff? Do you believe it got a huge boost to survivibility while retaining all the damage and everything else? Or maybe it is because it was a game changer for you and maybe all the sorcs in pvp as well? All of them? Please, I am very interested to read.

Syrusthevirus187 · July 4

It didn't have a good heal before, and now it does. Need a good heal in pvp, and good damage.
It might actually be that simple.
All classes should be strong and fun to play.

Tcholl · July 4

Ok, so we have a simple solution here. Removing the massive shield of up to 72 percent of the max health and leave the heal only. It would work just like every other heal in the game.

Alchimiste1 · July 4

Jsmalls wrote: »

I still stand by my statement outside of setups with 60k magicka or 50k with rallying cry, this mechanic is not Overtuned.

The 60k magicka setup while still a threat is far from optimal damage.

The rallying cry setup is just carried by a really strong setup that offers unmatched offensive and defensive combination.

Go fight an average Mag Sorc with 45-50k magicka then go fight a top tier Sorc with the same. There will be a significant difference between the two defensively.

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

numbers don't match up
math isn't mathing

Tcholl · July 4

No, the issue with the Ward is related to any decent build. If you play daily pvp, as I do, it will be impossible not to note lots of ppl chasing sorcs ALL the time. If more than 10 players cannot kill one player, how in the world will any other player using a different class be remotely competitive?

If you play against a sorc, which will eventually pop ward either to keep health and shield full or to get back from execute, you will understand why this is an issue.

What all the sorcs defending this change dont understand is that most ppl dont want to fight them anymore. Players are treating sorcs, the same way they treat tanks (at least those have a purpose). Either, dealing with them in groups or ignoring them so they will not be stuck in combat to deal with a player that cannot be killed with their damage output.

Players are not stupid and learn by experience. No one wants to fight PvP against players that refuse to die like everyone else.

Nharimlur_Finor · July 4

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think if people look at the root causes of problems with this game they'd be less inclined to attack the symptoms.

This is not a problem. Simply reporting symptoms to the devs is the most efficient course of action.

Why are you reporting symptoms to the devs? Do you honestly think that they made a mistake with this?

Your approach to this has been from a PvP player's perspective. I'm sure that ZOS are planning to their business requirements; not just the requirements of PvP players. You can't possibly know what ZOS' overall goal is with this change.

I didn't buy Gold Road, so the whole scribing carrot isn't dangling before my nosering. But comments made by ZOS, here at these forums suggest that the whole package of scribing functionality is yet to be released. Therefore, a logical assumption that could be made, is that some new scribing element(s) may address the 'symptoms' of this change that you appear to hate so much.

I'm having fun with this change.
So why then is your fun more important than mine?

xylena_lazarow · July 5

LaintalAy wrote: »

So why then is your fun more important than mine?

It's not. Me having god mode would not affect you at all. Therefore, I deserve god mode.

Tcholl wrote: »

Players are treating sorcs, the same way they treat tanks

We've been focusing them with 4x ranged pressure setups, 2x Bow 2x Destro.

No other class survives remotely as long. Even full tanks sometimes melt faster. Meta warping.

TechMaybeHic · July 5

Tanks are at least usually slow and low damage. These high mag sorcs you pretty much have to zerg across the map or they come back and try to combo someone. As someone who runs in a group with players from a wide range of skill sets; there's not a lot of choice

Tcholl · July 5

I believe many players have the same impression and the game must be FUN for ALL.

As per scribing, you can make a shield with heal skill but it will not come even CLOSE to ward. Maybe, one solution would be to put ward on par with the damage/heal from contigency for example.

Bushido2513 · July 5

StaticWave wrote: »

I can guarantee you if I fight any other class and hitting them for 3.5-4k light attacks, the fight is going to end within 30s lol. This is the kind of imbalance I am talking about. Not what you're describing. Let's be real here, of course everyone can build tanky and stalemate, but can you name me 1 class other than magsorc that's doing it in full damage gear?

Ok so I get what you're saying about full damage builds having tankiness, there's not much question to that. If you hit another class with those numbers they may or may not die depending on their build I guess I'm looking at bigger picture possibilities and how this is ultimately going to end. Every time something like this happens players build to adapt to the issue while complaining about it ZOS and eventually something changes.

People either start playing sorcs till people get bored and just change classes due to boredom if nothing else. This same thing happened in the past with templar, dk, nb, warden when they each got their buff cycles Or ZOS will come back and nerf this change or buff some other class and rinse repeat.

I can see your point and probably what I'm saying is that I see what you don't like about it even though it doesn't bother me all that much.

Though at the same time I do want to be clear. It sounds like you are being stalemated? So even though they have this damage you're not dying to them it's just that they have damage while not also dying to you? Don't get me wrong, it sounds boring and I'd just move on but I'm wanting to make sure I understand what you're running into.

Bushido2513 · July 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What I'm not okay with is stalemating against a class that's in FULL damage and is still as tanky as me... I can guarantee you if I fight any other class and hitting them for 3.5-4k light attacks

I remember arguing with a Sorc a while back, before Ward, about whether StamSorc should be considered "tanky" versus "survivable." To me this is splitting hairs, just press buttons? But I guess I get it now, if you don't press buttons on your Sorc, your Sorc does die pretty fast, unlike all the passively tanky bricks you see around. So no matter how overpowered Ward is, simply pressing one button is far beyond a lot of players in this game. That's why I deserve god mode.

Well god mode is different things depending on what you're playing. So to be clear do you just not want to die or do you want to not die while also being able to just kill players with one button?

Also god mode is traditionally given against npcs who aren't usually able to lodge complaints. I thin we can really only give you god mode in a sandbox with npcs and not other players otherwise we have to give them god mode and if we give everyone god mode then we're just back where we started.

Bushido2513 · July 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

Mag Sorc is fun now

God mode is fun too.

For a short while then most tend to get bored. Also it's usually only fun when one person gets it and other don't, kind of like the hammer. So yes it's fun but maybe look at the bigger picture down the road?

Bushido2513 · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

No, the issue with the Ward is related to any decent build. If you play daily pvp, as I do, it will be impossible not to note lots of ppl chasing sorcs ALL the time. If more than 10 players cannot kill one player, how in the world will any other player using a different class be remotely competitive?

If you play against a sorc, which will eventually pop ward either to keep health and shield full or to get back from execute, you will understand why this is an issue.

What all the sorcs defending this change dont understand is that most ppl dont want to fight them anymore. Players are treating sorcs, the same way they treat tanks (at least those have a purpose). Either, dealing with them in groups or ignoring them so they will not be stuck in combat to deal with a player that cannot be killed with their damage output.

Players are not stupid and learn by experience. No one wants to fight PvP against players that refuse to die like everyone else.

If 10 players chase a player and can't kill that player then those players just weren't equipped to get that kill. I'll tell you right now that two players with proper setups could likely kill that same 1 player. I'm not necessarily defending ward but more so just saying this needs to be looked at with perspective.

There are many example of setups and tactics I could name that would allow players to coordinate and kill any given sorc so it's not just that 10 people can't kill one but more so about which 10 players you're talking about. I think it's probably more fun to be a magsorc right now especially depending on how many player you run into that don't know how to handle you.

Bushido2513 · July 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So why then is your fun more important than mine?

It's not. Me having god mode would not affect you at all. Therefore, I deserve god mode.
.[/quote]

I totally support your own solo campain/eso instance with this.

Bushido2513 · July 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Tanks are at least usually slow and low damage. These high mag sorcs you pretty much have to zerg across the map or they come back and try to combo someone. As someone who runs in a group with players from a wide range of skill sets; there's not a lot of choice

Places like this are where we come into a weird grey area. When sorcs come into contact with mid or low skill players it can really make ward seem like a bit much. At the same time though coordinated and specific attacks from a decent group would likely kill sorcs that are an issue. So I can see how in one case ward is op and in another case it's just that groups of players don't now how to work together or build correctly to handle it.

xylena_lazarow · July 5

Bushido2513 wrote: »

For a short while then most tend to get bored.

Still waiting for players to get bored of Hardened Ward. Not gonna happen. Gamers are craven. You see, my playstyle is having god mode. ZOS said I could play how I want. I will never get bored of having god mode. It has to be on the main campaign, the one with Bushido on it. That's my playstyle. Respect my playstyle.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

At the same time though coordinated and specific attacks from a decent group would likely kill sorcs that are an issue.

On a less satirical note, I mentioned in one of these other threads that my group has been using 4x minmax single target ranged pressure setups, 2x Bow 2x Destro, to focus down MagSorcs, and they still survive longer than actual tanks, while teleporting around the field and doing huge burst damage from max range the entire time.

Tcholl · July 5

@Bushido2513

Have you played PvP lately and which kind? Cyro? BG? IC? What is your faction? Do you play in any ballgroup?

I play on Greyhost PC/NA every campaign for the covenant, run in a ballgroup 6 hours minimum per week on a optimized comp, play almost daily in cyro and bg solo. I have a good idea of what builds work and have a pretty good notion of what I am talking about.

You are missing the point and by far.

The issue is that Ward is too strong right now and this is making killing ANY sorc with ANY decent build VERY HARD and this is not the way to play PvP. (you can note by the subject of this post: Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier). This is not my personal opinion, as you can notice on this and other threads.

So, what is already happening is that all the non sorc players are either avoiding sorcs or dealing with them in groups. Other players are just jumping on the sorc band (specially bgs) and there are so many sorcs now that ppl in Reddit calls the game Elder Sorcs Online.

It is not a question of build or set. The problems is giving a class with huge mobility a tool to keep reseting the fight and bail. No one wants to engage with someone just to be stuck in combat since you cannot kill them.

Ward as it is do not have a place in PvP and also does not make sense in PvE.

Bushido2513 · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

@Bushido2513

Have you played PvP lately and which kind? Cyro? BG? IC? What is your faction? Do you play in any ballgroup?

I play on Greyhost PC/NA every campaign for the covenant, run in a ballgroup 6 hours minimum per week on a optimized comp, play almost daily in cyro and bg solo. I have a good idea of what builds work and have a pretty good notion of what I am talking about.

You are missing the point and by far.

The issue is that Ward is too strong right now and this is making killing ANY sorc with ANY decent build VERY HARD and this is not the way to play PvP. (you can note by the subject of this post: Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier). This is not my personal opinion, as you can notice on this and other threads.

So, what is already happening is that all the non sorc players are either avoiding sorcs or dealing with them in groups. Other players are just jumping on the sorc band (specially bgs) and there are so many sorcs now that ppl in Reddit calls the game Elder Sorcs Online.

It is not a question of build or set. The problems is giving a class with huge mobility a tool to keep reseting the fight and bail. No one wants to engage with someone just to be stuck in combat since you cannot kill them.

Ward as it is do not have a place in PvP and also does not make sense in PvE.

Yes I've played this patch and I play solo mostly in BGs and IC with some Cyro main campaign when it's working correctly.

So be serious and think for a second and answer this. If I give you 10 players of your choosing are you telling me that short of an invis potion that there's any one sorc that could get away from you?

So here's my background and why I'm so sure about what I'm saying. I've mained sorc for some years now and before this patch I got to a point where on magsorc I was very hard to kill. This was due to my build and how I played and I could still get a decent KD ratio.

That being said I was always killable by certain players who were just really good at running me down with coordinated damage skills. This was regardless of me playing a flat out sorc tank or just a tanky sorc. So I know just how possible it is for the right coordinated group of players to kill a sorc if they really want to. It can even be as few as two players believe it or not.

So I'll give a few examples. If you and your friends really want to kill any given sorc just start with something you can root spam on then make sure to give yourself as much movement speed as you can. Your whole group doesn't actually have to be fast just one or a few of you so that you can keep track of the sorc and hit them with roots, a nb is good for this actually. Then have two plars or even one plar ready with a meteor / javeline combo or just pure beam spam.

The point is that if 10 people really want to kill a player and are capable of doing so then short of porting out of the campaign or invis pots that player will die.

Ward's power drops off fairly quickly as you add more players.

Another one, 10 people with knight slayer and expedition plus swift jewelry and roots, that sorc will die lol. My point is not to say that anyone should or needs to run in these configs. My point is to say that sorc is very killable with coordinated attacks from players that are properly skilled/equipped.

Yes they have mobility but I can personally tell you that short of jumping a ledge that players can't reach, you can easily build to catch a sorc if you want. I mean if you really want to just go after a sorc and probably kill them build tanky with a gap closer and knight slayer. If there are other players around you'll likely eventually kill them at some point. There's just so many ways to be honest but yes it requires coordination and numbers. Killing a sorc solo or with improper damage is likely just going to be a stalemate.

StaticWave · July 5

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

TechMaybeHic · July 5

Think it speaks volumes when its 10 players as the example for stopping 1 sorc.

Tcholl · July 5

So @Bushido2513 , with all due respect, your personal experience is limited to solo play and you cannot give a lecture based on your own experience.

I apologize, but I will not go back and forth with you, since you do not stick to the post subject which is: Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

You insist in bringing scenarios without making any valid point regarding the skill WARD or how other skills compare. This is not an argument about skill of players or again your own experience.

Tcholl · July 5

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

Tnx for bringing a video to ilustrate what many players here are trying to point out.

Bushido2513 · July 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Think it speaks volumes when its 10 players as the example for stopping 1 sorc.

To be fair I did say just two could do it.

Bushido2513 · July 5

StaticWave wrote: »

https://youtu.be/wIWmuWTQDg8?si=6mzdGb_AH0IlO5IS

Ulopi casually tanking 5-6 ppl on magsorc. For a class that’s ranged and has excellent mobility, does it look fair to also have tankiness?

That's more movement and los then I would consider as casually tanking 5 to 6 people. I believe a few players could do the same on different classes. Not saying ward is strong but just that I wouldn't call this casual tanking.

Bushido2513 · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

So @Bushido2513 , with all due respect, your personal experience is limited to solo play and you cannot give a lecture based on your own experience.

I apologize, but I will not go back and forth with you, since you do not stick to the post subject which is: Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

You insist in bringing scenarios without making any valid point regarding the skill WARD or how other skills compare. This is not an argument about skill of players or again your own experience.

Well I just tried to answer the question but it also sounds like I just don't find ward to be as problematic as you do. Also just because I play solo doesn't mean I'm not involved in larger fights, that actually happens quite often. Ward just isn't causing me as much of a problem as it seems to cause you but to be fair I feel the same way about a lot of things that are in this game that need to be adjusted.

So perhaps it's better to say that ward in context of what the game is to this date isn't overly strong to me. If the game as a whole were balanced I could see ward getting adjusted. I say that to be fair and honest that perhaps my low expectations of the game and desire to just adapt are coloring how harshly I am affected by this change.