ZOS, Please Respond to the very low Style Page Drop Rates

JoeCapricorn

I'm with you, the style pages should be dropping a bit more often - especially as we get to the last days of the event.

I don't mind grinding for an hour for one.

But I've done 100 dolmens, 100 geysers, 25 Vvardenfell bosses... and the only style page I got is Trueflame from fishing!

NeoniKa

Are there players still trying to get those impossible style pages? I ended up quitting a few days ago after thousands of attempts. I managed to get one from fishing, which was easy, but I find hard to believe that the others really exist. Jubillee Boxes are way more enjoyable to collect.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

What gets me is that those who were locked out are getting the style pages for free. But what about us that weren't able to play because our server was down for a large part of the day? Why don't we get style pages?

They gave you extra days of the event so you can grind even more. I'm sure you're glad. /S

HatchetHaro

irswat wrote: »

I actually enjoy the grind. It makes getting the item feel valuable like you earned it.

I've done grinds in many games for many different rewards.

The grind for these style pages do not make the style pages feel valuable or rewarding to me in any way, a sentiment echoed by the majority of the playerbase.



The whole point of a grind is to give players a progression towards a goal; that's what makes it rewarding. However, when it comes to these style pages, there is no progression; it is entirely random whether players get the drop or not. Some players get those pages on the first try, some players spend hours, days, weeks, trying to farm it with no style page in sight. I've personally spent 22 hours total doing Geysers for the Ul'vor Staff page, and 35 minutes doing Dolmens for the Staff of Worms page. At the end of it all? I didn't feel rewarded at all; I felt drained.

So, what is "progression towards a goal"? It is guaranteeing the reward after enough time or enough completions of the specific content. If players are guaranteed the Ul'vor Staff page after, say, 300 Geysers completed (that's 20 hours of grinding), then each Geyser cleared would then be visible progression, a +1 to their Geyser clear count, inching them ever closer to their well-earned reward. If players spend those 20 hours not knowing whether their next clear would drop the style page or not, then instead of feeling rewarded, they'd feel drained during and after the grind, getting more and more desperate as the ending of the event and therefore drop window looms over them.

There are already examples of these systems that exist in-game already. Say you want a specific weapon from a dungeon: you are guaranteed that weapon after 45 clears of that dungeon. I spent many, many hours doing Lair of Maarselok looking for that Z'en's Dagger drop, and I didn't get it until it was the last piece I needed to complete the sticker book; that final run of the exact same content that I've done so many times at that point was done in delight, not dread, and the feeling of looting that Z'en's Dagger so I can officially be in ZenKosh jail was most certainly rewarding. It felt earned. That's what a grind should be.

SilverBride

So much feedback from so many about how bad this has been and how it really takes away from what should be a momentous celebration. Wanting an explanation about the descriptions changing halfway through the event, and whether the drop rates were changed when that happened to be even less frequent, is not unreasonable.

tom6143346

Maybe bc you just missed out a little part of only one day, That’s not even close to those people, that still can’t log in. I m not one of them, but I think they deserve all what they get , after one week without an account. But I agree the droprates for those pages should never ever be that low.

demonology89

I don't know what you want the devs to say about the rarity of these pages? It was stated on the PTS by fellow players when testing the event that these pages were going to be a grind. If you didn't know this going in, I'm sorry.

SilverBride

I want to hear from ZOS why they thought grinding for unique limited time style pages that many may never get was a good way to celebrate a momentous anniversary. And why they changed the description of the drop rates halfway through the event. And if the drop rates were also changed to meet the new lower drop rate descriptions.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have questions about something that has caused a huge amount of stress for so many players and to ask for some communication about it.

spartaxoxo

They changed the description to match what players are experiencing on live and what was already noted as the issue on PTS. Given that players on live are not experiencing anything different to what was complained about on PTS, I don't think there is any evidence that drop rates were lowered.

As for why they thought this was a good idea. I took would love to hear that explanation. I think it's a fair question. But developers seldom justify their design decisions. They usually just change them if they didn't work later. I wouldn't be surprised if next year things are better. Assuming they even bring them back next year. It's a very real possibility these are one and done due to the special nature of it being year 10 for PC.

SilverBride

I still want to hear it from ZOS.

Elvenheart

I personally think at this point that just the style pages part of the compensation should be added to the list of things that will be given to everyone, and ZOS should acknowledge the way it was originally done as a limited time thing was a fail and not do anything like that ever again.

SilverBride

I agree. We should all receive the style pages or at the very least greatly increase the drop rate for the rest of the event. This would go a long way toward fostering good relations with the player base.

spartaxoxo

Elvenheart wrote: »

I personally think at this point that just the style pages part of the compensation should be added to the list of things that will be given to everyone, and ZOS should acknowledge the way it was originally done as a limited time thing was a fail and not do anything like that ever again.

Or at least add it to the vouchers for those who have killed it x number of times

Desiato

I can understand it when players expect a response about something that's broken, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect one about a drop rate.

Of course ZOS made the drop rate low on purpose and they've seen the feedback about it. If they don't intend to make any changes, I don't see why they would have anything to say about it.

I want to say it's shocking that people are expressing sour grapes about the package the locked out players have received, but it was actually predictable.

katanagirl1

I think they should increase the drop rate as the end of the event approaches as a gesture of good will. I doubt they will do that, though.

Most rng stuff in this game seems to drop fairly soon after logging in or it won’t at all, like maybe within 30 minutes. I would advise doing short farming runs of 30 minutes or so, take a break and do something else and come back later or change toons. It worked for me for geysers and WB but not for dolmens.

EDIT: typo

Serpari

Desiato wrote: »

I can understand it when players expect a response about something that's broken, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect one about a drop rate.

Of course ZOS made the drop rate low on purpose and they've seen the feedback about it. If they don't intend to make any changes, I don't see why they would have anything to say about it.

I want to say it's shocking that people are expressing sour grapes about the package the locked out players have received, but it was actually predictable.

How is it shocking? They're giving away for free five highly-sought, limited edition style pages that the rest of players cannot buy with tickets nor find in the jubilee boxes. Should people be attacking the locked out players for that act of good will from ZOS (which is, for the record, a good thing, a precedent I hope gets established)? No, of course not. But the sour grapes, envy, whatever you want to call it...it is perfectly logical. Imagine spending hours grinding hundreds and hundreds of fishing holes, geysers, dolmens and world bosses to get silch, meanwhile other players get those five pages without the grind (due to no fault of their own, of course, but still).

This is why needless RNG grinds are a relic of a bygone era of MMOs. It creates nothing but animosity between players and developers, and between players when situations like these crop up. No one likes feeling like their time isn't respected, like it's been utterly wasted. And that's what's happening here. A RNG grind doesn't feel like a celebration because it isn't.

Elvenheart

I just want to go on record saying that I am not one of the people expressing any sour grapes, I’m very very happy for the people who get the compensation package for being locked out. One of the “agrees” on every post praising the compensation package comes from me! 😊

virtus753

Desiato wrote: »

I can understand it when players expect a response about something that's broken, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect one about a drop rate.

Of course ZOS made the drop rate low on purpose and they've seen the feedback about it. If they don't intend to make any changes, I don't see why they would have anything to say about it.

I want to say it's shocking that people are expressing sour grapes about the package the locked out players have received, but it was actually predictable.

If ZOS had never provided acknowledgment of player feedback for intended things, that would be one thing.

But they have most certainly done so on multiple occasions, and in the cases where it was too long delayed (e.g. the Maelstrom weapon situation), they apologized for not acknowledging it sooner.

They also acknowledged the strong feedback regarding the Murkmire event years ago, even though that was working as intended too. They said our feedback on the poor RNG there would be taken into consideration, but this event seems to have suggested the opposite.

They have also promised to do better on communication in general, and part of that is continuing (and improving) acknowledgment of strong player sentiment.

So they set the expectation here.

Desiato

Serpari wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I can understand it when players expect a response about something that's broken, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect one about a drop rate.

Of course ZOS made the drop rate low on purpose and they've seen the feedback about it. If they don't intend to make any changes, I don't see why they would have anything to say about it.

I want to say it's shocking that people are expressing sour grapes about the package the locked out players have received, but it was actually predictable.

How is it shocking?

I said I want to say it's shocking, but unfortunately it's not. I knew players would be bitter about others getting something they want and I knew they would attempt to conflate the two topics which have nothing to do with each other.

SilverBride

I also never stated that those locked out shouldn't receive the compensation they are being given. But it does make the fact that the rest of us who also experienced server downtime weren't even afforded a much needed drop rate increase stand out.

Knowing others are receiving all the pages while the majority of us that have spent countless hours grinding and still not getting these style pages aren't receiving anything to help with this feels like a complete oversight.

Good customer service is priceless and increasing the drop rates on these pages would go a long way to mend the stress and frustration these have caused.

Skullstachio

Do you really want to know what I think of this whole thing? Because I'll tell ya anyway as I have nothing to lose.)
While this could be a thread of its own, unfortunately, I can smell the skeevers within the chateau of ravenous rodents all the way from here.
👇👇👇

Note: If I hypocritically disappear from the forums, no skin off my back as it will be because I can see through the Sweetroll and Kvatch Arena and truly know how tarnished the bones of nirn and oblivion really are.

I bring this topic up with absolutely No ill intent or disrespect of nearly any kind, but rather, with Accountability because "As a paying customer" I do have the singular soulful right from my existential point and perview, to critique and criticize it regardless of ToS/Policies. Because, if Customers/Consumers aren't allowed to do so or being prohibited from doing so through some breakable human-made code, it proves otherwise just how low AAA games, MMO's and the likes of such games/companies which includes Elder Scrolls Online, have come and gone (and why they cover their own Ship Afts.)

Zenimax Online Studios could be the first company to release drop tables/Rate odds for all items in the elder scrolls online tamriel unlimited at their "own volition"
But most importantly, "ESO would be the first Pay to play game to do so at their own volition." if/when they do this (not like nexon and maple story with the cube debacle as that was at the behest of a FTC explained 3 months agoprior to writing this.)

Things that can be done:

• publish rate odds for all items and some other things, including but not limited to:
  • Outfit/Style pages.
  • weapon/armor Quality refinement (this has already been done.)
  • Armor set pieces post-item curation completion. (item curation is a pity system/safety net.)
  • Furnishing plans.
  • Antiquity Leads.
  • Trophy items. (I.e. Items dropped by monsters for a specific achievement that can be sold for gold like ectoplasm from specter enemies or even trophy fish from fishing, etc.)
  • Materials. (such as style materials for crafting armor in, like oxblood fungus for crafting minotaur style armor, chalk for thieves guild style armor, etc.)
  • Specific rare resources. (I.e. potent/fortified nirncrux in craglorn, psijic portals in place of enchantment nodes after acquiring the psijic skill line, alchemical ingredient drops from torchbugs & the like, etc Or even for the Aetheric Cipher, wink wink.)
• Communicate If/Can the rate odds of said items be manipulated server side in addition to those rate odds being manipulated through a variety of factors such as locations (both in-game but also IRL in the case of the nexon fiasco.), user activity, certain items exceed a certain amount, current items in inventory and items above certain qualities, etc.
  (for some context: this already got partly answered after the whole PTS live leak into PC NA and possibly PC EU of update 42, of which players locked out of their accounts specifically to be rolled back to a more sound version, ended up being compensated for time lost which implies through in-game mail in services that they can be.)

This sort of transparency has already been done in a free-to-play game and exists in a proof of concept here in this link to the warframe forums of Which DE's Rebecca has explained it thoroughly well enough within: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/809777-warframe-drop-rates-data/

The Case and Point here: ZoS can do the same thing for a "Pay to Play" title that is elder scrolls online, and sure, players will undoubtedly not like it or even despise it. In the end, people will be able to make their own informed decisions based on ZoS's own not-so-vague proof of concept and will help with player retention.

Because ignoring these issues will, much like the sacred jesters festival, provoke people into asking these questions themselves as they show their displeasure towards such jests and inevitably make it into a mainstream issue as a result of their own in ermost reflections from vaermina's quagmire (giggity)that will not go away.

Ingel_Riday

irswat wrote: »

I actually enjoy the grind. It makes getting the item feel valuable like you earned it.

If I was working towards it in a meaningful way, sure... but I'm not. It's just pure RNG.

I've seen people get the Staff of Worms after three dolmens. I've seen people get the Ul'vor Staff after 10 geysers.

The former took me 400+ to get. I'm at 140 geysers and have nothing. Just pure chance.

I don't feel like I've EARNED anything. I feel like I've been bashing my head against a RNG. When people get pages, I don't feel happy for them anymore. I feel angry. Seeing "70 geysers. Free at last. Good luck all!" makes me want to snarl. This event is a toxic nightmare, and I've had to log off a few times when I felt my usual friendliness veer into unmitigated disdain.

Though I guess I would concede that I EARNED said disdain, the good ol' fashioned way. Through lots of hard work and disappointment over an extended period of time. Guffaw.

Desiato

virtus753 wrote: »

If ZOS had never provided acknowledgment of player feedback for intended things, that would be one thing.

But they have most certainly done so on multiple occasions, and in the cases where it was too long delayed (e.g. the Maelstrom weapon situation), they apologized for not acknowledging it sooner.

They also acknowledged the strong feedback regarding the Murkmire event years ago, even though that was working as intended too. They said our feedback on the poor RNG there would be taken into consideration, but this event seems to have suggested the opposite.

They have also promised to do better on communication in general, and part of that is continuing (and improving) acknowledgment of strong player sentiment.

So they set the expectation here.

I didn't take what ZOS has said about other topics to mean that they're necessarily going to provide a response to every single topic that gains traction in the forums. A casual glance at the topics in General Discussion show that that's simply not realistic. There's complaints about everything! The endeavours post has 3 pages. Do you expect an official response for that too?

This is really a basic topic and all they could really do is state the obvious.

I actually look at it the other way. I think it's melodramatic topics like this that make them resistant to engage with the community because we come across as spoiled, entitled and unreasonable.

Ingel_Riday

Desiato wrote: »

I didn't take what ZOS has said about other topics to mean that they're necessarily going to provide a response to every single topic that gains traction in the forums. A casual glance at the topics in General Discussion show that that's simply not realistic. There's complaints about everything! The endeavours post has 3 pages. Do you expect an official response for that too?

This is really a basic topic and all they could really do is state the obvious.

I actually look at it the other way. I think it's melodramatic topics like this that make them resistant to engage with the community because we come across as spoiled, entitled and unreasonable.

I mean, yeah... I wouldn't want to respond to so many complaint threads either.

But coming across as spoiled, entitled, and unreasonable? Expecting to not have to sink 33.33 hours (400 dolmens x 5 minutes on average between each one = 2,000 minutes / 60 = 33.33 hours) for a single style page of 5 doesn't sound spoiled and entitled to me. It sounds like being legitimately peeved, with cause.

It takes me 15 hours to beat Arkham Asylum, a game I consider a masterpice. I could have beaten Arkham Asylum TWICE over with time to spare in the time I squandered on the worm staff replica. It took me 29 hours to platinum Marvel's Spider-Man 2. Etc. So on. This is a miserable, joyless waste of time fueled by my lamentable OCD and the event's FOMO.

The above 33.33 hours is not even counting the 3 pages I haven't plucked from the RNG hat. 140 geysers and 20 Vvardenfell WB down as of now. How many more hours upon hours to go? Who knows?

Now if I was grumbling about having to spend two hours to earn enough fragments from dolmens to create the style page... then feel free to call me entitled and spoiled. Fair enough, then. But with things as they stand, no... I don't think those adjectives fit.

Skullstachio

Desiato wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

If ZOS had never provided acknowledgment of player feedback for intended things, that would be one thing.

But they have most certainly done so on multiple occasions, and in the cases where it was too long delayed (e.g. the Maelstrom weapon situation), they apologized for not acknowledging it sooner.

They also acknowledged the strong feedback regarding the Murkmire event years ago, even though that was working as intended too. They said our feedback on the poor RNG there would be taken into consideration, but this event seems to have suggested the opposite.

They have also promised to do better on communication in general, and part of that is continuing (and improving) acknowledgment of strong player sentiment.

So they set the expectation here.

I didn't take what ZOS has said about other topics to mean that they're necessarily going to provide a response to every single topic that gains traction in the forums. A casual glance at the topics in General Discussion show that that's simply not realistic. There's complaints about everything! The endeavours post has 3 pages. Do you expect an official response for that too?

This is really a basic topic and all they could really do is state the obvious.

I actually look at it the other way. I think it's melodramatic topics like this that make them resistant to engage with the community because we come across as spoiled, entitled and unreasonable.

Care to explain how? How are players "spoiled, entitled and unreasonable" when they are the ones paying for:

• the base game. (Not counting free-to-play days.)
• Game Chapters on top of the base game.
• DLC Dungeons. (Optional)
• crowns needed for said game chapters when they move to the crown store a year or two later.

Because anyone who pays ZoS for these do have proper constructively written rights as they pay for these with their time and money. I can wait...

Estin

Giving all locked out players all 5 pages is pretty unfair to the players who have been grinding for 50+ hours (like me), tbh. Everybody on PCNA got locked out for 12 hours and all we're going to get is a meager 200 seals. Meanwhile being locked out for 48 hours got you a radiant mount, crates, anniversary mount, and all 5 pages? Absolutely pathetic, ZOS. All players on NA should've gotten style pages too for the same inconvenience.

Desiato

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

I mean, yeah... I wouldn't want to respond to so many complaint threads either.

But coming across as spoiled, entitled, and unreasonable? Expecting to not have to sink 33.33 hours (400 dolmens x 5 minutes on average between each one = 2,000 minutes / 60 = 33.33 hours) for a single style page of 5 doesn't sound spoiled and entitled to me. It sounds like being legitimately peeved, with cause.

[snip]

Players aren't necessarily expected to spend any amount of time obtaining these items. The expectation is that the players who feel it is worth their time to obtain those items will do so. Such was the case for me. Likewise, many have expressed they didn't seek out these items because it wasn't worth their time. That is very reasonable.

This is an incredibly rewarding event with dozens of style pages available to collect, in addition to the ridiculous number of recipes, motifs and mats -- not to mention the items available for gift tickets and the DLC giveaway.

Of the dozens of style pages available, 5 were made rare for those who enjoy hunting rare items like myself. Others have also expressed they enjoy it. The 5 that are rare aren't objectively superior in any way to the others. The only thing that separates them from the others is greater scarcity.

Not once have I ever cared about any style item offered in any holiday event. They typically get added to my collection, never to be observed or thought of again. This is the first time I've felt any level of enthusiasm about obtaining an event item.

Players in the community enjoy different things. Obviously some players like free, zero effort common items, but others like rare items. For items to be rare, they need to be difficult to obtain, one way or another. I'd prefer challenging combat events, but I'll take what we were given.

Skullstachio wrote: »

Care to explain how? How are players "spoiled, entitled and unreasonable" when they are the ones paying for:

• the base game. (Not counting free-to-play days.)
• Game Chapters on top of the base game.
• DLC Dungeons. (Optional)
• crowns needed for said game chapters when they move to the crown store a year or two later.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Araneae6537

I remember seeing posts about RNG being to some degree being set upon a login — I have no idea if this was ever confirmed true or false. Just because my own tolerance for grinding is limited, I would just do a bit at a time, up to about an hour of geysers, but that’s all, then do something else, usually on another character. I got the geyser staff in the fifth round (so I’m estimating under 5 hours) and definitely did not have to do many dolmens. Fishing was even more sporadic so I can’t give any meaningful estimate. I haven’t tried for the other two, the Barbas helmet and Sunna’rah staff.

Also, I got the three style pages on characters under level 50, which is probably because I did the most geysers and dolmens with a level 40-something character for the leveling and Fighter’s Guild — I feel better about grinding if it’s for multiple things at once.

All of this is likely irrelevant and simply when and how I was fortunate, but just in case, I share the info. I wish you all success!

SilverBride

There is nothing wrong with asking for communication and clarification, or giving feedback on something that is having a widespread negative effect for a large amount of the playerbase. And there is nothing wrong with asking for things that would make playing a more enjoyable experience.

spartaxoxo

Elvenheart wrote: »

I just want to go on record saying that I am not one of the people expressing any sour grapes, I’m very very happy for the people who get the compensation package for being locked out. One of the “agrees” on every post praising the compensation package comes from me! 😊

Literally same. I'm glad they did that. Those players can't play right now by no fault of their own, so they get what they're missing out on.