Why does PvP only appeal to a niche group of players?

Ye_Olde_Crowe · May 21

I used to play shooters competitively back in the days… CS, DoD, TF, RO, UT, Q3A …you name it. But I’m old and stressed out and I just don’t want competitive play anymore - my game time is for relaxing. So while I still play stuff like CS, R6S and Sandstorm, I just do PvE, either alone or with a bunch of other old hags and warlocks.

I‘ve been predominantly soloing ESO since I started playing, and while I have dabbled in most types of content (except Trials, because people), PvP is something I rarely do. I played some Tribute PvP, sometimes I do Battlegrounds and IC, but since I finished the story content of IC, Iusually just go there for events. Too stressful for my taste.
AvAvA in Cyro is my favorite type of ESO PvP. It never feels stressful or personal, you don‘t have to group or communicate, and I like to revisit the region for nostalgic reasons.

Vulkunne · May 21

These days I don't do much in Cyrodiil other than try to keep my T1's flowing, this is mainly because I have perhaps too many characters and need to make better builds for all of them

.

I think life is a challenge, life is truly a battlefield, and we have to fight every day to live our lives. With that said, I enjoy a good fight and am in general, not against challenging myself to greater things. Although in fairness this is something that can go awry if one isn't careful. I've always enjoyed PvP related content from ESO as well as other games. Also enjoy PvE with a group. This is where things are getting kind of weird, however.

In years past, earlier ESO history, PvP seemed more group oriented and friendly. Soloing was just something few people did until it became the thing everyone now does, including myself. Its very interesting how that shift happened over time. I know many still run in groups however the only serious threat from a group in Cyrodiil at least is from a ball group and when they're around, there is no competing with them. The lines are swiftly demolished, and PvPing stops.

I think Ball Groups and the way they just completely dominate people trying to PvP is very selfish. I don't have a good opinion of them lol I'm sorry but not sorry. The spirit of the game is very important to me but when you have something like a ball group running a keep being unstoppable for hours, that's just tacky. Its like they're mocking the rest of us and that sort of deal is not what I signed up for.

That said, I do enjoy Battlegrounds, 1v1, 1v2, I can also successfully PvP with sword and board. I know everyone has their favorite destro staff or beam they like to use but um that's just another thing I don't see the point to. Like in Cyrodiil, there could be a couple of us PvPing and a ball group shows up with some fighting us and 6 or 7 or more standing in the back just beaming everyone down. I mean c'mon.

Sometimes PvP isn't as bad as the way it's being played by others trying to abuse things in order to avoiding meeting a challenge. Kind of like how sometimes streamers get harassed by bombers and so forth, watching them ... from their online stream. That said, I enjoy ESO PvP but as they add more features to the game it seems to be going more and more off the rails with cheesy damage builds and unassailable ball groups making life miserable for everyone around them.

LucyferLightbringer · May 21

For me it is just to much of a pain in the backside. Even if i was willing to grind separate gear set, and separate skillset, I am definately not willing to drag it around with me in my inventory at all times in case i ever feel like pvping, then manually switch builds, champion points and sets. Inventory is way to small and limited for it. And armory is already taken by tank/dps build.
For someone like me who would PvP occasionally it is just way to inconvenient, so i just don't PvP at all.

Four_Fingers · May 21

I find my PvP builds do just fine in PvE so no switching all the time.
That is probably because of the lower difficulty of PvE.

StihlReign · May 21

Desiato wrote: »

In any case, I'm not going to continue derailing this thread with this back and forth tangent that's largely irrelevant.

Desiato wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

No they didn't. We leveled and hit VR10 so quickly, in Craglorn, the devs had to make adjustments to the experience gains.

Craglorn wasn't a launch zone.

I didn't say it was. It was a vet zone and they had to make adjustments because we were gaining exp at crazy levels. VR10-12

StihlReign · May 21

spartaxoxo wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

It was marketed and understood to be a PvP game supported by PvE. The two were designed and understood to be inextricably linked.

They literally said we could play how we wanted. I never viewed it as inextricably linked. It was PvP if you want or don't. Play with others or by yourself. Just do whatever you want to do.

It was viewed as inextricably linked, and functioned this way as well. What was done in PvP affected buffs for everyone in PvE, which often served as an impetus for players to "get to Cyrodiil and fight" so their buffs were in place for trial runs (and also spurred a massive Buff Server Controversy).

Guilds (especially large ones) had a vested interest in what was happening in Cyrodiil, who was Emp and what keeps and scrolls were held.

StihlReign · May 21

deleted

Ragnarok0130 · May 21

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

This is a single player franchise that the devs tried to make into an MMO which included PVP - it was marketed as having PVP as an important part but it wasn't marketed as solely a "PVP game" - this is evident by not only the marketing but the fact that PVP was restricted to Cyro at launch. It's the same exact reason why PVP failed in FO76 because most players of a single player RPG aren't looking for PVP - especially in the open world where they just wanted to quest and not be randomly killed like in FO76 at launch - they want more of what they are used to - questing, rich story and fun, not being ROFLstomped by a min/maxxed PVP player interrupting their questing. This is a big thing for the PVE guys who want to experience the Cryo or IC story line but hate getting repeatedly ganked. In ESO PVP is restricted to Cyro and later BGs so there is a wall between the two groups but those who just want to play an RPG aren't looking to PVP in any form and resent having to PVP to participate in an event.

I like to raid and periodically enjoy PVP so I'm not one of those staunch anti-PVP guys but we can't ignore the fact that the TES games have decades of expectations from the player base and PVP isn't one of them, but I understand their umbrage. As a raider I had to PVP to unlock specific support skills just like PVPers have to PVE for certain armor sets. I think both parties would be happy if they could get what they need by doing their preferred content. Of course the drawback to that is that people might miss out on something they end up enjoying like in my case Cyro PVP.

DaniimalsSF · May 21

Here’s my background and take.

My two previous all time favorite games are Morrowind and WOW. After Morrowind I’ve only been interested in RPG games. I love building characters and an open world setting. After WOW I’ve only been interested in MMOs. I’m not very social, but can never go back to a completely scripted game world. I love the chaos that other players bring. I’ve now been playing ESO since Morrowind expansion. After playing ESO I’m only interested in PVP games. I love the dynamic nature of PVP.

ESO tries to do a very wide range of things and pulls off most things very well. This leads to a very wide range of players. Not everyone can be pleased. Unfortunately many humans are very self centered. Thus the forums are full of discussions similar to this thread.

Play how you want to play and don’t stress about what others are doing. Engage with them if it seems interesting and ignore them if you’re not interested.

ellmarie · May 21

I actually think it's fun when you're playing with a guild or a group and working together as a team. But I'm just not good at it. I've tried to make builds, but I think it's just me not understanding the play style. PVE for me is just my speed.

spartaxoxo · May 21

StihlReign wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

It was marketed and understood to be a PvP game supported by PvE. The two were designed and understood to be inextricably linked.

They literally said we could play how we wanted. I never viewed it as inextricably linked. It was PvP if you want or don't. Play with others or by yourself. Just do whatever you want to do.

It was viewed as inextricably linked, and functioned this way as well. What was done in PvP affected buffs for everyone in PvE, which often served as an impetus for players to "get to Cyrodiil and fight" so their buffs were in place for trial runs (and also spurred a massive Buff Server Controversy).

Guilds (especially large ones) had a vested interest in what was happening in Cyrodiil, who was Emp and what keeps and scrolls were held.

It was viewed that way by a minority of players. I'm not saying there was no links. But, many people just kept to PvE. And the devs encouraged people to play they wanted to play. That so much of their playerbase focused on PvE alone is likely a major factor into why PvP support became so little .

Tandor · May 21

ToRelax wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

THe game was never marketed as a PvP game. Yes, Cyrodiil was noted as part of the game, but there is plenty of developer-created material that was out before the game launched showing the PvE because PvE was and is the main focus of ESO.

While not designed as solely PvP, it was absolutely more focused on it at launch. There existed essentially no PvE endgame. Meanwhile there were 10 or so campaigns and most skill lines clearly designed around PvP.
This absolutely was reflected in the marketing, with the early trailers all depicting the player avatars fighting one another in the PvP zone.

I don't get how this is in question at all. It's not like the PvE focused players who complained about lack of content at the time would agree with this.

It's standard in most MMORPGs for there to be a shortage of PvE content at launch, it takes far more development time to add more and developers either underestimate the ability of players to rattle through the PvE content and/or have to release early for financial pressures. Meanwhile it's not that there is endgame PvP content at launch, or for that matter later, rather that the initial PvP content is playable throughout the game including when players have completed the initial PvE content.

Durham · May 21

PVP is AVA, not PVP and it is good in this game. If you give it a chance. People go about it wrong.

Please do not go PVP without joining a PVP guild and getting into coms and learning the specifics of PVP. This is a group-oriented game take advantage of it.

1. You can join a large PVP guild and go out and Zerg it up. Yes, you will die a lot but you will enjoy this at times. You can go out and test builds and get in Chat with guildies. This is a good way to learn PVP.
2. Small group or a small PVP guild. To me, this is the most fun. You play what you want to play and group with a solid 2 - 5 people in coms. This does require a deeper understanding of PVP mechanics and and usually something that you grow into. This might earn you the title of a sweaty.
3. The last option is a organized ball group. This option gives you the least freedom and control of what you want to do. You are given certain roles and builds to run. This is the most broken aspect of PVP, as it's the most advantaged way to play. Unless you are fighting other ball groups

This will also earn you the title of sweaty with other ball groups. This is another fun way to PVP.
4. Finally you can solo play as a nightblade. (non group)

This style of PVP is about the player and what they are looking for.

CrashTest · May 21

I enjoy competitive games, but I don't like ESO PvP bc Cyro is mostly just zerg or ball group, BGs are all played like Deathmatch no matter the mode, and IC is just questing with PvP enabled.

The horrible lag doesn't help either.

Also, there are far too many players who run away when they're dying or they just range you down from max range.

Ravensilver · May 21

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

Nothing. There is literally nothing that will ever make me enjoy PvP. I consider it toxic and hateful and destructive to the community of players. For me, that has always been so.

Lumsdenml · May 21

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...

Personally, I've encountered more toxic people in a random vet dungeon than in cyrodiil. And for the record, been PVPing for 9 years and have never blocked anyone.

SickleCider · May 21

The combat is too unreliable, too meta-driven, and it isn't rewarding in a tactile way (it feels floaty to me). That, and I'm antisocial, and the way PVP in this game is structured necessitates lots of teamwork.

LaintalAy · May 21

Vrienda wrote: »

It's inaccessible and the skill gap is too big and blatant. I don't much like being oneshot by someone who knows what sets and what abilities combine in this particular patch to do that particular thing.
snip

This is one of the downsides of the PTS. Meta-chasing players go in and learn all the new features and changes and are then 'ahead of the pack' when the production system is updated.

The ridiculous prices for some Treasure Maps in new zones (for the associated lead) is testament to this.

darvaria · May 21

One draw back to pvp is that is always 3 sides. Even BG's. Why couldn't that make a 15v15 ab type BG or even 10v10WSG. I don't log on much because I'm sicks of always fighting 2 sides vs 1.

JUST ONE BG that is 10v10? or 15v15?
And most new players are really bad at cyro and just get 1 shot. They don't want to go back. There should have been some balancing on the gear but it's never going to happen.

barney2525 · May 22

wow.

I had a response... but if I put out my opinion I would be obligated to read the 'war and peace' Novel composed by the writers above.

so never mind

MasterSpatula · May 22

I loved PVP when the game first launched. PVP was designed against roughly balanced players fighting on an even playing field. Of course, trying to bring numbers, use the NPC guards and terrain to your advantage was part of the challenge, but largely it was equals battling equals--so much so that it was the first part of the game to implement Battle Scaling.

But over time, and particularly in the last five years, PVP has become more and more about imbalance, about seeking the fights you can't lose. Imbalance is the name of the game in PVP now. That's not just not fun to me. It's dull. Tiresome. I don't want to play in that field. I don't want to play against people who enjoy that. I don't want to team up with people who enjoy that.

Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak were the straws that broke the camels back for me, as they were for almost everyone I know who used to PVP. It's fine. There's plenty to do without it.

Daoin · May 22

because scoreboards are not for everyone and unless your just doing the daily from time to time in BG it is boring, as for cyro i am not sure as i choose not to participate in pvp there. theres also the fact pvp takes no one on one skill, you either have the right sets to use or you dont and die, personally i only bg when i need more transmutes fast and then just in pve gear, i would say i still get the daily done 1st or second time which is another reason, the pvp is just so unbalanced, in bg there just as much of a chance to get paired with new players and go up against an organized team and lose than there is to get one or 2 with the right sets that proc damage or know how to capture the relic and win against the team you lost with last match. and lastly its the pvp community...apparently at the risk of toxism you must follow the unwritten pvp rules new to eso or not

Lexalious · May 22

I like PvP as a side activity. Let me explain. I'm not like your average Cyro-virgin. I do IC or sewers or cyro or bgs whenever i want to. or even duels. Im not a competitive player either per se. I never played or enjoyed any of the actual "competitive" games.

But there is something about ESO PvP that many like. Making your own build, working on it for hours, testing for days. Slowly tweaking minor stats, like recoveries, resistances, the damage output, some skills come in some are replaced. You understand your build's strengths and weaknesses as you go. Maybe its great against tanks but weaker against gankers. Maybe you can improve some more stuff, maybe tweak some CPs? ... you get the idea.

You can't get this thrill in PvE as the most optimized, best setups are already layed out for you by pro-players, youtubers even before they hit the live servers. No room for improvement but your skills. Talking end-game pve ofcourse, otherwise yeah go ham make your own builds that can kill overland bosses the way you enjoy.

allmyxlvntx · May 22

I play more PVE than PVP but when I do go over to PVP with a proper build for it - it really is a lot of fun. Of course there are awesome players out there that beat you up. Expect that. I think my only pet peeve is the twits who hang out all day killing PVE questers in the Cyrodil towns. Ok you get AP for it, but really? My favorite is the mass battles to take keeps. Or the chase after skilled players in IC who lead you into an ambush that you survive. Or the thrill of the kill of a sneaky blade killing questers returning with TelVar. I don’t play PVP enough BUT have played the game long enough that the set stickerbook is 95% full up. Kinda cool.

averyfarmanb14_ESO · May 22

If it was just friendly competitive play, I'd be more interested. But, it's not. ESO's better than some in that PvP doesn't gate a significant amount of content, but some of it is indeed gated around PvP - I don't get to PvP, I have to PvP - and it's hard to have to do anything when you have people determined to make your day worse.

The combination of PvP-gated content and potential antagonism makes PvP a chore, not a charm, for me.

Brakkish · May 22

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...

So funny, it's for ALL of these reasons that I do nothing BUT pvp. If I'm not getting whispered at least once per match, I'm doing it wrong.

Lags · May 22

its simply just a competitive type of player vs a non competitive type of player. A lot of people in mmos just play in the most casual ways possible. those type of players are never going to take the time to go in and improve at pvp. if anything they will go into pvp, get destroyed, and be put off by it. But there are plenty of newer that play more casually because theyre new, but want to pvp one day,.

I enjoy playing things competitively. anything else just gets boring

averyfarmanb14_ESO · May 22

Fandom's 2024 Inside Gaming study is a reminder that most gamers (54%) play to relax and de-stress, and relatively few (18%) play for competition.

Sepultura_13 · May 22

I've had a love / hate relationship with AvA from the beginning, and still do. I'm glad that I was able to get Empress title during the first MYM, on two characters (before account-wide achievements), in the same week. Didn't need to be carried. Just went in, did the grind, put in the time, got the title. Now I just go in to capture a keep here or there to put my guild name on the board, and honor the memory and legacy of my GM / RL husband. I think that he liked AvA a lot more than I do...

Durham · May 22

I wish they would have leaderboards for Guilds in PVP like they did in DAOC.