Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

recovery from somewhere so you'll lose stats

can trade 3k max mag for Roksa monster set to solve sustain (it just works)

can run structured or whatever to passively proc Rallying if you don't want to think (yes we have bar space now)

can replace Alfiq with stronger DD sets trading max mag for higher dmg (still huge shields and heals)

at no point do you need to compromise on having a broken op Ward, you admitted yourself that a 13k shield + 4k heal + Rallying is busted (the original build I posted has a 16k shield + 11k heal + Rallying), these minor tradeoffs do NOT stop you from having back bar Rallying, massive ranged damage output, mobility, sustain, on top of the busted shield

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

recovery from somewhere so you'll lose stats

can trade 3k max mag for Roksa monster set to solve sustain (it just works)

can run structured or whatever to passively proc Rallying if you don't want to think (yes we have bar space now)

can replace Alfiq with stronger DD sets trading max mag for higher dmg (still huge shields and heals)

at no point do you need to compromise on having a broken op Ward, you admitted yourself that a 13k shield + 4k heal + Rallying is busted (the original build I posted has a 16k shield + 11k heal + Rallying), these minor tradeoffs do NOT stop you from having back bar Rallying, massive ranged damage output, mobility, sustain, on top of the busted shield

I’ve already demonstrated you can get almost 50k max mag in clever/rally build, which is a stam build 🤣

What’s probably worth noting is I’m taking 9k-10k Frags and 8-9k Curses WHILE HAVING Rallying Cry active. It’s almost mandatory that I wear that set if I don’t want to explode within the first 3s from Curse + Frag.

If Rallying Cry gets nerfed, magsorc’s damage 100% needs to be adjusted, especially when we consider how tanky it is for a mobile ranged class.

StaticWave

@Jsmalls @xylena_lazarow Also it’s worth noting that Wield Soul with 1k mag/stam return and Major Breach will free up 1 extra slot for magsorc using Elesus, and also provide Overload-level sustain. That will allow magsorcs to potentially run lower recoveries.

Or the magsorc can keep Elesus and have Major Vitality on Wield Soul, turning a 14k ward into almost 16k, and a 16k ward into almost 18k.

Priyasekarssk

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

recovery from somewhere so you'll lose stats

can trade 3k max mag for Roksa monster set to solve sustain (it just works)

can run structured or whatever to passively proc Rallying if you don't want to think (yes we have bar space now)

can replace Alfiq with stronger DD sets trading max mag for higher dmg (still huge shields and heals)

at no point do you need to compromise on having a broken op Ward, you admitted yourself that a 13k shield + 4k heal + Rallying is busted (the original build I posted has a 16k shield + 11k heal + Rallying), these minor tradeoffs do NOT stop you from having back bar Rallying, massive ranged damage output, mobility, sustain, on top of the busted shield

[snip] This is a much needed change for mage spec. Even with this it’s hard to find mage sorcerer in cyrodil leader boards. Shield changes is here to stay and no way near to overpowered by any means. All I see nighblades, other classes in top leaderboards in cyrodil PvP. [snip] Till now I never seen a mage sorc won a 1v1 tournaments even to respected level even with shield changes.

[edited for baiting]

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Here is a standard magsorc build in NO CP:




Here's my max mag and max stam with 10% mag/stam passive:




Almost 50k mag with 3.7k crit resist, 4.9k spell dmg, 1.7k mag regen and 1.6k stam regen, with 29k HP

Here's a build with higher max mag that's still in No CP:





Still think that's sacrificing too much? Lemme throw on 5 medium for best armor passives:




How about 5 heavy for maximum mitigation?



27k resist front bar with 49.6k mag lol

Too slow? Let's slot Hurricane and drop Chudan for something else!



You're always going to sacrifice something to make a balanced build, but Sorc is getting it super easy with that Ward buff allowing you to slot Bound Aegis and 10% max mag passive lol

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

xylena_lazarow

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

[edited to remove quote]

Priyasekarssk

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

How about posting leaderboards or even a 1v1 tournament ranking?
Why not even 1 mage sorc in top PvP leaderboards? Note I have a mage sorc I only use it for 50 transmute crystals. Last time I saw a mage sorc emperor is 6 years back. I barely see any one in top 10. I have 10 characters on different alliances on all classes. I don’t care which is meta or not. I can adapt to any class or any alliance. Without burst heal mage sorc spec is not viable to play. At present scenario it can only compete. This entire discussion is about some personal with no substance. Not bringing anything good to game balance. This game is destroyed because of uncredited people calling themselves pros and suggest illogical balanace changes rather than true balance issues . No one is going to spam shields all day nor streak. No way a sorc can survive 1v2 on open grounds provided player skill is more or less equal by spamming shields alone. Shield is expensive compared to other burst heals with Lower tool tip. There are so many hard things to counter shield. Even a set called shield breaker . It’s not a balance issue.

[edited to remove quote]

Vaqual

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

How about posting leaderboards or even a 1v1 tournament ranking?
Why not even 1 mage sorc in top PvP leaderboards? Note I have a mage sorc I only use it for 50 transmute crystals. Last time I saw a mage sorc emperor is 6 years back. I barely see any one in top 10. I have 10 characters on different alliances on all classes. I don’t care which is meta or not. I can adapt to any class or any alliance. Without burst mage spec is not viable to play. At present scenario it can only compete. This entire discussion is about some personal. Not bringing anything good to game balance. This game is destroyed because of uncredited people calling themselves pros and suggest illogical balanace changes rather than true balance issues . No one is going to spam shields all day nor streak. No way a sorc can survive 1v2 on open grounds provided player skill is more or less equal by spamming shields alone. Shield is expensive compared to other burst heals with Lower tool tip. There are so many hard things to counter shield. Even a set called shield breaker . It’s not a balance issue.

Being emperor has nothing to do with PvP.

[edited to remove quote]

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

Even if there would be only 1 sorc playing in ravenwatch still "no CP setup" name is usually reserved for that campaign and no CP IC not for BGs. For BGs people usually use "BG setup" term.

And as for Your argument about "sorcs who lack skill to survive without spamming a burst heal" it's pretty disingenuine comment. Mediocre state of magsorc ptrior to U41 was pretty common knowledge so blaming other players failures (including top players who also were struggling often on magsorc) purely on their supposed lack of skill is silly to say atleast.

[edited to remove quote]

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls @xylena_lazarow Also it’s worth noting that Wield Soul with 1k mag/stam return and Major Breach will free up 1 extra slot for magsorc using Elesus, and also provide Overload-level sustain. That will allow magsorcs to potentially run lower recoveries.

Or the magsorc can keep Elesus and have Major Vitality on Wield Soul, turning a 14k ward into almost 16k, and a 16k ward into almost 18k.

No yeah I totally agree Wield Soul is going to be significant change. I'm personally targeting major breach with the Sorcerer class mastery (which really deserves some attention you're adding ~20-25% damage to your spammable, and adding an additional Element to proc a status effect). Defile and Major Vitality will probably be better for group play though.

But there is already a spammable with major breach in Crushing weapon, but this will be the first time for a magicka spammable.

DUTCH_REAPER

Hey what is that program you’re using to make those builds on the website? Ty in advance.

StaticWave

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

How about posting leaderboards or even a 1v1 tournament ranking?
Why not even 1 mage sorc in top PvP leaderboards? Note I have a mage sorc I only use it for 50 transmute crystals. Last time I saw a mage sorc emperor is 6 years back. I barely see any one in top 10. I have 10 characters on different alliances on all classes. I don’t care which is meta or not. I can adapt to any class or any alliance. Without burst heal mage sorc spec is not viable to play. At present scenario it can only compete. This entire discussion is about some personal with no substance. Not bringing anything good to game balance. This game is destroyed because of uncredited people calling themselves pros and suggest illogical balanace changes rather than true balance issues . No one is going to spam shields all day nor streak. No way a sorc can survive 1v2 on open grounds provided player skill is more or less equal by spamming shields alone. Shield is expensive compared to other burst heals with Lower tool tip. There are so many hard things to counter shield. Even a set called shield breaker . It’s not a balance issue.

MetallicMonk won a 1v1 tournament on magsorc 5-6 months ago, fyi

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

[snip]

You mean the Sorcs who lack the skill to survive without spamming burst heals? I've survived years without them.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

BG setup =/= no CP setup. Be specific if You want to promote Your argument.

Apologies to the 6 people who still play Ravenwatch but sorry, it's not relevant to any of these discussions.

How about posting leaderboards or even a 1v1 tournament ranking?
Why not even 1 mage sorc in top PvP leaderboards? Note I have a mage sorc I only use it for 50 transmute crystals. Last time I saw a mage sorc emperor is 6 years back. I barely see any one in top 10. I have 10 characters on different alliances on all classes. I don’t care which is meta or not. I can adapt to any class or any alliance. Without burst heal mage sorc spec is not viable to play. At present scenario it can only compete. This entire discussion is about some personal with no substance. Not bringing anything good to game balance. This game is destroyed because of uncredited people calling themselves pros and suggest illogical balanace changes rather than true balance issues . No one is going to spam shields all day nor streak. No way a sorc can survive 1v2 on open grounds provided player skill is more or less equal by spamming shields alone. Shield is expensive compared to other burst heals with Lower tool tip. There are so many hard things to counter shield. Even a set called shield breaker . It’s not a balance issue.

How about this. I’ll hop on my magsorc and you will use shieldbreaker or whatever tools you think counters Sorc. We do 3 duels. Sounds good?

[edited to remove quote]

HowlKimchi

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Hey what is that program you’re using to make those builds on the website? Ty in advance.

It's the UESP ESO build editor.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

DaisyRay

Lol are people still mad about this? After testing it out more, I change my opinion that it does add a lot to the class. Though I think if you're going to be angry at this then you need to be angry at every other class. All the classes have a skill or two that helps them survive a little more.. I could name a lot of them. This isn't even getting into the sets. Get over it. If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

StaticWave

DaisyRay wrote: »

you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

It makes them wayyy harder to kill and prolongs the fight more than necessary.

StaticWave

DaisyRay wrote: »

Though I think if you're going to be angry at this then you need to be angry at every other class. All the classes have a skill or two that helps them survive a little more.. I could name a lot of them. This isn't even getting into the sets.

Yes, if you noticed there have been plenty of forum posts addressing those issues. Ward is simply one of those threads. Ppl can dislike it but the fact of the matter is Ward currently overperforms. A simple game session will demonstrate easily

HowlKimchi

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

Such a bad take that IDK if I should take it seriously.

StaticWave

HowlKimchi wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

Such a bad take that IDK if I should take it seriously.

It's the same take ppl make when you try to address something overperforming. It's so easy to dismantle that take by simply logging in game and dueling someone with and without Ward lol.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

stalemating fights,
It isn’t

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

stalemating fights,
It isn’t

DaisyRay wrote: »

If you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it

Have them swap to Dampen Ward to mimic pre-buffed Hardened Ward and see how much U41 Hardened Ward carries 🤣 As simple of a test as it can get lolol

StaticWave

Look at that many Sorcs lmao

Firstmep

My 2 cents.
Class envy makes balancing this game a nightmare.
Class envy is what pushed the devs to think the most mobile, best ranged damage class somehow also needed the to be as tanky as a slow @#$% templar or dk.

DaisyRay

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

It makes them wayyy harder to kill and prolongs the fight more than necessary.

But people have been using shield even before the update. Maybe I'm just uninformed on what all changed, because at first I didn't even notice there was a change until I saw it giving me some health back. Furthermore, it doesn't make me overpowered. Maybe it makes people who were already super talented at the game more powerful, which changes the topic. But using a sorc shield doesn't stop me from dying if my attacker stays on me, it just gives me a reprieve to try and defend myself.

To me it's not as overpowered as the dk, templar, and warden heal where they can press one button and instantly go to full health. Why is everyone so mad that sorcs are getting a little buff? It doesn't feel as extreme as you all are making it out to be. Though as I said, maybe it does more than I realize.

Finally, there could not be a way to actually test this because you would need to test it on the old skill. Even before the update sorcs used the ward shield, so testing it on a sorc with no shields doesn't seem fair. I don't know any sorcs who didn't use the skill even before it was mildly buffed.

StaticWave

DaisyRay wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

you can't kill a sorc because they have hardened ward, then you likely wouldn't be able to kill them without it. I was using ward before the change and I'll continue using it.

It makes them wayyy harder to kill and prolongs the fight more than necessary.

But people have been using shield even before the update. Maybe I'm just uninformed on what all changed, because at first I didn't even notice there was a change until I saw it giving me some health back. Furthermore, it doesn't make me overpowered. Maybe it makes people who were already super talented at the game more powerful, which changes the topic. But using a sorc shield doesn't stop me from dying if my attacker stays on me, it just gives me a reprieve to try and defend myself.

To me it's not as overpowered as the dk, templar, and warden heal where they can press one button and instantly go to full health. Why is everyone so mad that sorcs are getting a little buff? It doesn't feel as extreme as you all are making it out to be. Though as I said, maybe it does more than I realize.

Finally, there could not be a way to actually test this because you would need to test it on the old skill. Even before the update sorcs used the ward shield, so testing it on a sorc with no shields doesn't seem fair. I don't know any sorcs who didn't use the skill even before it was mildly buffed.

@DaisyRay

I agree with you that Ward has been used before the update, and the change to Ward makes the super talented sorcs really, really difficult to kill. I also want Sorc to get the defensive buffs they need, but here is where we disagree:

The change fundamentally removed the only necessary weakness of Wards, which is the ability to instantly recover from execute phase

That weakness is extremely important because it prevents sorcs from having a 2-in-1 defensive ability. It’s akin to putting a 7-8k shield on Coag/Healthy Offering/HoTD. Can you imagine how broken it would be if those burst heals also have a small shield attached?

This is what I’ve been trying to explain to some people here. You cannot have a shield AND a burst heal mechanic on 1 skill. You can however, have a HoT attached to a shield, which I think is more balanced and the agreed solution to make Ward more balanced.

If you want to test how overperforming Hardened Ward is compared to the old version, it’s really simple. Throw on Dampen Ward instead. You will see a significant reduction in survivability without the burst heal. You will have to kite a lot more, and play more careful because you can no longer get out of execute range. You will have to use Ward more, which means less offensive up time and more magicka drain.

One simple buff increased Sorc potency significantly. And btw, that’s not even going into the fact that buffed Ward allows you to stack an extra 8% max mag. If your build had 40k max mag last patch, then this patch you are gaining 18%, or 7.2k extra max mag from stacking that extra 8% with the 10% passive. Not only did Sorc get a defensive/offensive buff with the extra max mag, but they also got a hugee defensive buff with new Ward too.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

@xylena_lazarow

Yea I’m trying not to lol.

I think the problem most ppl don’t see, or rather don’t want to admit, is Ward currently performs both as a preemptive and a reactive defensive mechanic. There’s no drawback. You don’t have to pre cast Ward like the good magsorcs usually do. You can take 80% dmg to your HP and still recover to 100% with a couple casts. You can also preemptively use it to never drop below 100% HP.

Normal burst heals don’t have this mechanism at all. If a player casts Coag at full HP, the overheal amount doesn’t do anything. I think for these sorcs to see the problem, ZOS should give all burst heals a 7-8k shield in addition to the burst heal amount. You will quickly see backlash lol

[edited to remove quote]

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Again, “sour grapes” is a figure of speech and wasn’t even directed at you. It address non-sorcs who have class envy that they didn’t get a desired change, which isn’t even you. You took it personally for no reason.

You, however, name call and try to bully people who disagree with you. Repeatedly. That they are “mid” that they have no clue what they are talking about or that if they don’t show you how good they are in-game their opinions are worthless.

You try to demand evidence. I can just repost my previous explanations why demanding evidence for a negative (ie, something isn’t happening) is impossible. It’s like saying prove Bigfoot isn’t real! Its an argument fallacy you learn to identify in philosophy classes.

The change is vital because it gives a burst heal within the class that cannot be easily interrupted or negated by killing a matriarch. Something we have never had in my time playing. It opens up playing styles that weren’t previously possible and allows players to diversify their builds and engagement styles.

controlled setting and BG setting. The weight is now on you to defend your position that Ward isn’t overperforming.

Controlled settings are not how this game is played. Even so, duels are very very limited portion of the game. There are ways to counter this skill (ie, shield breaker set) and will be even more after scribing comes out.

I post a screen grab where sorcs are high death count in BG… you say it’s a skill issue and they are just bad players. No evidence will satisfy you and my in-game experience holds no weight in your view. So, on we go.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Again, “sour grapes” is a figure of speech and wasn’t even directed at you. It address non-sorcs who have class envy that they didn’t get a desired change, which isn’t even you. You took it personally for no reason.

You, however, name call and try to bully people who disagree with you. Repeatedly. That they are “mid” that they have no clue what they are talking about or that if they don’t show you how good they are in-game their opinions are worthless.

You try to demand evidence. I can just repost my previous explanations why demanding evidence for a negative (ie, something isn’t happening) is impossible. It’s like saying prove Bigfoot isn’t real! Its an argument fallacy you learn to identify in philosophy classes.

The change is vital because it gives a burst heal within the class that cannot be easily interrupted or negated by killing a matriarch. Something we have never had in my time playing. It opens up playing styles that weren’t previously possible and allows players to diversify their builds and engagement styles.

controlled setting and BG setting. The weight is now on you to defend your position that Ward isn’t overperforming.

Controlled settings are not how this game is played. Even so, duels are very very limited portion of the game. There are ways to counter this skill (ie, shield breaker set) and will be even more after scribing comes out.

I post a screen grab where sorcs are high death count in BG… you say it’s a skill issue and they are just bad players. No evidence will satisfy you and my in-game experience holds no weight in your view. So, on we go.

1) Shield breaker doesn’t counter magsorc lol. Here’s what I run:



here’s shield breaker:



At full power shield breaker is only 2% more damage, and against non-shield users it’s 4% less dmg. It also doesn’t give 4k stam every 10s either. Are you proposing people waste an entire 5 piece set to gain 2% more dmg vs 1 spec? That’s absurd.

2) You can post a video of when Ward fails to defend against multiple opponents. That would have made your stance more convincing lol.

You haven’t posted a single piece of evidence, keep that in mind. I’ve posted plenty of clips where Ward allows players to tank a lot of damage. You need to do the same and post clips of people failing to tank a lot of damage. Then we can gave an actual discussion.

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Again, “sour grapes” is a figure of speech and wasn’t even directed at you. It address non-sorcs who have class envy that they didn’t get a desired change, which isn’t even you. You took it personally for no reason.

You, however, name call and try to bully people who disagree with you. Repeatedly. That they are “mid” that they have no clue what they are talking about or that if they don’t show you how good they are in-game their opinions are worthless.

You try to demand evidence. I can just repost my previous explanations why demanding evidence for a negative (ie, something isn’t happening) is impossible. It’s like saying prove Bigfoot isn’t real! Its an argument fallacy you learn to identify in philosophy classes.

The change is vital because it gives a burst heal within the class that cannot be easily interrupted or negated by killing a matriarch. Something we have never had in my time playing. It opens up playing styles that weren’t previously possible and allows players to diversify their builds and engagement styles.

controlled setting and BG setting. The weight is now on you to defend your position that Ward isn’t overperforming.

Controlled settings are not how this game is played. Even so, duels are very very limited portion of the game. There are ways to counter this skill (ie, shield breaker set) and will be even more after scribing comes out.

I post a screen grab where sorcs are high death count in BG… you say it’s a skill issue and they are just bad players. No evidence will satisfy you and my in-game experience holds no weight in your view. So, on we go.

1) Shield breaker doesn’t counter magsorc lol. Here’s what I run:



here’s shield breaker:



At full power shield breaker is only 2% more damage, and against non-shield users it’s 4% less dmg. It also doesn’t give 4k stam every 10s either. Are you proposing people waste an entire 5 piece set to gain 2% more dmg vs 1 spec? That’s absurd.

2) You can post a video of when Ward fails to defend against multiple opponents. That would have made your stance more convincing lol.

You haven’t posted a single piece of evidence, keep that in mind. I’ve posted plenty of clips where Ward allows players to tank a lot of damage. You need to do the same and post clips of people failing to tank a lot of damage. Then we can gave an actual discussion.

“Shield breaker doesn’t counter magsorc lol.”

See, that is a difference in opinion that you like to tack on “lol” to be condescending. As if that makes your point any more convincing.

It certainly can and is good for more mobile players. Especially if shields are as meta as you imply they are. Not every encounter is a duel and if you have a sorc running and you don’t hit that pool, you’ll consistently have 16% increased damage for them if they are crutching on shield as you think they would be.