Why does PvP only appeal to a niche group of players?

FelisCatus · May 17

It's strange to ask this when the game was originally marketed as a PvP game on launch.I notice constantly that whenever there is a PvP event, PvE players are up in arms. So I wanted to ask why don't you enjoy PvP? What would make you enjoy it?

LunaFlora · May 17

not really anything would make it more enjoyable as it is simply is not enjoyable to kill other players.

TaSheen · May 17

I pvp'd extensively in WoW (in a friend's guild on a pvp server). I actually hated every minute of it. I have ZERO interest in any sort of competition. In Rift, I pvp'd as little as possible, eventually (after about a year) not bothering with it at all.

I refused to play ESO UNTIL I made sure there was no possible way I would have to mess with pvp in this game.

It's not fun; it's not interesting; I'm still not competitive by nature, and I never will be.

OsUfi · May 17

Either you enjoy competitive gaming or you don't. People who usually hate PvP in all games are not going to like ESO PvP no matter what you do to it.

Unfortunately that also means you end up with a small but vocal angry minority that feel left out of PvP events, like they're missing something, such as style pages or tickets.

That's tough boobies, as you can miss two events and still get everything across a year. You can't miss 10 PvE events and say the same. The same PvErs that squawk about missing out on event stuff aren't squawking during the other ten events during the year campaigning for a PvP alternative for every event.

I'm a casual PvEr who hopped into Whitestrakes 3 or 4 years ago and have spent nearly every Friday there since.

BXR_Lonestar · May 17

Its because PVE players are mostly bad at PVP, and so they die. A LOT. Doing the quests they're trying to do to get the event done. There is nothing appealing about that.

It's not necessarily their fault. PVE builds emphasize sustained damage output, whereas PVP builds emphasize survivability, sustain, and short window burst damage so PVE characters are just not going to be successful in a PVP environment to begin with. So the event is kind of stacked against them if they don't want to be there.

Why they insist on going into PVP to do the event at all when they don't like the gameplay though is beyond me. If they had a Tales of Tribute event, that is one where I'd say "no thank you" to very quickly and wouldn't even bother participating.

Minnesinger · May 17

Being bad is something that most players have experienced but to some extend they have been developing those necessary skills to get better. If I am trying to do trials I am not bringing some obsolent build and die at every occassion. Or at least I know better not do that repeatedly. Some pve players are getting good at pvp very fast. Then there are those who want to demostrate their distaste for pvp by not even trying. Oh lala thus the bad experience and the constant posts about how they hate pvp.

opalcity · May 17

PVE makes you feel pretty awesome. You can kill everything and rarely die, you can roll up to a world boss, have a bit of a challenge but still come out feeling godlike.

Then you go to PVP, and you die. A lot.

For those players who love the power fantasy, this is a huge bummer so they quit PVP.

Once you get over that hit to the ego, PVP becomes more fun.

valenwood_vegan · May 17

It's really pretty simple. Some play games to compete with others. Some play to cooperate with others. Some play to relax and do their own thing. Since ESO offers activities for all of these types of gamers (and others), it's natural that some will like some parts of the game and dislike others. It's important to keep in mind that ESO likely attracts a lot of players from Skyrim / Oblivion / similar games who didn't come here with an interest in pvp.

Now I personally don't complain about the pvp events... I sometimes dabble in them and sometimes skip them and I don't think it's worth getting all riled up about. But some like to complain, especially when they feel "left out". People will complain about anything and everything.

As for me personally, I used to enjoy pvp games when I was younger. As I got older and had less time to devote gaming, and more RL responsibilities and stresses, I began to lose interest in that kind of competitive gaming.

I still enjoy some casual pvp here and there (in other games), but the barrier to entry for eso pvp is rather high, the pvp isn't all that fun imo (as, for example, dying a lot turns cyro into a horse-riding simulator; dying in IC often means respawning in another part of the map and not being able to get back into the battle; outside of events, there are few or no groups willing to take on a part-time casual and inexperienced pvp'er; not to mention lag... bugs... cheese builds and weird set-interactions) and I'm simply not interested enough to put a lot of time and effort into something that's more frustrating than fun for me.

Dragonnord · May 17

Why would I like a toxic environment where you get whispered with hate tells for being bad, for being good, for being new, for being experienced, for using this class, for using that class, for doing low damage, for doing high damage, for using a support build, for playing solo, for playing in ball groups, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.?

Why would I like a place where people call others tanktards, bowtards or anything depending on the build a player uses?

Why would I like a content where tryhards are constantly trying to find glitches or exploits on sets and skills to trigger bugs that give them advantages?

Why would I like an environment where 100% of the players have 10, 20, 50, 100 persons blocked or on ignore?

Nah! I pass...

moderatelyfatman · May 17

I'm going to avoid the usual and say that PvP is hard to get into for newbies. Being inexperienced in PvE really isn't a huge issue since you can just do normal dungeons and get carried by other players if you are mediocre. In contrast, PvP pits you head to head against some serious endgame players who usually have better gear and know how to fight. Dying over and over again when the match is so uneven is a demotivating experience for most. Losing in a BG against a nightblade who has 50 kills is not fun for most people (and yes, I know about detection pots but even this counterplay requires a lot of experience).

I think the problem right now is that the PvP community has gotten so small that it consists mostly of very experienced players and relative newbies dipping their feet into PvP and who generally don't PvP for long. This means that there isn't much out there for midtier PvPers.

One thing I really like about Whitestrakes Mayhem is that the community becomes a much wider range of players. It becomes a case of 'You win some, you lose some' as opposed to 'Lose lose loser' when getting farmed by an optimised group.

furiouslog · May 17

I used to hate PvP in this game, but I loved it elsewhere. That changed over time, and it was mainly because I accidentally met the right kind of people while I was grinding some alliance points in Cyrodil. If I were to summarize the pain points and the major elements that changed my thinking, it'd be like so:

Stuff I Used To Hate:

1. Much of my initial PvP experience was from the early anniversary events, when you had to do PVP in order to farm certain style pages, which only dropped from quests in the alliance towns. I'd go in there, and no one would group with me. Multiple times I got repeatedly ganked by 24 person groups (which was allowed at the time) who had locked the buildings where the quest givers resided and just kept killing everyone over and over by spamming Time Stop and AOEs over and over again. IF you complained about it here or on Reddit, you'd basically get "QQ" as a response. Twitch streamers used to stream that stuff and mock everyone who was dying.
2. The learning curve is huge for PVP coming from PVE. It's a completely different style of combat and build, and the guides available were always pretty bad. Content creators would post builds with zero rationale at all. I'd try them, and I could never get them to work as intended. Later on, after engaging in a lot of theorycrafting, I came to believe that the reason for that was because some of these creators had a certain style of play that didn't necessarily rely on min/maxing for damage and survivability, but rather a thing that they thought was cool or fun or just came naturally to them because of the way that they think and play. They were presented without context - no one ever teaches you how to play a build, really, and so most posted builds were not useful and were basically a formula for frustration.
3. Some PVPers are aggressive in thought and action (which is a part of the culture), and without knowing them, or without understanding the history of personal rivalries in AVAA and BGs, both public and private behavior comes off as toxic. For example, teabagging. To people who have been in PVP for a while, it's a relatively minor taunt, or even sometimes a show of friendship or respect, in the same way that a well intentioned set of locker room pranks can pull a team together. To someone coming in and playing for the first time, they are often horrified at a person on the internet pretending to dip their nethers into the mouth of a dead person that they just killed. I mean, when you think about it like that, it's super not cool at all. It used to bother me when I first started. Now I just laugh at it. But it takes some cultural adjustment to get to that point, and a lot of people who play ESO who enjoy the softer sides of the game are just never going to find that entire concept acceptable. And really, it's not the teabagging that's the issue, it's the general toxicity that comes from some players.
4. There are cheaters in AVA. I know this, and I have had multiple sources of proof over time, all which were sent in as reports. This happens in every game, but if you are hit by a cheater at the wrong time and you know that they cheat, it's just demoralizing and basically makes you not want to play. I imagine that cheaters also exist in BG, but I don't play that enough to have found any documentable examples.
5. I never had people who wanted to teach me PVP, in the same way that guilds recruited people to get them trained up and ready for trials. Most of the PVP guilds I looked at wanted some proof of your PVP prowess before you could join. One guy used to make everyone who wanted to join his guild duel him 2 out of 3, and if you lost, you could not join. Which technically meant that the guild leader was the worst fighter in his own guild, but okay, whatever. At least, I did not have that, until I did.

So what changed after all that? I met some guys playing DC on Ravenwatch, and I was soloing a resource, and they happened upon me. We went around finding some other nodes, and then we took a keep together. They asked me into Discord, I joined, we did some more stuff, and then they invited me to their guild, saying that they needed healers if I could do that. I could, and did. And from there, I organically learned all of the other stuff they don't put in guides about PVP. But it was those people, being cool and making the experience fun, that really converted me to a PVP player.

After that, I tried to be an ambassador to the PVE population to get them more into PVP. The social guild I ran used to do a ball group (not really, but it was more of a dedicated sweaty team, and TBH we were not great, but we got out there are gave it a go), and we hosted a weekly transmute farm run, doing the 9 resources quest ad infinitum on multiple toons, rotating factions every week. This got a lot of PVErs into PVP, because they wanted the transmutes, and once they realized how much a 12-24 player group can get done when appropriately lead by someone who knows enough of the ropes not to get wiped all of the time, they really started to like it. I estimate that I personally converted about 40-50 PVErs into hybrid players, some of whom are still doing both regularly today. And some of these people really hated Cyrodil. I mean, they complained about it a lot.

What does that mean? I think that the most important thing that PVPers can do to recruit more PVPers is to make it fun for all involved, and act as an ambassador for the gametype. I think that most of the people who have large PVP guilds today are trying to recruit with the intent of teaching and providing a "level up" type of approach to PVP gameplay just like most social trial guilds do, and that is a good thing. If they were being effective, there would already be a ton of new players out there getting involved.

I think where this is desperately needed is BGs. BGs are either populated with crazy hardcore people who play the gametype, crazy hardcore people who ignore the gametype and just do DM, or people trying to level Alliance points quickly by doing a random. I rarely have a BG where the teams are equal. If PVP guilds put teams together by matching vets with newbs and created a more balanced playing field, I could see it being more of a thing that people played for enjoyment rather than the incentives provided.

I think it's a matter of providing a platform to allow newer PVPers to experience success. If they try for an hour and just get murked over and over, they will leave and never come back, having felt like they not only wasted that hour but got upset and sad because of it. They will become toxic about the gametype, and share those feelings with others, which then balloons into a widely-held sentiment. They need to be challenged without being dominated, harassed, belittled, and destroyed. Some people will react to that situation by working harder at it. Not everyone has that kind of personality, and not everyone can even apply that sort of thinking to a game, which is essentially time and money invested in personal enjoyment.

TLDR: Make it more fun for PVErs and they will definitely PVP.

Minnesinger · May 17

I do not where you find a place like that? In my 10 years of ESO pvp I can narrow my hate tells to some tens. In that time it is not much. Nearly all players I play with/ against are quite ok. I do not know them personally but there all types of players. Sometimes the problem is yours own.

React · May 17

I think for your average player, the problem is multi fold.

PvP has a high barrier to entry now because of how much gear, CP, and consumables matter, in addition to the normal things like skill/knowledge. This is only getting worse over time with the addition of things like mythics and now spellcrafting, which require lengthy grinds and are basically essential to PVP at a reasonable level.

Secondly, the reward system is awful. They haven't introduced any actual meaningful rewards in a very long time. Even worse, you typically lose money pvping due to the cost of potions/food/poisons/glyphs and gear upgrades, in contrast to the low value of AP and RFTW drops.

Finally, PVP as a whole has been abandoned for a very, very long time. The performance has been atrocious for probably 8 years total out of ESO's 10 year lifespan. New content was entirely abandoned 5 years ago; that's when the last "pvp" content released in the form of a single bg map. There is supposedly something coming in Q4 this year but let's be honest, it's very likely a "too little, too late" situation now.

It's hard for a game mode to be appealing to new players when the developers abandon it. I bet eso PVP would be thriving today if the performance had been managed early and if the developers had focused on meaningful balance and content updates, but that just isn't what occurred.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 17

Generally speaking a number of PVP players have quit or are otherwise unable to post on the forums for other reasons due to the long history of problems with the PVP aspects of the game. So this is why the PVE voice is a lot stronger on the forums.

Additionally a lot of PVP players are used to being forced to do non-pvp content over the years to acquire sets / other items whereas these are generally the only times PVE'rs need to leave the comfort zone of their usual content.

EdjeSwift · May 17

I abhor PvP, but not for the reason that some people would like to think. It's not cause I'm PvE focused and have PvE builds, I've actually got PvP builds and am not a bad hand at doing the content, it's because it's gotten monumentally boring and repetitive.

Yes, I get the irony of saying that in an MMO, but it's the truth; for me at least. I used to thoroughly enjoy Cyrodiil PvP, maybe 8 or 9 years ago when they were bringing something new to the table. The big massive sieges we used to have at keeps where siege engines would be firing off and it would be a back and forth for an extended period of time. After playing other MMOs and engaging in their smaller scale PvP, the big battles of ESO were fresh and fun.

Unfortunately, the Cyrodiil of today is the same landscape as it was years ago, just the gear and mentalities have changed. MYM this year was the first time in a long time where PvP had those big siege battles at keeps and it was a matter of preserving your walls as defenders or battering them down as attackers. Sure big battles at the bridge still happen, but it doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least, of the big sieges.

As for Battlegrounds, the issues there are random game modes and the fact that the queues are either solo or full group make it for a recipe where you can either be dominant or get dominated, and that's not very fun overall.

tomofhyrule · May 17

It's got a lot to do with the existing playerbase and how the game has evolved.

ESO started as a basic MMO with a PvP endgame in the spirit of DAOC, so most of the people who were interested were PvPers along those lines. What ESO's devs didn't take into account at the time though was that the TES game series, which skewed older (the series got its first big boost with Morrowind back in 2002 and was one of the stronger franchises), and was completely single-player focused. Don't forget the number of angry "ELDER SCROLLS DOESN'T HAVE OTHER PEOPLE IN IT!" arguments where the longtime fans were convinced that this was non-canon because they don't have room for others in their game.

Skyrim brought loads of new people into the TES fanbase, and again these people were here because of a 1) single-player 2) RPG that was also 3) highly moddable. Yes, there were people who were into the "Skyrim with Friends" angle, but that doesn't necessarily translate to PvP.

As ESO continued, they found that there was more profit in catering to the already-built TES fanbase as opposed to the PvP fans of DAOC who came to something with a new coat of paint. This is of course not to say that there could be some overlap in those fanbases, but ESO's biggest explosions came from offerring more PvE content, particularly that reminiscent of the existing games.

I'll admit, there's hostility on both ends - PvErs should not just sit and complain about every PvP event as if they're actively being blocked by anyone, but it's not like we don't read complaint posts from PvPers either. Even the posts from PvPers above are essentially just complaining about PvErs as "whiny" and "egotistical." It makes sense - the game was originally PvP-focused, but that shift has left PvPers feeling neglected for far too long at this point. As such, they tend to lash out when the people who they see 'getting everything' (despite not all PvErs being into all PvE content, but that's a different issue) complaining about the one thing that they got.

The big issue for most is the mindset of how to play. There are people who prefer to play competitively, where the only true test of skill is that where you're facing down an intelligent opponent on the other side of a screen; and then there are those who prefer to play cooperatively, who inherently do not like to face a person, whether they can see them or not. This dichotomy exists in all games - even board games or card games have versions where you can play against or with others. Trying to force one of these groups to play the other version will naturally lead to tension.

In ESO, it's mostly dying. Both types of player die in combat, and then they pick up and see how to improve. But for PvErs, it's a lot more of "oh, the boss does this, so how can I beat that mechanic" and adding strategy that way, whereas in PvP it's more "this person did this, so how can I trick them next time" as the strategy. While it's easy enough for some people (and this tends to be where the vocal elitist PvP base comes in) to say "yeah, PvP is better since you're dealing with an intelligent being instead of a programmed boss," the PvErs are more focused on being able to make progress and execute a strategy flawlessly with a team over a longer period, while the PvPers are more focused on outsmarting opponents and sweeping through quickly and moving on. It's not that one is inherently 'better' than the other (even though each fanbase will say theirs is superior), it's that they're different.

The other big thing that prevents PvErs from going into PvP though is the anxiety. In PvE, and in the single-player games where many of these players come from, dying in combat is essentially a giant "YOU FAILED" banner on screen. For PvPers, dying is something that happens because it has to happen - for one person to win a PvP duel, the other has to lose. Yeah, you want a nicer K/D ratio, but everyone dies in PvP. But in PvE, you die when you mess up. You failed. You are bad at this game. And for people with that mindset, who are used to training and not dying, who then go in and die on repeat... it's essentially flashing a "YOU SUCK" message on screen over and over, and this is even without anyone whispering that to them. PvPers can't understand the disappointment and anxiety that comes from that since it's inherently not a factor for them.

In terms of the gear, that's also true. But in both ways - both PvP and PvErs go into the other content wearing the gear they have. But for people trying to get into PvE, there are beautiful guides on what to wear and what mechanics will be coming so they can prepare. PvP guides have gear, but the combat can't really say things like "at 50%, the other player will cast siege, so be ready for that." As such, it's a lot harder to get into PvP because you can't just learn that from a guide. Even then, the best PvPers will get surprised by something eventually, which all goes back to the above point. We can also talk about Cyrodiil's horse riding simulator to get to something, or IC's lose-all-your-TV gankfests, or BG's who-cares-about-the-objective,-it's-DM idea. There are a lot fewer people on both sides willing to bring new players into the game at high levels, so it's harder to get started if you haven't already.

Finally, there are a lot of Skyrim/TES converts who are not into doing either of those game modes. They'd rather play ESO as a large single-player game, which this MMO absolutely allows them to do. Many of these people are the ones who are desperately waiting for TES6 to release and are using ESO as a way to keep playing the series considering Skyrim is now 13(!) years old at this point. They like to play solo, and there's not much you can do in PvP alone other then get killed. In PvE, at least you can do the zone quest and even some dungeons depending on your skill level. But once TES6 releases, there's going to be a massive drop in ESO players.

The PvP base in ESO is much smaller than the PvE base. Yes, there are people who do both, but there are also players on both ends who won't touch the other side with a ten-foot pole and will complain to no end if they're 'forced' to for any reason. That's also the needle that ESO needs to carefully thread, as adding new PvP content will 1) leave the much larger ESO base out and 2) will not at all bring them into PvP and 3) spread out the already-small PvP base even further, making it harder to do PvP in all modes. The only thing they could do would be to add PvP content that brings other PvPers (and retired players) to ESO instead of something that tries to convert PvErs - I have a feeling that was one of the goals of ToT's PvP, and it failed miserably at that: PvP players want to fight others with the combat system, not cards; and PvErs don't want to face off against another person in any way. As such, ToT PvP just feels like an insult to PvPers and is something that PvErs would rather not touch if they can do NPC matched instead.

So, to answer your question: "So I wanted to ask why don't [PvErs] enjoy PvP? What would make [them] enjoy it?"
Nothing.
There is nothing that anyone could do to bring a lot of PvErs into playing PvP. The major issue with PvErs in PvP is the fact that other people are behind the screen, and obviously removing other people from the equation is the one thing that makes it PvP in the first place. ESO is essentially being two games at once, and the playerbases of these two do not overlap much because they can't overlap much - one faction doesn't like to fight against the computer and the other doesn't like to fight other people, and that's the basic idea of each of them. PvPers though are used to having to do some PvE in order to get what they need, which is not uncommon in MMOs... but if there was a PvP-specific way to get all of the gear/skills/etc, you know the PvP players would drop PvE and overland like a hot potato. If PvPers want to get more people into PvP, they need to get other players from other PvP games to come to ESO rather than hope that the AP/TV farming fodder the PvE playerbase will move over themselves. And of course, that would require ZOS to put in improvements and new content for the PvP base, for which they need the guarantee that people would play it, for which the PvPers from other games would need to be assured that it was coming, for which...

VouxeTheMinotaur · May 17

personally, I don't find this type of competitive PvP to be enjoyable. There are other PvP games I enjoy and still play in between playing ESO here and there, but ESO's style of PvP is just not up my alley. I've tried it with friends, guilds, solo. Gave it a good amount of time in both Cyro and Imp City.

Not to mention as well, there's always some thread popping up complaining about the lag, broken exploits, ball groups, frame drop when AOE's are spammed, disconnections, bugs, ZOS nearly "neglecting" PvP, no updates, toxicity in PvP dragging to PvE towns etc. as well as the (((questionable))) zone chat. sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's just straight up playground insults nonstop. yeah, any PvP can be like that, but ESO's PvP'er's like to hold grudges whereas other PvP's have an 8/10 chance you won't see that person again. It's pretty crazy how quickly you become familiarized with people (their toons and such) in the game, and how often people recognize you, or you recognize others. First impressions and interactions are marked on your toons "permanent record." And if you ask me? I'd rather not get PvP B.S on mine after seeing and reading what's up through the game overall / guilds / zone chats.

It does also suck that there are 100's of PvE events and festivals, and only a handful of PvP events, maybe less. It does suck that PvP'ers have to go into PvE for A LOT of the stuff they want or need, but same can be said for PvE'ers going into PvP for quests or certain gear, achievements, etc. It's clear to most that ZOS has a preferred side to their product though, PvE content gets dumped. PvP gets that "Here's a Chaos Ball weekend" treatment, like RS does with Red Dead Online nowadays with their "25% Bonus rewards for Naturalist"

But as it goes for everyone, to each their own. I may not play PvP in ESO, but I do hope the PvP players get more love (if they ask a bit nicer!)

AzuraFan · May 17

The number of reasons players don't like to PvP are as many as the players themselves. I don't PvP (except the occasional battleground for endeavors) because I enjoy other activities more. Not because I suck, or I'm not competitive, or there are other real people involved, or whatever other reasons some players want to push on to others. We're all different. There is no activity in the world that appeals to everyone. PvP is no different.

The assumption that ZOS can do something that will make PvP appeal to everyone, or to a large majority of the ESO playerbase, isn't realistic. That's not to say PvP can't be improved. It can be. It can be improved for those who like to PvP, but improvements won't result in a ton of new players suddenly engaging in PvP. That's a pipe dream at best, naive at worst.

Tandor · May 17

False premise. It was originally marketed as a game with both PvE and PvP, had it been marketed purely as a PvP game I wouldn't have gone near it. The back of the original box highlights adventuring alone or with friends, massive PvP battles, and questing.

I've done PvP in the past, the only game I actually enjoyed it in was Warhammer Online, and these days in my old age I have zero interest in ganking, tea-bagging, bragging, sending fellow players abusive messages and all the other stuff that can sometimes characterise PvP. Nothing would induce me to take part in it, nor would I have the time to do so given the amount of stuff in this and other games that I do enjoy.

Sakiri · May 17

For me, it's more like, not enjoyable to be killed by other players.

It makes my blood boil, so I just avoid it.

ssewallb14_ESO · May 17

I think there are broadly two reasons:

Larger difference in target audience between PvE and PvP than most games.
Extremely poor new/inexperienced player experience. There are a myriad of reasons for this and many aren't easily fixable.

I think perhaps this game's PvP would do better with a middle ground between between something like Cyrodiil and BGs. Kinda like Wars in New World, with an MMR system.

furiouslog · May 17

This was an excellent post, and I agreed with almost everything except for your conclusion. But that's because I've experienced examples that seem to contradict it, and I don't think you have had the same set of experiences as myself. I think there is more overlap than you're acknowledging.

I also think that there are opportunities for new gametypes that rely on different skill sets that would hybridize PVE and PVP. An example (not a suggestion): another MMO I played has an instanced PVP event that requires crafters to be on the team, gathering mats and building items that can then be used to upgrade assets or produce weapons. That sort of thing I thought worked well, but my experience has been one of embracing all content, and I know from reading many of the posts here that people who love crafting will mostly never, ever do any kind of PVP, since they don't even want to group with other people to do overland much less fight a person. Meanwhile, I've seen PVPers who have done zero crafting, and pretty much buy all of their pots and gear from vendors or guild crafters, and they just plain refuse to do the homework because they vocally and passionately hate it. On paper, it seems like that sort of thing would be great and it would open up new experiences to people willing to stretch a bit, but I could also see it totally backfiring in this particular community. So you have a point about bringing in new people, but I also sincerely think that the existing community has not been adequately primed to enjoy PVP, and that is the greatest opportunity for improved participation.

ProudMary · May 17

I think it's because so many PvE players like ESO for the super easy, casual questing experience. Whereas PvP is highly competitive. You don't have to try hard or make a build to be decent at PvE. You can just mindlessly hack through everything except vet trials and vet dlc dungeons in PvE. In PvP you have to have everything set up perfectly or you just get rolled over and over again. PvP is competitive. PvE is casual and effortless.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · May 17

Three are 2 aspects to this puzzle, the first is that ESO is primarily a PVE game, and high fantasy mmorpgs are traditionally PVE heavy. This is what it is, and wont change although if you offer large scale pvp that is not affected with balance and performance issues then that would give a space where PVE players can enjoy both.

The main issues however are to do with the ESO design, this is why I personally left years ago and would only return if resolved. This is a what i see:

In ESO
(also consider this as a new player joining the game which is truly awful)

- A player can have an advantage over another simply by having the latest/best gear set. In the game I play there is a fixed set uf developer curated builds (not gear) that almost never changes year on year.
-
- A player can have an advantage over another simply by having more resource and willing to spam potions etc. In the game I play potions and food is disabled.
-
- A Player who can spam spells faster and animation cancel has an advantage over a player who does not. In the game I play I have 25 spells that I activate and 18 that are class related and are passive or require timing. HOWEVER there is almost no animation cancelling, and spamming skills means death because effective PVP is almost entirely reaction and knowledge based where you select and stack spells based on the fight in flight and reacting or pressurising your opponent. To put it another way spamming my mouse and keyboard buttons is a dreary side effect, the last thing I want to do is click another 40-60 times a minute (really?!) just to compete with an awful status quo and broken gameplay mechanic.

- In ESO the performance is spotty in Battlegrounds and an absolute disaster zone in Cyrodill. In other games including my main game i play currently it just works and is smooth and consistent. When i click my spells I want them to be fast and responsive always.

Ive been player pve for 20 years alongside pve, im a modestly skilled player that hovers consistently around top 25% of player in PVP and love to play both PVP and PVE. I would also love to return to ESO, but i want good PVP, (and bigger housing item limit) and the points above are why I wait in the wings and watch just in case something happens, although after 10 years I hold out little hope.

Nestor · May 17

It was marketed as TES game you could play with your friends and engage in PVP. It was never only PVP focused and that is evidenced by the amount of Launch content for PVE vs content for PVP.

That being said, PVP is a pain in the butt. It is not the deaths, it is how long it takes to get to a campaign, campaign management (although that makes sense as to why) and once past all that, how long it takes to get anywhere in that zone. The equipment, skills and rotations are so dissimilar or different than PVE. It is also hard to follow the action around the map unless you are grouped up and in coms. I have tried PVP and it is not getting killed that stops me, it is everything about the mechanics of the zone that keep me out. Note, have been playing since launch and am still at L9 in PVP rank. I am not higher because the zone is so discouraging.

Also, PVP is really a niche category in RPGs. Most players don't want to fight other players, they want to explore and see the world. Fallout76 is an example of this. They went all in on PVP at launch to the point of making the PVE aspect boring. Even then, players ignored PVP and instead, cooperated with each other. Once they fleshed out the PVE, and removed a significant amount of PVP elements the game became well received.

Scaletho · May 17

Because, due to the completely lack of balance between players and the advantages that only committed players with lots of free hours a week to build, obsessively train, grind (and contract a Math professor) and calculate all pros/cons of the hundreds sets you have a very toxic environment where only end-game players rules.

And the fact that ZOS still don't understand that sets present in both ESO's PvE and PvP regions should have different approach regarding buffs/nerfs hence different potential whether your are in PVE ground or PvP ground. Not to mention better balance for players with different PvP capacity/CP levels.

And the utter mess of lags and crash on Cyrodiil (I don't care about battleground -- ultimate toxic PvP feature) that makes the place often unplayable.

Oh and the damn Ball Groups destroying all fun.

FelisCatus · May 17

One thing I really like about PvP is that you can really come up with all manner of wacky builds but with PvE it always feels to me that you have the same build every other dps has because meta builds are way more important. I found PvP allowed me to be more creative with my build and yeah it sucks dying in PvP but it's also fun learning how to get better and then wiping out other players as you improve.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · May 17

Thats the thing though, in ESO the build craftmanship is awful because the game is so poorly balanced. In a good game you can have hundreds of reasonably competitive builds, none of which are brokenly supertanky or superdpsy or heavy with procs that have no agency or especially vulnerable to lag because its spammy etc. I don't think people who play ESO PVP really appreciate who bad it truly is compared to well running games (sunken cost fallacy) It really is absolutely dire.

xylena_lazarow · May 17

high barrier of entry, high skill ceiling, uneven pace of gameplay, chaotic, unfair, unbalanced...

still fun for me but it's good to take breaks from the nonsense sometimes

SilverBride · May 17

PvP is no more of a niche than housing, or end game, or roleplaying, or Tales of Tribute, or questing, or crafting. We like what we like and that is what we participate in.

We don't need to get people to enjoy PvP, or anything for that matter. We are free to enjoy what we want.

tincanman · May 17

Battlegrounds are accessible and done quickly enough so that even newer players can attempt but under-50 lvl tends to be either super-twinked with some players living/farming there or more experienced players levelling alliance skills to 6 minimum(I am occassionally guilty of latter) for pve use. There's a world of difference between even someone passingly familiar with pvp and someone new.

Cyrodiil is useless for newer players due to mount speed time/cost - without a max speed mount, overland pvp is hopeless. Add the player caps and performance issues and it's a massive deterrent - nothing goes on other than pvdoor much of the time. I still enjoy cyro but spend a lot less time there - a lot of that is on performance and neglect for years from zos. I have no objection to getting slaughtered by better players which can often be hilariously good fun but I find it infuriating to be desynched or lagged to death - this, personally, is where my dislike for pvp comes from (ditto in end-game pve).

Imperial city is a playground for gankers and territorial tv-farmers; the only reason for most players to set foot in there is to complete the quests, get some skyshards, maybe fish, and get out asap. I'd have to say this is the worst pvp experience of all, given that many players wrongly assume their pve questing should render them immune to the attention of the resident gankers.

I known the card game is labelled as pvp but, sorry, that's a sad joke for me - but what do I know since I never played it?

In any case, the learning curve for pvp is STEEP - you can start the game and quest, do overland pve with practically zero armour, no food buffs or other consumables and complete a LOT of content, including normal dungeons but if you go into any pvp scenario, your time alive is mercilessly short. I think this is the biggest deterrent to any player coming in - being destroyed so quickly you have zero clue how, when, where, what or who did so. I suspect that zos are keeping the current high survival tank/heal builds to help reduce the time-to-kill, so newer or less experienced players are not instantly obliterated, thereby giving them the chance to learn to play. But given the choice of predictable, simpler gaming in an often limited time-frame, many players, I expect, are happier with pve activities rather than the faster-pacing of super-dynamic pvp.

The huge irony of all of this is that the monster dd/dps hitters of pve yesteryear actually learned their core survival and damage skills in and from pvp, when standing in red(pve) for more than a fraction of second meant death, use of buffs (and debuffs), consumables etc were mandatory. When you ran 'random' dungeons then (by queueing outside the door) you could tell the players who had pvp'd simply by their electric movement and consistently high dps output.