Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

This is why I said it’s difficult to discuss with people who don’t have experience with CMX data.

A magsorc right now can tank up to 8k DPS. Please understand that the builds required to pull off 8k DPS are only achievable on these specs:

1) Proc DK
2) Relequen bowsorc
3) Relequen Warden

These are some of the most cancerous builds you can think of. If you try to duel any of these classes without Ward on a regular Cyrodiil/BG set up, you will 9 times of out 10 die within the first 30-50 seconds. Magsorc in their REGULAR build can face tank that kind of damage. Slotting shield breaker isn’t going to make you do more damage than slotting Relequen/some other proc.

The only counter for magsorc this patch is if you 100-0 them within the first few seconds. THAT’S IT. If you cannot kill them before they spam Ward, they will recover to full. That’s just how it is for every single 1v1 encounter, whether that be dueling, BG, or Cyrodiil where you have to fight a magsorc 1 on 1. In group play, it’s not as much of an issue, but that’s an entire different discussion.

1v1 occasions happen more than you know. I’ve done a lot of 1v1s in Cyrodiil when 1vXing, and 1v1s in BG when I’m fighting a lone magsorc or the last magsorc of a team. Ward is allowing people to stalemate more than they should. Are you going to dismiss those experiences because you don’t run into 1v1s as often, even in a non-duel setting?

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

This is why I said it’s difficult to discuss with people who don’t have experience with CMX data.

A magsorc right now can tank up to 8k DPS. Please understand that the builds required to pull off 8k DPS are only achievable on these specs:

1) Proc DK
2) Relequen bowsorc
3) Relequen Warden

These are some of the most cancerous builds you can think of. If you try to duel any of these classes without Ward on a regular Cyrodiil/BG set up, you will 9 times of out 10 die within the first 30-50 seconds. Magsorc in their REGULAR build can face tank that kind of damage. Slotting shield breaker isn’t going to make you do more damage than slotting Relequen/some other proc.

The only counter for magsorc this patch is if you 100-0 them within the first few seconds. THAT’S IT. If you cannot kill them before they spam Ward, they will recover to full. That’s just how it is for every single 1v1 encounter, whether that be dueling, BG, or Cyrodiil where you have to fight a magsorc 1 on 1. In group play, it’s not as much of an issue, but that’s an entire different discussion.

1v1 occasions happen more than you know. I’ve done a lot of 1v1s in Cyrodiil when 1vXing, and 1v1s in BG when I’m fighting a lone magsorc or the last magsorc of a team. Ward is allowing people to stalemate more than they should. Are you going to dismiss those experiences because you don’t run into 1v1s as often, even in a non-duel setting?

“ A magsorc right now can tank up to 8k DPS. Please understand that the builds required to pull off 8k DPS are only achievable on these specs:

1) Proc DK
2) Relequen bowsorc
3) Relequen Warden

These are some of the most cancerous builds you can think of.”

Because mag sorcs are competitive with other known, powerful builds you think they need to be nuked? That makes no sense to me.

They are now competitive without being overpowered. Look at some of the leaderboards and you’ll see the initial feared influx of OP sorcs never materialized.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Again, “sour grapes” is a figure of speech and wasn’t even directed at you. It address non-sorcs who have class envy that they didn’t get a desired change, which isn’t even you. You took it personally for no reason.

You, however, name call and try to bully people who disagree with you. Repeatedly. That they are “mid” that they have no clue what they are talking about or that if they don’t show you how good they are in-game their opinions are worthless.

You try to demand evidence. I can just repost my previous explanations why demanding evidence for a negative (ie, something isn’t happening) is impossible. It’s like saying prove Bigfoot isn’t real! Its an argument fallacy you learn to identify in philosophy classes.

The change is vital because it gives a burst heal within the class that cannot be easily interrupted or negated by killing a matriarch. Something we have never had in my time playing. It opens up playing styles that weren’t previously possible and allows players to diversify their builds and engagement styles.

controlled setting and BG setting. The weight is now on you to defend your position that Ward isn’t overperforming.

Controlled settings are not how this game is played. Even so, duels are very very limited portion of the game. There are ways to counter this skill (ie, shield breaker set) and will be even more after scribing comes out.

I post a screen grab where sorcs are high death count in BG… you say it’s a skill issue and they are just bad players. No evidence will satisfy you and my in-game experience holds no weight in your view. So, on we go.

1) Shield breaker doesn’t counter magsorc lol. Here’s what I run:



here’s shield breaker:



At full power shield breaker is only 2% more damage, and against non-shield users it’s 4% less dmg. It also doesn’t give 4k stam every 10s either. Are you proposing people waste an entire 5 piece set to gain 2% more dmg vs 1 spec? That’s absurd.

2) You can post a video of when Ward fails to defend against multiple opponents. That would have made your stance more convincing lol.

You haven’t posted a single piece of evidence, keep that in mind. I’ve posted plenty of clips where Ward allows players to tank a lot of damage. You need to do the same and post clips of people failing to tank a lot of damage. Then we can gave an actual discussion.

“Shield breaker doesn’t counter magsorc lol.”

See, that is a difference in opinion that you like to tack on “lol” to be condescending. As if that makes your point any more convincing.

It certainly can and is good for more mobile players. Especially if shields are as meta as you imply they are. Not every encounter is a duel and if you have a sorc running and you don’t hit that pool, you’ll consistently have 16% increased damage for them if they are crutching on shield as you think they would be.

1) You’re proposing players waste an entire 5 piece to counter 1 skill. That’s as absurd as saying I should slot Sentry to counter Cloak.

2) Shield is definitely meta but not everyone runs a shield. Your magsorc can be in a completely normal setup that is good vs everything else but I have to sacrifice a whole 5 piece to be good at 1 spec and lose dmg vs other specs? It’s the same reason why ppl complain about Cloak. I have to use detect potions, slot Sentry, or waste 1 slot for a skill that’s useless for everything else but detecting NB, while a a NB just wears a regular build lol. Cmon man

Shield breaker is objectively not good as a counter, especially when you compare it to ET. Shield breaker only has 1 line of max stam and 1 line of weapon dmg, whereas ET has 2 lines of max stam and 1 line of weapon dmg. ET also restores 4k+ stam and 2k HP under battle spirit every 10s. That 1% dmg difference is negligible. If it was old shield breaker then I would agree 100%

RomanRex

Currently, there are 12 sorcs on the overall leaderboard in my campaign. There are 35 nightblades. Three times as many.

Anecdotally, if your concerns were valid we would see a huge bump in sorc numbers. While some of the isolated examples you provide seem convincing at first glance, they don’t pan out in actual game play.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the problem most ppl don’t see, or rather don’t want to admit, is Ward currently performs both as a preemptive and a reactive defensive mechanic. There’s no drawback

We tried explaining this earlier ITT and got the response "it doesn't matter because shields expire" ...honestly don't know how to bridge the gap from there. Doesn't help that there's a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect going on ITT.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is why I said it’s difficult to discuss with people who don’t have experience with CMX data.

A magsorc right now can tank up to 8k DPS. Please understand that the builds required to pull off 8k DPS are only achievable on these specs:

1) Proc DK
2) Relequen bowsorc
3) Relequen Warden

These are some of the most cancerous builds you can think of. If you try to duel any of these classes without Ward on a regular Cyrodiil/BG set up, you will 9 times of out 10 die within the first 30-50 seconds. Magsorc in their REGULAR build can face tank that kind of damage. Slotting shield breaker isn’t going to make you do more damage than slotting Relequen/some other proc.

The only counter for magsorc this patch is if you 100-0 them within the first few seconds. THAT’S IT. If you cannot kill them before they spam Ward, they will recover to full. That’s just how it is for every single 1v1 encounter, whether that be dueling, BG, or Cyrodiil where you have to fight a magsorc 1 on 1. In group play, it’s not as much of an issue, but that’s an entire different discussion.

1v1 occasions happen more than you know. I’ve done a lot of 1v1s in Cyrodiil when 1vXing, and 1v1s in BG when I’m fighting a lone magsorc or the last magsorc of a team. Ward is allowing people to stalemate more than they should. Are you going to dismiss those experiences because you don’t run into 1v1s as often, even in a non-duel setting?

“ A magsorc right now can tank up to 8k DPS. Please understand that the builds required to pull off 8k DPS are only achievable on these specs:

1) Proc DK
2) Relequen bowsorc
3) Relequen Warden

These are some of the most cancerous builds you can think of.”

Because mag sorcs are competitive with other known, powerful builds you think they need to be nuked? That makes no sense to me.

They are now competitive without being overpowered. Look at some of the leaderboards and you’ll see the initial feared influx of OP sorcs never materialized.

Those builds are 100% proc builds, with zero stat sets. Magsorc is competing with purely stat sets. I don’t think a class in a pure stat build has ever beaten a class in a pure proc build in the history of this game. If that was the case we wouldn’t see complaints about procs dominating PvP.

So yes, the fact that magsorc can fight on par with a proc user while being in a stat build speaks volume. Those classes are juiced to the gills with procs to keep up with a stat magsorc. What do you think will happen when that magsorc starts juicing up? I’ve already demonstrated that a magsorc can achieve 45-49k max mag with just DDF. It’s entirely possible for a magsorc to stack 3 proc sets, stay at around 44-45k max mag for a 12k ward, and still be relatively hard to kill while dishing out huge damage.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

Currently, there are 12 sorcs on the overall leaderboard in my campaign. There are 35 nightblades. Three times as many.

Anecdotally, if your concerns were valid we would see a huge bump in sorc numbers. While some of the isolated examples you provide seem convincing at first glance, they don’t pan out in actual game play.

NB is just as broken and there have been many threads addressing that. I also actively participate in those threads.

Can you tell the amount of other classes on the leader board?

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

It’s entirely possible for a magsorc to stack 3 proc sets, stay at around 44-45k max mag for a 12k ward, and still be relatively hard to kill while dishing out huge damage.

Can't wait to proc Oblivion's Foe off Wield Soul next patch!

RomanRex

The lower ranks move around, but these are my recounts just now.

NB: 35
Warden: 15
Templar: 15
Sorc: 13
DK: 9
Necro: 6
Arc: 7

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

Thank you for your understanding.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

NB: 35

How many of these NBs sit on the roof light attacking for 8 hours a day? Enough to obfuscate the data.

RomanRex

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

NB: 35

How many of these NBs sit on the roof light attacking for 8 hours a day? Enough to obfuscate the data.

If ranged mag sorcs are OP now, they could be doing the same thing. It’s not happening though.

DaisyRay

StaticWave wrote: »

I agree with you that Ward has been used before the update, and the change to Ward makes the super talented sorcs really, really difficult to kill. I also want Sorc to get the defensive buffs they need, but here is where we disagree:

The change fundamentally removed the only necessary weakness of Wards, which is the ability to instantly recover from execute phase

That weakness is extremely important because it prevents sorcs from having a 2-in-1 defensive ability. It’s akin to putting a 7-8k shield on Coag/Healthy Offering/HoTD. Can you imagine how broken it would be if those burst heals also have a small shield attached?

This is what I’ve been trying to explain to some people here. You cannot have a shield AND a burst heal mechanic on 1 skill. You can however, have a HoT attached to a shield, which I think is more balanced and the agreed solution to make Ward more balanced.

If you want to test how overperforming Hardened Ward is compared to the old version, it’s really simple. Throw on Dampen Ward instead. You will see a significant reduction in survivability without the burst heal. You will have to kite a lot more, and play more careful because you can no longer get out of execute range. You will have to use Ward more, which means less offensive up time and more magicka drain.

One simple buff increased Sorc potency significantly. And btw, that’s not even going into the fact that buffed Ward allows you to stack an extra 8% max mag. If your build had 40k max mag last patch, then this patch you are gaining 18%, or 7.2k extra max mag from stacking that extra 8% with the 10% passive. Not only did Sorc get a defensive/offensive buff with the extra max mag, but they also got a hugee defensive buff with new Ward too.

I think I understand your point now and I too partially agree with you.

I understand that ward is the only skill (that I know of) that both shields and heals at the same time. I can agree that it's not the same in that way when compared to other class skills. It's not very fair that we are the only ones to get two skills in one. However...

I do not think this makes it more overpowered than the others that I previously mentioned. The sorc heal isn't that big and the shield doesn't protect that much. Plus, I'm pretty sure the skill can be stopped with a stun or off balance. I'm not too sure on that one, but I believe so. So my point is that all the other classes still outperform sorcs when it comes to their defensive skills.

The dk heal doesn't need a shield because it already gives almost all their health back. Dks can get out execute the same way, wardens too, because of their strong one skill healing. I plan on doing a video of this soon so I can share a visual showing of my opinion. I'll try the dampen ward in my video too so I can see for myself and maybe change my mind.

I agree about the extra mag added is a bit much. If I had to change it, I would suggest they take the heal off ward, but increase our normal heals and make it where people can't stop block it. This is the first defensive buff sorcs has gotten in a while, it's not perfect, but I don't think it's extremely overpowered either. I'll bring my updated opinion after I do the video.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

The change fundamentally removed the only necessary weakness of Wards, which is the ability to instantly recover from execute phase

That weakness is extremely important because it prevents sorcs from having a 2-in-1 defensive ability. It’s akin to putting a 7-8k shield on Coag/Healthy Offering/HoTD. Can you imagine how broken it would be if those burst heals also have a small shield attached?

This is what I’ve been trying to explain to some people here. You cannot have a shield AND a burst heal mechanic on 1 skill. You can however, have a HoT attached to a shield, which I think is more balanced and the agreed solution to make Ward more balanced.

One simple buff increased Sorc potency significantly. And btw, that’s not even going into the fact that buffed Ward allows you to stack an extra 8% max mag. If your build had 40k max mag last patch, then this patch you are gaining 18%, or 7.2k extra max mag from stacking that extra 8% with the 10% passive. Not only did Sorc get a defensive/offensive buff with the extra max mag, but they also got a hugee defensive buff with new Ward too.

This is inaccurate. There are many other weaknesses of Ward.

No Block Mitigation
Cannot critically strike (the bulk of the ability)
Scales off of Magicka (least efficient offensive stat)
Is Temporary so expires (bulk of the ability)

No Block Mitigation:

70% percent of the "health" this ability offers does not allow block mitigation, one of the strongest mitigation types in the game.

Cannot critically strike:

70% of the "health" of this ability is stagnant. We all understand the strengths of Crit damage/healing. An extra commitment of 50% crit healing will be the heal increase by about 2k (~4k base in PvP with 55k~ magicka). This extra 50% crit healing would significant increase abilities like HotD, Healthy Offering, Coagulating, Polar wind etc

Scales off Magicka (and health)

Line for line, spell damage, critical chance, critical damage, and penetration all significantly out perform Magicka in terms of damage (and healing for most classes) unless you're running Rallying cry or dedicate a monster set for major vitality (this may change next update with scribing) you are not getting away with anything less than a 50k magicka ward. I can attest greatly too this. I've been running 55k+ magicka setups for the past several years and I never run Rallying cry. My ward has always sat around 15k. You try and run 40-45k magicka on a Sorc and you will get BODIED. You're talking a sub 12k ward and a 3k heal.

Which leads me to the next point, you're going to lose 2 additional slots to properly run ward. Now I'm not saying Bound Aegis isn't a great ability because it is. It offers passive defense and offensive. BUT less offensive than an additional DoT would. Magelight is pretty mediocre but crit chance is too good not to have so mine as well have it to further buff ward.

Is temporary

70% of the ability expires. This takes additional upkeep compared to permanent health.


With all that said, stacking a lot of magicka or running rallying cry is overpowered defensively.

But you can't balance an ability around one Item Set (Rallying Cry). And forcing us to stack Magicka is boring and limiting. And I will NEVER stack health cuz that's for players who need handicaps.

But Arcanist have a burst heal (with mechanics) on their Ward so it's not totally out of line for it to exist.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

But Arcanist have a burst heal (with mechanics) on their Ward so it's not totally out of line for it to exist.

Needs to be charged up with Crux then the heal is single use, while Sorc's healy shield is unconditional and fully spammable. Absolutely massive difference there. Then you think Sorc shields "expiring" is an issue? Try playing Arc where you only get a Sorc size shield for the initial one second. Make Sorc Ward a clone of Arc Ward and we'd be good.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But Arcanist have a burst heal (with mechanics) on their Ward so it's not totally out of line for it to exist.

Needs to be charged up with Crux then the heal is single use, while Sorc's healy shield is unconditional and fully spammable. Absolutely massive difference there. Then you think Sorc shields "expiring" is an issue? Try playing Arc where you only get a Sorc size shield for the initial one second. Make Sorc Ward a clone of Arc Ward and we'd be good.

@xylena_lazarow

You mean this ability right here? Just slapped on the that setup I saw from a Arcanist build post. That's in cyrodiil.

Seems like a larger shield for that first second.
Oh and it retaliates and does damage.
Oh and it can scale to a 16k Tooltip heal with 3 Cruxes.
Oh and it generates 4 ultimate every 8 second.
Oh and slotting it gives 129 of each recovery.

What did ward do before this update?

Oh yeah shield for like 15k when you Min max for magicka. Yeah definitely balanced when you compare the two. /Sarcasm

Id take this Shield all day give it to me as a morph, preferably let it scale off magicka because the rest of my class kit doesn't scale with health.

Come on man let's at least pretend to be unbiased geez.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

Come on man let's at least pretend to be unbiased geez.

Have you actually played Arc? Are you running a DD build or a 45k hp brick? Initial Impervious is under 12k on my Draugrkin DD Arc, Sorc does not face nearly the same tradeoff between shields and damage, max mag increases your damage more than max hp last I checked. Either way if you're struggling to pilot a 6sec 16k shield on a mobile ranged nuke, idk what you're going to do with a 1sec 17k shield when you need to be in melee range running proc sets just to do mid tier damage.

ilawana

Since the patch dropped, I have noticed that sorcs are tankier, but I don't think they are harder to kill than anything else in the game outside of nb gankers. I suppose it is possible that there are exceptions but, in average gameplay, I haven't seen it. The only thing I'm noticing is sorcs can be tanky without sacrificing damage. That being said, so can dk, brawlblade, warden, and arc. Seems to me like sorc isn't overpowered as much as it is following the poor game design trends.

Personally, I don't like the heal. It's a nice buff but it makes the sorc feel more meh. I'd rather sorc get a shield buff that is unique as opposed to making it a copy paste runeward, or a damage shield version of coag. I liked the fact that ward had it's weakness of not being able to help you recover from execute unlike a traditional burst heal. Though, I didn't like how weak the shield was compared to everything else in the game. I think they should remove the heal entirely, buff the base strength (or remove the health cap), and add a resource return effect onto it. Restores x amount of mag, stam, or health based on whichever is lower. Or something like that. Maybe that's just me though. I just strongly dislike the tank meta and would gladly go back to the days where you had to sacrifice your damage to gain survivability and vice versa.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Come on man let's at least pretend to be unbiased geez.

Have you actually played Arc? Are you running a DD build or a 45k hp brick? Initial Impervious is under 12k on my Draugrkin DD Arc, Sorc does not face nearly the same tradeoff between shields and damage, max mag increases your damage more than max hp last I checked. Either way if you're struggling to pilot a 6sec 16k shield on a mobile ranged nuke, idk what you're going to do with a 1sec 17k shield when you need to be in melee range running proc sets just to do mid tier damage.

This was one sustain set one damage set and death dealer fete and a trainee piece. Was around 40k health since I went half in on health for attribute points. Most Arcanist I see have about 40k health so that's makes sense.

First second of shield application is super critical in combat. Generally lose 4-5k+ in that first second depending if it's a 1v1 or 1vX scenario.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was one sustain set one damage set and death dealer fete and a trainee piece. Was around 40k health since I went half in on health for attribute points. Most Arcanist I see have about 40k health so that's makes sense.

Most Arcs do no damage, neither would this build, optimistically it's supposed to be group utility not DD.

Jsmalls wrote: »

First second of shield application is super critical in combat. Generally lose 4-5k+ in that first second depending if it's a 1v1 or 1vX scenario.

So you understand this but not why preloading is a big deal? That 6 seconds is a long time for a 16k shield, if your shield is expiring, you obviously aren't being threatened, so who cares just cast a new one? Meanwhile Arc can barely preload shields at all with it shrinking to under 6k on a DD after the initial one second, and they have to be in melee range.

Seriously, play DD Arc for a bit, if you can outperform your DD Sorc I'll eat this post.

StaticWave

@Jsmalls

Jsmalls wrote: »

No Block Mitigation:

70% percent of the "health" this ability offers does not allow block mitigation, one of the strongest mitigation types in the game.

I disagree. Block mitigation does exist for the heal portion, and I can demonstrate right below:

Shield block:

https://youtu.be/Xu2UbYhovAI

Burst heal block:

https://youtu.be/EiLbEmmmvTY

You can literally see shield blocking is better than burst heal blocking. I'm at 37k HP in both setups, so the shield is using max HP modifier instead. Look how fast I got to full HP compared to spamming Vibrant Shroud (which has a 9.8k tooltip on front bar).

Your argument would only be true for old Ward. Current Ward is treated as both a shield and a burst heal.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Cannot critically strike:

70% of the "health" of this ability is stagnant. We all understand the strengths of Crit damage/healing. An extra commitment of 50% crit healing will be the heal increase by about 2k (~4k base in PvP with 55k~ magicka). This extra 50% crit healing would significant increase abilities like HotD, Healthy Offering, Coagulating, Polar wind etc

Agreed. That's a fundamental design of shield, since it's applied over your HP whereas a burst heal doesn't do anything if you're full health.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Scales off Magicka (and health)

Line for line, spell damage, critical chance, critical damage, and penetration all significantly out perform Magicka in terms of damage (and healing for most classes) unless you're running Rallying cry or dedicate a monster set for major vitality (this may change next update with scribing) you are not getting away with anything less than a 50k magicka ward. I can attest greatly too this. I've been running 55k+ magicka setups for the past several years and I never run Rallying cry. My ward has always sat around 15k. You try and run 40-45k magicka on a Sorc and you will get BODIED. You're talking a sub 12k ward and a 3k heal.

5 light armor takes care of crit chance and penetration. Slotting Vigor + Ward at a lower max mag is just as good as higher max mag, but it requires 1 extra GCD and that's fine. But I get your point.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Which leads me to the next point, you're going to lose 2 additional slots to properly run ward. Now I'm not saying Bound Aegis isn't a great ability because it is. It offers passive defense and offensive. BUT less offensive than an additional DoT would. Magelight is pretty mediocre but crit chance is too good not to have so mine as well have it to further buff ward.

2 additional slots that give you 15% extra max mag, Major Savagery, Minor Protection, & Minor Resolve, which buff your offense and defense? Let's not compare that to a DoT.

If you drop Bound Aegis you have to slot Vigor, and dropping Inner Light for that extra DoT isn't going to make up for the fact that you just lost 15% max mag (7k-10k max mag depending on your current mag) that contributes to better burst and better defense.

I haven't even talked about the 2 GCD you just wasted to cast the DoT and Vigor, which could have been used to cast 2 spammables.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Is temporary

70% of the ability expires. This takes additional upkeep compared to permanent health.

I disagree. When compared to Budding Seeds' mechanic (6s delay until you receive a burst heal), Ward is better as the shield lasts for the entire duration. Keep in mind, I'm only talking about the delayed heal mechanic, not whether Budding Seeds is better as a skill.

Jsmalls wrote: »

With all that said, stacking a lot of magicka or running rallying cry is overpowered defensively.

But you can't balance an ability around one Item Set (Rallying Cry). And forcing us to stack Magicka is boring and limiting. And I will NEVER stack health cuz that's for players who need handicaps.

Agreed, but Rallying Cry makes everyone tanky, so your argument isn't being fair either.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

Shield block:

https://youtu.be/Xu2UbYhovAI

Burst heal block:

https://youtu.be/EiLbEmmmvTY

@Jsmalls

The burst heal video has an extra DoT applied to me so that may cause some skewed analysis. I went ahead and make another comparison. This time against a DoT DK and I'm at 35k HP:

Shield block:

https://youtu.be/03wO_0kbcJ8

Burst heal block:

https://youtu.be/SXica2MxN9g

Similar healing capabilities vs a DoT DK, even at 35k HP. I reckon at 45-50k mag equivalent the shield's going to be more potent. With that being said, Vibrant Shroud is not at its best form right now, so I will have to make another test next patch.

I do want to point out that shield having no block mitigation is an intended mechanic to prevent the skill from overperforming. As demonstrated in the video, blocking only reduces the damage I take by 60%. The remaining amount is still applied against my actual HP. A shield, despite having no block mitigation, will prevent my actual HP from dropping until the shield expires. Blocking will also not mitigate any DoT, but a shield does.

When you have a big shield (14-15k), that weakness diminishes because a 15k shield can absorb damage from 3 DoTs and a spammable (assuming each DoT ticks for 2k-2.5k and a spammable does 6.5k-8k dmg). Should any damage go through your shield, there is also the burst heal underneath to prevent your actual HP from dropping.

Block casting a burst heal will not mitigate 3 DoT ticks, but will reduce the spammable damage to 2.5k-3k, and will heal through those DoTs. You can't rely on it alone though. A regular burst heal on a full damage setup may crit for 14k, but non crit values fall within the 6.5-7k range. You're not going to mitigate those 3 DoTs + spammable if you don't supplement the burst heal with 2-3 HoTs.

This is where I have a problem with the current Sorc. By using 1 active skill, you're able to replicate the same potency as 2 HoTs + block casting a burst heal. Sure you can argue that you have to waste 2 slots for Inner Light + Bound Aegis, which I've provided a counterargument, but if you look at the GCD opportunity cost, spamming 3 Wards gets you to full HP faster than casting 2 HoTs + a burst heal while block casting. You could also argue that those HoTs last longer, which I agree with. That's one of the main reasons why I think the burst heal should be turned into a HoT instead, as it provides a more long-term defense than the current Ward, without making the Sorc too tanky at that immediate moment.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was one sustain set one damage set and death dealer fete and a trainee piece. Was around 40k health since I went half in on health for attribute points. Most Arcanist I see have about 40k health so that's makes sense.

Most Arcs do no damage, neither would this build, optimistically it's supposed to be group utility not DD.

Jsmalls wrote: »

First second of shield application is super critical in combat. Generally lose 4-5k+ in that first second depending if it's a 1v1 or 1vX scenario.

So you understand this but not why preloading is a big deal? That 6 seconds is a long time for a 16k shield, if your shield is expiring, you obviously aren't being threatened, so who cares just cast a new one? Meanwhile Arc can barely preload shields at all with it shrinking to under 6k on a DD after the initial one second, and they have to be in melee range.

Seriously, play DD Arc for a bit, if you can outperform your DD Sorc I'll eat this post.

Agreed. I don't have a problem fighting a full proc Arc. They can't do anything to kill me and I get them low more often than they get me low. Arc is a few tiers below Sorc rn unfortunately.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

Currently, there are 12 sorcs on the overall leaderboard in my campaign. There are 35 nightblades. Three times as many.

Anecdotally, if your concerns were valid we would see a huge bump in sorc numbers. While some of the isolated examples you provide seem convincing at first glance, they don’t pan out in actual game play.

Here's the overall ranking for Grey Host Alliance War leaderboard:

Here are the class counts:

NB: 25
Sorc: 23
Templar: 17
Warden: 16
DK: 6
Arc: 7
Necro: 6

NB and Sorc make up almost 50% of the leaderboard. These 2 classes are also currently two of the best classes in PvP. Any coincidence?

Zabagad

RomanRex wrote: »

The lower ranks move around, but these are my recounts just now.

NB: 35
Warden: 15
Templar: 15
Sorc: 13
DK: 9
Necro: 6
Arc: 7

So then you found the best day to post these numbers and you play blackreach NA.
Or are you on PS/Xbox?

Because I monitor these data since more then 1,5 years on all 4 CP campaigns and black/NA is a bit of an outlier atm.
If you play black/NA then at the end of your last campaign for example there were 19 sorcs vs 25 NBs.
And because one campaign for one month is not giving any reasonable data, I calculate the mean of these 4 campaigns for every campaign. And not even one campaign *4 is enough to get a real good and stable impression - so I accumulate them over 3 campaigns (sometimes unfortunately only 2 because of events) to get the most meaningful data.

You can clearly see the increase of sorcs since U35 and especially since U41:

Edit: Ups - that was an older version - here is the latest version:


So don't rely on that snapshot you see currently in your campaign.

(Btw: magSorc main here - and I started my "work" with U35 just to check, if I was right that sorc was in a bad shape and on a low tier. That's a big reason for me to still believe in my numbers, because I trusted them at that time too
And because I do it everytime exactly the same way I don't have the chance to to anything biased in favour of my class....)

edit: lol while typing (yes I'm slow in english ) static posted his snapshot - so the same I said to Roman goes for you (applies to you? not sure how to say it...)
These two examples underline my thesis - don't take snapshots of one campaign to proof something - it can change easy next campaign.
(Except that statics 50% NB and Sorcs is ofc right and will not change significant)

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This was one sustain set one damage set and death dealer fete and a trainee piece. Was around 40k health since I went half in on health for attribute points. Most Arcanist I see have about 40k health so that's makes sense.

Most Arcs do no damage, neither would this build, optimistically it's supposed to be group utility not DD.

Jsmalls wrote: »

First second of shield application is super critical in combat. Generally lose 4-5k+ in that first second depending if it's a 1v1 or 1vX scenario.

So you understand this but not why preloading is a big deal? That 6 seconds is a long time for a 16k shield, if your shield is expiring, you obviously aren't being threatened, so who cares just cast a new one? Meanwhile Arc can barely preload shields at all with it shrinking to under 6k on a DD after the initial one second, and they have to be in melee range.

Seriously, play DD Arc for a bit, if you can outperform your DD Sorc I'll eat this post.

Most magsorcs also do no damage. It's kinda ironic You now use argument about most arcs when You were criticising using arguments about most magsorcs not that long ago here

it screams a little with double standards.

Comparing 1 skill of arc to 1 skill of sorc without context is kinda silly. It's obvious impervious runeward cannot be equall in strenght and the way it works to hardened ward considering how much other features arc have in all of his abilities and passives.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Comparing 1 skill of arc to 1 skill of sorc without context is kinda silly. It's obvious impervious runeward cannot be equall in strenght and the way it works to hardened ward considering how much other features arc have in all of his abilities and passives.

Have you played DD Arc? Can you tell me what it does better than DD Sorc in PvP? I'll wait...

At this point I have to assume anyone putting Arc and Sorc in the same tier has no idea how to play either of them.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Comparing 1 skill of arc to 1 skill of sorc without context is kinda silly. It's obvious impervious runeward cannot be equall in strenght and the way it works to hardened ward considering how much other features arc have in all of his abilities and passives.

Have you played DD Arc? Can you tell me what it does better than DD Sorc in PvP? I'll wait...

At this point I have to assume anyone putting Arc and Sorc in the same tier has no idea how to play either of them.

You missed the point entirely. Not the first time tbh.

Also I asked You not that long ago to stop making arguments based purely on assumpptions that fit Your agenda yet You continue to do so. Be better.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You missed the point entirely. Not the first time tbh. Also I asked You not that long ago to stop making arguments based purely on assumpptions that fit Your agenda yet You continue to do so. Be better.

This is an unqualified statement. I have played both Arc and Sorc extensively and provided CMX data from both classes for context. I have broken down the shield mechanics of Hardened vs Impervious over and over. You have asked for context yet provided none of your own, just some vague sentiment that Arc is somehow on the same level as Sorc (it's not), and you continue to ignore the context of Sorc being fully ranged. Arc is not ranged, medium range at best.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Most magsorcs also do no damage

Bad Sorcs tagging you with Curse and Crushing Shock from 41m away still need to be accounted for on the battlefield, while bad Arcs do literally nothing because they need to get up close then land clumsy skills like tentacle (and bad Arcs are still trying to use the beam which you just laugh and step slightly to the side). Even decent Arc players are building the class incorrectly, those YT Arc builds like the one Jsmalls linked don't run nearly enough damage.

RomanRex

ilawana wrote: »

Seems to me like sorc isn't overpowered as much as it is following the poor game design trends.

Same. It’s more competitive now with other classes which have accumulated design issues over time. Mag sorcs just finally got a little love after many years of hardly any and this is the reaction.

Rather than a balanced and nuanced approach to fixing broader problematic design trends, the thread goes mega hard on clawing back something that actually makes non-pet mag sorcs competitive without being overpowered

There aren’t insane threads where a couple folks posts hundreds and hundreds of times like this. Where people get toxic/condescending/demeaning/sarcastic about other classes (other than perhaps gank-blades) the way this thread does almost daily.

People may comment sporadically in those threads, but this one has gotten off the rails so, so many times. The only thread this insane is about nightblade perma-glow weapons. Not even mechs.