Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But until something like that happens I don't see ward as an issue for the intended game experience when compared to other classes in that same experience.

Sorc is intended to face tank? Class identity, everyone.

Well yes the game is leaning more towards being accessible and less towards class identity. It's really more of a what you make of it situation

Then imo Streak should be nerfed

Why when it's so easily invalidated by any player that even halfway wants to?

Streak doesn't bother me but why do you want it nerfed? Don't like people being able to run away or just the unblockable stun?

Because you can't have all. Look at other classes. They're not teleporting 15m away at will. Sorc currently has tankiness, damage, sustain, and elusiveness. You need to nerf one. I proposed for a tankiness nerf and ppl don't want that, so let's nerf elusiveness for fairness.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But until something like that happens I don't see ward as an issue for the intended game experience when compared to other classes in that same experience.

Sorc is intended to face tank? Class identity, everyone.

Well yes the game is leaning more towards being accessible and less towards class identity. It's really more of a what you make of it situation

Then imo Streak should be nerfed

Why when it's so easily invalidated by any player that even halfway wants to?

Streak doesn't bother me but why do you want it nerfed? Don't like people being able to run away or just the unblockable stun?

Because you can't have all. Look at other classes. They're not teleporting 15m away at will. Sorc currently has tankiness, damage, sustain, and elusiveness. You need to nerf one. I proposed for a tankiness nerf and ppl don't want that, so let's nerf elusiveness for fairness.

The problem is that you will never make people happy, no matter which thing you try to nerf. And it's not just those players who will be getting nerfed that won't be happy, it's the other players who want things nerfed that also won't be happy because it will never go far enough for those people.

Not sure if you remember my thread from back in U36 with the ideas I put forward for proposed changes for sorc?

I had in that thread, as a nerf to sorc to give it a full powered burst heal that was an alternative morph to ward (not a combination of ward + heal, i.e. vibrant shroud but as a self burst heal), was to remove the stun from streak and make it a snare. This forces the sorc to find bar space to fit a stun and would be just like the other classes who want to slot mist form for a teleport + keep a stun in their builds since streak would no longer do both.

Do you know what the response was to that suggestion?
The pro sorcs:
Sorc will be dead, unplayable, etc.
The anti-sorcs:
This nerf doesn't go far enough, streak should just be deleted, etc.

Neither side even bothered to look at the trade offs or nuances of that idea and how that change would actually bring streak much closer to blood mist in terms of power (in a vacuum) and the choices it forces sorcs to make when building the class. None of that mattered to them, it was all just "sorc must be deleted from the game" or "sorc needs everything and more".

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So if the gun is best in most scenarios how does that invalidate me saying that I'd still pick the knife in some scenarios?

Going into an uncertain scenario, which are you choosing: gun or knife?

You definitely take the gun in that case because it gives you the most versatility. You definitely also take the gun if it has a suppressor.

Dracane

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Some of your more recent comments are stretching a bit. I recognize that what you mentioned was for the "meta" playstyle but Bound Aegis has been a viable option for several patches now, I wouldn't consider it a buff for "this patch".

Running all magicka enchants? Try walking around with 24-26k health in cyrodiil (you're assuming everyone runs death dealer fete which would put you on that higher side of 26-27k). I tried 24k health recently in Open world Cryodiil, and I got bullied. And I would consider myself pretty good at positioning and defensive play. That loss of 8% health was also always active if you used Bound Aegis so from that 10% additional passive you had to reassign about 5% of that value back to your health if you wanted to stay at the same threshold as before. I generally play with the lowest health threshold possible (because I've always been pretty solid with Ward usage) and even I can't handle health values with all Magicka enchants.

I've stated in the past ~1-2 years ago that Sorcs were NOT in a good place damage wise. I'm pretty sure we compared setups stat for stat between myself and metallic monk back in those times and I was ahead in flat damage and he was ahead in crit damage but numerically nothing was an outlier from either side.

Back in those times frags were hitting for 6-8k and curses for 4-6k. This is when Sorcerers were at their WORST in my opinion. Everyone has 35k health, those values weren't doing anything.

Then we got minor berserk/force on dark conversion/deal, bound aegis 8% was active on both bars, and now we got 10% more magicka as a passive.

So it seems ZoS agreed that's Sorcs damage was NOT in a good place.

And maybe I'm bias but I think right now it's exactly where it should be. You're seeing 10k frags? Perfect. If a player is setup for damage that's where it should be. You have Merciless resolve hitting for 50% higher than that on a brawler blade. Sorcs are suppose to be competitive with Nightblades burst.

@Turtle_Bot and @StaticWave

If we lose the magicka passives we're going to be right back where we were 2 years ago. Mediocre damage and mediocre defense. Vibrant Shroud may be a viable burst heal next update, but it still doesn't synergize with low health recovery like other classes do.

Ward is very close to being well balanced. I would like to see how the HoT would play out. But once again the initial ward value is around where it needs to be (with outliers above 55k magicka). I play around a lot with what values feel comfortable open world. Go play with Dampen Magicka at a 13k value open world and let me know how it feels (this is rhetorical I can tell you it feels AWFUL).

That's where we're gonna be at with Hardened Ward with a HoT and loss of that 15% magicka "passives".

You'll be FORCED into the same cookie cutter setups to make Ward even an option. 50k magicka feels like the MINIMUM to play competitively with (outside of Rallying Cry). That would force crafty alfiq / ancient grace into every Mag Sorc setup in the game. And we don't even know what that feels like with a HoT instead of a burst heal right now.

Then damage would take a massive hit. Would be slightly higher than those values from 2 years ago. Sorcs will once again have a mediocre offense in today's meta.

I think the 10% Magicka passive did a great job in offering the ability to diversify set choices while still have the option for Ward to be viable. It's overpowered with specifics setups at moment and Overtuned with meta setups.

But toss on something other than 60k magicka and Rallying cry and you'll quickly see that its not completely out of line with current healing capabilities.

Spot on there. People only stack so much magicka because it's needed to bring Ward up to speed. Nobody takes pleasure in doing it, because despite all the new modifiers, magicka is still an inefficient stat for damage, and also forces you to think twice about using proc sets.

If lower magicka values would suffice to reach large enough wards, most would not stack more than needed. They would rather stack into crit or spell damage. Me anyway.
There would still be some who increase their magicka further, but they sacrifice a fair deal of damage to do so. So let them.

ZoS was 100% right to give Sorcerer more passive magicka. Also, doesn't it feel awesome to have an identity?
Nightblades have the highest crit, Sorcs have the highest magicka and so on. It feels good to be highest in something; even when it's a faaar worse stat than crit or weapon damage.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

ZoS was 100% right to give Sorcerer more passive magicka. Also, doesn't it feel awesome to have an identity?
Nightblades have the highest crit, Sorcs have the highest magicka and so on. It feels good to be highest in something; even when it's a faaar worse stat than crit or weapon damage.

If only stamsorc could also stack as much max stam and and have Ward scaling with mag stam and max mag instead of just max mag lol

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But until something like that happens I don't see ward as an issue for the intended game experience when compared to other classes in that same experience.

Sorc is intended to face tank? Class identity, everyone.

Well yes the game is leaning more towards being accessible and less towards class identity. It's really more of a what you make of it situation

Then imo Streak should be nerfed

Why when it's so easily invalidated by any player that even halfway wants to?

Streak doesn't bother me but why do you want it nerfed? Don't like people being able to run away or just the unblockable stun?

Because you can't have all. Look at other classes. They're not teleporting 15m away at will. Sorc currently has tankiness, damage, sustain, and elusiveness. You need to nerf one. I proposed for a tankiness nerf and ppl don't want that, so let's nerf elusiveness for fairness.

But then what do we do about a DK or NB that can run 2 Swift and have enough speed to catch the sorc and still have enough damage to hurt it?

I know this thread is about sorc but still we have to acknowledge the very common threats sorc has to face that can easily nullify streak if the enemy wants to.

I agree one class shouldn't have it all but clearly ZOS is going for classes that kind of can do it all

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But until something like that happens I don't see ward as an issue for the intended game experience when compared to other classes in that same experience.

Sorc is intended to face tank? Class identity, everyone.

Well yes the game is leaning more towards being accessible and less towards class identity. It's really more of a what you make of it situation

Then imo Streak should be nerfed

Why when it's so easily invalidated by any player that even halfway wants to?

Streak doesn't bother me but why do you want it nerfed? Don't like people being able to run away or just the unblockable stun?

Because you can't have all. Look at other classes. They're not teleporting 15m away at will. Sorc currently has tankiness, damage, sustain, and elusiveness. You need to nerf one. I proposed for a tankiness nerf and ppl don't want that, so let's nerf elusiveness for fairness.

But then what do we do about a DK or NB that can run 2 Swift and have enough speed to catch the sorc and still have enough damage to hurt it?

I know this thread is about sorc but still we have to acknowledge the very common threats sorc has to face that can easily nullify streak if the enemy wants to.

I agree one class shouldn't have it all but clearly ZOS is going for classes that kind of can do it all

We gradually nerf them. It took a while for Corrosive to be nerfed and Concealed to be nerfed but we're getting there.

NB actually needs to slot SSC to do any respectable damage now compared to previous versions where it just gets Major Berserk on Concealed and could run other mythic and not be penalized by the SSC snare. A magsorc is going to bully a NB with SSC now, and if that NB doesn't have SSC then it's either not doing enough damage to kill the Sorc, or doing enough damage but is too squishy to survive the sorc's burst combo.

DK has to run specific skills and builds to counter the magsorc. It will have to stack a lot of damage like NB to have a chance of killing the magsorc. Any investment into survivability/speed will not give it the damage to go thru that 15k shield. Sorc can also slot Hurricane now too, so it will be even harder for swift users to catch up to a Streaking sorc with fast movement speed.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ZoS was 100% right to give Sorcerer more passive magicka. Also, doesn't it feel awesome to have an identity?
Nightblades have the highest crit, Sorcs have the highest magicka and so on. It feels good to be highest in something; even when it's a faaar worse stat than crit or weapon damage.

If only stamsorc could also stack as much max stam and and have Ward scaling with mag stam and max mag instead of just max mag lol

You don't have to bother with magicka. You can stack weapon damage, which is a much more effective stat for damage and healing. Though that will remain somewhat limited with Sorcerer for as long as Crit Surge has a fix value that doesn't scale.

But yea, Stamsorc can also have the highest stam out of all classes if it wants. There is just no point. Sadly, Magsorc has no choice. Ward only scales off of magicka as an offensive stat.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ZoS was 100% right to give Sorcerer more passive magicka. Also, doesn't it feel awesome to have an identity?
Nightblades have the highest crit, Sorcs have the highest magicka and so on. It feels good to be highest in something; even when it's a faaar worse stat than crit or weapon damage.

If only stamsorc could also stack as much max stam and and have Ward scaling with mag stam and max mag instead of just max mag lol

You don't have to bother with magicka. You can stack weapon damage, which is a much more effective stat for damage and healing. Though that will remain somewhat limited with Sorcerer for as long as Crit Surge has a fix value that doesn't scale.

But yea, Stamsorc can also have the highest stam out of all classes if it wants. There is just no point. Sadly, Magsorc has no choice. Ward only scales off of magicka as an offensive stat.

Damage is not the problem. It's survivability. You don't have to invest heavily into damage for Cyrodiil and BG like you would for dueling, which is kinda ironic because people disregard dueling as a testing tool but dueling is where you actually see how much damage a class lacks.

Anyways, shield is significantly better than a burst heal for me and I'm on a 35k HP stamsorc lol. Can you imagine if I could stack 50k max stam and have shield scale with it? It would honestly be too strong tbh.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

You definitely take the gun in that case because it gives you the most versatility. You definitely also take the gun if it has a suppressor.

Hooray we made progress. So the "guns" in this PvP are Sorc's ranged versatility, and NB's stealth acting like a suppressor. The rest of the classes are melee brawler "knives" that lack these advantages, and open world PvP is exactly the sort of unfamiliar scenario where you want to be wielding a gun, not a knife.

So how do you balance this? You make the knives super strong to overcome the inherent disadvantage, and make the guns a fair amount weaker than guns normally would be (even shooters do this).

Turtle_Bot

Was doing some research into changes to Conjured Ward/morphs, found something interesting:

Who knows (without looking at the spoiler) when the last time Conjured Ward got any significant adjustments (before U37 when the cap got increased).

It was Scalebreaker, mid 2019.

That's right, magsorc has been trying to play modern ESO using a "burst heal" that was based on 4 year old (2019) combat values.

Also, @StaticWave iirc you asked (either here or in another thread) about why magsorc has so much trouble relying on just crit surge and vigor to stay reasonably healthy (this was why I was looking into ward changes for the fun trivia above).
There's a few reasons, but it mostly boils down to the following 4 points (the second point especially):

• Proc sets:
  Proc sets essentially provide passive sources of damage that can critically strike, thus significantly increasing the ability to passively proc crit surge more frequently, and because they all scale off weapon/spell damage and not max mag/stam it's not worth running them on magsorc because if you do, your ward is mediocre at best (sub 11k) unless you sacrifice somewhere else in the build to have both the max mag and raw damage to make both work, whereas stamsorc can just build raw damage since they don't need the max mag (or max stam) for ward.
• There's no mag equivalent for vigor/roll dodge anymore:
  • Ever since regen got nerfed, magsorc struggled with what is the standard stamsorc defensive rotation of vigor into roll dodge into dark conversion. Unlike stamsorc, magsorc needs to have enough stamina for all 3 of these (vigor, roll dodge and conversion), where stamsorc only needs stamina for vigor + roll dodge then their off-stat (mag) for dark deal which refunds the vast majority of the stamina required for vigor + roll dodge.
  • Back when rapid regen was as good as resolving vigor, this wasn't an issue, because magsorc only needed to have enough stamina for roll dodge + conversion and then conversion returned the magicka that was used for regen.
  • This issue is also compounded by BoL being nerfed so much (1 projectile each second for 3 seconds compared to a dodge roll avoiding every targeted attack for 1 second) because it used to be that magsorc could BoL to "dodge-roll" everything for a second or 2 (like dodge roll), but it cost mag instead of stam and as such that also heavily affected the cost of the defensive rotation on magsorc and when combined with pre-nerf regen meant the cost was equal to stamsorcs version of this defensive rotation.
  • That nerf to regen, combined with the nerfs to BoL essentially increased the effective cost of magsorcs defensive rotation by over 200% and all of the cost of that rotation is coming from magsorcs off stat meaning there are significantly less starting resources and recoveries to facilitate multiple defensive rotations already, especially when you also factor in dark conversion not refunding any of the resources used for that defensive rotation.
  • More detailed info (numbers) regarding point 2:
    - For 1 defensive rotation (vigor into roll into dark deal), stamsorc needs to use 7k stamina upfront + 2700 mag, but stamsorc gets 3.6k stamina returned upfront and a bonus 2.4k over 10s (6k return total) thus making its defensive rotation effectively cost 1k stam and 2.7k mag (or 3.7k resources total).
    - Magsorc however, (pre U41) needed to use 10k stamina for 1 defensive rotation of vigor (3k) into roll (4k) into conversion (3.2k) before vamp cost increase.
    - Compare this to back when BoL and regen were both equivalent to dodge roll and vigor in what they blocked/healed respectively where magsorc only had to use 3.2k stam (conversion) + 6.5k mag (BoL + regen) upfront and got 3.6k magicka returned upfront and a bonus 2.4k over 10s (6k return total), meaning 1 defensive rotation used to only cost magsorc 500 mag + 3.2k stam (or 3.7k resources total, or the same total cost as it was for stamsorc) instead of the 10.2k stamina that it costs magsorc now.
    - This is a huge difference in cost for ONE defensive rotation and the more I am thinking about this, the more I am understanding why ZOS chose the route they did when they gave ward the burst heal. I still think it's worth trying the heal out as a HoT instead, but that is a MASSIVE (and quite frankly, extremely unfair) imbalance when it comes to using what should be the exact same defensive rotation between mag and stam specs of the same class.
• Bar space for DoTs:
  Bar space is a huge issue for magsorc specifically, stamsorc somewhat suffers from this issue too, but nowhere near the extent magsorc does.
  This boils down to requiring both bound aegis and inner light on the bars to stack enough mag to make ward strong enough to keep up with the current combat mitigation values.
  On stamsorc, those 2 slots that would be taken up by Inner Light/Bound Aegis to make ward strong are instead replaced with bound armaments (4 chances to proc crit surge every 3-4 seconds), or a sticky DoT like blood craze (that heals whenever it deals damage but also provides an extra chance (not counting status effect procs) to proc crit surge every 2 seconds for 20 seconds).
• The 1s cooldown on Crit surge:
  Magsorc is inherently much more focused around a timed burst combo of curse + overload + frags (or crushing shock or crushing weapon) (much like the snipe-blades of old used to do) as opposed to stamsorc that tends to apply much more pressure via DoTs, overload and armaments and then use that constant pressure to wear the target down to the point where a DB or Dizzy into executioner or a snipe into shards into bow ult is enough to finish the kill. This reliance on burst to kill and with how sorcs kit functions where it lines up multiple abilities to all land within 1GCD with a 3-6 second downtime between each "burst" means that there is a significant downtime where the magsorc is simply not going to be casting anything that would proc crit surge outside of refreshing ele sus or light attack weaving (which stamsorc also does) or if the magsorc gets the chance, it might use a crushing shock/force pulse/frags proc during this downtime, but typically these won't be happening since magsorc will be re-applying buffs or more likely the shield while it waits and tries to survive for the next burst attempt.

TL//DR:
- Magsorc doesn't have the ability to passively trigger crit surge as easily or frequently as stamsorc does.
- Magsorc doesn't have the ability to run procsets to provide additional trigger chances for crit surge like stamsorc does.
- Nerfs to the magicka equivalents of roll dodge and vigor (BoL and Rapid Regen respectively) over the years completely blew out the cost of a singular defensive rotation for magsorc to absurdly unreasonable levels.
- Lack of bar space is significantly more problematic on magsorc than it is on stamsorc, even though stamsorc does have bar space issues.
- Magsorcs offensive rotations/abilities are not designed to synergize as well with crit surge as stamsorcs offensive rotations/abilities have been.

Final thoughts to summarize:
I am very much understanding why ZOS tried the burst heal on ward.

I am assuming that ZOS looked at the ability of stamsorc to passively proc crit surge via good (meta) sticky DoTs such as blood craze and proc sets when playing defensively, combined with the ability to easily slot vigor as well as the effective cost of using a defensive rotation for stamsorc (3.7k effective cost per rotation) and compared that to magsorcs inherent inability to passively trigger crit surge as frequently when playing defensively due to the lack of bar space for sticky DoTs and lack of vigor due to requiring both inner light and bound aegis to make ward big enough and combined that with magsorcs staggering 10k effective cost for each use of their defensive rotation and that's how they reached their conclusion for buffing ward. It was the easiest way to buff ward to have magsorcs defensive rotation be strong like stamsorcs rotation, but it is also likely they didn't intend for the max mag stacking build for ward that we are currently seeing and since adjusting everything to get it right will take some time, they pushed out the burst heal as it is so that at least it is there for magsorcs that really did need something and they can fine tune it later as they get the time (or people) available to do so.

Once again, I'm not saying the burst heal was the best solution for ward/magsorc, but it certainly seems like it was the quickest and easiest to implement and I at least think (hope) I am better understanding ZOS's PoV on ward now.

How I would go about fixing it:

Making the burst heal on ward into a strong HoT would be good to test out (+25% more overall healing, but the healing is over the 6 second duration instead of all upfront). See if that change puts things right in terms of the cost-benefit ratio of a singular defensive rotation for magsorc, but it is likely that there would still need to be some additional tweaks for magsorc if this change to ward (burst heal into a HoT) were to be implemented. Probably have to make tweaks to ward such as a lower cap on the shield size from 72% to 65%, but give it a more aggressive scaling ratio to reduce the dependence on extreme amounts of max mag while also reducing the potential ceiling of the ability at the same time when reaching those extreme amounts of max mag.

Sorry about the long read, but hopefully this helps everyone to understand: why magsorc is so different to stamsorc, why magsorc has struggled so much in the past few years when it comes to defense, why magsorc specifically needed something done to buff its defenses even though stamsorc seemed mostly ok and why you can't just straight up apply the stamsorc playstyle/rotations/logic/thought process to magsorc without making significant adjustments first.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But until something like that happens I don't see ward as an issue for the intended game experience when compared to other classes in that same experience.

Sorc is intended to face tank? Class identity, everyone.

Well yes the game is leaning more towards being accessible and less towards class identity. It's really more of a what you make of it situation

Then imo Streak should be nerfed

Why when it's so easily invalidated by any player that even halfway wants to?

Streak doesn't bother me but why do you want it nerfed? Don't like people being able to run away or just the unblockable stun?

Because you can't have all. Look at other classes. They're not teleporting 15m away at will. Sorc currently has tankiness, damage, sustain, and elusiveness. You need to nerf one. I proposed for a tankiness nerf and ppl don't want that, so let's nerf elusiveness for fairness.

But then what do we do about a DK or NB that can run 2 Swift and have enough speed to catch the sorc and still have enough damage to hurt it?

I know this thread is about sorc but still we have to acknowledge the very common threats sorc has to face that can easily nullify streak if the enemy wants to.

I agree one class shouldn't have it all but clearly ZOS is going for classes that kind of can do it all

We gradually nerf them. It took a while for Corrosive to be nerfed and Concealed to be nerfed but we're getting there.

NB actually needs to slot SSC to do any respectable damage now compared to previous versions where it just gets Major Berserk on Concealed and could run other mythic and not be penalized by the SSC snare. A magsorc is going to bully a NB with SSC now, and if that NB doesn't have SSC then it's either not doing enough damage to kill the Sorc, or doing enough damage but is too squishy to survive the sorc's burst combo.

DK has to run specific skills and builds to counter the magsorc. It will have to stack a lot of damage like NB to have a chance of killing the magsorc. Any investment into survivability/speed will not give it the damage to go thru that 15k shield. Sorc can also slot Hurricane now too, so it will be even harder for swift users to catch up to a Streaking sorc with fast movement speed.

And this I think is where gvg comes into play because I can see your scenarios making sense if it's 1v1 but as I've said I don't think that's what ZOS balances arounds and so that's where playing with your team an focusing down the sorc may come into play.

I mean I'm all for the gradual nerfs but those haven't been coming which is why I'm not against ward in it's current incarnation though I can certainly admit that ZOS as a whole could be doing better for this game when it comes to balance.

xylena_lazarow

@Turtle_Bot how much have you played specs other than MagSorc? I won't claim to be any sort of GOD SORC but switching between MagSorc and StamSorc isn't hard for me, at the end of the day you still need to know how to Streak and land Curse combos. I've also mained Arc which kinda feels halfway between MagSorc and StamSorc.

I feel like you're overlooking the fact that Ward was a compound buff. Recall how what really hurt MagSorcs back in the day was the removal of the 20% mag pool buff from the CP system. Now thanks to buffs to Sorc passives, they've been restored and can once again efficiently hit 50k+ max mag, matching the power of old school MagSorcs (who never needed a burst heal). Pushing a powerful burst heal on an already buffed Ward was overkill, much like how Healthy Offering was overkill.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

You definitely take the gun in that case because it gives you the most versatility. You definitely also take the gun if it has a suppressor.

Hooray we made progress. So the "guns" in this PvP are Sorc's ranged versatility, and NB's stealth acting like a suppressor. The rest of the classes are melee brawler "knives" that lack these advantages, and open world PvP is exactly the sort of unfamiliar scenario where you want to be wielding a gun, not a knife.

So how do you balance this? You make the knives super strong to overcome the inherent disadvantage, and make the guns a fair amount weaker than guns normally would be (even shooters do this).

Well here's the thing though, in pvp the knife wielders basically have levels of ballistic armor/shields that allow them to absorb some shots while being able to close the distance.

So in a tactical situation do you take the knife and the ballistic armor/shield or the gun? You can shoot at them from a distance but you'll likely not be as effective unless you're willing to somewhat enter a range at which they can do damage.


As a sorc you can definitely pepper someone at range but if they know what they are doing sooner or later you have to get the stun in and so you'll be placed in a range where they can now do damage if they haven't already decided to close that gap themselves.

I know I've certainly been taken out more than a few times when I gas out temporarily and a melee opponent is relentlessly pursuing or otherwise on top of me. At that point when the knife stabs just keep coming the gun just doesn't feel as fun I'd say. Again though it really comes down to variations in the flow of combat so you can just as easily be a knife user with a shield dealing with a ranged opponent that knows how to place shots well or is ready to just pepper you all day until a buddy comes along or you make some serious mistake.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I know I've certainly been taken out more than a few times when I gas out temporarily and a melee opponent is relentlessly pursuing or otherwise on top of me.

Well if you're wielding a gun, and you miss every shot in the magazine, and you realize you have no idea how to reload, and then you let the knife wielder chase you down and stab you... that doesn't mean the knife is the equal of the gun. So a better scenario would be to imagine the gun wielder and knife wielder are both experts in what they do. All other factors equal, going into an unknown scenario, who wins: the expert gun wielder, or the expert knife wielder?

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot how much have you played specs other than MagSorc? I won't claim to be any sort of GOD SORC but switching between MagSorc and StamSorc isn't hard for me, at the end of the day you still need to know how to Streak and land Curse combos. I've also mained Arc which kinda feels halfway between MagSorc and StamSorc.

I feel like you're overlooking the fact that Ward was a compound buff. Recall how what really hurt MagSorcs back in the day was the removal of the 20% mag pool buff from the CP system. Now thanks to buffs to Sorc passives, they've been restored and can once again efficiently hit 50k+ max mag, matching the power of old school MagSorcs (who never needed a burst heal). Pushing a powerful burst heal on an already buffed Ward was overkill, much like how Healthy Offering was overkill.

Not sure what that has to do with my post, but yes, I have played almost all specs of sorc you can think of:
- Stamsorc - including 2h, DW and bow specs
- Tanksorc - both the proper tank builds and "healthsorc" DD
- Magsorc - including traditional, melee, raw damage builds
- Bashsorc - haven't played this spec as much, but I have played it
- Bombsorc - Both with the OG convergence and with other bomb builds
- Petsorc - yes even this horrible spec I have tried to make work in PvP with mixed results

I feel like you have completely overlooked the point of my post (it was a long post, but please try to read and understand it fully):
My post was never about defending ward having a burst heal (as I clearly state in my summary):

I'm not saying the burst heal was the best solution for ward/magsorc

but I was explaining the differences between mag and stamsorc (from someone who has played pretty much all forms of sorc) and the way those specs defend themselves and at least try to explain my thoughts on why that change (adding a burst heal to ward) was made by ZOS in the first place.

Joy_Division

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Bushido2513 what would you rather have on the battlefield: knife or gun

Depends on the engagement. A knife gives you a better chance at stealth kills and never runs out of ammo. A gun will reveal my position to the enemy with every use and possibly bring more enemies who will have an easier time finding me each time I use the gun. With a knife and tactics I an probably acquire one or multiple guns without revealing my location until I'm ready.

So as a sorc yes you can drop long range attacks however you can then become the target of multiple attackers yourself. Yes you have shields and a great escape utility but good attackers can work around that by using things like movement speed, high damage attacks from stealth, raw damage with cc/roots, etc.

A sorc is for me no more or less of a threat than any of the other stronger classes. I mean even if I just don't want to deal with a sorc I'll just roll dodge to get rid of a few pieces of the combo then los, heal up, etc. And yes now they can heal up like ever before but so can other classes to for me it's no worse or better than what is already commonly seen in the game. Maybe a little better but by no means a clearly identifiable case that can be proved in the way some are representing here.

Thats why you go with a team and have cover fire to defend when you take the first shot. 4 guns vs 4 knifes, well guess what happens haha

Depends on the encounter and the tactics of the opponents. If you have knives and your opponents are well armed then your first move is to not be anywhere where they can target you for a first shot.

The NB stays in stealth as they approach the one sorc that doesn't have shields up at the moment and goes for the kill. You don't say walk around out of stealth waiting for the sorc and his buddies to take aim. You also don't stay far from line of sight in case they do pull you out of stealth.

It's just basically chess, we all start out fairly evenly and the loser is going to be the first one to make a mistake. So we could do combat scenarios all day but generally speaking there are always going to be ways to work around a disadvantage and of course for the enemy to counter your workaround to your disadvantage.


This is my point about sorc and trying to measure the effect of the hardened ward change. Because of so many potential variances in combat it will come down to things that just can't be accurately measured by a simple set of CMX data or even observation by us as client side players of the game.

I've seen arguments like this all the time in military history.

It is akin to pointing out out how because there are cases when [insert new technology] does not perform as well or even worse than [insert existing technology], then [new technology] is not a superior alternative to [existing technology].

Of course knife Vs. gun is situational. The special forces soldier is going to want to use the knife to eliminate a guard in an infiltration scenario. But what army uses knives as their primary weapons system? None. And none ever have. Yeah, I liked Oberyn in GOT and thought it was a cool scene with the whole, "Longsword is a bad option in close quarters" line. But how often do we find ourselves in close quarters combat? There was a reason why rapiers, not knives, were a weapon of choice in duels and spears were the weapon of choice on basically every battlefield up until the 17th century when the historical conditions made it possibly for firearms to put a consistent wall of lead toward the enemy.

So to say that gun Vs. knife is situational is disingenuous as it is not acknowledging the crux of the issue: if you a gamer and get into a hundred fights, how many times will it take before you lose with the knife before you quit the game because the devs do not think the gun is a superior choice?

Sooooo your comment is dancing all over the place. I'm simply saying in some situations you want a knife and in others a gun. That's just simple tactics, it will depend on the engagement, your desired outcome, etc. I wasn't really talking about any specific conflict, number of enemies, terrain, etc etc. If you want to set a very specific scenario I'll be happy to tell you if I'm choosing the gun or the knife and you're very welcome to set a scenario in which the gun is the obvious choice and I'd happily agree. I think you're reading more into that response then was intended. Or perhaps I more so answered in a very open ended way and you took it where it made sense to you.

As is specific to ESO, other melee classes can definitely keep up with sorc at the moment. When you add in gvg dynamics it's even more possible to keep up with sorc. Harder to kill than before, obviously so. Are they ridiculously hard to kill at the moment, no more so than other classes depending on the player and build/setup.

No, my comment was quite singular: if the gun is going to be better in far more scenarios than the knife, an answer that claims it is situational is disingenuous.

The idea that well other classes can be just as survivable as a sorc depending on setup is missing the point many posters have made about Hardened Ward. Can I make a Templar or Necromancer that is basically impossible to kill for under 12 players? Yes, and they can do this better than a sorcerer. But they are just troll tanks. There is no versatility. They are overly narrow builds. They can't do anything else. That's not saying much.

It would be a better argument to state that some classes (DKs and Wardens) can match the overall offense + defense package that a sorcerer can achieve. (A highly skilled Nightblade can also do this, but that's more about a player exploiting unique skills. A mediocre nightblade can;t do this so I don't think the class is in the same tier.) But DKS and Wardens still have inconveniences (I won't call them weaknesses). If they want mobility, they have to build for it (and still won;t be as good as a sorcerer) and their better offensive skills require them to be closer.

A sorcerer can easily have a lot of survivability by employing one skill while also having the best mobility/escape skill in the game while also having a lot of firepower (which scales with that one skill) and does this at range. It's really easy to be strong at everything without much opportunity cost. It's an ideal package that does not have to worry about rock-paper-scissors. The devs have allowed this combination before (1.6 and years after when shield stacking was prevalent) so this is something we have seen before.

I'm not sure how GvG dynamics change the equation. ZOS's GvG meta has been incredibly stale for years and requires a specific application of synchronized PBAoE burst damage + CC to secure kills. So, yeah, Warden DPS is going to reign supreme in this specific scenario (like the knife in a stealth situation).

So if the gun is best in most scenarios how does that invalidate me saying that I'd still pick the knife in some scenarios?

Anyway it doesn't matter because a sorc facing a melee class isn't a gun to a knife fight scenario.at all. We're really talking ranged vs melee and while sorc is strong at range it's definitely not at all able to somehow completely invalidate melee players just by being what it is.

It doesn't invalidate the knife in certain scenarios. But to argue because in some corner cases the knife is better so nothing to see here is an exercise in sophistry. Gun beats knife in vast majority of cases. They are not balanced with respect to each other.

Just because something isn;t totally invalidated doesn;t mean it is desirably balanced. ESO is a strange game in which melee builds generally do not have much difficulty staying in close combat with ranged opponents. But range still opens a world of options and possibilities that just wouldnt be possible with 8 meter skills. Nobody would have ever complained about Jesus beam if it were an melee skill. In just about every other fantasy game ever devised the ranged, fast, and elusive "pew pew" classes do not have the defenses that a brawler has. The stamina sorcs are probably saying right now, hey don;t pigeonhole us. We get right in their face and brawl. Yes, but the moment things start going sour, they are streaking away. It's the best of all worlds.

My 2nd most time played is a sorcerer so I'm not here arguing just swing a nerf bat and be done with it. I know what it was like to play the class when they were just negate monkeys (pre 1.6) and after hybridization and ZOS's fascination with pets undercut them to mediocrity. They aren;t *that* far above the better classes in the game. There have been some interesting suggestions that are tweaks that would be worth trying.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

the way those specs defend themselves and at least try to explain my thoughts on why that change (adding a burst heal to ward) was made by ZOS in the first place.

My answer would be they wanted to make Sorc easier to play. That seems obvious no? But at least we seem to be in agreement that if you're at least decent at one spec of Sorc, you can easily learn the other specs of Sorc.

However, I reread your post, 1622 words, and you did not use the word Streak once. I am sorry, we have talked about context, I have difficulty taking any Sorc analysis seriously when you ignore the strongest skill they have outside the broken healy shield (no the purely defensive morph doesn't count), especially talking defensive rotations?

StamSorc wasn't meta during that era because it was a Sorc that could proc Surge more often or spam more roll dodges, it was meta because it was a proc vessel with Streak.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StamSorc wasn't meta during that era because it was a Sorc that could proc Surge more often or spam more roll dodges, it was meta because it was a proc vessel with Streak.

The problem with this argument is that if Streak truly is as overpowered as you (and the typical NB mains that always troll sorc threads) say it is (i.e. carrying stamsorc to being meta) then why wasn't a magsorc version of that stamsorc proc build just as strong? Magsorc clearly had access to that exact same abilities as stamsorc for that entire period of time and yet it was nowhere near being good, let alone being meta.

Why were we not seeing streaking mag procsorcs everywhere, using procs and streak to carry them into the meta just like it did for stamsorc?

I'll give you the answer right now, because I actually played a mag procsorc build during that patch and the answer is that it was not good, even with access to the exact same abilities that stamsorc had access to.
I spec'd into raw damage front bar with wretched back bar to carry the sustain, but it just wasn't good at all. It had no defense because at most I had 2 defensive rotations before I was out of stam, even with wretched sustain. I tried using dark deal instead of conversion, but at that point it was just better to run MDW + WoF and play as a generic stamina proc sorc.

The closest I got (and I spent hours upon hours and millions of gold testing every build you can think of) to magsorc being functional at all during U36 was running a tanky health/magsorc hybrid build with draugrkin front bar to carry the damage and the increased (38-40k) health combined with a back bar defensive set (can't remember if it was MB or not). It was mid at best and it had access to all of the same abilities that stamsorc had access to during that time.

Anyone who has played both magsorc and stamsorc in the past few years knows just how much stronger stamsorc is over magsorc for defense up until U41 and it's not "just streak" because if it truly was "just streak" then magsorc should have been meta over stamsorc during that entire time because it would have had more mag to use streak more, when that clearly wasn't the case and at certain points during that time magsorc was barely even a functioning spec.

I have a question for you actually, did you play MAGsorc at all during that U36 patch? and I mean actual high end PvP such as 1vX, dueling top players, etc. on an actual magsorc and not just some "hybrid" sorc claiming to be "magsorc" because it has curse slotted.

Turtle_Bot

FYI, I'm not saying streak is weak, far from it, it is a very, very strong ability, I am saying that magsorc has always had access to streak, just like stamsorc has, and yet magsorc was not even close to being meta like stamsorc was during that time, so clearly, despite streak being so strong, it was not the reason that stamsorc was in the meta at that time.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

so clearly, despite streak being so strong, it was not the reason that stamsorc was in the meta at that time.

StamSorc had better synergy with the tools available at the time, and compared to other proc vessels, Streak is what set it apart. Nobody was choosing Sorc over DK as a proc vessel for Surge or roll dodge, it was for Streak.

I did not play MagSorc during that era, and I also did not say Streak is overpowered (it's not, it's appropriately class defining). The reason I did not play MagSorc (aside from generally preferring melee brawling) was because they had long ago removed the stun from Crystal Frags, severely limiting its ability to combo offensively, on top of the available tools being unable to efficiently stack 50k+ max mag, and no synergistic proc sets to fill the gaps. So yeah, they needed help.

But they got that help with the buffs to class passives that restore their ability to stack 50k+ max mag efficiently, so now their shields are big again, and their skills can do damage without procs once again. They also indirectly got a huge buff with the status effect changes that have made Crushing Shock a lot more threatening, as well as the Ele Sus buffs, and the advent of sets like Rallying Cry, Roksa, Orders Wrath, Shattered Fate, etc... stat builds have caught up nicely.

And after all this we still don't have class major crit chance, at least the DW knife throw from Scribing can have it for StamSorc, where MagSorc probably doesn't mind continuing to run Inner Light, but deserves more options.

StaticWave

Here is a short clip demonstrating my Sorc’s elusiveness in a BG game against semi-sweaty players (at least the ones I was fighting in that clip).

I was on a 35k HP stamsorc with HP scaling shield. @IncultaWolf was on a NB and we jumped into their team to get a few quick kills. He cloaked away while I used my speed, Streak, and Ward to escape unscathed. I even got Incapped towards the end too, but no problemo. I was also doing this with 280 ping. You could see the delay when I cast abilities, especially Streak. With normal ping , surviving this encounter would have been cakewalk for me.

https://youtu.be/hdGzYGO2yss?si=rq9M32qTna_5bolJ

IncultaWolf

StaticWave wrote: »

Here is a short clip demonstrating my Sorc’s elusiveness in a BG game against semi-sweaty players (at least the ones I was fighting in that clip).

I was on a 35k HP stamsorc with HP scaling shield. @IncultaWolf was on a NB and we jumped into their team to get a few quick kills. He cloaked away while I used my speed, Streak, and Ward to escape unscathed. I even got Incapped towards the end too, but no problemo. I was also doing this with 280 ping. You could see the delay when I cast abilities, especially Streak. With normal ping , surviving this encounter would have been cakewalk for me.

https://youtu.be/hdGzYGO2yss?si=rq9M32qTna_5bolJ

I remember that game, was a really fun deathmatch.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I know I've certainly been taken out more than a few times when I gas out temporarily and a melee opponent is relentlessly pursuing or otherwise on top of me.

Well if you're wielding a gun, and you miss every shot in the magazine, and you realize you have no idea how to reload, and then you let the knife wielder chase you down and stab you... that doesn't mean the knife is the equal of the gun. So a better scenario would be to imagine the gun wielder and knife wielder are both experts in what they do. All other factors equal, going into an unknown scenario, who wins: the expert gun wielder, or the expert knife wielder?

Well it wouldn't be who wins but more who has a higher probability of wining because it's going to depend on the scenario. Also as with what happens in ESO and fights where the opponents are fairly equal they might cancel each other out and make no move if they don't have to.

Like for instance I'm not walking into a dark room with a gun against someone with a knife even though I have the gun because I don't tactically have that much of an advantage. So at that point I'd have to wait for one of us to make a mistake, get tired, etc. So in that case it's really not as much about the weapons because even though the gun has range it really becomes a matter of who's willing to wait longer.

But yes the gun in most scenarios has a higher probability of wining however if the opponent with the knife is now given body armor, a shield, perhaps a flash bang, then things change a lot. And yes I'm saying melee has enough in the toolkit to survive ranged damage from a sorc, close the gap, and create a counter.

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Bushido2513 what would you rather have on the battlefield: knife or gun

Depends on the engagement. A knife gives you a better chance at stealth kills and never runs out of ammo. A gun will reveal my position to the enemy with every use and possibly bring more enemies who will have an easier time finding me each time I use the gun. With a knife and tactics I an probably acquire one or multiple guns without revealing my location until I'm ready.

So as a sorc yes you can drop long range attacks however you can then become the target of multiple attackers yourself. Yes you have shields and a great escape utility but good attackers can work around that by using things like movement speed, high damage attacks from stealth, raw damage with cc/roots, etc.

A sorc is for me no more or less of a threat than any of the other stronger classes. I mean even if I just don't want to deal with a sorc I'll just roll dodge to get rid of a few pieces of the combo then los, heal up, etc. And yes now they can heal up like ever before but so can other classes to for me it's no worse or better than what is already commonly seen in the game. Maybe a little better but by no means a clearly identifiable case that can be proved in the way some are representing here.

Thats why you go with a team and have cover fire to defend when you take the first shot. 4 guns vs 4 knifes, well guess what happens haha

Depends on the encounter and the tactics of the opponents. If you have knives and your opponents are well armed then your first move is to not be anywhere where they can target you for a first shot.

The NB stays in stealth as they approach the one sorc that doesn't have shields up at the moment and goes for the kill. You don't say walk around out of stealth waiting for the sorc and his buddies to take aim. You also don't stay far from line of sight in case they do pull you out of stealth.

It's just basically chess, we all start out fairly evenly and the loser is going to be the first one to make a mistake. So we could do combat scenarios all day but generally speaking there are always going to be ways to work around a disadvantage and of course for the enemy to counter your workaround to your disadvantage.


This is my point about sorc and trying to measure the effect of the hardened ward change. Because of so many potential variances in combat it will come down to things that just can't be accurately measured by a simple set of CMX data or even observation by us as client side players of the game.

I've seen arguments like this all the time in military history.

It is akin to pointing out out how because there are cases when [insert new technology] does not perform as well or even worse than [insert existing technology], then [new technology] is not a superior alternative to [existing technology].

Of course knife Vs. gun is situational. The special forces soldier is going to want to use the knife to eliminate a guard in an infiltration scenario. But what army uses knives as their primary weapons system? None. And none ever have. Yeah, I liked Oberyn in GOT and thought it was a cool scene with the whole, "Longsword is a bad option in close quarters" line. But how often do we find ourselves in close quarters combat? There was a reason why rapiers, not knives, were a weapon of choice in duels and spears were the weapon of choice on basically every battlefield up until the 17th century when the historical conditions made it possibly for firearms to put a consistent wall of lead toward the enemy.

So to say that gun Vs. knife is situational is disingenuous as it is not acknowledging the crux of the issue: if you a gamer and get into a hundred fights, how many times will it take before you lose with the knife before you quit the game because the devs do not think the gun is a superior choice?

Sooooo your comment is dancing all over the place. I'm simply saying in some situations you want a knife and in others a gun. That's just simple tactics, it will depend on the engagement, your desired outcome, etc. I wasn't really talking about any specific conflict, number of enemies, terrain, etc etc. If you want to set a very specific scenario I'll be happy to tell you if I'm choosing the gun or the knife and you're very welcome to set a scenario in which the gun is the obvious choice and I'd happily agree. I think you're reading more into that response then was intended. Or perhaps I more so answered in a very open ended way and you took it where it made sense to you.

As is specific to ESO, other melee classes can definitely keep up with sorc at the moment. When you add in gvg dynamics it's even more possible to keep up with sorc. Harder to kill than before, obviously so. Are they ridiculously hard to kill at the moment, no more so than other classes depending on the player and build/setup.

No, my comment was quite singular: if the gun is going to be better in far more scenarios than the knife, an answer that claims it is situational is disingenuous.

The idea that well other classes can be just as survivable as a sorc depending on setup is missing the point many posters have made about Hardened Ward. Can I make a Templar or Necromancer that is basically impossible to kill for under 12 players? Yes, and they can do this better than a sorcerer. But they are just troll tanks. There is no versatility. They are overly narrow builds. They can't do anything else. That's not saying much.

It would be a better argument to state that some classes (DKs and Wardens) can match the overall offense + defense package that a sorcerer can achieve. (A highly skilled Nightblade can also do this, but that's more about a player exploiting unique skills. A mediocre nightblade can;t do this so I don't think the class is in the same tier.) But DKS and Wardens still have inconveniences (I won't call them weaknesses). If they want mobility, they have to build for it (and still won;t be as good as a sorcerer) and their better offensive skills require them to be closer.

A sorcerer can easily have a lot of survivability by employing one skill while also having the best mobility/escape skill in the game while also having a lot of firepower (which scales with that one skill) and does this at range. It's really easy to be strong at everything without much opportunity cost. It's an ideal package that does not have to worry about rock-paper-scissors. The devs have allowed this combination before (1.6 and years after when shield stacking was prevalent) so this is something we have seen before.

I'm not sure how GvG dynamics change the equation. ZOS's GvG meta has been incredibly stale for years and requires a specific application of synchronized PBAoE burst damage + CC to secure kills. So, yeah, Warden DPS is going to reign supreme in this specific scenario (like the knife in a stealth situation).

So if the gun is best in most scenarios how does that invalidate me saying that I'd still pick the knife in some scenarios?

Anyway it doesn't matter because a sorc facing a melee class isn't a gun to a knife fight scenario.at all. We're really talking ranged vs melee and while sorc is strong at range it's definitely not at all able to somehow completely invalidate melee players just by being what it is.

It doesn't invalidate the knife in certain scenarios. But to argue because in some corner cases the knife is better so nothing to see here is an exercise in sophistry. Gun beats knife in vast majority of cases. They are not balanced with respect to each other.

Just because something isn;t totally invalidated doesn;t mean it is desirably balanced. ESO is a strange game in which melee builds generally do not have much difficulty staying in close combat with ranged opponents. But range still opens a world of options and possibilities that just wouldnt be possible with 8 meter skills. Nobody would have ever complained about Jesus beam if it were an melee skill. In just about every other fantasy game ever devised the ranged, fast, and elusive "pew pew" classes do not have the defenses that a brawler has. The stamina sorcs are probably saying right now, hey don;t pigeonhole us. We get right in their face and brawl. Yes, but the moment things start going sour, they are streaking away. It's the best of all worlds.

My 2nd most time played is a sorcerer so I'm not here arguing just swing a nerf bat and be done with it. I know what it was like to play the class when they were just negate monkeys (pre 1.6) and after hybridization and ZOS's fascination with pets undercut them to mediocrity. They aren;t *that* far above the better classes in the game. There have been some interesting suggestions that are tweaks that would be worth trying.

Correct gun does beat knife in most cases so to make this a bit more appropriate for an eso argument I did have to revise and say that we're really talking about an opponent with a knife, body armor, a ballistic shield, and perhaps a bolo.

I know it's not for everyone but I personally was just never to bothered by someone being able to retreat at will. For me it's just part of the game design and I have just become ok with the idea that I can't really kill everyone in the game be it that they are able to get away or plain just better than me. I do realize though that some find the fight being reset to be a bit bothersome.

Alchimiste1

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

Vaqual

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

No no, you see, even though the math was already the same right when the notes hit the PTS, the really smart players already knew that the recent changes are just not going to cut it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651272/sorcerer-changes-good-ish-but-more-is-needed/p1

Stop the coherent arguments, stop doing the testing, stop calculating and stop provding ingame footage! It is a much needed change for the players who prefer to have an innate edge over others. Threads like this are really dangerous, as people might begin to see things for what they are.

Advocating for balance is after all not just about compromises and concessions to create a fair playground that everyone can enjoy, it is first and foremost about the subjective perception of everyones personal microenvironment in this particular online roleplay game.

I feel silly now, I should have been convinced much sooner. I hope I can open more eyes.

TechMaybeHic

I wonder what the famous spreadsheet they use says about this

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

It's actually not quite clear at all and that's the problem with this thread. People are trying to simplify a complicated thing and that usually leads to flawed evaluations.

I don't doubt that ward can feel like it's over performing but I've also experienced cases where it doesn't feel special at all.

This thread is just a bunch of players giving their individual takes on ward with some passing off their observations as conclusive evidence for one side or the other.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Just close this thread.
If you don't think ward is overperforming you are clearly bias

It's actually not quite clear at all and that's the problem with this thread. People are trying to simplify a complicated thing and that usually leads to flawed evaluations.

I don't doubt that ward can feel like it's over performing but I've also experienced cases where it doesn't feel special at all.

This thread is just a bunch of players giving their individual takes on ward with some passing off their observations as conclusive evidence for one side or the other.

It doesn't feel overperforming. It is overperforming based on CMX data. I can show multiple screenshots of CMX data from Cyrodiil, BG, and dueling and even if the screenshots show Ward + its burst heal doing more than 30-40% of my total healing, you will still not be convinced lol.