Why does PvP only appeal to a niche group of players?

Jaraal

opalcity wrote: »

PVE makes you feel pretty awesome. You can kill everything and rarely die, you can roll up to a world boss, have a bit of a challenge but still come out feeling godlike.

Then you go to PVP, and you die. A lot.

For those players who love the power fantasy, this is a huge bummer so they quit PVP.

Once you get over that hit to the ego, PVP becomes more fun.

This is the definitive answer.

PvPers have less fear of dying, since they had to do a lot of it to become proficient at not doing it.

Northwold

I think unless you really, really want to engage with it the experience for a new PvP player is, er, challenging and the quite insane amount of stats, champion points and gear in the game, coupled with the total lack of ingame guidance on that stuff (and especially how it differs for PvP from PvE), just makes it unpleasant.

Basically, you walk in and about a minute later you die. In a fraction of a second. It never exactly inspired me to come running back.

So I guess if that kind of gameplay already appeals to you you'll do the work. If it doesn't, it's not much fun just to try dipping your toe in the water from time to time. I think it would work a whole lot better if the game were able to group players together based on their (machine calculated) stats, so you're only messing with people within your own skill bracket, but that doesn't really work with the idea of an all player free-for-all.

Tallon_IV

I used to mainly PvP. Eventually got sick of egos, cheese, trash server performance, and the size of the community means everyone makes everything super personal. No real incentive/reward for PvP either.

mb10

The harsh truth that big ego PVE players simply cannot accept is fighting another player is a whole different ball game. It's not like learning how to fight a boss with mechanics.
Therefore, they trash it and say its bad, not fun etc but realistically, if you were great at PVP and dominated against other players, you would find it fun.

Ultimately "fun" comes down to how difficult is this for me for many players.

fizzylu

mb10 wrote: »

Therefore, they trash it and say its bad, not fun etc but realistically, if you were great at PVP and dominated against other players, you would find it fun.

This leaves out the people who do PvP and enjoy it but can also admit that ESO PvP has many flaws thanks to the direction Zenimax continues to take combat, the constant drops in the games overall performance, and that it doesn't do a good job at drawing in players.

TaSheen

fizzylu wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Therefore, they trash it and say its bad, not fun etc but realistically, if you were great at PVP and dominated against other players, you would find it fun.

This leaves out the people who do PvP and enjoy it but can also admit that ESO PvP has many flaws thanks to the direction Zenimax continues to take combat, the constant drops in the games overall performance, and that it doesn't do a good job at drawing in players.

This also denigrates those of us who have pvp'd in the past (and I was good at it in WoW - when I was much younger.... but I still did NOT find it fun, and hated the whole thing, every minute of it), and have not found it fun then or since in any way shape or form.

jaekobcaed

I don't ever remember ESO being marketed as a PVP MMO. On the contrary, it was marketed as simply being "Elder Scrolls, but online". PVP played a part, sure, but it wasn't like they were making that the focal point in any early game marketing.

As for its appeal, I think the reason it tends to fall into a niche is because it's a bit complicated to learn in comparison to other online games' PVP systems. This is particularly true in Cyrodiil. Not only is it an entirely different map accessed in a completely different way than other fast travel, but you have to either spam LFG in zone chat and hope someone's running an independent group or you can join a PVP guild and be expected to essentially spend all your time playing PVP (which isn't good unless you're within said niche).

The system itself is great, it's just that the community has fallen into clique behavior with the guild thing and it's absolutely not fun to try to solo. And in terms of battlegrounds, that system is solid as well, but with how long the matches run, it's not easy to jump into those either, unless you have a lot of time to spend on ESO.

ob1ken0bi

I play both PvE and PvP. My guild does a weekly event In Cyrodiil and we try to introduce PvP as a fun experience.

One common comment I get from those who either don’t want to step into Cyrodiil or have played and don’t like it is that it’s toxic. When Mayhem is approaching the first post about it is some PvPer posting about how they love ganking all the PvEers and just be ready to die and lose your tel var.

Now, we all know some PvEers just have no idea but there are some of us that can hold our own and have killed some of these PvPers waiting for them lol. We have even sent a decoy out and when they attack them, we all attack them back. And that’s when the hate mail/chat comes in. That is the 2nd reason why some PvEers don’t like to play PvP.

I understand PvP is competitive but the toxic hate mail/chat, the posts that start the Mayhem toxicity are the big reasons why people don’t like it. It’s a game. Supposed to be fun.

Rule #1 going into PvP is you have to expect to die……and a lot. Once that is accepted, you actually enjoy it more. You learn how to survive more. You team up and learn more about it. I run with some of the coolest people in our weekly event. Look forward to it every week

silky_soft

PvE might run their choreography 200 times to get a no death run. A PvP player will die 200 times to kill that low ping sweaty player.

fizzylu

@TaSheen
Yeah, I agree. I was simply focusing on the "from a current PvP players" perspective in my reply because I don't agree that everyone who currently plays in PvP content even very well are okay with the current state of PvP in ESO. I PvP 80% of the time I'm on ESO, but I still feel that it's not very good PvP and has gone downhill extremely so in recent years. And like I said in my original reply here, I can completely understand those who have zero interest in it for whatever reasons they may have and my first thought would never be simply that they don't like it because they're bad at it.

Theist_VII

As touched on earlier in the thread, what it really comes down to is the lack of variety.

All of the best PvP games understand that they can’t take themselves too seriously. While there should be something for people who enjoy competitive play, there’s really nothing for people that just want the social aspect.

Not everything PvP needs to be about killing other players, I mean honestly there could be racing, there could be jump puzzles, heist competitions and all kinds of fun activities where you compete with other players using your character.

None of that has been experimented with and it’s such a wasted opportunity.

AnduinTryggva

opalcity wrote: »

PVE makes you feel pretty awesome. You can kill everything and rarely die, you can roll up to a world boss, have a bit of a challenge but still come out feeling godlike.

Then you go to PVP, and you die. A lot.

For those players who love the power fantasy, this is a huge bummer so they quit PVP.

Once you get over that hit to the ego, PVP becomes more fun.

A nice little dose of prejudice to make feel better, hm?

FlopsyPrince

How about the number limits in Cyrodiil limiting the number of players as well? Only 2 zones for "normal" play at max level and those are pop capped easily.

Rowjoh

LunaFlora wrote: »

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

there's nothing more delightful and satisfying than killing other players especially when their alliance has morning capped the map and they're 30% stronger with all the keep and scroll buffs

notyuu

The entire reason why PvP is generally unpopular can be explained by combining the following visual with the fact that not everybody likes brutal challanges




of course the not literal but it based more upon how it feels to partake in those types of content

robpr

There are few factors.

-PvP is much faster, there are little to no telegraphs and there are no clear patterns to learn and avoid
-Builds are very different, you want as much single hit abilities to go off at the same time instead of damage per second
-People (most of the time) are much smarter than mobs and will lure you into narrow corridors or lay traps
-General learning curve is different

AnduinTryggva

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It's got a lot to do with the existing playerbase and how the game has evolved.

ESO started as a basic MMO with a PvP endgame in the spirit of DAOC, so most of the people who were interested were PvPers along those lines. What ESO's devs didn't take into account at the time though was that the TES game series, which skewed older (the series got its first big boost with Morrowind back in 2002 and was one of the stronger franchises), and was completely single-player focused. Don't forget the number of angry "ELDER SCROLLS DOESN'T HAVE OTHER PEOPLE IN IT!" arguments where the longtime fans were convinced that this was non-canon because they don't have room for others in their game.

Skyrim brought loads of new people into the TES fanbase, and again these people were here because of a 1) single-player 2) RPG that was also 3) highly moddable. Yes, there were people who were into the "Skyrim with Friends" angle, but that doesn't necessarily translate to PvP.

As ESO continued, they found that there was more profit in catering to the already-built TES fanbase as opposed to the PvP fans of DAOC who came to something with a new coat of paint. This is of course not to say that there could be some overlap in those fanbases, but ESO's biggest explosions came from offerring more PvE content, particularly that reminiscent of the existing games.

I'll admit, there's hostility on both ends - PvErs should not just sit and complain about every PvP event as if they're actively being blocked by anyone, but it's not like we don't read complaint posts from PvPers either. Even the posts from PvPers above are essentially just complaining about PvErs as "whiny" and "egotistical." It makes sense - the game was originally PvP-focused, but that shift has left PvPers feeling neglected for far too long at this point. As such, they tend to lash out when the people who they see 'getting everything' (despite not all PvErs being into all PvE content, but that's a different issue) complaining about the one thing that they got.

The big issue for most is the mindset of how to play. There are people who prefer to play competitively, where the only true test of skill is that where you're facing down an intelligent opponent on the other side of a screen; and then there are those who prefer to play cooperatively, who inherently do not like to face a person, whether they can see them or not. This dichotomy exists in all games - even board games or card games have versions where you can play against or with others. Trying to force one of these groups to play the other version will naturally lead to tension.

In ESO, it's mostly dying. Both types of player die in combat, and then they pick up and see how to improve. But for PvErs, it's a lot more of "oh, the boss does this, so how can I beat that mechanic" and adding strategy that way, whereas in PvP it's more "this person did this, so how can I trick them next time" as the strategy. While it's easy enough for some people (and this tends to be where the vocal elitist PvP base comes in) to say "yeah, PvP is better since you're dealing with an intelligent being instead of a programmed boss," the PvErs are more focused on being able to make progress and execute a strategy flawlessly with a team over a longer period, while the PvPers are more focused on outsmarting opponents and sweeping through quickly and moving on. It's not that one is inherently 'better' than the other (even though each fanbase will say theirs is superior), it's that they're different.

The other big thing that prevents PvErs from going into PvP though is the anxiety. In PvE, and in the single-player games where many of these players come from, dying in combat is essentially a giant "YOU FAILED" banner on screen. For PvPers, dying is something that happens because it has to happen - for one person to win a PvP duel, the other has to lose. Yeah, you want a nicer K/D ratio, but everyone dies in PvP. But in PvE, you die when you mess up. You failed. You are bad at this game. And for people with that mindset, who are used to training and not dying, who then go in and die on repeat... it's essentially flashing a "YOU SUCK" message on screen over and over, and this is even without anyone whispering that to them. PvPers can't understand the disappointment and anxiety that comes from that since it's inherently not a factor for them.

In terms of the gear, that's also true. But in both ways - both PvP and PvErs go into the other content wearing the gear they have. But for people trying to get into PvE, there are beautiful guides on what to wear and what mechanics will be coming so they can prepare. PvP guides have gear, but the combat can't really say things like "at 50%, the other player will cast siege, so be ready for that." As such, it's a lot harder to get into PvP because you can't just learn that from a guide. Even then, the best PvPers will get surprised by something eventually, which all goes back to the above point. We can also talk about Cyrodiil's horse riding simulator to get to something, or IC's lose-all-your-TV gankfests, or BG's who-cares-about-the-objective,-it's-DM idea. There are a lot fewer people on both sides willing to bring new players into the game at high levels, so it's harder to get started if you haven't already.

Finally, there are a lot of Skyrim/TES converts who are not into doing either of those game modes. They'd rather play ESO as a large single-player game, which this MMO absolutely allows them to do. Many of these people are the ones who are desperately waiting for TES6 to release and are using ESO as a way to keep playing the series considering Skyrim is now 13(!) years old at this point. They like to play solo, and there's not much you can do in PvP alone other then get killed. In PvE, at least you can do the zone quest and even some dungeons depending on your skill level. But once TES6 releases, there's going to be a massive drop in ESO players.

The PvP base in ESO is much smaller than the PvE base. Yes, there are people who do both, but there are also players on both ends who won't touch the other side with a ten-foot pole and will complain to no end if they're 'forced' to for any reason. That's also the needle that ESO needs to carefully thread, as adding new PvP content will 1) leave the much larger ESO base out and 2) will not at all bring them into PvP and 3) spread out the already-small PvP base even further, making it harder to do PvP in all modes. The only thing they could do would be to add PvP content that brings other PvPers (and retired players) to ESO instead of something that tries to convert PvErs - I have a feeling that was one of the goals of ToT's PvP, and it failed miserably at that: PvP players want to fight others with the combat system, not cards; and PvErs don't want to face off against another person in any way. As such, ToT PvP just feels like an insult to PvPers and is something that PvErs would rather not touch if they can do NPC matched instead.

So, to answer your question: "So I wanted to ask why don't [PvErs] enjoy PvP? What would make [them] enjoy it?"
Nothing.
There is nothing that anyone could do to bring a lot of PvErs into playing PvP. The major issue with PvErs in PvP is the fact that other people are behind the screen, and obviously removing other people from the equation is the one thing that makes it PvP in the first place. ESO is essentially being two games at once, and the playerbases of these two do not overlap much because they can't overlap much - one faction doesn't like to fight against the computer and the other doesn't like to fight other people, and that's the basic idea of each of them. PvPers though are used to having to do some PvE in order to get what they need, which is not uncommon in MMOs... but if there was a PvP-specific way to get all of the gear/skills/etc, you know the PvP players would drop PvE and overland like a hot potato. If PvPers want to get more people into PvP, they need to get other players from other PvP games to come to ESO rather than hope that the AP/TV farming fodder the PvE playerbase will move over themselves. And of course, that would require ZOS to put in improvements and new content for the PvP base, for which they need the guarantee that people would play it, for which the PvPers from other games would need to be assured that it was coming, for which...

I am mostly a PvE, but I do have some PvP toons. Of all PvP content I prefer hands down Cyrodiil. I used to and still think that the game mode idea is really nice. What repells me to play it further:
- ball groups
- ball groups, and
- ball groups.

It used to be more fun when random groups formed up more easily. We had zergs but only a few ball groups.

Today you type "lfg" and zero answer. And this for an extented period.

And: Hardly anyone, including me, likes to be group leader, anymore. Understandably. If a group fails on an attempt, some people are starting to leave and in 50% of cases this leads to your group falling apart (a problem also in PvE nowadays in random trial groups). On top of that some players start to say not so nice things about leadership capability (analogous to PvE where some players start to pick on the tank or the heal or other players).

Well, all this provided that actually the group worked as a group and not that everyone just continues with their own activity in the hope that the other group members join him/her as support.

I could join a guild but as I am only an occasional PvPer and most guilds in my time zone play when I have family time it is not a replacement.

So the issue here is for me that to enjoy Cyrodiil as it is now you have to join organized groups. As a solo player there is really little to do, it is boring, and the bar is quite high.

For what concerns IC: I really hate this area. It is too repetitive and boring to fullfil the zone objectives and it is not so clear what the actual purpose is of this game mode anyway. To me it looks rather like a massive arena meant to have huge PvP smash fest and the objective are just a fishing hook for that.

As for battlegrounds: I think it was not a bad addition but as usual a lot of people are just out to kill other players and ignore the objectives as you rightly say. But for me I occasionally do run BG but it is nothing for a sustained occupation during a playing session for me.

merevie

Unless all factions are locked, and players can ride a zerg, the skill ceiling is brutal. Even players out for a few years are going to get cleaned up on return. It's super fast these days with no room for error.

Unless one makes good friends, most of whom are reasonably sober and know how to anticipate what's going to happen in 10 minutes time, you can spend hours on a pony with little action or constantly being killed on arrival.

Then there's the insane hourly costs (immovables) and 0 money benefit, the hour long queues prime times, and the crashes that put people back in the queue. The lag is so bad recently that it's desyncing 'time' and causing issues with codes out to catch players doing nefarious things - who are actually coming out of 10 second long freezes and then their game is rushing to reload everything that happened around them.

However -when it works it is insanely and addictively fun for hours. There are many console players turning up at the moment in PC pvp with 400 cp showing that cp is not an issue. There is rather a lot of jaded pve ex trial hardcore folk coming in and adapting right away -prob because they have gear access, have no issue with training and learning, and know they should pack-up with others to be successful.

Sooo I feel that for the right personality type like top pve trial folk -pvp will be a great fit. Not so the casuals.

Sarannah

As a main PvE'er who played a real PvP MMO for 20+ years I'll answer the three questions in this thread. (Note: That other PvP MMO game has PvP everywhere, and in the earlier days you dropped ALL your equipped items and complete inventory on death. For other players to be able to pick it all up. Including an exp loss on death, and the possibility to de-level because of it.)

Why does PvP only appeal to a niche group of players?

Besides PvP requiring a competitive mindset, there is also something else to consider: Real life. Some players have circumstances in real life which is a reason to not want to PvP. No time to take hours to learn, too old, bad reflexes, play games to relax, handicaps, etc, etc.
You can basically compare this to any top sport, only a very few people/players are at the top. While some don't mind being at a lower rank, and most others do not even care about the sport at all.

wrote:

Q: Why don''t you like this?(PvP)

A: Never was a competitive person, though I did enjoy my time in PvP in ESO and other games. But personally I am over PvP, and just want relaxing gameplay from now on. I have simply gotten too old for PvP. Even though it can still be fun at times, and even though I can mostly hold my own(have PvP characters) as ESO's PvP is much much slower compared to my old PvP MMO game. PvP is too stressful which is no longer my cup of tea, and Cyrodiil is too much of a mount/run simulator for a fight that sometimes only lasts less than one second. Ten minutes of riding for a one second fight... no thanks. In my opinion combat in ESO is WAY too unbalanced to even be called PvP. PvP should be fair and equal, therefor many things need to be changed/balanced/removed for it to be fun.

wrote:

Q: What could change that?

A: Nothing will get me back into PvP, especially not ESO's PvP. As I have simply gotten too old for PvP, ESO's PvP isn't PvP in my opinion, and there is a severe lack of balance in ESO. But I will still give my opinion on what I feel would entice more players to PvP.
What I would change to make PvP more appealing to the entire playerbase: Remove all PvP modes except for one PvP mode, so the entire PvP population goes there. The PvP population is too small to sustain too many PvP modes, especially on some platforms. This can already be seen with just Cyrodiil/IC/BG's, and they are adding a new mode soon. Big mistake. For fairness ZOS should standardize PvP loadouts, remove weaving/animation canceling, PvE gear should be PvP viable, remove potions/foods, lessen the learning curve by a lot and I mean A LOT, separate PvP and PvE balancing, fix stealth counters to completely see invisible players(no more gankfest), etc, etc. Make PvP barebones till it is balanced/fun for everyone and go from there. While at the same time making it easily accessible/to access for everyone.
Even someone new to PvP should have a slight chance to win a PvP duel against a top tier PvPer, not get smashed around with no way to counter/improve. This would allow someone new to have fun in PvP, and has a higher chance to get them to stick around in PvP. Knowing you have much to learn but still being able to hold your own, is much better than only dying over and over and over. In one of those scenario's some players will stick around, the other scenario chases them away from that gamemode(often forever).

PS: In my old PvP MMO game, stealth worked differently. When a player used stealth or hides near an object(both available to everyone), they were completely invisible for both friendlies/hostiles. But everyone/every class in that game had the same spell which allowed them to completely see all invisible players on their screen, but in shadow form. So even though you could see them and their figure/shape, you knew nothing else about them. Neither if they were hostiles or friendly, or what level they were or who they are. Keeping you on your toes, but not making it a gankfest. Basically keeping all the stealth's suspense, while not making players completely unaware. This in my opinion is the best way to handle stealth I have ever seen, as it creates stealthy gameplay but without it becoming a gankfest.

opethmaniac

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...
 

Very biased pve mindset...

Never encountered such whispers.

Anifaas

PvP in MMOs usually have lots of people who don't want to engage. For many good reasons too. Primarily the lack of an even playing field. Nowhere else in most MMOs can you find such disparity as you can in PvP.

The cheese in ESO (ball groups, tank meta, bombers, etc..) combined with performance issues makes for an environment you really, really have to dedicate yourself towards. This doesn't work for most people in MMOs who just want to drop in, do stuff, feel useful and then leave.

You can't just heavy-attack your way through PvP in random gear but you can through most of PvE in this game (excluding hardmodes of course). This disparity alone predisposes most ESO players away from PvP.

In essence, PvP requires a mindset that doesn't really gel with the bulk of the game and the, likely, primary reason why people are drawn to ESO; narrative, questing, "Skyrim with friends", dancing in Rimmen while forcing your RP on everyone trying to use the wayshrine, decorating virtual houses, collecting etc..

opethmaniac

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

I thought ESO was marketed as Skyrim with Friends.

I only go to PvP when there is a specific item I want. Cyrodiil is always a miserable experience that usually consists of boring battles with unkillable players. I'm only going to run back to a battle a couple times before I am completely bored and rather go watch paint dry. The IC is even a more disgusting experience the way guildmates from opposing factions team up to help each other locate and farm hidden players.

That is all just my opinion about ESO PvP. I won't fault anyone else for liking it though. It's just not for me.

ESO was first advertised as PVP game (look for original game package screenshots around the net). That was the reason, we moved with our veteran DAOC PVP guild to ESO.

ESO is the spiritual successor of DAOC, which was the first game with a 3v3 realm vs. realm mode (like CYRO). Darkness Falls was a huge pvp dungeon (like IC). Matt Firor (president of Zenimax Online and lead designer of ESO) was also involved into DAOC design (Mythic Entertainment co founder and game designer). Even our community manager Kai Schober was the game master of the Stonehenge server in DAOC.

Jaraal

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It used to be more fun when random groups formed up more easily. We had zergs but only a few ball groups.

Today you type "lfg" and zero answer. And this for an extented period.

That's because ZOS killed the welcoming aspect when they nerfed group size from 24 to 12.

A 24 person group could absorb some unskilled/unfamiliar with the Cyro concept players and still get things done. Keeps could be lit quickly anywhere on the map by a full group, and flags flipped before the counterzerg had time to mobilize for a defense. But when ZOS cut group size to 12, there became little room for error, and just a few non-sieging or "dead weight" players could make the whole group ineffective. The opportunities for teaching and letting new players watch and learn in the large groups were removed, and now everybody in the small group needs to be pulling their weight from the jump, or the risk of failure is greater.

So folks stopped picking up randoms, ignoring the "LFG" calls, and players started holeing up in home keeps and not pushing the map because it was harder to get a strong and effective strike force mobilized. The ungrouped solos are now hanging around in the safety of keeps, or trying to flip resources by themselves, which alerts the defenders to start trickling in when they see that on the map. So now keeps are well defended, attacking groups are feeble and ineffective, and the map is stagnant for long periods of time.

But.... when ZOS cut the group size in half, they stated that they "liked the behavioral changes," so apparently they like the current slower pace of battle, and that fact is reinforced by the Emperor buff changes that encourage players to hang out at and defend home keeps instead of striking out into enemy territory.

Muizer

PvP was a prominent feature in the beginning. Since then new content has been almost exclusively on PvE. Because this shifts the demographic there's a positive feedback in play: More PvE content -> larger PvE players demographic -> more incentive to create PvE content -> more PvE content ................

LunaFlora

Rowjoh wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

there's nothing more delightful and satisfying than killing other players especially when their alliance has morning capped the map and they're 30% stronger with all the keep and scroll buffs

for you sure.

but to me it is not enjoyable hence my earlier comment.
pretty confused why you quoted my comment for this

moo_2021

LunaFlora wrote: »

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

because they designed pvp activities around senseless killings.


I don't get why they can't make simple CTF objectives like in many FPS. Nobody play CTF to kill each other but you'd always see the heaviest fights there, far more than DMs, because it encourages risky close encounters not sniping.

LunaFlora

moo_2021 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

because they designed pvp activities around senseless killings.


I don't get why they can't make simple CTF objectives like in many FPS. Nobody play CTF to kill each other but you'd always see the heaviest fights there, far more than DMs, because it encourages risky close encounters not sniping.

did you quote the wrong comment?
i didn't ask a question that your reply would make sense for

Varana

moo_2021 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

because they designed pvp activities around senseless killings.


I don't get why they can't make simple CTF objectives like in many FPS. Nobody play CTF to kill each other but you'd always see the heaviest fights there, far more than DMs, because it encourages risky close encounters not sniping.

But they have, and it doesn't work.

In BGs, objectives other than "kill!" get routinely ignored by half the participants.

Arguably, Cyrodiil is one giant CTF game, built around capturing and holding castles and resources. Still you get people turtling in turrets or keeps trying to lure in and kill players, not flip the objective.

And in events, this is most obvious, when PvP players don't use the opportunity of more healthy populations and new players to play the objectives and guide the newcomers into the experience but instead hang around quest areas to farm other players. Also exposing the deep hypocrisy of all that haughty talk about more challenge and seeking more interesting fights when they inevitably choose the path of least resistance, avoiding any challenge by going for the easiest targets.

Snamyap

Disclaimer: didn't read all of the above.

I'm not a pvp player, I enjoy pve and I enjoy doing that mostly alone. Some time ago it became clear that for that play style the Caltrops skill is indispensable for the AE major breach.
So of I went. No build, no real idea what I was doing, just zerging along with groups. I did not hate the fighting, I did not mind the dying, I may even have enjoyed myself here and there. But once I had caltrops I quit and never looked back. And the reason for that was performance, in particular the often ridiculous long time it took when using the transitus thingies. Constantly showing up late to fights, twiddling my thumbs, sucked all the enjoyment out of it. I eventually got the skill line to 10 by playing mason.

Yudo

I agree with difficulty to get into PVP, which is really a totally different way to go about the game norms than PvE.
Maybe joining a guild and being part of casual groups could be an easier entry. Maybe it is easier for a PvE tank/healer to get into PvP than a DD going into it with glass thinking they are going to once shot everyone. Either way it requires time, commitment and practice. Would imagine the process is similar for most:

1. Simply queue to see what it is all about, but get stomped over and over again.
2. Adjust builds based on tips and tricks online, although the struggle continues.
3. Experience and understand state of PvP where resource management and mitigation is king.
4. Discover your own combos. Learn about other class combos.
5. Keep balancing your build, closer and closer to the current meta, trying to survive while min max output.
6. Study what kills you. Start logging like a pro. Study counters for combos.
7. Discover proc set, ball groups and other fun stuff.
8. Discover performance issues here and there.
9. Post something about PvP on the forums.

Jokes aside, I think PvP is fun (not always), and getting better feels great.
However, not many would be willing to climb such a ladder to become somewhat competitive in current state of PvP.