Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513 · May 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Bushido2513 · May 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It was for a moment due to a bug that devs fixed.

So how do you know Ward's values are intended? Sometimes it takes them a while to fix bugs.

The difference would be that people almost unanimously complained about Tarnished. There was no getting around it. Ward has people that like it and people that don't and only ZOS has any real data that can say how much it is or isn't over performing according to their intentions.

xylena_lazarow · May 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The difference would be that people almost unanimously complained about Tarnished

Do you have stats to back that up? I remember some wanted to keep it because it could wipe ball groups.

You also never really answered me. What is it exactly that you contribute here?

Galeriano2 · May 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It was for a moment due to a bug that devs fixed.

So how do you know Ward's values are intended? Sometimes it takes them a while to fix bugs.

They match scaling formula coded in the game, tarnished didn't.

Galeriano2 · May 26

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's an intended and expected design.

Replace Ward with Harness Magicka on your Sorc. Please report on results with CMX. Thank you.

Hardened ward being the strongest shield is an intended and expected design. it is supposed to be stronger than harness magicka or even dampen magic.

Quite frankly it was arcanist arrival that disrupted this state of things because hardened became weaker than impervious so I wouldn't be suprised if one of the reasons ward got buffed by adding heal to it was to make it once again the best shield ability.

You missed the point she was trying to make

If that would be the case I would rather preffer for her to be the one to mention it..

xylena_lazarow · May 26

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If that would be the case I would rather preffer for her to be the one to mention it..

I've been hammering my point over and over and your response is never anything but rhetoric and nitpicks. Not a single CMX, build layout, tooltip screenshot, test analysis, nothing. What do you contribute here?

IncultaWolf · May 26

I think necro bone totem should give everyone inside the AoE a 20k shield every 2 seconds, it would make necromancer competitive against sorc

Galeriano2 · May 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If that would be the case I would rather preffer for her to be the one to mention it..

I've been hammering my point over and over and your response is never anything but rhetoric and nitpicks. Not a single CMX, build layout, tooltip screenshot, test analysis, nothing. What do you contribute here?

You missed the point of my comment though...

Is staying on one particular topic for a moment really that hard?

Caecus0 · May 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

xylena_lazarow · May 26

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You missed the point of my comment though

Didn't miss it, you just haven't provided evidence for it. Numbers, thank you.

Bushido2513 · May 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The difference would be that people almost unanimously complained about Tarnished

Do you have stats to back that up? I remember some wanted to keep it because it could wipe ball groups.

You also never really answered me. What is it exactly that you contribute here?

No stats really but just casually looking at the thread I saw it was clear most thought it was an issue. You're right there were a few that wanted to keep it but from what I saw the majority didn't like it and it certainly didn't end up with people posting any data to try to back up their claims.

What do I add, an alternative viewpoint that without a proper vantage point there's no way to really see the bigger picture. Some seem to think they have it all sorted and I just don't see how that's possible using an incomplete data set.

xylena_lazarow · May 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

What do I add, an alternative viewpoint that without a proper vantage point there's no way to really see the bigger picture. Some seem to think they have it all sorted and I just don't see how that's possible using an incomplete data set.

Your viewpoint is unsupported. You have no data set at all, not even an incomplete one. Please provide, thanks.

Bushido2513 · May 26

Caecus0 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

Actually I never said anyone was wrong, just that they haven't really proved anything as it pertains to understanding if this change should be reverted or changed again. We just don't have enough information to say positively one way or another.

I'm not saying don't add a viewpoint but I am saying that people providing "data" aren't really doing anything but giving a mathematical representation of their experience on a subject that needs to be looked at from a larger perspective of general population experience.

I hope that ZOS devs aren't sitting around saying hey man check out my cmx, let's change this. I hope they are saying hey look at the population of mag sorcs, their k/d ratio, their HPS and let's do a comparison to pre change numbers and see if this is trending correctly or if we might have made a mistake.

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful. For me yes the buff aids in my survivability but I also don't play anywhere near meta so it's not affecting me as much as it might some others. Now I could add that to the pile and say well ward isn't really that big of a deal based on my gameplay but I can understand that this would be subjective and not really much info based on whoever else might be running it differently.

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class, your particular build, types of enemies you face, playing solo or group, etc. Trying to make it about very basic math isn't going to do well at encompassing all of this. That's why I prefer the more true model of back end data that doesn't lie. Only zos has this so I have to rely on them to see the issue that people are talking about here and use their own models to adjust.

xylena_lazarow · May 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful

No I assure you it would help. Please give data. Thank you.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class

Feel? When I click Ward I feel like I am exploiting a bug.

TechMaybeHic · May 27

It's been a bit tongue in cheek to joke about hardened ward somehow being balanced. Total effective health of hardened ward is 40% higher than any traditional burst heal. Grant it, it's heavily weighted in the shield part so better at proactive damage than others at just recovering empty health while not being damaged, but I'd argue it's more important while still under pressure to have the better number. You could still streak away and dark deal behind LOS or just keep vigor ticking under that proactive shield. All things aside, it's still 40% more and that is no small number

Bushido2513 · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

What do I add, an alternative viewpoint that without a proper vantage point there's no way to really see the bigger picture. Some seem to think they have it all sorted and I just don't see how that's possible using an incomplete data set.

Your viewpoint is unsupported. You have no data set at all, not even an incomplete one. Please provide, thanks.

My viewpoint is that no real conclusions can be drawn because none of us have access to that data. How would you like me to provide data to you that I don't have access to ?

See you're asking me to get involved by providing incomplete data to refute existing claims supported by incomplete data. I mean why would I take the time when that argument goes nowhere because neither side is actually proving anything.

Bushido2513 · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful

No I assure you it would help. Please give data. Thank you.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class

Feel? When I click Ward I feel like I am exploiting a bug.

Ok here's an interesting question then. I'm going to go along with your train of thought for a second. Is there any data output that I could give you that would at all convince you that ward is just fine? Because if you just want me to spit out data that confirms a point you already have confirmed in your mind then really there's no point?

And if you're just trying to get me to create data so that you can then say see look you can't deny it, well that's gong nowhere because I don't believe individual data sets tell us all that much about how something works out in the overall game based on random builds, fight scenarios, etc.

Also if people are going to give data and not test every available scenario then I might as well just take any cmx out there and present it to you because it's just as inaccurate for representation of the full effect of this change.

StaticWave · May 27

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's an intended and expected design.

Replace Ward with Harness Magicka on your Sorc. Please report on results with CMX. Thank you.

Hardened ward being the strongest shield is an intended and expected design. it is supposed to be stronger than harness magicka or even dampen magic.

Quite frankly it was arcanist arrival that disrupted this state of things because hardened became weaker than impervious so I wouldn't be suprised if one of the reasons ward got buffed by adding heal to it was to make it once again the best shield ability.

You missed the point she was trying to make

If that would be the case I would rather preffer for her to be the one to mention it..

Why would she? You're just gonna nitpick and argue with zero evidence like you did to ppl who disagree with you lmao

xylena_lazarow · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Is there any data output that I could give you that would at all convince you that ward is just fine?

Why yes, in fact I've asked repeatedly ITT for:

your build and Ward tooltip for context

CMX showing other skills performing similar to Ward

CMX showing other classes performing similar to MagSorc

StaticWave · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

Actually I never said anyone was wrong, just that they haven't really proved anything as it pertains to understanding if this change should be reverted or changed again. We just don't have enough information to say positively one way or another.

I'm not saying don't add a viewpoint but I am saying that people providing "data" aren't really doing anything but giving a mathematical representation of their experience on a subject that needs to be looked at from a larger perspective of general population experience.

I hope that ZOS devs aren't sitting around saying hey man check out my cmx, let's change this. I hope they are saying hey look at the population of mag sorcs, their k/d ratio, their HPS and let's do a comparison to pre change numbers and see if this is trending correctly or if we might have made a mistake.

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful. For me yes the buff aids in my survivability but I also don't play anywhere near meta so it's not affecting me as much as it might some others. Now I could add that to the pile and say well ward isn't really that big of a deal based on my gameplay but I can understand that this would be subjective and not really much info based on whoever else might be running it differently.

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class, your particular build, types of enemies you face, playing solo or group, etc. Trying to make it about very basic math isn't going to do well at encompassing all of this. That's why I prefer the more true model of back end data that doesn't lie. Only zos has this so I have to rely on them to see the issue that people are talking about here and use their own models to adjust.

The problem I have with your argument is you're relying too much on ZOS to do their own testing, when they are literally out of touch with their own game and are known to push back important changes.

Corrosive Armor took 2 years to be nerfed. Concealed Weapon took 6 patches (U35 to U41), to have its unique 10% dmg done turned into Major Berserk and now a specific 10% only for Concealed. During those 2 years and 6 patches people have been bombarding the forums with threads complaining about how broken DK and NB are, right from the first few months. They gave the same arguments as I did, with CMX data and videos/whatever they could muster up to prove their case. And they were right, their experience in PvP showed exactly what they complained about. Do you honestly believe ZOS devs play their own game at a level we play? Because if we're going to wait for them to gather data, then players will leave.

It's like me sitting inside my house watching the news and the news says there's a tornado coming near my area, but I'm like "I'll wait to see if my neighborhood gets **** up or not, then i'll leave".

Bushido2513 · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why yes, in fact I've asked repeatedly ITT for:

your build and Ward tooltip for context

See how is this helpful? What if I put on a build and cp that does nothing for my ward then I join a group with a dedicated healer and use other heals other than ward?

Then you're just going to say oh well if you're going to use that build or go be by a healer the test is invalid. But the problem is that this is actually how the game is played for some so in that scenario is ward op or is the dedicated healer op?

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why yes, in fact I've asked repeatedly ITT for:

CMX showing other skills performing similar to Ward

So again if I build my ward weak the put on a build where other healing skills will then be stronger you'll just say that's not a fair test either.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why yes, in fact I've asked repeatedly ITT for:

CMX showing other classes performing similar to MagSorc

Again if I alter the builds I can make the numbers look like they are performing at a similar level.

Now sure you can say that's not really in good faith but what I'm saying to you is that the point is not everyone runs the same build, or plays pvp the same way, or at the same level. So looking at the data from one person here or there doesn't really tell you much about what's going on out in actual open world pvp. It just tells you a version of what it could look like but as I just explained, that version can vary wildly and without data on that we're not getting a full picture from just one cmx here or there.

I'm not against providing useful and concrete data. I'm just saying any data I provide isn't going to reflect all of pvp and therefore isn't very useful or concrete.

Like I said, if you want to see a cmx from me just pick any old cmx that's already been posted because that's just as random and not helpful as anything I'd be giving you.

Bushido2513 · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

Actually I never said anyone was wrong, just that they haven't really proved anything as it pertains to understanding if this change should be reverted or changed again. We just don't have enough information to say positively one way or another.

I'm not saying don't add a viewpoint but I am saying that people providing "data" aren't really doing anything but giving a mathematical representation of their experience on a subject that needs to be looked at from a larger perspective of general population experience.

I hope that ZOS devs aren't sitting around saying hey man check out my cmx, let's change this. I hope they are saying hey look at the population of mag sorcs, their k/d ratio, their HPS and let's do a comparison to pre change numbers and see if this is trending correctly or if we might have made a mistake.

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful. For me yes the buff aids in my survivability but I also don't play anywhere near meta so it's not affecting me as much as it might some others. Now I could add that to the pile and say well ward isn't really that big of a deal based on my gameplay but I can understand that this would be subjective and not really much info based on whoever else might be running it differently.

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class, your particular build, types of enemies you face, playing solo or group, etc. Trying to make it about very basic math isn't going to do well at encompassing all of this. That's why I prefer the more true model of back end data that doesn't lie. Only zos has this so I have to rely on them to see the issue that people are talking about here and use their own models to adjust.

The problem I have with your argument is you're relying too much on ZOS to do their own testing, when they are literally out of touch with their own game and are known to push back important changes.

Corrosive Armor took 2 years to be nerfed. Concealed Weapon took 6 patches (U35 to U41), to have its unique 10% dmg done turned into Major Berserk and now a specific 10% only for Concealed. During those 2 years and 6 patches people have been bombarding the forums with threads complaining about how broken DK and NB are, right from the first few months. They gave the same arguments as I did, with CMX data and videos/whatever they could muster up to prove their case. And they were right, their experience in PvP showed exactly what they complained about. Do you honestly believe ZOS devs play their own game at a level we play? Because if we're going to wait for them to gather data, then players will leave.

It's like me sitting inside my house watching the news and the news says there's a tornado coming near my area, but I'm like "I'll wait to see if my neighborhood gets **** up or not, then i'll leave".

I'm not relying on them as much as I'm admitting that they have all the power here. They have the data to make the choices and the power to implement those choices. Sure I can say this or that about ward but at the end of the day they will just do whatever they want. This is actually what they have been doing for some time now.

All we can do is write out our thoughts and hope that their next move happens to align with what we wanted. But when it comes to balance I'm pretty sure they don't play the game and just rely on metrics to make moves. I'm also pretty sure that any metric you as a player can provide won't mean much of anything to them when they can just alt tab to a window of pure server gathered data and make choices from there.

This is actually like you sitting outside your house thinking because your knee hurts or you can smell it in the air that a storm is coming and ZOS sitting somewhere with a full blow weather radar tracking the movement of the storm system while eating popcorn.

Maybe you're right, maybe a storm is coming, me I don't see it as a storm and for now I'm content to wait on the weather report instead of all the individual subjective speculation.

Caecus0 · May 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

Actually I never said anyone was wrong, just that they haven't really proved anything as it pertains to understanding if this change should be reverted or changed again.

Posters have provided CMX data inferring that Hardened Ward is overperforming. You have repeatedly said the data they have provided is not enough. They clearly think it is enough. That means you think they are wrong. You may not have used the exact word, but it's very clear that is what your stance is.

You have also directly compared the Sorc to the NB, stating that you could take things away from the NB and they'd function, while taking anything away from the Sorc could easily cripple it. Others have clearly disagreed. That means you think they are wrong.

If someone takes a bite of food, winces, then throws the food in the garbage, one can infer that they didn't like the food. You, however, seem to be acting like because they didn't utter the exact words "I didn't like the food" that they can unironically correct someone who thought they didn't like the food by saying "I never said I didn't like the food." It's flat out sophistry.

What you seem to be doing is taking the stance that you think Sorcerers seem fine to you, but deliberately not stating it outright so you can dance around the issue and put the onus on others to prove their point by saying "they haven't proven anything" to distract them from the fact you don't seem to have a counterpoint. It comes off as bad faith.

I will make my stance clear again: The Ward buff has pushed Sorcerer from being tricky to fight into outright frustrating. Others clearly share that sentiment. CMX and population data has been provided to back this up, as well as other player experiences. I personally think the easiest way to deal with this would be to revert the Ward changes, but I'm open to better ideas. If you think that Sorcerers need the current iteration of Ward in order to function, just take that stance and provide data to back it up.

Turtle_Bot · May 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do your research but just saying it's not proving much other than what you as one person are seeing from just your view in very limited testing.

So what is it you think you have contributed?

I'll take Static's limited testing over another 700 posts of "trust me bro, I'm a MagSorc"

You make one of the most interesting points and I'm really glad you said this.

You show how people are willing to fill in a gap with limited data when the actual data is either hard to get, not palatable, or unavailable simply because it's easier to understand or aligns with a view they can get with.

Taking the simple answer doesn't make it any more correct, just one that's easier for you to digest.

As I've been saying, nobody has the actual data needed to understand how this change is actually affecting pvp as a whole.

Multiple other posters, including those who either main or play MagSorc, are saying that MagSorc has gotten out of control due to this buff. You were then provided data on how much Hardened Ward is overperforming compared to other heals, as well as numbers showing how the population is shifting more toward Sorcerers all of a sudden. Despite this, you essentially are still sticking to "No you're wrong, you haven't shown me enough data. I know this because I'm a MagSorc." You then set an unreasonable standard by putting the onus on everyone else to gather data that you know to be out of their reach while providing none of your own. Enough data has been given that it at least warrants legwork on your end. In the debate sphere we call that being bad faith.

I have no exact data to give you, but I do Battlegrounds a lot, and tend to hover in the high-ish MMR territory along with several of my guildies. I have been seeing ALOT more MagSorcs than before, to the point where I have been seeing entire teams of nothing but MagSorcs. Other player's in these Battleground lobbies are also noticing it, and we all know why.

I have stated in prior thread that the entirety of the Sorcerer's kit doesn't just make them difficult to fight, but frustrating. If the number of MagSorcs is growing to the point where we will have entire teams of them, it ends up making the entire PvP experience more frustrating. How would that not be affecting PvP as a whole?

Actually I never said anyone was wrong, just that they haven't really proved anything as it pertains to understanding if this change should be reverted or changed again. We just don't have enough information to say positively one way or another.

I'm not saying don't add a viewpoint but I am saying that people providing "data" aren't really doing anything but giving a mathematical representation of their experience on a subject that needs to be looked at from a larger perspective of general population experience.

I hope that ZOS devs aren't sitting around saying hey man check out my cmx, let's change this. I hope they are saying hey look at the population of mag sorcs, their k/d ratio, their HPS and let's do a comparison to pre change numbers and see if this is trending correctly or if we might have made a mistake.

Also just to note on why giving data from my experience wouldn't be helpful. For me yes the buff aids in my survivability but I also don't play anywhere near meta so it's not affecting me as much as it might some others. Now I could add that to the pile and say well ward isn't really that big of a deal based on my gameplay but I can understand that this would be subjective and not really much info based on whoever else might be running it differently.

Also game experience isn't just about math, it's about how you feel about playing a class, your particular build, types of enemies you face, playing solo or group, etc. Trying to make it about very basic math isn't going to do well at encompassing all of this. That's why I prefer the more true model of back end data that doesn't lie. Only zos has this so I have to rely on them to see the issue that people are talking about here and use their own models to adjust.

The problem I have with your argument is you're relying too much on ZOS to do their own testing, when they are literally out of touch with their own game and are known to push back important changes.

Corrosive Armor took 2 years to be nerfed. Concealed Weapon took 6 patches (U35 to U41), to have its unique 10% dmg done turned into Major Berserk and now a specific 10% only for Concealed. During those 2 years and 6 patches people have been bombarding the forums with threads complaining about how broken DK and NB are, right from the first few months. They gave the same arguments as I did, with CMX data and videos/whatever they could muster up to prove their case. And they were right, their experience in PvP showed exactly what they complained about. Do you honestly believe ZOS devs play their own game at a level we play? Because if we're going to wait for them to gather data, then players will leave.

It's like me sitting inside my house watching the news and the news says there's a tornado coming near my area, but I'm like "I'll wait to see if my neighborhood gets **** up or not, then i'll leave".

To be fair here, it took only 1 patch for Arctic blast and Wall of Frost to get nerfed (U35 they got buffed, U36 they got nerfed).

Not sure how many truly remember that patch, but perma CC wardens were everywhere, even though DK was still the true king of PvP, plars had the PotL bug and NB had just gotten quite possibly the biggest round of buffs ever seen in ESO's history.

Majority of other fast changes were long ago (when I assume ZOS had more staff available to fix these things) but it's not like ZOS hasn't been quick to change something in recent times.

StaticWave · May 27

Here's a 1v3 I did in Cyrodiil earlier on my 37k HP hybrid stamsorc:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8

Total DPS I took from 3 players:

My HPS:

My only sources of movement speed was Minor Expedition and 3x medium armor. No Celerity CP. Watch how I could kite those players so easily with Streak and movement speed around corners, and Ward up when I'm at risk of dying. I was also playing with 300 ping, fyi.

HPS breakdown:
Ward (shield portion): 20.6%
Ward (heal portion): 10.4%
Vigor: 24.7%
Surge: 19.2%
Blood Magic: 7.0%

In a 1v1, Blood Magic usually contributes more to my HPS than Ward's burst heal because I'm able to land more light attacks. In Cyrodiil, Ward's burst heal is going to contribute more to my HPS because I have to kite more often.

@Galeriano2 this is why your claim about me losing healing from Blood Magic only applies to a duel. In a BG/Cyrodiil fight, I am going to GAIN healing from Blood Magic because I'm kiting and playing defense more. It's a net buff for Sorc next patch.

Notice how Ward's burst heal accounted for 10.4% of my burst heal, which is comparable to other classes' burst heal. How do you expect to kill a decent sorc main with 3 HoTs, a shield with a burst heal, good movement speed, and Streak without zerging him down?

Zabagad · May 27

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But this is where I can't follow OPs logic any longer. If you use ward preemptively, by design it will absorb dmg before it touches your health. If my health bar doesn't move, I won't need to get healed by HOTs. So surely it's the one big contributor in CMX. But maybe I just a fault in my way of thinking here.

No, you are absolutely right with that assumption.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You guys gonna keep ignoring that this does 86% for MagSorc?

And you don't stop posting this [snip] exaggerations?
This example was in your special phase where you did so many "buff NB" posts that nobody could take you serious. (at least I didn't)
But if you repost it now - it looks like you really think this 86% example would be a valid argument?

Ok - then I give you some CMX-"data" (I took my usual build and changed 1 or 2 skills for all "data"):

I start with this one:

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Replace Ward with Harness Magicka on your Sorc. Please report on results with CMX. Thank you.

And I give you one for vigor instead of ward too:

Yes - sorry both only 83% and not 86%

(I didn't realized that my vamp 4 status was switching to 3 - so unfortunately I got some base healing - otherwise dampen vigor would be 87%

)

And a small compare dampen+vigor vs ward+surge:

Uh - dampen is stronger then ward? (I'm not serious with that!)
You see? I can "proof" everything I want to proof with CMX_healing data.
If you want to see 86% surge or entropy - let me know

If you want to see a fight where ward is doing less then 20% of my healing - I slot vigor+surge+ward and I'm pretty sure I'm able to get this - but I have to change my "style".

Conclusion: If you want to show something is OP (at least regarding healing in percent!) you can do the fight in a style to show excactly what you want.
And disclaimer: I agree ward is to strong (especially in 1:1 - with more opponents the OPness is shrinking)

StaticWave · May 27

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

It's actually not quite clear at all and that's the problem with this thread. People are trying to simplify a complicated thing and that usually leads to flawed evaluations.

I don't doubt that ward can feel like it's over performing but I've also experienced cases where it doesn't feel special at all.

This thread is just a bunch of players giving their individual takes on ward with some passing off their observations as conclusive evidence for one side or the other.

It doesn't feel overperforming. It is overperforming based on CMX data. I can show multiple screenshots of CMX data from Cyrodiil, BG, and dueling and even if the screenshots show Ward + its burst heal doing more than 30-40% of my total healing, you will still not be convinced lol.

This is just how CMX represents what Ward has absorbed throughout a fight. I used surge, dark conversion, and blood magic to heal under my ward, like a good little Mag Sorc should do.

.

I like the ideas of reducing the free max mag and swapping it into crit chance / changing the scaling of ward or changing the heal to a HOT.
But this is where I can't follow OPs logic any longer. If you use ward preemptively, by design it will absorb dmg before it touches your health. If my health bar doesn't move, I won't need to get healed by HOTs. So surely it's the one big contributor in CMX. But maybe I just a fault in my way of thinking here.

@Jsmalls @Chilly-McFreeze

Sure, let's look at a CMX screenshot from a 1v3 I did in Cyrodiil earlier today:

Here's a clip of me going through that CMX screenshot in case someone says I could have taken that from a different fight:

https://youtu.be/L7vYRhaJLEw

Here's the clip of that 1v3 in case you don't believe me. Just look at the names of the players and check with the names on CMX data:

https://youtu.be/7tE1NvPn7H8

The shield portion of Ward did 20.6% of my HPS. The burst heal portion did 10.4%. Combined they did 31% of my HPS.

10.4% for the burst heal. Using a normal burst heal instead of Ward in that same fight may yield 15% HPS at best.

Galeriano2 · May 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You missed the point of my comment though

Didn't miss it, you just haven't provided evidence for it. Numbers, thank you.

Numbers and evidence for what excatly?

Bushido2513 · May 27

Caecus0 wrote: »

Posters have provided CMX data inferring that Hardened Ward is overperforming. You have repeatedly said the data they have provided is not enough. They clearly think it is enough. That means you think they are wrong. You may not have used the exact word, but it's very clear that is what your stance is.

No I said it wasn't proof of anything in regards to answering the larger question of how the ward change is effecting pvp. Saying that I think something doesn't prove something isn't the same as saying I think that the thing is wrong. I'm simply saying that the point they were trying to prove hasn't been yet proven to me by what has been presented. So I'm more so saying not that the evidence is wrong but that there isn't enough there to convince me. As I've said many times I believe the data that would make a convincing argument is just data that we don't have access to.

Caecus0 wrote: »

You have also directly compared the Sorc to the NB, stating that you could take things away from the NB and they'd function, while taking anything away from the Sorc could easily cripple it. Others have clearly disagreed. That means you think they are wrong.

This was in talking about The toolkit of sorc as compared to nightblade and this was an opinion I stated. Opinions aren't right or wrong because they aren't being stated as facts. I can have that opinion about the toolkit and someone else can have another opinion. Doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong, we just see it differently.

Caecus0 wrote: »

If someone takes a bite of food, winces, then throws the food in the garbage, one can infer that they didn't like the food. You, however, seem to be acting like because they didn't utter the exact words "I didn't like the food" that they can unironically correct someone who thought they didn't like the food by saying "I never said I didn't like the food." It's flat out sophistry.

Well they could have also just hit a nerve ending in their tooth, had a sudden onset of nausea, or had any one of several things happen in their body that caused them to no longer desire the food. I personally would just ask them why they threw the food away if I was that curious rather than trying to assume if I was that curious and wanted to be correct about understanding what happened. And yes if they didn't answer I suppose I would only have my assumptions to go off of but I wouldn't try to pass them off as proof of anything to anyone.

Caecus0 wrote: »

What you seem to be doing is taking the stance that you think Sorcerers seem fine to you, but deliberately not stating it outright so you can dance around the issue and put the onus on others to prove their point by saying "they haven't proven anything" to distract them from the fact you don't seem to have a counterpoint. It comes off as bad faith.

What I'm saying is that while the change to sorcerer isn't really bothering me that I can recognize that others have issues with it. I also want people to share views because that's part of what we're here for. What I don't support is people making it seem like a subjective view such as CMX data tells the reality of the story of this change's effects on pvp as a whole. The data of one or even several players in isolated instances is just not a way to fully test and understand the effects of this change across the randomness of all that is part of the pvp experience. I'm not dismissing the accounts of what players are seeing, just saying it's not the same as the data zos uses to balance the game.

No counterpoint can be made when there's not much of a point in the first place. Why would I counter cmx data from one persons perspective when the proposed issue needs to be looked at from a larger back end data set? All this would really show is ok you ran a build, then I ran a build and here's what we got. What does that tell me about someone else that runs 1 of the other 1000 build combinations out there who maybe has a healer around, or maybe is in a zerg heavy attacking, or maybe doesn't understand shield uptime or how to not get outnumbered by standing in a field trying to face tank 3 people?

I'm not trying to see the game balanced around one or even seven players experiences but rather around data that can be seen on the back end that shows a clearer view of the battle from all player interactions.

Caecus0 wrote: »

If you think that Sorcerers need the current iteration of Ward in order to function, just take that stance and provide data to back it up.

For my build in particular the ward change made some difference obviously but I also found great success for my playstyle before the change. So for me I could go either way on the change. Now that's me and I obviously can't speak for others and how this change may or may not be needed for them to play sorc. I don't mind going up against this version of ward for the record but again I understand others may find it more problematic.

It's not a simple question to just say do I think sorcs need the current iteration of ward because there are multiple smaller questions that I can't really answer.

For instance I am usually solo so for me the ward change helps because when you're outnumbered in this game you almost need every advantage.

But I can't really speak on how this change relates to those that like to join anywhere from a small group to a full blown zerg.

I also don't duel at all anymore because it's basically pretty imbalanced with a high potential for a toxic experience in my experience. So I can't speak for how this affects duels other than to say the cmx data there does seem more relevant. But then you have to ask how large is the dueling community? Maybe big or small, I wouldn't really know.

I primarily spend my time in IC and high MMR BGS but even so I can understand that any data I provided would only be subjective at that point and wouldn't really tell the story of the multiple scenarios that I described that I don't even play in.

Is the ward change bad or good overall for pvp? I don't believe anyone here including myself has all the data needed to give a solid answer to that question.

xylena_lazarow · May 27

@Zabagad what were you doing while obtaining those numbers? Are these staged or wild? I was at Aleswell FD zerg surfing for 3-5 minutes for mine. How did it feel without a burst heal attached? Those numbers tell me that if a big shield alone is enough to carry your healing like that, then the burst heal on Ward is indeed overkill.

One thing that confuses me, if you agree that Ward is overperforming, why is it you take issue with my CMX data and not the literal thousand "trust me bro I'm a MagSorc" posts ITT that contribute literally nothing? Why are you trying to support the Ward apologists' claim that my CMX data isn't meaningful, instead of trying to help provide better CMX data to support what you say you believe, which is that Ward is overperforming?