Why does PvP only appeal to a niche group of players?

The_Boggart

In IC it's usually not PvP but a single against many
Also a bad lag means I get deaded before I see anything

BlueRaven

Because getting one/two shot by someone who seems impervious to counter attacks gets old fast.

FelisCatus

jaekobcaed wrote: »

I don't ever remember ESO being marketed as a PVP MMO. On the contrary, it was marketed as simply being "Elder Scrolls, but online". PVP played a part, sure, but it wasn't like they were making that the focal point in any early game marketing.

As for its appeal, I think the reason it tends to fall into a niche is because it's a bit complicated to learn in comparison to other online games' PVP systems. This is particularly true in Cyrodiil. Not only is it an entirely different map accessed in a completely different way than other fast travel, but you have to either spam LFG in zone chat and hope someone's running an independent group or you can join a PVP guild and be expected to essentially spend all your time playing PVP (which isn't good unless you're within said niche).

The system itself is great, it's just that the community has fallen into clique behavior with the guild thing and it's absolutely not fun to try to solo. And in terms of battlegrounds, that system is solid as well, but with how long the matches run, it's not easy to jump into those either, unless you have a lot of time to spend on ESO.

The alliance war in the trailer is all about PVP in cyrodiil the 3 different avatars for each alliance are supposed to embody different player characters fighting against each other to get to mannimarco it's only after they changed the direction of the game into a more PVE game did they make these 3 characters work as allies.

Photosniper89

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

The player count for cyro has dropped with each passing year. There is an extreme amount of performance issues that have hardly been addressed in the last 7 years or so - with the exception of removing content in hopes it would "fix" the problem.

Which leads me to my second point - there hasn't been any substantial content added to cyro in over 7 years.

People are getting annoyed, disappointed, feeling unheard, and are giving up on ZOS. I know numerous high player count pvp guilds that have disbanded each year because of this.

If they would improve their coms when it comes to pvp they would give people hope and something to look forward to but unfortunately unless it's something like a nuke going off on PvE land nothing really gets communicated.

furiouslog

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

This is a game and therefore there is no reason for a person to self-reflect and analyze why they don't like PvP. How they handled a real life situation, how they can the leave world a better place than they found it and so on, yes a little self-reflection can be good but a game? Sorry I play computer games for relaxation not personal growth.

Self reflection is entirely applicable to a question raised in a forum, whether the forum is about a game or not. We don't play for self reflection, but using self reflection in answering questions about personal preferences is almost necessary if one wants to convey understanding. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Photosniper89

Not to mention an hour long queue to load in and only see like 50 people AFK and no fighting is a big turn off. The best thing they did to PvP was that no cap test. The lag was damn near the same - bring it back.

Those were some of the best fights we have had in PvP in easily 5 years.

FelisCatus

furiouslog wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

This is a game and therefore there is no reason for a person to self-reflect and analyze why they don't like PvP. How they handled a real life situation, how they can the leave world a better place than they found it and so on, yes a little self-reflection can be good but a game? Sorry I play computer games for relaxation not personal growth.

Self reflection is entirely applicable to a question raised in a forum, whether the forum is about a game or not. We don't play for self reflection, but using self reflection in answering questions about personal preferences is almost necessary if one wants to convey understanding. [snip]

I agree! How do you add someone to ignore?

[edited to remove quote]

Thalmor-Nordmaster

PVP needed to expand past Cyrodiil many years ago. And not to just the sewers and battle grounds. I got tired of the same keeps, and bridges possibly others are like me ; burned out by the same repetition .The idea was and is solid yet the execution was to limited in scope to be long term. "The Three banners war" is or at least it was central to the story that is ESO.
In terms of pvp eso has a low skill barrier to entry with the no CP campaign , versus sniper elite 3 or 4 where you will wait hours before, or if you ever see your opponent. Deities help you if they see you first. In terms of gear and financial cost it is controlled fairly well considering the cost in real money to Black Desert where it is all about the money unabashedly so.

I can only speak for myself in that I do not like the contained area idea of our current PVP model. I would like to have the ability to Flag up (Alt-C) in the open world but not in the cities or near wayshrines and not one on one duels near wayshrines.I would say that the open world ability to explore like the PVE crowd makes me sad as they get to explore the world with excitement and wonder. Yet here we are as the PVP crowd in a pvp jail known as cyrodiil unless you are imperial sewer scum then you are fighting over the last loo roll known as Charmin in the sewers.

I had an envisionment where if you and your little band of DC raiders were rolling through the Rift and got spotted by a band of drunk stupid nords then a skirmish is coming fast. The purpose well we needed resources to make repairs so let us use the enemy's resources, and if we can't find stone we will use their biscuits as they are just as hard.

I disliked the constant fighting on these forums between the PVE and PVP crowd it was and is distasteful both side like the game yet somehow we resort to infighting over something we truly have no player agency over ( the long term vision of zenimax plans for the game and our respective modes of playstyle).Instead of trying to find unity and common ground we chose disunity and blame.

For all I just want to say keep on being you and find solace in the world you enjoy.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

I've seen several posts where the commenters say PvE players don't like PvP because they don't like dying. I don't think many PvE players care about dying. I know I certainly don't and since I've started playing I've been killed few times running quests during MYM. There are a lot of reasons PvE'ers don't like PvP but dying itself isn't really one of them.

This does bring up a problem with dying. Dying interrupts the task you are performing and the way Cyrodiil is setup it takes a long time to get back to what you were doing when interrupted by death. This isn't just a PvE issue as I see PvP players make a similar complaint that by the time they are able to get back to where they were killed the action has moved on. For PvE players trying to complete Cyrodiil quests the time it takes to get back on quest just becomes another reason not to like PvP.

spartaxoxo

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.

It was not. It was marketed as having both PvE and PvP and that we could play the way we wanted. Playing how you want seemed to me like I could ignore PvP if I wanted to do so, which I was looking for and found in this game. This game has a large portion of players that specifically wanted PvE because they wanted to play Skyrim with Friends, and the developers have marketed it as something that offers them that from the very beginning.

I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

I don't like PvP because it's poorly balanced. Unless you dedicate all your time to PvP to overcome the severe imbalances, any matchup you have is already decided before it's even begun. Yes, skill should matter. But this isn't that. You have people able to make builds that can entirely ignore PvE players damage for several minutes while wiping them out in seconds. Creating a situation where one can play better than their opponent and their opponent still would win because the outcome was predetermined by gear. That's not balanced. When I play PvP, I go for games where there is more balance.

GuuMoonRyoung

For me, it is mainly because PvP is not fair in this game or majority of the mmorpgs. Take a moba for example, they are designed to be fair and competitive, but in the majority of the mmorpgs, PvP is just about someone more powerful beating up someone less powerful, ganking people with number and so on. It is a mess, it is not even enjoyable to watch, if PvP were good, it would be enjoyable for other to watch, like watching people play LoL or DoTA2 or even WC3.

ArchMikem

It's insightful when someone makes the Claim ESO was intended/marketed as a PvP title. The game is an mmoRPG. ZOS even admits their vision was an Elder Scrolls RPG first, MMO second. Cyrodiil PvP was just one of the features, alongside PvE Questing and cooperative Group Dungeons.

The reason why PvP has a niche community? Most Roleplay Gamers aren't competitive. We hate it. We hate getting destroyed by others who spend all their time doing nothing but competitive multiplayer. It's demoralizing, possibly degrading depending on how bad the farm gets. If everyone had an equal ability to defeat other players out the gate, there'd be more people in Cyrodiil. But Tryhards and Ball groups ruin that.

And yes I'm a One Star General on my Main.

Kikazaru

Many things. At least in Cyrodiil....

A new player first day of PvP:

Player gets "one shotted" by a nightblade before they can react.

Player fights someone with 40k health that seem impervious to all attacks while dishing high damage in return.

Player encounters a tank player that is nearly impervious to all attacks while distracting most of their allies from the main objective.

Player tries to stick close to their allies just to get hit by a bombing nightblade resulting in mass casualties.

Player tries to fight a ball group that seem impervious to all attacks while dishing out extremely high AoE damage in return. Their siege barely seems to work on them.

Player encounters server performance issues that result in their death even when doing everything right.

Player leaves Cyrodiil for ever.

The end.

katanagirl1

Snamyap wrote: »

Disclaimer: didn't read all of the above.

I'm not a pvp player, I enjoy pve and I enjoy doing that mostly alone. Some time ago it became clear that for that play style the Caltrops skill is indispensable for the AE major breach.
So of I went. No build, no real idea what I was doing, just zerging along with groups. I did not hate the fighting, I did not mind the dying, I may even have enjoyed myself here and there. But once I had caltrops I quit and never looked back. And the reason for that was performance, in particular the often ridiculous long time it took when using the transitus thingies. Constantly showing up late to fights, twiddling my thumbs, sucked all the enjoyment out of it. I eventually got the skill line to 10 by playing mason.

The lag for unflagging keeps on the map was something I noted years ago. That is perhaps the biggest performance issue I see now. Other than getting two new, but bad modems lately (and having to replace them and go back to the old one) my personal performance in Cyrodiil is good. I am on console too, PS5, which is certainly not a high end PC. I am not in a group, though.

Also my personal opinion is that I don’t need new content, I am happy playing Cyrodiil every day as long as it is busy and stuff is happening. My concern with adding new content is that old content is not able to keep enough population to stay busy. If you add new content to draw in new players but ruin my play then it is not a gain for me. As someone said in another thread about changes, don’t take away my fun.

Aurielle

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...
 

For what it’s worth, I can count on one hand the number of hate tells I’ve received in Cyrodiil in total. And I’ve been playing this game for ten years…

Minnesinger wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...
 

I do not where you find a place like that? In my 10 years of ESO pvp I can narrow my hate tells to some tens. In that time it is not much. Nearly all players I play with/ against are quite ok. I do not know them personally but there all types of players. Sometimes the problem is yours own.

Agreed. This isn’t CoD or CS. Hate tells tend to be the domain of kiddies playing FPS games. Most of the people I group with and play against in Cyrodiil are in their 40s and older. We just… don’t send hate tells to one another.

Tallon_IV

opethmaniac wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...
 

Very biased pve mindset...

Never encountered such whispers.

No it isn't lol. Just because you haven't personally encountered something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's so common that most PvP discords I've been in have a channel dedicated to showcasing hate whispers, and many non-PvP Discords, even.

Finedaible

I mostly enjoy Cyrodiil and Imperial City during Whitestrake's Mayhem but that's about it. I don't pvp much beyond that since it's a bit of a grind otherwise and not as fun without full populations in each faction. I tried to get into Battlegrounds several times but it just was not as enjoyable, especially since the broken metas tend to favor one or two classes and a few select sets for several months at a time and I just don't care to keep up with that. That said, unkillable and crowd-control immune ball groups in Cyrodiil during lower population times are just plain stupid game design and should not be as abuseable as they are right now.

Outside of some leads and time-limited event rewards (that they can buy off traders anyway) though, there's really not much incentive for a PvE player to step into PvP. However there are many, MANY PvE-acquired sets which are undoubtedly designed for PvP, so personally I think there could be more incentive to go the other way around; I'm sure some would disagree with me on that point but I feel it's pretty one-sided on that aspect.

It also does not help that max population of Cyrodiil and group sizes got nerfed since the game's launch, but to discuss that is probably beating a dead horse at this point...

AuroranGoldenEagle

For me, I'm no longer interested in PVP-styled games. That was me 10 years ago when I had a lot more free time to invest in becoming skilled and chasing a meta.

Now, not so much. I've marked off questing, delves and anchors in Cyrodiil, and pick up scouting dalies now and again, but that's the extent, I don't bother, because I can't keep up.

What MIGHT get me interested is if there was a PVP game mode with pre-made builds, skills and gear, a loadout so to speak. That would allow PVE players to dive in and get a taste of mechanics, without having to change up their PVE build and invest time and gold. But that's my opinion, others may disagree.

DreamyLu

I generally dislike PvP, mainly because:
- Too much efforts required to my taste: specific equipment, skill rotation, right timing for casting in combination with skills from others in team, and so on... It's very interesting and challenging, but too much for my laziness.
- Toxicity: why should I be bothered? I'm gaming to have fun.
- Reliability: my real life keeps me busy and has priority over gaming. If I'm suddenly needed in real world, I leave the game in the split second no matter what. It's not compatible with team activities.

LaintalAy

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

As a former TESIII Morrowind player, All I ever wanted was the experience of the whole of Tamriel and being able to travel to other Provinces. The ability to play with other TES players was an attraction.

I'm OK with PvP events that take PvP players out of general overland activities.
I have never played any other PvP game, nor will I.

The nature of ESO PvP has changed over the years as more players come from other PvP games and have no mindset for co-operative and respectful gameplay in PvE areas. This can be seen from selfish behaviour in dungeons, to racing to 'steal' a resource node from another player - just because they can...

Surgically separating these co-joined twins might be one solution.

Soarora

I think it's the hurt of pride by death and that players have more resistances and health than typical overland enemies. I hated PvP, especially imperial city... until I started being able to kill people. Now it's fun even though I run glass cannon (mostly, I can defend myself for a little bit).

LaintalAy wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

As a former TESIII Morrowind player, All I ever wanted was the experience of the whole of Tamriel and being able to travel to other Provinces. The ability to play with other TES players was an attraction.

I'm OK with PvP events that take PvP players out of general overland activities.
I have never played any other PvP game, nor will I.

The nature of ESO PvP has changed over the years as more players come from other PvP games and have no mindset for co-operative and respectful gameplay in PvE areas. This can be seen from selfish behaviour in dungeons, to racing to 'steal' a resource node from another player - just because they can...

Surgically separating these co-joined twins might be one solution.

As for this, I want to note that selfish behavior in dungeons and stealing resource nodes aren't necessarily PvP players. There are PvP players who hate PvE and just want to get their rewards from dungeons and get out, that's for sure. But I've also heard and seen trial endgamers--so people who work with 11 other people often--also speedrun dungeons carelessly. Even people who like dungeons can end up doing it for any number of reasons from the tank is too slow to needing transmute to needing gear...

Stealing resource nodes is more of a personal problem than a PvP player problem, as selfish players can exist in any area of gameplay.

old_scopie1945

I used to hate PVP and guess what, I still do. A lot of us are Elder Scrolls players from way back and so like to play ESO that way, as a solo RPG game. When the game came out I thought "great, I can now explore the whole Elder Scrolls universe". I am probably not the only one there. The thought of there being a PVP element never entered my mind. After all it was an Elder Scrolls game. I didn't know what an MMO was, or what it entailed.

Xandreia_

People hate dying, it doesn't make sense to me since you can just res and go again, but people actually take it to heart! Can't tell you the amount of times I've had people angrily blow up my whispers because they died in pvp 😏

Varana

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

A lot of us are Elder Scrolls players from way back and so like to play ESO that way, as a solo RPG game. When the game came out I thought "great, I can now explore the whole Elder Scrolls universe". I am probably not the only one there.

LaintalAy wrote: »

As a former TESIII Morrowind player, All I ever wanted was the experience of the whole of Tamriel and being able to travel to other Provinces. The ability to play with other TES players was an attraction.

Exactly this.
I started playing ESO in 2014 literally just to see various regions of Tamriel that weren't in the single player games, or see them in modern visuals (specifically, Mournhold upgraded from 2002 to 2014 graphics). Unfortunately, it didn't allow me to do this at the time, but that's another topic (which was finally rectified by One Tamriel). PvP? No way.
Wehn I restarted after One Tamriel, I avoided going to Cyrodiil after I got the level 10 invitation. I eventually did - after googling whether I had to fight anyone when doing the intro quest.
ESO was marketed as PvP-oriented to people who wanted to PvP. Others took completely different messages from the promo material.

Now, I like to PvP now once in a while, but these days only during Mayhem. It's just not fun otherwise.
Having a dedicated group makes the experience better, but solo it's a terrible way to spend my time.

Also, anyone who claims that "PvE players don't PvP because of the dying" has never wiped for five hours in a dungeon or trial prog group.

Danikat

For me it's the fact that I mainly play RPGs, including MMORPGs for the story and PvP has little/no story, which is the same every time.

Sometimes the combat can be fun, or a match/battle can play out in unexpected ways. I've had some very close battlegrounds matches which were briefly exciting. But in general it doesn't take long before I get bored with running around a little pen (battlegrounds) or treking between keeps (Cyrodiil), taking and retaking the same objectives over and over again for no real reason beyond the process of taking them.

It's probably also because I'm not remotely competitive. If someone tells me their build is better than mine and they could wipe the floor with me I'll agree so we can both go on with our day. Even if I suspected they were wrong I'm not interested in trying to prove it, that's a complete waste of my time so beating another player doesn't interest me.

liliub17_ESO

mb10 wrote: »

The harsh truth that big ego PVE players simply cannot accept is fighting another player is a whole different ball game. It's not like learning how to fight a boss with mechanics.
Therefore, they trash it and say its bad, not fun etc but realistically, if you were great at PVP and dominated against other players, you would find it fun.

Ultimately "fun" comes down to how difficult is this for me for many players.

That is certainly an opinion.

I don't like PvP. I have no interest in "dominating" other players - I play an MMO to escape 'real life', not to duplicate it.

Perhaps what is "fun" comes down to how the player views the real world around them vs the game world in which they hope to escape.

Rowjoh

merevie wrote: »

Unless all factions are locked, and players can ride a zerg, the skill ceiling is brutal. Even players out for a few years are going to get cleaned up on return. It's super fast these days with no room for error.

Unless one makes good friends, most of whom are reasonably sober and know how to anticipate what's going to happen in 10 minutes time, you can spend hours on a pony with little action or constantly being killed on arrival.

Then there's the insane hourly costs (immovables) and 0 money benefit, the hour long queues prime times, and the crashes that put people back in the queue. The lag is so bad recently that it's desyncing 'time' and causing issues with codes out to catch players doing nefarious things - who are actually coming out of 10 second long freezes and then their game is rushing to reload everything that happened around them.

However -when it works it is insanely and addictively fun for hours. There are many console players turning up at the moment in PC pvp with 400 cp showing that cp is not an issue. There is rather a lot of jaded pve ex trial hardcore folk coming in and adapting right away -prob because they have gear access, have no issue with training and learning, and know they should pack-up with others to be successful.

Sooo I feel that for the right personality type like top pve trial folk -pvp will be a great fit. Not so the casuals.

I enjoy solo PVP, but after reading this I'm really depressed

Amottica

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

THe game was never marketed as a PvP game. Yes, Cyrodiil was noted as part of the game, but there is plenty of developer-created material that was out before the game launched showing the PvE because PvE was and is the main focus of ESO.

I guess people see and recall what they are more focused on.

I enjoy PvP in this game only because of the people I run with. There are games that do a better job of the AvA and BG types of PvP.

ToRelax

Amottica wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

THe game was never marketed as a PvP game. Yes, Cyrodiil was noted as part of the game, but there is plenty of developer-created material that was out before the game launched showing the PvE because PvE was and is the main focus of ESO.

While not designed as solely PvP, it was absolutely more focused on it at launch. There existed essentially no PvE endgame. Meanwhile there were 10 or so campaigns and most skill lines clearly designed around PvP.
This absolutely was reflected in the marketing, with the early trailers all depicting the player avatars fighting one another in the PvP zone.

I don't get how this is in question at all. It's not like the PvE focused players who complained about lack of content at the time would agree with this.

Amottica

ToRelax wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

THe game was never marketed as a PvP game. Yes, Cyrodiil was noted as part of the game, but there is plenty of developer-created material that was out before the game launched showing the PvE because PvE was and is the main focus of ESO.

While not designed as solely PvP, it was absolutely more focused on it at launch. There existed essentially no PvE endgame. Meanwhile there were 10 or so campaigns and most skill lines clearly designed around PvP.
This absolutely was reflected in the marketing, with the early trailers all depicting the player avatars fighting one another in the PvP zone.

I don't get how this is in question at all. It's not like the PvE focused players who complained about lack of content at the time would agree with this.

More than 90% of the game launched was PVE. The only zone that was PvP required much less work to make happen because it lacked well-developed stories and dungeons. Two PvE updates were getting the finishing touches when the game launched, and those two updates were not really needed on the first day since they contained the content that required being at vet levels. That pretty much paints a clear picture that the game was designed mostly for PvE.

In fact, Zenimax made a "strong-willed decision" extremely early in the development of the game to keep PvE zones strictly and limit PvP to Cyrodiil. That decision alone made the game mostly PvE-focused.