Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513 · May 27

Zabagad wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But this is where I can't follow OPs logic any longer. If you use ward preemptively, by design it will absorb dmg before it touches your health. If my health bar doesn't move, I won't need to get healed by HOTs. So surely it's the one big contributor in CMX. But maybe I just a fault in my way of thinking here.

No, you are absolutely right with that assumption.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You guys gonna keep ignoring that this does 86% for MagSorc?

And you don't stop posting this [snip] exaggerations?
This example was in your special phase where you did so many "buff NB" posts that nobody could take you serious. (at least I didn't)
But if you repost it now - it looks like you really think this 86% example would be a valid argument?

Ok - then I give you some CMX-"data" (I took my usual build and changed 1 or 2 skills for all "data"):

I start with this one:

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Replace Ward with Harness Magicka on your Sorc. Please report on results with CMX. Thank you.

And I give you one for vigor instead of ward too:

Yes - sorry both only 83% and not 86%
(I didn't realized that my vamp 4 status was switching to 3 - so unfortunately I got some base healing - otherwise dampen vigor would be 87% )

And a small compare dampen+vigor vs ward+surge:

Uh - dampen is stronger then ward? (I'm not serious with that!)
You see? I can "proof" everything I want to proof with CMX_healing data.
If you want to see 86% surge or entropy - let me know
If you want to see a fight where ward is doing less then 20% of my healing - I slot vigor+surge+ward and I'm pretty sure I'm able to get this - but I have to change my "style".

Conclusion: If you want to show something is OP (at least regarding healing in percent!) you can do the fight in a style to show excactly what you want.
And disclaimer: I agree ward is to strong (especially in 1:1 - with more opponents the OPness is shrinking)

@Chilly-McFreeze

Thanks so much for posting this as I was just speaking of how you could make the numbers in a cmx whatever you want them to show pretty much.

@xylena_lazarow

This is exactly why I wouldn't have really posted any "data" because I pretty much figured that this would be the outcome. Now of course this data was created to show that the data can be manipulated but my point was that to a less exaggerated point, some might actually be playing the game in a way that makes their data look similar to these cmx results. These are the kinds of things that would need to be accounted for in a larger examination of the effect of ward on pvp as a whole.

Now maybe the full data would show that sorcs are indeed out of control, not dying that much, etc etc but one or several cmx reports just aren't going to really be able to tell us that about the entirety of the game.

Bushido2513 · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

One thing that confuses me, if you agree that Ward is overperforming, why is it you take issue with my CMX data and not the literal thousand "trust me bro I'm a MagSorc" posts ITT that contribute literally nothing? Why are you trying to support the Ward apologists' claim that my CMX data isn't meaningful, instead of trying to help provide better CMX data to support what you say you believe, which is that Ward is overperforming?

Debunking data myths is just what it is. Showing that data that is being used to support an argument can be manipulated is just telling the truth of the situation.

This actually just supports the idea that CMX doesn't really tell us much because it's subjective and can be manipulated. If this thread was just about duels then cmx would have more weight but it isn't, it's about the entirety of pvp which is where the weight of isolated cmx data starts to fall off drastically.

But no, saying cmx data isn't telling us much doesn't support either side. I just shows us that following cmx data isn't all that helpful for the full argument.

StaticWave · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

One thing that confuses me, if you agree that Ward is overperforming, why is it you take issue with my CMX data and not the literal thousand "trust me bro I'm a MagSorc" posts ITT that contribute literally nothing? Why are you trying to support the Ward apologists' claim that my CMX data isn't meaningful, instead of trying to help provide better CMX data to support what you say you believe, which is that Ward is overperforming?

Debunking data myths is just what it is. Showing that data that is being used to support an argument can be manipulated is just telling the truth of the situation.

This actually just supports the idea that CMX doesn't really tell us much because it's subjective and can be manipulated. If this thread was just about duels then cmx would have more weight but it isn't, it's about the entirety of pvp which is where the weight of isolated cmx data starts to fall off drastically.

But no, saying cmx data isn't telling us much doesn't support either side. I just shows us that following cmx data isn't all that helpful for the full argument.

See my comment in page 42

StaticWave · May 27

Honestly, I’m going to stop replying to this thread because it’s obvious people are arguing in bad faith. I’m kinda tired of being the only few ppl actually providing in game evidence.

Good luck @xylena_lazarow. I’ll probably stop asking for NB nerfs too. Seeing players act biased when it comes to Sorc but completely flip the table when it comes to another OP class is so lame lol. I’m gonna side with the NBs next time

StaticWave · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a 1v3 I did in Cyrodiil earlier on my 37k HP hybrid stamsorc:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8

Total DPS I took from 3 players:

My HPS:

My only sources of movement speed was Minor Expedition and 3x medium armor. No Celerity CP. Watch how I could kite those players so easily with Streak and movement speed around corners, and Ward up when I'm at risk of dying. I was also playing with 300 ping, fyi.

HPS breakdown:
Ward (shield portion): 20.6%
Ward (heal portion): 10.4%
Vigor: 24.7%
Surge: 19.2%
Blood Magic: 7.0%

In a 1v1, Blood Magic usually contributes more to my HPS than Ward's burst heal because I'm able to land more light attacks. In Cyrodiil, Ward's burst heal is going to contribute more to my HPS because I have to kite more often.

@Galeriano2 this is why your claim about me losing healing from Blood Magic only applies to a duel. In a BG/Cyrodiil fight, I am going to GAIN healing from Blood Magic because I'm kiting and playing defense more. It's a net buff for Sorc next patch.

Notice how Ward's burst heal accounted for 10.4% of my burst heal, which is comparable to other classes' burst heal. How do you expect to kill a decent sorc main with 3 HoTs, a shield with a burst heal, good movement speed, and Streak without zerging him down?

Here is the comment where I showed CMX data from a Cyrodiil fight. Will be my last piece of data. Cheers

Galeriano2 · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a 1v3 I did in Cyrodiil earlier on my 37k HP hybrid stamsorc:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8

Total DPS I took from 3 players:

My HPS:

My only sources of movement speed was Minor Expedition and 3x medium armor. No Celerity CP. Watch how I could kite those players so easily with Streak and movement speed around corners, and Ward up when I'm at risk of dying. I was also playing with 300 ping, fyi.

HPS breakdown:
Ward (shield portion): 20.6%
Ward (heal portion): 10.4%
Vigor: 24.7%
Surge: 19.2%
Blood Magic: 7.0%

In a 1v1, Blood Magic usually contributes more to my HPS than Ward's burst heal because I'm able to land more light attacks. In Cyrodiil, Ward's burst heal is going to contribute more to my HPS because I have to kite more often.

Galeriano2 this is why your claim about me losing healing from Blood Magic only applies to a duel. In a BG/Cyrodiil fight, I am going to GAIN healing from Blood Magic because I'm kiting and playing defense more. It's a net buff for Sorc next patch.

Notice how Ward's burst heal accounted for 10.4% of my burst heal, which is comparable to other classes' burst heal. How do you expect to kill a decent sorc main with 3 HoTs, a shield with a burst heal, good movement speed, and Streak without zerging him down?

In that particular scenario You would barely get any additional healing. If I counted correctly You casted Your crystal weapons 8 times in that fight and You got 12 procs of blood magic meaning that in the next patch 4 of these procs wouldn't exist because 2nd tick of crystal weapon won't be proccing blood magic. You used dark deal 8 times meaning in next patch that would be additional 8 procs of blood magic so Your total net gain would be additional 4 procs which is around 3% more healing in that particular case.

It's also worth to notice that some of Your crystal weapons casts were used as prebuffs when You were either at or very close to full health so in new patch that healing can be wasted contrary to what was happening in Your video where You got healing when You were actively engaging with enemy and Your health bar wasn't full, meaning that at the end Your total gain can be even lower and sitting even around 0-1%.

Let me remind You that I argued mainly with the fact that You called change to blood magic a massive buff which 3% doesn't seem to be. When I said about You noticing significant nerf to healing from blood magic I was speaking specifically about stats provided by You in a form of a duel video.

0-3% of net gain in healing doesn't seem to be so massive. So at the end of the day Your particular setup and playstyle will going to loose healing in duels and barely get any additional healing in fights like the ones You've linked.

Bushido2513 · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

One thing that confuses me, if you agree that Ward is overperforming, why is it you take issue with my CMX data and not the literal thousand "trust me bro I'm a MagSorc" posts ITT that contribute literally nothing? Why are you trying to support the Ward apologists' claim that my CMX data isn't meaningful, instead of trying to help provide better CMX data to support what you say you believe, which is that Ward is overperforming?

Debunking data myths is just what it is. Showing that data that is being used to support an argument can be manipulated is just telling the truth of the situation.

This actually just supports the idea that CMX doesn't really tell us much because it's subjective and can be manipulated. If this thread was just about duels then cmx would have more weight but it isn't, it's about the entirety of pvp which is where the weight of isolated cmx data starts to fall off drastically.

But no, saying cmx data isn't telling us much doesn't support either side. I just shows us that following cmx data isn't all that helpful for the full argument.

See my comment in page 42

When we get evidence that zos uses player posted cmx data to balance things I will have to somewhat agree with what you're doing. Until then I choose to understand that the only people who can do anything about anything aren't really using individual player feedback and are instead relying on their own internal data. It's not perfect but that doesn't really matter since not being happy about it isn't going to really change anything.

Bushido2513 · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Honestly, I’m going to stop replying to this thread because it’s obvious people are arguing in bad faith. I’m kinda tired of being the only few ppl actually providing in game evidence.

Good luck @xylena_lazarow. I’ll probably stop asking for NB nerfs too. Seeing players act biased when it comes to Sorc but completely flip the table when it comes to another OP class is so lame lol. I’m gonna side with the NBs next time

I think you'll be back. But I certainly understand how you could feel the way you do. ZOS can't please everyone and I think this has just been one of those things that really divides the player base. Maybe they will revert it or turn it into a hot and you'll be vindicated. I'm ok with either option to be honest but again the change wasn't really essential for me though I recognize it might have made a big difference for others.

Caecus0 · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Posters have provided CMX data inferring that Hardened Ward is overperforming. You have repeatedly said the data they have provided is not enough. They clearly think it is enough. That means you think they are wrong. You may not have used the exact word, but it's very clear that is what your stance is.

No I said it wasn't proof of anything in regards to answering the larger question of how the ward change is effecting pvp. Saying that I think something doesn't prove something isn't the same as saying I think that the thing is wrong. I'm simply saying that the point they were trying to prove hasn't been yet proven to me by what has been presented. So I'm more so saying not that the evidence is wrong but that there isn't enough there to convince me. As I've said many times I believe the data that would make a convincing argument is just data that we don't have access to.

Caecus0 wrote: »

You have also directly compared the Sorc to the NB, stating that you could take things away from the NB and they'd function, while taking anything away from the Sorc could easily cripple it. Others have clearly disagreed. That means you think they are wrong.

This was in talking about The toolkit of sorc as compared to nightblade and this was an opinion I stated. Opinions aren't right or wrong because they aren't being stated as facts. I can have that opinion about the toolkit and someone else can have another opinion. Doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong, we just see it differently.

Caecus0 wrote: »

If someone takes a bite of food, winces, then throws the food in the garbage, one can infer that they didn't like the food. You, however, seem to be acting like because they didn't utter the exact words "I didn't like the food" that they can unironically correct someone who thought they didn't like the food by saying "I never said I didn't like the food." It's flat out sophistry.

Well they could have also just hit a nerve ending in their tooth, had a sudden onset of nausea, or had any one of several things happen in their body that caused them to no longer desire the food. I personally would just ask them why they threw the food away if I was that curious rather than trying to assume if I was that curious and wanted to be correct about understanding what happened. And yes if they didn't answer I suppose I would only have my assumptions to go off of but I wouldn't try to pass them off as proof of anything to anyone.

Caecus0 wrote: »

What you seem to be doing is taking the stance that you think Sorcerers seem fine to you, but deliberately not stating it outright so you can dance around the issue and put the onus on others to prove their point by saying "they haven't proven anything" to distract them from the fact you don't seem to have a counterpoint. It comes off as bad faith.

What I'm saying is that while the change to sorcerer isn't really bothering me that I can recognize that others have issues with it. I also want people to share views because that's part of what we're here for. What I don't support is people making it seem like a subjective view such as CMX data tells the reality of the story of this change's effects on pvp as a whole. The data of one or even several players in isolated instances is just not a way to fully test and understand the effects of this change across the randomness of all that is part of the pvp experience. I'm not dismissing the accounts of what players are seeing, just saying it's not the same as the data zos uses to balance the game.

No counterpoint can be made when there's not much of a point in the first place. Why would I counter cmx data from one persons perspective when the proposed issue needs to be looked at from a larger back end data set? All this would really show is ok you ran a build, then I ran a build and here's what we got. What does that tell me about someone else that runs 1 of the other 1000 build combinations out there who maybe has a healer around, or maybe is in a zerg heavy attacking, or maybe doesn't understand shield uptime or how to not get outnumbered by standing in a field trying to face tank 3 people?

I'm not trying to see the game balanced around one or even seven players experiences but rather around data that can be seen on the back end that shows a clearer view of the battle from all player interactions.

Caecus0 wrote: »

If you think that Sorcerers need the current iteration of Ward in order to function, just take that stance and provide data to back it up.

For my build in particular the ward change made some difference obviously but I also found great success for my playstyle before the change. So for me I could go either way on the change. Now that's me and I obviously can't speak for others and how this change may or may not be needed for them to play sorc. I don't mind going up against this version of ward for the record but again I understand others may find it more problematic.

It's not a simple question to just say do I think sorcs need the current iteration of ward because there are multiple smaller questions that I can't really answer.

For instance I am usually solo so for me the ward change helps because when you're outnumbered in this game you almost need every advantage.

But I can't really speak on how this change relates to those that like to join anywhere from a small group to a full blown zerg.

I also don't duel at all anymore because it's basically pretty imbalanced with a high potential for a toxic experience in my experience. So I can't speak for how this affects duels other than to say the cmx data there does seem more relevant. But then you have to ask how large is the dueling community? Maybe big or small, I wouldn't really know.

I primarily spend my time in IC and high MMR BGS but even so I can understand that any data I provided would only be subjective at that point and wouldn't really tell the story of the multiple scenarios that I described that I don't even play in.

Is the ward change bad or good overall for pvp? I don't believe anyone here including myself has all the data needed to give a solid answer to that question.

I am going to write a sentence to make a good faith attempt to figure out what your point is:

"I am not yet convinced that Sorcerer is overpowered. They could be, but I think we need more time to figure it out. I am concerned the data samples presented so far are biased and not painting the whole picture, or painting a false picture. I am concerned if we act too hastily that Sorcerer may get overnerfed."

I made it as simple as possible, not hidden in a wall of text. If this is your stance, then please just say this or something equally simple. I would greatly appreciate it.

xylena_lazarow · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

When we get evidence

Still waiting for yours.

a_u_s_t_y · May 27

This is all interesting, however, if mag sorc is so OP why is everyone playing NB? And why did the people that jumped on the magsorc bandwagon at the beginning of u41 swap to NB towards the end?

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all, people tried it and yes there was a spike in popularity but in the end they all go play nightblade

xylena_lazarow · May 27

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all

Can you provide the data for this? Thanks.

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

Anecdotally, myself and others note that Sorc has become significantly more popular among the competitive crowd, with whole teams of Sorcs in BGs as noted by someone earlier ITT.

TechMaybeHic · May 27

I just started playing sorc and I can't tell you the last time I played my sorc. It would have been stam though as I always hated keeping shield up. Now it's the ultimate recovery tool

a_u_s_t_y · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all

Can you provide the data for this? Thanks.

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

Anecdotally, myself and others note that Sorc has become significantly more popular among the competitive crowd, with whole teams of Sorcs in BGs as noted by someone earlier ITT.

They will try magsorc for a bit then swap to NB, soon Cyro will just be NB only

TechMaybeHic · May 28

lol Tonight is the first night Ive really run sorc for more than to go check it out. "totally not OP. Bout time I can compete." lol

After a first full couple hours, went 115 kills before getting killed, by another sorc. Bow sorc actually. Ran right into his bow ballista. Then right after that I got killed by a faction stack a couple times, while surviving a ton of incoming damage. Had a couple massive rubberbands and could not get away. FWIW; I rarely go that long on my main templar or NB which I have played maybe 2nd most

Zabagad · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Zabagad [1]what were you doing while obtaining those numbers? Are these staged or wild? I was at Aleswell FD zerg surfing for 3-5 minutes for mine. [2]How did it feel without a burst heal attached? Those numbers tell me that if a big shield alone is enough to carry your healing like that, then the burst heal on Ward is indeed overkill.

[3]One thing that confuses me, if you agree that Ward is overperforming, why is it you take issue with my CMX data and not the literal thousand "trust me bro I'm a MagSorc" posts ITT that contribute literally nothing? Why are you trying to support the Ward apologists' claim that my CMX data isn't meaningful, [4]instead of trying to help provide better CMX data to support what you say you believe, which is that Ward is overperforming?

(numbers inserted by me to make it easier to answer)

1) I got these data from fighting dragons in (edit -south) elsweyr.
I never do it in prime time and try to do it solo but most of the time a few more ppl are showing up.
I don't know if this is "staged or wild?" for you.
This is my standard scenario to compare and test skills and sets and I guess I have done (edit made it a bit smaller:) 4000-5000 dragons over the last years to test all my stuff.
Since I don't have a buddy to test PvP things and anything can happen in Cyro, this is the best scenario to get a good fight. Fighting dragons gives me a repeatable and comparable "controlled" situation against an opponent who can fight back.
I'm pretty sure I could do this in cyro as well, but because you never know what situation you will find next - it would be hard to compare and hard to reproduce and that would cost me much more time to get the cmx-data I wanted to get.
My goal was to show you (and me first

) if I can "manipulate" my style towards whatever I want to claim and so I could do these tests in maybe 1 hour to get the cmx-data. In cyro I guess I would need 3 evenings and a lot of luck with the in combat bug

2) My test with vigor felt surprisingly good but the test with dampen felt like pre U41 ward. I had to press dampen to often to stay alive and run out of mag (I didn't change my health or reg for these tests) - so I had to use more DD (which I tried to prevent because I tried to get a high number on dampen

)
So it was hard to survive (without a real heal slottet) and so I did a 2nd test with dampen+vigor which felt good.
Dampen+vigor didn't feel much different to ward+surge on that quick tests.

With one skill only ofc U41 ward feels the best - but that's obvious.
And for sure I have done less damage - but I didn't focus on that because this is not included in "our" cmx-pictures

3) My point was to show that your 86% claim is an exaggeration and that you can get a number like that on your will.
So even if you got it with one example during 3-5min at aleswell, you could get other numbers with other setup/style.
And then you used that for this:

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Can someone please show me any other skill in this entire game doing 86.5% of well... anything?

and I just don't like it when people use a single data snapshot (whether accidentally or intentionally generated) to claim big things. I also don't care if they use it against or in favor of my position.

Imo Statics claim of 20+10% is a much more realistic value.
But it depends totally on your style+skills what you get - my setup+style tends to get 35+10% (I will edit this value later and I try my best to do the dragons in my normal playstyle - *1) but at the same time I'm pretty sure that I could get > 90% if I need a cmx-shot of that.
So I guess Bushidos "debunking" was a good describtion of the "why" - and not at all to defend the U41 ward.

4) I guess we almost all (you, me, Static, Jsmalls, Turtle and more) agree that ward is too strong, but I see no way to prove that with cmx-data. For sure not with "your" healing percent CMX try.

I'm not a big fan of the HPS way from Static either - mainly because he already agreed > 1 mounth ago, that the most frequently mentioned solution (HoT) wouldn't change much on the HPS situation.
But at least it's a good try and I see nothing better myself to illustrate the ward situation...

(I) First of all I trust my own feelings (which in this case I got while fighting dragons on the U41 PTS) - in conjunction with
(II) good arguments from (better) players with a balanced view to come to that conclusion.

I like to mention Turtle and Jsmalls here - they both did multiple times exactly this.
When they say something, it sounds open and honest and not manipulative and exaggerated.
So if they say ward is too strong (or whatever thing they say) I'm very much tend to believe them and for me their opinion counts a lot. If they had a different opinion then me, then I would reconsider my position. (and probably discuss this with them)

On the other hand I have to discount most of the time Statics postings, because he is always a bit stamSorc centric and sometimes a bit onesided

So for me his arguments would be stronger if he wouldn't do this - but at least his opinion counts too.

(III) And third I have my own statistics - which can influence my opinion. (see next post)

So - I was quickly convinced and so for me there was no need for aditional prove and I made a post here in this thread where I said this and wanted to just discuss about the best way to nerf it.

Edit *1):
After fighting 6 more dragons and focussing on the healing percent value, I found out:
- I could get dampen to 93% of the healing
- I wasn't able to get my ward below 50% even if I tried my best with surge+vigor+DD

But this is because of my playstyle and I always very early precast shields.
- I would only get lower values if I'm ready to take more risks to die or play with more health then 25K

So finally - you can trim the healing percent value with any shield with early precasts (should be possible on arc too) to a higher value (>90%) and towards lower value if you are ready to take more risks to lose more (to much) health before you recast it....

Zabagad · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

So the "Another poster here" was me

The claim "trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc" is not my claim.
It looks a bit like this - and pretty sure there are some "DK to Sorc" - but the data can be missleading and I guess this claim is a to simple interpretation. (but that shouldn't be the topic here)

And yes imo it wasn't significant enough for "exact numbers" and I will update the data on 30.05 or 31.05 to get the best and most sig data I can get. Unfortunately I cannot count and use the first campaign, because it was split with U40 during the event. So I only have 2 instead the usual 3 campaigns per Update.
(Sorc population in the splitted campaign was btw higher then U40 - but less then both following pure U41 campaigns)

But it is imo already safe enough to say that this:

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This is all interesting, however, if mag sorc is so OP why is everyone playing NB? And why did the people that jumped on the magsorc bandwagon at the beginning of u41 swap to NB towards the end?

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all, people tried it and yes there was a spike in popularity but in the end they all go play nightblade

is not true.
Sure there were some Sorcs in the first weeks which just tried the new hype and switched back soon, but:
- sorc is significant more popular then pre U41
- except the first week(s) where maybe(!) was a spike there is no spike between the actual and last campaign where in both sorc is at ~22%.

So - austy is wrong with the boldet claims. However the NB>Sorc (at least population wise) claim is still true too.

StaticWave · May 28

@Zabagad I'm not actively participating in the discussion anymore but I just wanted to say while I disagree with you on some parts, I give you props for arguing in good faith. Not many people here can do that haha

Dracane · May 28

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Now maybe the full data would show that sorcs are indeed out of control, not dying that much, etc etc but one or several cmx reports just aren't going to really be able to tell us that about the entirety of the game.

Indeed, it says nothing. My few deaths are exclusively done by Nightblade gankers. Almost no other class causes me deaths, because I run away if I feel overwhelmed.

This doesn't mean other classes aren't strong or dangerous. But everyone except Nightblades builds for too much sustain and defense to really come as a surprise. Because Nightblade is the only class worth building for full fire.

Bushido2513 · May 28

Caecus0 wrote: »

"I am not yet convinced that Sorcerer is overpowered. They could be, but I think we need more time to figure it out. I am concerned the data samples presented so far are biased and not painting the whole picture, or painting a false picture. I am concerned if we act too hastily that Sorcerer may get overnerfed."

I made it as simple as possible, not hidden in a wall of text. If this is your stance, then please just say this or something equally simple. I would greatly appreciate it.

So you did a book to movie conversion and much in the same way you got the general point but lost potentially important content that was put there by the author for a reason.

It's a fairly nuanced topic we're speaking of here but I certainly respect that some here would rather it be something akin to ward bad or ward good. That's just not my approach to discussing more complex topics generally speaking.

Bushido2513 · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

When we get evidence

Still waiting for yours.

Told you, just sub in any data you like and call it mine and it will be just as random as anything I'd give you.

Between Static and Zabagad we pretty much have the cmx spectrum for you to code from

Bushido2513 · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

This buff hasn’t made mag sorc more popular at all

Can you provide the data for this? Thanks.

Another poster here showed there was a trend of players bailing from DK to Sorc, although they said it would not be statistically significant until a full cycle of data had been collected (so next week maybe).

Anecdotally, myself and others note that Sorc has become significantly more popular among the competitive crowd, with whole teams of Sorcs in BGs as noted by someone earlier ITT.

There is no accurate data that can be provided by players on any of these accounts. When are hearing in this thread from like .1 percent of the player base so please keep that in mind when even multiple people say they are seeing it one way and others see different.

xylena_lazarow · May 28

@Zabagad appreciate the explanation and the comparison of Ward+Surge to Dampen+Vigor. This does support that the idea that Ward+passives replaces multiple active skills, though some players think this is fine. I'm not sure how much the lack of Battle Spirit skews things, soloing resources on an empty camp like Blackreach has been my go-to for testing PvP numbers if I don't want to have to deal with other players.

To those who disagree with me, is there any data or test I can provide that will ease your concerns of bias? Don't let the best be the enemy of the better, I'll gladly take more incomplete data or more PvE zone data over another 1200 posts of "trust me bro" or claims that since we can't know literally everything, it's not worth trying.

xylena_lazarow · May 28

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Told you, just sub in any data you like and call it mine and it will be just as random as anything I'd give you.

If all your data is random, that literally means you have no evidence. Your concerns over my bias are noted.

Jsmalls · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You guys gonna keep ignoring that this does 86% for MagSorc?

@xylena_lazarow

But this is once again the issue in only having data after the buff to ward, and not having experience with a CMX from a MagSorc prior to this. Ward was 80%+ of my total healing before this patch. So it's literally no different than it was last patch. And no one is here to argue that Ward was in a good place last update...

If I have time and a buddy of mine is online that I usually duel with i'll swap to Dampen and post the CMX. Not sure if I'll be able to sustain it but we'll see.

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

It's actually not quite clear at all and that's the problem with this thread. People are trying to simplify a complicated thing and that usually leads to flawed evaluations.

I don't doubt that ward can feel like it's over performing but I've also experienced cases where it doesn't feel special at all.

This thread is just a bunch of players giving their individual takes on ward with some passing off their observations as conclusive evidence for one side or the other.

It doesn't feel overperforming. It is overperforming based on CMX data. I can show multiple screenshots of CMX data from Cyrodiil, BG, and dueling and even if the screenshots show Ward + its burst heal doing more than 30-40% of my total healing, you will still not be convinced lol.

But what does this truly even mean though.

Last patch in GvG fights with a healer Ward was still my number one "heal". Think it would regularly provide 80% of my "healing" if I remember correctly (from prolonged fights where I'm zipping around being a mobile nuke). This is just how CMX represents what Ward has absorbed throughout a fight. I used surge, dark conversion, and blood magic to heal under my ward, like a good little Mag Sorc should do.

I get that other classes have like 3 HoTs and a burst heal going, but Mag Sorcs have ALWAYS been defended by Ward as their #1, 90% of damage absorbed healer. Before and after this.

Wish I had screen shots from CMXs before but guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I've looked at CMXs post GvGs (to let the healers know what is and isn't working) I was ALWAYS my own number one healing and they would represent like 10-15% of my healing.

I wanted to point out that even with 3 HoTs rolling on my stamsorc, a 35k HP Ward still does 20% of my HPS. It's pretty decent and on par with magsorc in terms of tankiness. The only downside is less mag sustain and max mag to spam Ward more. In the case that Ward does get adjusted, magsorc can rest assured they will still have the healing to compete.

@StaticWave

In comparison to it's capacities the last patch in a Mag Sorc setup this would mean death. Just don't have the bar space or resource allocation to afford 35k health and vigor and still be a competitive "MagSorc". Sure could swap to a stacked HPS HoT Sorc but don't really care for this build type.

With the size increase and a HoT I think Ward would be in a better place versus last patch, though I would prefer better interaction with the class as a whole without commitment of two additional bar slots. I'm okay with keeping bound aegis slotted, but wish major Prophecy/Savagery was added to the class kit (such a big let down for scribing to have not included this in a better way).

Bushido2513 · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Told you, just sub in any data you like and call it mine and it will be just as random as anything I'd give you.

If all your data is random, that literally means you have no evidence. Your concerns over my bias are noted.

That's been my point the whole time. Nobody other than ZOS has evidence of really anything when it comes to how this change is or isn't effecting PVP as a whole for the positive or negative. Cmx data and player recountings are just anecdotal in this case

Bushido2513 · May 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Zabagad appreciate the explanation and the comparison of Ward+Surge to Dampen+Vigor. This does support that the idea that Ward+passives replaces multiple active skills, though some players think this is fine. I'm not sure how much the lack of Battle Spirit skews things, soloing resources on an empty camp like Blackreach has been my go-to for testing PvP numbers if I don't want to have to deal with other players.

To those who disagree with me, is there any data or test I can provide that will ease your concerns of bias? Don't let the best be the enemy of the better, I'll gladly take more incomplete data or more PvE zone data over another 1200 posts of "trust me bro" or claims that since we can't know literally everything, it's not worth trying.

Thanks for not putting me into the trust me bro group lol. I'm curious, what's your end goal here?

xylena_lazarow · May 28

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That's been my point the whole time.

Noted. Disagreed. But as your concern of knowability is an unprovable philosophical conundrum, there isn't anything further to discuss. Yes all data here should obviously be taken in context, but if all someone has to offer is rhetoric, they are contributing nothing and debunking nothing. You could at least fight a PvE dragon or something.

xylena_lazarow · May 28

Bushido2513 wrote: »

what's your end goal here?

Get ZOS to notice that Ward is screwing up the competitive end of PvP and rebalance it. Obviously players who do not engage in PvP in this manner are going to have a harder time understanding why exactly Ward is so broken, I have done my best to communicate this, but at the end of the day, it's like we're playing two different games.

TechMaybeHic · May 28

I actually like the new ward because it lets me play sorc in a way I like over the pre-emptive shielding it used to be and I really like the ranged toolkit. But the total value of a shield that is higher than any heal value, and then having a burst heal attached; is way out of line. Just having a tradition burst heal in the range that everyone has now days would have been enough for me albeit arguable that everyone should not have it so high such as NB and Sorc probably fits that same class as high damage and elusive. The elusiveness and ranged vs the tanky melee is another discussion though.