Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

You didn’t specify how recent. You just said I never played magsorc competitively, which is false. I did
So that’s what you could call me lol. I’m definitely not a magsorc main, but I’ve played it competitively enough to know the class.

But you don't think 6 years of significant changes that brought them from the highest tier PvP class to the near bottom isn't a significant experience gap for the class?

All I'm saying is you missed a lot about the the issues of the class during these times that only someone who has stuck with it would understand.

Just like I'll never understand StamSorc like you will because you've been through the garbage years.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

So to say you didn't play MagSorc during their "hardships" of the past 6 years lines up exactly with my statement of you guys just aren't Mag Sorc mains....

Right why am I talking about GCD compression with players who cannot conceive of surviving without burst heal spam. Real MagSorcs (TM) give zero guar turds about burst heals, just want the stun on frags back. Also:

62k max mag, stats unbuffed except DDF, would be closer to 64k if I was a mag race

Oops you got me it's only 16k

Combined that's an absurd near 28k effective healing TT in a single button press on mobile ranged nuke DD build.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Edit: another trait fix coming

Jsmalls wrote: »

So to say you didn't play MagSorc during their "hardships" of the past 6 years lines up exactly with my statement of you guys just aren't Mag Sorc mains....

Right why am I talking about GCD compression with players who cannot conceive of surviving without burst heal spam. Real MagSorcs (TM) give zero guar turds about burst heals, just want the stun on frags back. Also:

62k max mag, stats unbuffed except DDF, would be closer to 64k if I was a mag race

Oops you got me it's only 16k

Yeah I know it's 16k, cuz I'm a MagSorc main. I've messed around with these values and pretty much know them by heart...

And I guess it hasn't been made clear, I've mained this class type through everything. I was as competitive as the class could be during throughout the worst patches.

But Hardened Ward wasn't balanced before this update, not with the current damage and healing potential. You can argue that because Sorcs have mobility they should have poor defenses but mobility is a lot easier to get than it used to, and if an opponent wants to keep up with me they can and will.

Nightblades and Wardens are very much mobile classes and they have amazing defense capabilities currently. So why is it that MagSorc needs to be held to this criteria when the other two aren't?

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You didn’t specify how recent. You just said I never played magsorc competitively, which is false. I did
So that’s what you could call me lol. I’m definitely not a magsorc main, but I’ve played it competitively enough to know the class.

But you don't think 6 years of significant changes that brought them from the highest tier PvP class to the near bottom isn't a significant experience gap for the class?

All I'm saying is you missed a lot about the the issues of the class during these times that only someone who has stuck with it would understand.

Just like I'll never understand StamSorc like you will because you've been through the garbage years.

I occasionally dabbed in to try the class, and also fought it many times. I am aware of the difficulties magsorc had. I even advocated for changes to magsorc in my previous threads. I’m sure @Turtle_Bot can acknowledge when I made several comments asking for buffs that would benefit stamsorc and magsorc in the past.

Why does it matter how recent I play though? I know how to play magsorc. I have also tried other variations (HP shield Sorc without Vigor, shieldless sorc with Vigor), and could still compete, like this screenshot taken from a build video I made in 2022:




The fact is the class is currently broken and that’s all that matters. It’s not like I’m on a magsorc hate train lol. I’m simply pointing out what’s too strong and what needs buffing.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I guess it hasn't been made clear, I've mained this class type through everything. I was as competitive as the class could be during throughout the worst patches... Nightblades and Wardens are very much mobile classes and they have amazing defense capabilities currently. So why is it that MagSorc needs to be held to this criteria when the other two aren't?

Myself and Static have both said that both Polar Wind and Healthy Offering are problems in other threads.

If you were as competitive on Sorc as you say, you would not need or care about burst healing. Sorc's other buffs are sufficient to revitalize the class without the insane heal on Ward. Getting the stun on frags or major crit on something would've been better, but other than Ward being broken, the rest of Sorc is in a good PvP place these days.

Given a choice, I'd much prefer Ward have major crit chance than a burst heal for either magsorc or stamsorc.

StaticWave

What @Turtle_Bot suggested for shield was pretty dope. Basically he said Hardened Ward could have interrupt immunity, which allows you to freely cast Dark Deal/Conversion for the heal. It’s a neat idea and I would prefer that over a heal tbh.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

What @Turtle_Bot suggested for shield was pretty dope. Basically he said Hardened Ward could have interrupt immunity, which allows you to freely cast Dark Deal/Conversion for the heal. It’s a neat idea and I would prefer that over a heal tbh.

I would be afraid of the interaction with other cast time abilities with interruption immunity. For example you would be able to turn crystal fragments into a spammable that has a 33% chance of firing the next attack with a 66% damage increase.

I can tell you right now I occasionally hard cast frags while in overload because if I proc a frag with the hard cast they land almost identically. I would like the hard cast frags still to remain punishable personally.

Then to add onto that the new scribing destro ability as well.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I guess it hasn't been made clear, I've mained this class type through everything. I was as competitive as the class could be during throughout the worst patches... Nightblades and Wardens are very much mobile classes and they have amazing defense capabilities currently. So why is it that MagSorc needs to be held to this criteria when the other two aren't?

Myself and Static have both said that both Polar Wind and Healthy Offering are problems in other threads.

If you were as competitive on Sorc as you say, you would not need or care about burst healing. Sorc's other buffs are sufficient to revitalize the class without the insane heal on Ward. Getting the stun on frags or major crit on something would've been better, but other than Ward being broken, the rest of Sorc is in a good PvP place these days.

Given a choice, I'd much prefer Ward have major crit chance than a burst heal for either magsorc or stamsorc.

Frag deserved the loss of the CC, for balance a ability should not do high damage and stun (outside of ultimates). This is the path forward ZoS has chosen and I definitely agree with that balance point.

Major Prophecy/Savagery would be greatly appreciated, would LOVE to drop magelight.

RomanRex

Jsmalls wrote: »

So to say you didn't play MagSorc during their "hardships" of the past 6 years lines up exactly with my statement of you guys just aren't Mag Sorc mains....

I am glad this is brought up. The people here who won’t let this die aren’t mag sorc mains. I have been for 4-5 years now. PvP and PvE.

These changes were so overdue and needed. They make mag sorcs competitive without being overpowered. They are no longer easy kills to pick off in a variety of settings. They went from a joke in PvP to competitive and non-mag sorcs are still complaining about it.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

Frag deserved the loss of the CC

No True Magsorc...

Jsmalls wrote: »

Major Prophecy/Savagery would be greatly appreciated, would LOVE to drop magelight.

My Sorc friend found he could scribe 10sec major crit chance onto the DW knife throw. Dunno what else it can go on.

StaticWave

N-th time RomanRex shows up and claims ward is not overpowered, and still doesn’t prove it with any evidence 🤣.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

N-th time RomanRex shows up and claims ward is not overpowered, and still doesn’t prove it with any evidence 🤣.

Gonna post this again so they can look at it and say Ward is not overpowered.

RomanRex

For the n-th time, you cannot offer evidence to prove a negative. It’s like asking someone to prove that God DOESN’T exist. The onus is on those claiming there IS something not that there ISN’T.

The evidence you’ve provided is not convincing and incredibly situational. Continues to be to this day.

If I were to post screen grabs of mag sorcs getting destroyed or losing duels, you would just claim that they suck. Your demand for evidence is a lose-lose situation for anyone who opposes you.

I’d love to never post in this thread again, but until those who obsessively continue to complain about this important change stop, I’m not going to stop either.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

N-th time RomanRex shows up and claims ward is not overpowered, and still doesn’t prove it with any evidence 🤣.

Gonna post this again so they can look at it and say Ward is not overpowered.

For reference.

This was my post from February 1st, the 2ND post on @StaticWave 's PTS post.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Would second this or change the heal to scale from weapon/spell damage so that stacking magicka isn't too strong (this would also give Sorcs the ability to stack spell damage instead of magicka trading off shield size for a larger heal).

Stacking magicka with the 10% buff from the passive makes this entirely too strong for PvP.

With bastion CP star my ward is tooltipping for 16.5k and my heal can get as high as 9k crits. 25k effective health for a spammable is too strong.

Maybe even consider changing it to a DOT heal versus a burst heal.

That being said stacking 60k magicka is very boring and doesn't offer much damage or versatility.

I've played around with other setups that have much better risk/reward.

A 60k magicka setup is like an improved mediocre tank.

Bushido2513

RomanRex wrote: »

For the n-th time, you cannot offer evidence to prove a negative. It’s like asking someone to prove that God DOESN’T exist. The onus is on those claiming there IS something not that there ISN’T.

The evidence you’ve provided is not convincing and incredibly situational. Continues to be to this day.

If I were to post screen grabs of mag sorcs getting destroyed or losing duels, you would just claim that they suck. Your demand for evidence is a lose-lose situation for anyone who opposes you.

I’d love to never post in this thread again, but until those who obsessively continue to complain about this important change stop, I’m not going to stop either.

This entire thread is kind of just for laughs at this point. This clearly isn't getting changed any time soon and it's very unlikely a dev could or would read this and make any sense of it.

The only conclusive information is in regards to 1v1 which doesn't matter because the game isn't balanced around that.

Static and others try to make arguments in a vacuum when the game doesn't really work that way when we talk all balance.

At this point I think this thread is just something for people to do

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've played around with other setups that have much better risk/reward.

Like?

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What @Turtle_Bot suggested for shield was pretty dope. Basically he said Hardened Ward could have interrupt immunity, which allows you to freely cast Dark Deal/Conversion for the heal. It’s a neat idea and I would prefer that over a heal tbh.

I would be afraid of the interaction with other cast time abilities with interruption immunity. For example you would be able to turn crystal fragments into a spammable that has a 33% chance of firing the next attack with a 66% damage increase.

I can tell you right now I occasionally hard cast frags while in overload because if I proc a frag with the hard cast they land almost identically. I would like the hard cast frags still to remain punishable personally.

Then to add onto that the new scribing destro ability as well.

to be fair, I made this suggestion for interrupt immunity back, long before we had any idea what the scribing abilities were or what they did.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Major Prophecy/Savagery would be greatly appreciated, would LOVE to drop magelight.

My Sorc friend found he could scribe 10sec major crit chance onto the DW knife throw. Dunno what else it can go on.

It can be added to Vault (bow skill) for 20s iirc and I think a few other skills iirc. Can't remember off the top of my head if wield soul could get it, but that ability gets breach or defile already which removes the need for ele sus freeing up a bar slot there.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You didn’t specify how recent. You just said I never played magsorc competitively, which is false. I did
So that’s what you could call me lol. I’m definitely not a magsorc main, but I’ve played it competitively enough to know the class.

But you don't think 6 years of significant changes that brought them from the highest tier PvP class to the near bottom isn't a significant experience gap for the class?

All I'm saying is you missed a lot about the the issues of the class during these times that only someone who has stuck with it would understand.

Just like I'll never understand StamSorc like you will because you've been through the garbage years.

I occasionally dabbed in to try the class, and also fought it many times. I am aware of the difficulties magsorc had. I even advocated for changes to magsorc in my previous threads. I’m sure @Turtle_Bot can acknowledge when I made several comments asking for buffs that would benefit stamsorc and magsorc in the past.
[/spoiler]
Why does it matter how recent I play though? I know how to play magsorc. I have also tried other variations (HP shield Sorc without Vigor, shieldless sorc with Vigor), and could still compete, like this screenshot taken from a build video I made in 2022:




The fact is the class is currently broken and that’s all that matters. It’s not like I’m on a magsorc hate train lol. I’m simply pointing out what’s too strong and what needs buffing. [/spoiler]

The changes you advocated for were mostly (not all) for stam/hybrid sorcs, but yes you did advocate for buffs for magsorc as well.

I'm curious about when in 2022 the video that screenshot is from was made? Early or late 2022 (pre or post U35)?
I ask because the following:

• I played a hybrid melee/ranged shieldless stat magsorc (played a lot like stamsorc, but using magicka) back in U33 (early 2022) and sorc was in a good spot then (thanks to resto staff carrying defense allowing me to stack raw damage to hit some crazy frags procs), but the nerf to resto in U34 killed that build.
• U34 also exposed a lot of sorcs (at the time) designed weaknesses (low defense/lack of bar space) despite the class being strong with original oakensoul. Original oakensoul allowed every other class to spec almost entirely into mobility without losing any of their defense/offense stats or bar space which heavily exposed magsorc specifically due to it's lack of speed compared to stamsorc.
• I also played a pure magsorc/early form of healthsorc in U35 and 36 (late 2022) and it was in an atrocious spot then (think current necro, but worse), even using ele sus + crushing shock + draugrkin front bar with mara's balm back bar (2 very strong/broken sets at the time) and it was not good at all, barely playable and anything beyond that specific combination of sets was completely unplayable for magsorc specifically.
• I dabbled with stamsorc for a bit during those patches too and stamsorc with MDW front, WoF body and mara's balm or wretched back was much better overall and it felt like I could at least try other things with the stam spec that I had no business even considering on the mag spec.
• Up until U40 I mostly stuck with stamsorc over magsorc, although after U37/38 (the increase to ward size) I did attempt to rebuild my magsorc multiple times. Only with U40 did I switch back to my main of purely being magsorc instead of playing either stamsorc, healthsorc or hybridsorc while dabbling with magsorc builds.

To be perfectly honest though, a big part of what has brought back magsorc specifically, was the changes to destro and status effects being combined with the changes to ward. The changes to status effects and the fact that they are basically flat damage procs that synergize extremely well with destro staff abilities and passives allows magsorc to stack as much mag as they do for ward while still having very good ranged damage.

Before those changes to status effects (also done last patch, U40) the stamina weapons were simply superior to staves, even on mag builds because of the generic raw stats they provided that buffed everything from procs, to damage to even healing and more and it was at a point that ranged magicka couldn't attempt to keep up with melee stamina (outside of a select few top 0.1% players and NB's) despite the advantage of being ranged.

---

It's why there is so much push back on simply having a blanket "nerf ward" statement. Making the burst heal into a HoT, or having the heal scale off damage instead of mag so its not easy to have both tooltips so high, are both good ideas for fixes that will keep ward strong, but not broken (think 35k health warden or current, post corrosive nerf DK, or arc post shield nerf).
Removing the heal from ward entirely will only serve to put magsorc specifically, directly back to plar level where that spec will once again be the first one targeted down because it can't defend itself or escape while stam/healthsorc would remain relatively unchanged. It's a balancing act, but it needs to be done right because magsorc plays so differently and has completely different issues to stam/health sorc, even now with everything hybridized.

---

@xylena_lazarow this previous paragraph (separated by the lines above) is why it is important to also include ideas for potential fixes for balance issues, because by providing those ideas, instead of just putting blanket "this is OP, needs nerf!" statements out there it helps reduce the back and forth (outside of the few who will always do this) and makes it easier to discuss things constructively.
It's a lot easier to understand the issue, reach a consensus and agree to a potential solution with a comment like the following spoiler:

The current design of the burst heal of hardened ward makes hardened ward overall too strong, but removing the heal entirely is too harsh of a nerf that will only hurt the majority of sorcs.
By making the burst heal into a heal over time, or by changing the heal to scale off damage instead of mag would bring the total power of the skill more inline with other equivalent skills while still keeping it in a strong spot for all sorcs.

While those discussing the issue may never agree on the best solution, and ZOS will very likely just completely ignore the ideas anyway and just do their own thing, at least those discussing the topic (and ZOS reading the thread) can see where those who are calling for nerfs to things want those nerfed abilities to be in terms of power and how much they need to be nerfed by (a lot or a little) instead of trying to guess and making huge changes that only hurt things more.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

For the n-th time, you cannot offer evidence to prove a negative. It’s like asking someone to prove that God DOESN’T exist. The onus is on those claiming there IS something not that there ISN’T.

The evidence you’ve provided is not convincing and incredibly situational. Continues to be to this day.

If I were to post screen grabs of mag sorcs getting destroyed or losing duels, you would just claim that they suck. Your demand for evidence is a lose-lose situation for anyone who opposes you.

I’d love to never post in this thread again, but until those who obsessively continue to complain about this important change stop, I’m not going to stop either.

This entire thread is kind of just for laughs at this point. This clearly isn't getting changed any time soon and it's very unlikely a dev could or would read this and make any sense of it.

The only conclusive information is in regards to 1v1 which doesn't matter because the game isn't balanced around that.

Static and others try to make arguments in a vacuum when the game doesn't really work that way when we talk all balance.

At this point I think this thread is just something for people to do

Nothing gets nerfed with your logic lol

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

For the n-th time, you cannot offer evidence to prove a negative. It’s like asking someone to prove that God DOESN’T exist. The onus is on those claiming there IS something not that there ISN’T.

The evidence you’ve provided is not convincing and incredibly situational. Continues to be to this day.

If I were to post screen grabs of mag sorcs getting destroyed or losing duels, you would just claim that they suck. Your demand for evidence is a lose-lose situation for anyone who opposes you.

I’d love to never post in this thread again, but until those who obsessively continue to complain about this important change stop, I’m not going to stop either.

I’ve already proven ward is busted lol. You need to do the same when you claim ward isn’t.

In fact you still havent accepted the 1v1 challenge as well as the BG challenge I requested. That’s going to prove whether Ward is too strong or not. So why dodge?

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've played around with other setups that have much better risk/reward.

Like?

This is my typical Max Magicka Setup (ignore the recoveries didn't have Torc or a potion Proc'd)




This is a less tanky damage focused setup (same thing for recoveries as above).

Damage focused sees 12% higher damage than the other setup, exact same recoveries etc for each. This is without minor sorcery from group play in which it would likely be 15% higher damage.

Max Magicka setup is tanky but isn't outputting the damage id like it too. Prefer the bottom where there is more risk but more reward.

That being said 50k magicka (without Rallying cry) doesn't make you immortal. Two good players can still burn me down just fine.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

For the n-th time, you cannot offer evidence to prove a negative. It’s like asking someone to prove that God DOESN’T exist. The onus is on those claiming there IS something not that there ISN’T.

The evidence you’ve provided is not convincing and incredibly situational. Continues to be to this day.

If I were to post screen grabs of mag sorcs getting destroyed or losing duels, you would just claim that they suck. Your demand for evidence is a lose-lose situation for anyone who opposes you.

I’d love to never post in this thread again, but until those who obsessively continue to complain about this important change stop, I’m not going to stop either.

This entire thread is kind of just for laughs at this point. This clearly isn't getting changed any time soon and it's very unlikely a dev could or would read this and make any sense of it.

The only conclusive information is in regards to 1v1 which doesn't matter because the game isn't balanced around that.

Static and others try to make arguments in a vacuum when the game doesn't really work that way when we talk all balance.

At this point I think this thread is just something for people to do

Nothing gets nerfed with your logic lol

Well actually I'm not against the people who make the game and have all the data making judgement calls on nerfs.

I'm also not against understanding nerf request from players when seemingly the majority agrees. That makes sense and I can see devs looking at that.

In a case like this where there's a lot of back and forth which shows there is no majority in agreement and there is no clear easily repeatable demonstration or definition because it would require data none of us has access to then yes it's just people basically talking back and forth with no way to reach a meaningful conclusion.

It's just now something for people to talk about because they just feel like it.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

i’m talking about how you constantly intimate to people that they suck or should keep their mouths shut because they aren’t who you consider a top player.

It keeps being intimated that myself and Static are not "real Sorcs" by players who may have enough skill to minmax their mag pool and weave Crushing Shock on a staff, but who lack the skill to survive without burst heals.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's just now something for people to talk about because they just feel like it.

Tends to happen when the game gets particularly unbalanced and people cut their playtime.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Damage focused sees 12% higher damage than the other setup

Comparable with going 64 stam vs 64 hp on a stamsorc. Doesn't this just support the argument that Ward is overpowered though? You yourself recognize that Ward doesn't even need full investment. I've been running zero investment Ward on a base 30k hp stamsorc, and it matches or exceeds the performance of Impervious on my Arc.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

[snip]

This or threads like it will keep going as long as Ward keeps screwing up competitive balance, stalemating fights, and making casuals ask for old pre-nerf Shield Breaker to be back in the game.

[edited to remove quote]

RomanRex

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This or threads like it will keep going as long as

Ward keeps screwing up competitive balance,
It isn’t

stalemating fights,
It isn’t

and making casuals ask for old pre-nerf Shield Breaker to be back in the game.
Only “casuals” asking for this? That’s seems like a silly thing to qualify the statement with.

StaticWave

@xylena_lazarow

[snip] There are literally clips of ppl spamming ward vs a full proc DK/Warden and prolonging the fight when they should’ve died on any other class and some dude here says ward doesn’t stalemate fights 🤣🤣

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

@xylena_lazarow

This is a clip of a stream Fe7on did a week ago where he dueled a magsorc. Watch how that Sorc literally face-tanked a mDW/Vate DK with WINGS (which counters ranged builds and can easily do 1k-1.5k DPS vs ranged classes):

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableCarefulDeerPanicVis-WXqkHAtYSbjhx9gh

Fe7on also has a magsorc too. At the start of the clip he even said Sorc is too strong rn 🤣🤣. Actually baffling to say Ward isn’t stalemating fights when Sorcs are face tanking a full proc build without needing to Streak as often 🤣🤣 [snip]

[edited for baiting]

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

Let's do some hypothetical scenarios of why a hypothetical player would make this hypothetical argument:

1) they are a PvP god who never stalemates because they kill everyone

2) they are mid and never stalemate because they only ever zerg and beat up on bad players

3) they are bad and never stalemate because they keep dying

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

In that same stream, Fe7on dueled a NB and that NB literally had to Vigor, Cloak, camp Path, dodge roll, and block multiple times just to survive his DK

Meanwhile the Sorc just spams 1 skill and tanks dmg like it’s nothing. Not a single dodge roll or block used other than to roll out of Fossilize root. How do people still defend it lmao

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

[snip]

Let's do some hypothetical scenarios of why a hypothetical player would make this hypothetical argument:

1) they are a PvP god who never stalemates because they kill everyone

2) they are mid and never stalemate because they only ever zerg and beat up on bad players

3) they are bad and never stalemate because they keep dying

Probably 2) and 3) tbh. The top Sorcs I talk to all agree Ward is busted 🤣

[edited to remove quote]