Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

And same goes for if you pop a shield at super low health like 5% (1500). You will die next patch against this ability, where as someone with a true burst heal like Coagulating or Healthy offering will survive.

And you can always counter that by slotting Vigor over Bound Aegis. You will still have a decent shield and burst heal tooltip (12k shield and 6-7k burst heal), while also having Vigor, Blood Magic, and Crit Surge. Sorc is going to fair much better vs Oblivion damage than other classes due to Ward's mechanic.

It's pretty simple to test. Have 2 players apply 4+ DoTs and heavy attack you with Knight Slayer. Use a modified shield build with Vigor for 1st test and burst heal build for 2nd test. You'll see why the shield build is better defensively.

Then you'd have to test what happens if you add more players doing damage because that's what happens in gvg. Whoever is there to be targeted will eventually get targeted. That's just the ebb and flow of gvg no matter how damage resistant an opponent is.

A Sorc might survive better due to having Streak, but generally any class will have a fairly good chance of surviving in a GvG. There's going to be cross-healing involved, and eventually someone will die, but that depends entirely on the group optimization, synchronization, and individual skill.

Of course when we analyze the larger fights then most of the weaknesses of a class have already been covered by group optimization. You could be playing a class with zero burst heal and you'd do fine if there are 3-4 healers providing that for you and 7-8+ HoTs rolling every 2s.

It's usually the smaller sized groups down to an individual player that we tend to see more specific imbalances between classes, as the players have to manage more roles and cover more weaknesses with limited resources.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

preferences also play a part

Yeah! About time the devs respect my preferences to be good at everything and have no weaknesses! /s

Priyasekarssk

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, Ward is the only ability right now that allows you to just ignore core combat mechanics if you have a decent tooltip. You don’t need to roll dodge or block when 1v1ing on a Sorc. Every other class has to if they don’t want to die. It was fine back then without the burst heal, but now it isn’t. If you can’t see the problem created by having a big shield + a decent heal in 1 GCD, then nobody can discuss balancing issues with you.

Get a life. I can tell you never played mage sorc before in pvp settings . No mage sorc can ever survive on shields and stand still. They need to jump or keep moving or streak to survive. If you can’t kill somebody it’s not overpowered by any means . Sorc instant heal is much needed change to play the class in PvP. Even then it’s less heal than any other class. It’s made mage sorc viable in cyrodil and 1v1. If want mage sorcery to be nerfed Zos is not going to change it. There are so many overpowered things in this game Vampire stage 3 damage reduction. Speed hacking. It’s long overdue. It’s only waste of time going behind genuine things for personal reasons.
Good luck.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is only considering 1v1s. While yes I agree that the oblivion damage script isn't a death sentence to a Sorc in a 1v1, in Open world this quickly changes (and I'm not saying it's a death sentence open world).

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

Block healing won't fair any better. You're still taking DoT pressure which goes through block, and 2 players doing 5k oblivion damage through block will kill that player.

It's definitely not disingenuous if you consider the circumstances. Or we can also acknowledge that Sorc and NB currently have the best mobility in the game with Hurricane + Streak and Cloak. At the very worst, they can just Streak or Cloak away, but pretty much every other class won't have a reliable escape option.

I mean, you’ve literally proved that yourself when we fought in a BG game. You on your 50k+ mag sorc with Hurricane, being able to tank enough damage in a 1v1 and still has the ability to Streak away at high speeds. I can’t do that on a DK or Warden or Necro. I have to tank the damage and eventually die.

That will be the case for next patch. At worst, a Sorc can just streak away if they’re fighting several Oblivion dmg users. Not so much for other classes.

Shields are likely taking 15% more damage (bastion) than typical health for DoTs. I'm not sure if my play experience is just significantly different than yours but DoTs in GvG are just not a crazy part of the incoming damage (with the exception of Dawnbreaker DoT). Your active healing generally counteracts DoTs and when moving around in GvG situations players aren't typically pressuring a single target with a bunch of DoTs (individually) that would take way too much time in a fast paced environment. When I see people die in GvG it's from an overload of direct damage abilities not 10 DoTs that got stacked up because maintaining them in a GvG setting is... Complicated? And there are generally A LOT of purges going around in GvG settings. So once again, direct damage is King in GvG. 1v1s sure DoT pressure matters (I really think this is your area of expertise which makes sense on why most of your arguments have a Bias towards it, no hate, you have amazing dueling analytics and I commend you for those, just think your Open World experience is a bit outdated)

Now that that's cleared up. Block healing will be significantly better against this ability (in group scenarios) than Shields.

1. Brings you out of the execute phase threshold of this ability (most heals will bring you above 50% regardless of what % health you are at at the time of cast).
2. Gives a larger pool to absorb that damage. Two players One Sorc one None Sorc. Both were at 10% health (3k) and cast their Heal/Shield. Sorc now has 7k health and a 14k ward (I would say add a HoT to make it 10k but if a Sorc is defensively Warding this isn't a guaranteed thing), other is at 13-16k health between the heal and HoT active. The Sorc is going to take likely 4500 oblivion damage per instance of this script. The other player will be taking likely 2500 oblivion damage per instance.
3. The Sorc is going to be chasing a non execute threshold constantly where as the Burst heal player will provide relief from Oblivion damage execute scaling.


You said to slot Vigor to counter this new skill. So you are recognizing that this is a SERIOUS threat otherwise you'd suggest playing the same.

All other "defensive" healing classes will continue to play as is, Shield users will have to adapt.

So really you countered your own statements by recognizing that Sorcs will have to slot a RELIABLE HoT to counter the oblivion damage. And isn't that exactly what you've been requesting all along? That Sorcs should have to slot Vigor? And it supports @Bushido2513 comments saying that the changes to Ward were likely in anticipation of this addition.

Because this is a OG shield breaker on steroids. And I'm not sure how many Sorcs were around during those Days but I was and I played similar to how I do now (no traditional burst heal and entirely use Wards, at that time hardened and harness, to absorb damage) and if I didn't focus that player down immediately, I was dead. This will be that, but much worse...

StaticWave

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, Ward is the only ability right now that allows you to just ignore core combat mechanics if you have a decent tooltip. You don’t need to roll dodge or block when 1v1ing on a Sorc. Every other class has to if they don’t want to die. It was fine back then without the burst heal, but now it isn’t. If you can’t see the problem created by having a big shield + a decent heal in 1 GCD, then nobody can discuss balancing issues with you.

Get a life. I can tell you never played mage sorc before in pvp settings . No mage sorc can ever survive on shields and stand still. They need to jump or keep moving or streak to survive. If you can’t kill somebody it’s not overpowered by any means . Sorc instant heal is much needed change to play the class in PvP. Even then it’s less heal than any other class. It’s made mage sorc viable in cyrodil and 1v1. If want mage sorcery to be nerfed Zos is not going to change it. There are so many overpowered things in this game Vampire stage 3 damage reduction. Speed hacking. It’s long overdue. It’s only waste of time going behind genuine things for personal reasons.
Good luck.

Can’t take this seriously 🤣🤣

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is only considering 1v1s. While yes I agree that the oblivion damage script isn't a death sentence to a Sorc in a 1v1, in Open world this quickly changes (and I'm not saying it's a death sentence open world).

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

Block healing won't fair any better. You're still taking DoT pressure which goes through block, and 2 players doing 5k oblivion damage through block will kill that player.

It's definitely not disingenuous if you consider the circumstances. Or we can also acknowledge that Sorc and NB currently have the best mobility in the game with Hurricane + Streak and Cloak. At the very worst, they can just Streak or Cloak away, but pretty much every other class won't have a reliable escape option.

I mean, you’ve literally proved that yourself when we fought in a BG game. You on your 50k+ mag sorc with Hurricane, being able to tank enough damage in a 1v1 and still has the ability to Streak away at high speeds. I can’t do that on a DK or Warden or Necro. I have to tank the damage and eventually die.

That will be the case for next patch. At worst, a Sorc can just streak away if they’re fighting several Oblivion dmg users. Not so much for other classes.

Shields are likely taking 15% more damage (bastion) than typical health for DoTs. I'm not sure if my play experience is just significantly different than yours but DoTs in GvG are just not a crazy part of the incoming damage (with the exception of Dawnbreaker DoT). Your active healing generally counteracts DoTs and when moving around in GvG situations players aren't typically pressuring a single target with a bunch of DoTs (individually) that would take way too much time in a fast paced environment. When I see people die in GvG it's from an overload of direct damage abilities not 10 DoTs that got stacked up because maintaining them in a GvG setting is... Complicated? And there are generally A LOT of purges going around in GvG settings. So once again, direct damage is King in GvG. 1v1s sure DoT pressure matters (I really think this is your area of expertise which makes sense on why most of your arguments have a Bias towards it, no hate, you have amazing dueling analytics and I commend you for those, just think your Open World experience is a bit outdated)

Now that that's cleared up. Block healing will be significantly better against this ability (in group scenarios) than Shields.

1. Brings you out of the execute phase threshold of this ability (most heals will bring you above 50% regardless of what % health you are at at the time of cast).
2. Gives a larger pool to absorb that damage. Two players One Sorc one None Sorc. Both were at 10% health (3k) and cast their Heal/Shield. Sorc now has 7k health and a 14k ward (I would say add a HoT to make it 10k but if a Sorc is defensively Warding this isn't a guaranteed thing), other is at 13-16k health between the heal and HoT active. The Sorc is going to take likely 4500 oblivion damage per instance of this script. The other player will be taking likely 2500 oblivion damage per instance.
3. The Sorc is going to be chasing a non execute threshold constantly where as the Burst heal player will provide relief from Oblivion damage execute scaling.


You said to slot Vigor to counter this new skill. So you are recognizing that this is a SERIOUS threat otherwise you'd suggest playing the same.

All other "defensive" healing classes will continue to play as is, Shield users will have to adapt.

So really you countered your own statements by recognizing that Sorcs will have to slot a RELIABLE HoT to counter the oblivion damage. And isn't that exactly what you've been requesting all along? That Sorcs should have to slot Vigor? And it supports @Bushido2513 comments saying that the changes to Ward were likely in anticipation of this addition.

Because this is a OG shield breaker on steroids. And I'm not sure how many Sorcs were around during those Days but I was and I played similar to how I do now (no traditional burst heal and entirely use Wards, at that time hardened and harness, to absorb damage) and if I didn't focus that player down immediately, I was dead. This will be that, but much worse...

You’re assuming most ppl even slot Bastion in the first place lol. I can assure you a lot of them would rather slot Relentlessness for Major Protection than Bastion, so it’s a moot point.

Also, your scenario is biased. 2 players at 10% HP (3k HP). The 1st player uses a shield and goes to 7k HP with a 14k ward, implying a 4k NON CRIT burst heal. Yet the 2nd player goes from 3k to 13k-16k, implying a 10k non crit? On my NB with 7k WD and 26k mag, my non crit burst heal is around 7k, and when crit it’s around 14k. That’s a 14k tooltip before battle spirit. So if we’re going to be fair, the 2nd will only go from 3k HP to 10k HP.

One thing you’re probably not counting in your scenario is the cross healing from teammates. It’s very unlikely that you will be in execute phase for more than half a second with several cross heals. I know because I’ve been pocketed by a healer and I legit cannot die. The moment I get low, I get healed for 8-9k from my pocket healer, on top of my own Ward heal and HoTs. That’s why in a group setting it isn’t going to matter whether I have Ward or a burst heal.

Yes, I said slot Vigor to help with healing. Isn’t that how almost every magsorc was using last patch? I agree Oblivion damage on a spammable is aids, but we aren’t playing with old shields anymore. We have max stat scaling and can use more tools to counter that now. Things like Vigor can help tremendously, especially when Sorc just got a 10% max mag buff to increase the heal tooltip AND Blood Magic buff. I’m sure Sorc will be fine.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is only considering 1v1s. While yes I agree that the oblivion damage script isn't a death sentence to a Sorc in a 1v1, in Open world this quickly changes (and I'm not saying it's a death sentence open world).

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

Block healing won't fair any better. You're still taking DoT pressure which goes through block, and 2 players doing 5k oblivion damage through block will kill that player.

It's definitely not disingenuous if you consider the circumstances. Or we can also acknowledge that Sorc and NB currently have the best mobility in the game with Hurricane + Streak and Cloak. At the very worst, they can just Streak or Cloak away, but pretty much every other class won't have a reliable escape option.

I mean, you’ve literally proved that yourself when we fought in a BG game. You on your 50k+ mag sorc with Hurricane, being able to tank enough damage in a 1v1 and still has the ability to Streak away at high speeds. I can’t do that on a DK or Warden or Necro. I have to tank the damage and eventually die.

That will be the case for next patch. At worst, a Sorc can just streak away if they’re fighting several Oblivion dmg users. Not so much for other classes.

Shields are likely taking 15% more damage (bastion) than typical health for DoTs. I'm not sure if my play experience is just significantly different than yours but DoTs in GvG are just not a crazy part of the incoming damage (with the exception of Dawnbreaker DoT). Your active healing generally counteracts DoTs and when moving around in GvG situations players aren't typically pressuring a single target with a bunch of DoTs (individually) that would take way too much time in a fast paced environment. When I see people die in GvG it's from an overload of direct damage abilities not 10 DoTs that got stacked up because maintaining them in a GvG setting is... Complicated? And there are generally A LOT of purges going around in GvG settings. So once again, direct damage is King in GvG. 1v1s sure DoT pressure matters (I really think this is your area of expertise which makes sense on why most of your arguments have a Bias towards it, no hate, you have amazing dueling analytics and I commend you for those, just think your Open World experience is a bit outdated)

Now that that's cleared up. Block healing will be significantly better against this ability (in group scenarios) than Shields.

1. Brings you out of the execute phase threshold of this ability (most heals will bring you above 50% regardless of what % health you are at at the time of cast).
2. Gives a larger pool to absorb that damage. Two players One Sorc one None Sorc. Both were at 10% health (3k) and cast their Heal/Shield. Sorc now has 7k health and a 14k ward (I would say add a HoT to make it 10k but if a Sorc is defensively Warding this isn't a guaranteed thing), other is at 13-16k health between the heal and HoT active. The Sorc is going to take likely 4500 oblivion damage per instance of this script. The other player will be taking likely 2500 oblivion damage per instance.
3. The Sorc is going to be chasing a non execute threshold constantly where as the Burst heal player will provide relief from Oblivion damage execute scaling.


You said to slot Vigor to counter this new skill. So you are recognizing that this is a SERIOUS threat otherwise you'd suggest playing the same.

All other "defensive" healing classes will continue to play as is, Shield users will have to adapt.

So really you countered your own statements by recognizing that Sorcs will have to slot a RELIABLE HoT to counter the oblivion damage. And isn't that exactly what you've been requesting all along? That Sorcs should have to slot Vigor? And it supports @Bushido2513 comments saying that the changes to Ward were likely in anticipation of this addition.

Because this is a OG shield breaker on steroids. And I'm not sure how many Sorcs were around during those Days but I was and I played similar to how I do now (no traditional burst heal and entirely use Wards, at that time hardened and harness, to absorb damage) and if I didn't focus that player down immediately, I was dead. This will be that, but much worse...

You’re assuming most ppl even slot Bastion in the first place lol. I can assure you a lot of them would rather slot Relentlessness for Major Protection than Bastion, so it’s a moot point.

Also, your scenario is biased. 2 players at 10% HP (3k HP). The 1st player uses a shield and goes to 7k HP with a 14k ward, implying a 4k NON CRIT burst heal. Yet the 2nd player goes from 3k to 13k-16k, implying a 10k non crit? On my NB with 7k WD and 26k mag, my non crit burst heal is around 7k, and when crit it’s around 14k. That’s a 14k tooltip before battle spirit. So if we’re going to be fair, the 2nd will only go from 3k HP to 10k HP.

One thing you’re probably not counting in your scenario is the cross healing from teammates. It’s very unlikely that you will be in execute phase for more than half a second with several cross heals. I know because I’ve been pocketed by a healer and I legit cannot die. The moment I get low, I get healed for 8-9k from my pocket healer, on top of my own Ward heal and HoTs. That’s why in a group setting it isn’t going to matter whether I have Ward or a burst heal.

Yes, I said slot Vigor to help with healing. Isn’t that how almost every magsorc was using last patch? I agree Oblivion damage on a spammable is aids, but we aren’t playing with old shields anymore. We have max stat scaling and can use more tools to counter that now. Things like Vigor can help tremendously, especially when Sorc just got a 10% max mag buff to increase the heal tooltip AND Blood Magic buff. I’m sure Sorc will be fine.

You're right I probably have a Bias on healing values because I don't venture outside of Sorcs much (I can't play without the degree of mobility and AoE CC that Sorc offers it's too good for outnumbered fights).

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health). Maybe it's because I fight around keeps and resources a lot where healing is buffed? But I know I'm not crazy and that 15-20k heals 100% exist within the scope of cyrodiil (where as you're likely quoting dueling values). And 4k heal is a very common number I see with my own healing.

But agreed when a healer is present it won't really matter class to class.

And not every Sorc, I did perfectly fine without Vigor and played at a very competitive level open world.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health).

if magsorc is the new standard for balance, then let's put a 17k damage shield on Coagulating Blood

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health).

if magsorc is the new standard for balance, then let's put a 17k damage shield on Coagulating Blood

As long as I can get Flames of Oblivion and Cinder Storm

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

And same goes for if you pop a shield at super low health like 5% (1500). You will die next patch against this ability, where as someone with a true burst heal like Coagulating or Healthy offering will survive.

And you can always counter that by slotting Vigor over Bound Aegis. You will still have a decent shield and burst heal tooltip (12k shield and 6-7k burst heal), while also having Vigor, Blood Magic, and Crit Surge. Sorc is going to fair much better vs Oblivion damage than other classes due to Ward's mechanic.

It's pretty simple to test. Have 2 players apply 4+ DoTs and heavy attack you with Knight Slayer. Use a modified shield build with Vigor for 1st test and burst heal build for 2nd test. You'll see why the shield build is better defensively.

Then you'd have to test what happens if you add more players doing damage because that's what happens in gvg. Whoever is there to be targeted will eventually get targeted. That's just the ebb and flow of gvg no matter how damage resistant an opponent is.

A Sorc might survive better due to having Streak, but generally any class will have a fairly good chance of surviving in a GvG. There's going to be cross-healing involved, and eventually someone will die, but that depends entirely on the group optimization, synchronization, and individual skill.

Of course when we analyze the larger fights then most of the weaknesses of a class have already been covered by group optimization. You could be playing a class with zero burst heal and you'd do fine if there are 3-4 healers providing that for you and 7-8+ HoTs rolling every 2s.

It's usually the smaller sized groups down to an individual player that we tend to see more specific imbalances between classes, as the players have to manage more roles and cover more weaknesses with limited resources.

This is why I think this change isn't such a big deal and maybe even needed when you take into account gvg with oblivion damage and what not flinging around.

What you describe above leads to a more accessible pvp experience though it's not without issues when you have flights that last way longer than they should and are more about a rotation test of endurance than a fun battle.

Again it's not a great answer but I do hope that giving everyone easy access to oblivion damage with execute scaling will lead to more people dying in pvp in general.

I'd also be ok with taking the heal off ward if they would adjust the heals on all other classes. But it looks like we're getting the former not the latter.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

preferences also play a part

Yeah! About time the devs respect my preferences to be good at everything and have no weaknesses! /s

Well they gave you nightblade previously. Try it out, high damage, damage mitigation, burst heal, HOT, built in sustain tools, mobility, invisibility. Dk is fairly up there though it does lack mobility which it makes up for with mitigation.

Jsmalls

Welp disregard anything about oppressive oblivion damage since they walked that back (thank Sotha Sil).

So yeah Ward is still Overtuned and would benefit from an adjustment (HoT that properly scales seems to be a favorite).

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is only considering 1v1s. While yes I agree that the oblivion damage script isn't a death sentence to a Sorc in a 1v1, in Open world this quickly changes (and I'm not saying it's a death sentence open world).

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

Block healing won't fair any better. You're still taking DoT pressure which goes through block, and 2 players doing 5k oblivion damage through block will kill that player.

It's definitely not disingenuous if you consider the circumstances. Or we can also acknowledge that Sorc and NB currently have the best mobility in the game with Hurricane + Streak and Cloak. At the very worst, they can just Streak or Cloak away, but pretty much every other class won't have a reliable escape option.

I mean, you’ve literally proved that yourself when we fought in a BG game. You on your 50k+ mag sorc with Hurricane, being able to tank enough damage in a 1v1 and still has the ability to Streak away at high speeds. I can’t do that on a DK or Warden or Necro. I have to tank the damage and eventually die.

That will be the case for next patch. At worst, a Sorc can just streak away if they’re fighting several Oblivion dmg users. Not so much for other classes.

Shields are likely taking 15% more damage (bastion) than typical health for DoTs. I'm not sure if my play experience is just significantly different than yours but DoTs in GvG are just not a crazy part of the incoming damage (with the exception of Dawnbreaker DoT). Your active healing generally counteracts DoTs and when moving around in GvG situations players aren't typically pressuring a single target with a bunch of DoTs (individually) that would take way too much time in a fast paced environment. When I see people die in GvG it's from an overload of direct damage abilities not 10 DoTs that got stacked up because maintaining them in a GvG setting is... Complicated? And there are generally A LOT of purges going around in GvG settings. So once again, direct damage is King in GvG. 1v1s sure DoT pressure matters (I really think this is your area of expertise which makes sense on why most of your arguments have a Bias towards it, no hate, you have amazing dueling analytics and I commend you for those, just think your Open World experience is a bit outdated)

Now that that's cleared up. Block healing will be significantly better against this ability (in group scenarios) than Shields.

1. Brings you out of the execute phase threshold of this ability (most heals will bring you above 50% regardless of what % health you are at at the time of cast).
2. Gives a larger pool to absorb that damage. Two players One Sorc one None Sorc. Both were at 10% health (3k) and cast their Heal/Shield. Sorc now has 7k health and a 14k ward (I would say add a HoT to make it 10k but if a Sorc is defensively Warding this isn't a guaranteed thing), other is at 13-16k health between the heal and HoT active. The Sorc is going to take likely 4500 oblivion damage per instance of this script. The other player will be taking likely 2500 oblivion damage per instance.
3. The Sorc is going to be chasing a non execute threshold constantly where as the Burst heal player will provide relief from Oblivion damage execute scaling.


You said to slot Vigor to counter this new skill. So you are recognizing that this is a SERIOUS threat otherwise you'd suggest playing the same.

All other "defensive" healing classes will continue to play as is, Shield users will have to adapt.

So really you countered your own statements by recognizing that Sorcs will have to slot a RELIABLE HoT to counter the oblivion damage. And isn't that exactly what you've been requesting all along? That Sorcs should have to slot Vigor? And it supports @Bushido2513 comments saying that the changes to Ward were likely in anticipation of this addition.

Because this is a OG shield breaker on steroids. And I'm not sure how many Sorcs were around during those Days but I was and I played similar to how I do now (no traditional burst heal and entirely use Wards, at that time hardened and harness, to absorb damage) and if I didn't focus that player down immediately, I was dead. This will be that, but much worse...

You’re assuming most ppl even slot Bastion in the first place lol. I can assure you a lot of them would rather slot Relentlessness for Major Protection than Bastion, so it’s a moot point.

Also, your scenario is biased. 2 players at 10% HP (3k HP). The 1st player uses a shield and goes to 7k HP with a 14k ward, implying a 4k NON CRIT burst heal. Yet the 2nd player goes from 3k to 13k-16k, implying a 10k non crit? On my NB with 7k WD and 26k mag, my non crit burst heal is around 7k, and when crit it’s around 14k. That’s a 14k tooltip before battle spirit. So if we’re going to be fair, the 2nd will only go from 3k HP to 10k HP.

One thing you’re probably not counting in your scenario is the cross healing from teammates. It’s very unlikely that you will be in execute phase for more than half a second with several cross heals. I know because I’ve been pocketed by a healer and I legit cannot die. The moment I get low, I get healed for 8-9k from my pocket healer, on top of my own Ward heal and HoTs. That’s why in a group setting it isn’t going to matter whether I have Ward or a burst heal.

Yes, I said slot Vigor to help with healing. Isn’t that how almost every magsorc was using last patch? I agree Oblivion damage on a spammable is aids, but we aren’t playing with old shields anymore. We have max stat scaling and can use more tools to counter that now. Things like Vigor can help tremendously, especially when Sorc just got a 10% max mag buff to increase the heal tooltip AND Blood Magic buff. I’m sure Sorc will be fine.

You're right I probably have a Bias on healing values because I don't venture outside of Sorcs much (I can't play without the degree of mobility and AoE CC that Sorc offers it's too good for outnumbered fights).

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health). Maybe it's because I fight around keeps and resources a lot where healing is buffed? But I know I'm not crazy and that 15-20k heals 100% exist within the scope of cyrodiil (where as you're likely quoting dueling values). And 4k heal is a very common number I see with my own healing.

But agreed when a healer is present it won't really matter class to class.

And not every Sorc, I did perfectly fine without Vigor and played at a very competitive level open world.

Those burst heal numbers are most likely inflated by Combat Medic passive (20% healing done when near a keep), especially if you do Cyrodiil a lot. When I was testing Dragon's Appetite with around 41k max stam, I was getting an 18k heal tooltip before Battle Spirit with Combat Medic passive. Combined with Minor Vitality and Focused Mending CP, I got around 10k non crit burst heal with Battle Spirit and 17k crit. The actual non-inflated tooltip value would probably be closer to 15k, which is still plenty and equivalent to a standard burst heal in a full damage build.

I think the most important thing that allowed you to play at a competitive level open world without relying on Vigor is Streak and mobility. A Sorc that can make good use of Streak and mobility is extremely difficult to kill. I think with Ward giving a HoT instead of a burst heal, a Sorc can have some added survivability but isn't too ahead of other classes in terms of tankiness.

HowlKimchi

Good to see new names who agree that the ward is busted

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

Welp disregard anything about oppressive oblivion damage since they walked that back (thank Sotha Sil).

So yeah Ward is still Overtuned and would benefit from an adjustment (HoT that properly scales seems to be a favorite).

Yep, considering the following changes:
- Vault now has a proper ramping cost like all "blink" abilities
- Oblivion damage scripts are now DoTs with a significantly longer cooldown

Hardened heal can now easily be made into a HoT with appropriate scaling on the HoT.

Something that could be tested IF ZOS is set on keeping it as a burst heal instead of making it a HoT, would be to have the heal and shield be 1 total value that changes based on the current percent of health the caster is on when the ability is cast:
- At or below 10% health it is a pure burst heal with no shield
- At or above 90% health it is a pure shield with no heal
- Between 10% and 90% it splits the total heal + shield value accordingly (e.g. 50% current health = 50/50 split).
This way there's no (or super minimal) Temporary health buffer when it's cast at low health, but the heal is more like other class's burst heals and when it is cast at/near max health there's no heal component and it basically functions like the old ward used to before it got the heal added.

If nothing else it would be interesting to see how this kind of change would play out for ward.

FYI: I still think that Polar, Offering and Coag are just as problematic as Ward (polar and offering especially), especially now that every class is getting access to another alternative to streak, oblivion damage, and access to wards via scribing to stack with those heals, but I'll leave those to be discussed on their own thread.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health).

if magsorc is the new standard for balance, then let's put a 17k damage shield on Coagulating Blood

Sure, as long as Sorc gets flames of oblivion/cauterize, corrosive and the base heal on ward is significantly increased and also granted execute scaling.

Chilly-McFreeze

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This way there's no (or super minimal) Temporary health buffer when it's cast at low health, but the heal is more like other class's burst heals and when it is cast at/near max health there's no heal component and it basically functions like the old ward used to before it got the heal added.

Wouldn't that just still elude the original intended drawback of wards? That they are not "get out of execute"-reactive sources of mitigation unlike other classes' burst heals?

StaticWave

I think one of the more needed changes right now is a rework to Mage's Fury and its morph. For an execute that requires slotting on your bar, it's laughably weak and is really only useful in Deathmatch modes to steal kills. Either increasing the required HP threshold to 50% to standardize with other executes if we want to keep the delayed dmg mechanic, or remove the delay mechanic and increasing the threshold to 50% is warranted by now.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

I think one of the more needed changes right now is a rework to Mage's Fury and its morph. For an execute that requires slotting on your bar, it's laughably weak and is really only useful in Deathmatch modes to steal kills. Either increasing the required HP threshold to 50% to standardize with other executes if we want to keep the delayed dmg mechanic, or remove the delay mechanic and increasing the threshold to 50% is warranted by now.

Magsorcs have been requesting this for years now. This was also something I was talking about back in my original U36 thread on buffing/fixing sorcs and was the most common point raised in the threads regarding the sorc class set.

If I were to rework it, I would do the following:

• 1 Morph (Wrath) would remain similar to its current form but with a few tweaks for those who enjoy it's current design:
  • Increase the threshold to 30%
  • Make it reliable
    - For some reason, despite being a sticky debuff/proc it can be dodged
    - It can be blocked (at least this makes some sense)
    - 90% of the time it doesn't even proc the execute damage because of desyncs between the caster, target and the servers
• Completely rework the other morph (Endless).
  • Something like spin to win but single target.
  • Base damage is closer to a spammable
  • Execute scaling threshold at 50%
  • Execute damage only scales to 100% or 150% instead of the standard 300% to 400% of other ST execute abilities like executioner/killers blade

This would help to separate it from being another carbon copy of the 2h and NB execute skills as it could then also be used as a combined "spammable" and "execute" in one, while being slightly weaker than either of those in their purest form (just like spin to win is).
This would also help the sorc storm calling class set (Monolith of Storms) actually be usable as a fun/themed/RP set, since fury would be closer to a spammable to set up the monoliths without giving up 90% of your DPS for those 4-6 seconds it takes to set it up and removes the need to force an unplayable, wonky rotation to have the set simply function.

Turtle_Bot

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This way there's no (or super minimal) Temporary health buffer when it's cast at low health, but the heal is more like other class's burst heals and when it is cast at/near max health there's no heal component and it basically functions like the old ward used to before it got the heal added.

Wouldn't that just still elude the original intended drawback of wards? That they are not "get out of execute"-reactive sources of mitigation unlike other classes' burst heals?

Having the heal be a HoT would be the preferred adjustment, but, if ZOS is not going to change it to a HoT, this was something to test. At least it will provide valuable information on the effects of a potential adjustment that could be made for wards that have heals attached.

That used to be the downside for wards, but buffs to other defensive mechanics and mechanical nerfs to wards and how they function has compounded to make them very lackluster as a defensive mechanic compared to other mechanics that were buffed (block/dodge casting heals, LoS).
The downsides to wards mechanically currently are as follows:

- Do not "get out of execute" (the heal on hardened does technically do this, but wards as a mechanic don't do this).
- Doesn't gain mitigation values outside of armor (including block which is a huge amount of mitigation to not have)

e.g. A ward has temporary health of 10k with 50% mitigation from max armor, as such, to remove that temporary health requires dealing 20k pre-mitigation damage to delete that 10k ward. Meanwhile block casting a 10k burst heal will have that same 50% mitigation from max armor + named buffs + CP + block mitigation which averages to about 75% mitigation on most PvP DD builds, meaning that to delete that 10k block cast heal, you need to deal 25k pre-mitigation damage.
This also doesn't take into account tank builds that can have over 98% mitigation while blocking which requires absurd, levels of damage (that aren't possible for a single player on a regular build) to remove that same 10k health that the block cast heal gives.

- Temporary buffer that falls off (heals don't disappear from the health bar after 6 seconds).
- Cannot be critically cast (they have a set size that cannot be increased by critically casting them).
- Wards used to also not have a named buff that boosted their size, now they vitality, but diseased now reduces their size.

All class heals also have secondary effects

- plar restores resources
- NB is significantly cheaper + mending
- cro provides unique armor
- warden has HoT or stun
- DK has execute scaling
- Arc is 3 ticks (the heal) or has a significantly bigger shield for the first second (ward)
- Sorc (with this idea) would provide a reverse scaling temporary health buffer offering usability when at/near max health

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution or even something that must happen, but it's at least something that would be interesting to try out and see what happens IF ZOS is so intent on keeping the heal on Hardened Ward as a burst heal.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well they gave you nightblade previously.

We know, we tried to give it back

NB established a horrendous precedent that everyone should be able to heal like a Templar and face tank like a DK with no weaknesses. Unless you want to count the idiotic cast times on ults that fail to temper its power ceiling, only making it less consistent and more frustrating to pilot in lag. Why they decided on clunky cast times rather than speeding up the animations, who knows, is it some sort of industry trend to use clumsiness and unreliability as a balancing factor?

In conclusion, inspired by the amazing balance of the NB class, let's leave the stupid heal and instead put a cast time on Hardened Ward like they were originally gonna do with the skill on the PTS all those years ago!

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

Welp disregard anything about oppressive oblivion damage since they walked that back (thank Sotha Sil).

So yeah Ward is still Overtuned and would benefit from an adjustment (HoT that properly scales seems to be a favorite).

I wouldn't be so quick to disregard it. I think we'd still have to see how it shakes out in open world combat. Sure it's not as directly harsh as it was but I think these a abilities could still be effective in pushing back ward users when combined with other tactics.

I guess we'll see soon enough though.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is only considering 1v1s. While yes I agree that the oblivion damage script isn't a death sentence to a Sorc in a 1v1, in Open world this quickly changes (and I'm not saying it's a death sentence open world).

If you're using a Shield at let's say 20% of your health (6k), each oblivion proc will be doing ~4500 damage to you. Any class that uses a burst heal as their main defensive "heal' would stand a better chance against let's say two players using the scribe against them than a Sorc would.

Block healing won't fair any better. You're still taking DoT pressure which goes through block, and 2 players doing 5k oblivion damage through block will kill that player.

It's definitely not disingenuous if you consider the circumstances. Or we can also acknowledge that Sorc and NB currently have the best mobility in the game with Hurricane + Streak and Cloak. At the very worst, they can just Streak or Cloak away, but pretty much every other class won't have a reliable escape option.

I mean, you’ve literally proved that yourself when we fought in a BG game. You on your 50k+ mag sorc with Hurricane, being able to tank enough damage in a 1v1 and still has the ability to Streak away at high speeds. I can’t do that on a DK or Warden or Necro. I have to tank the damage and eventually die.

That will be the case for next patch. At worst, a Sorc can just streak away if they’re fighting several Oblivion dmg users. Not so much for other classes.

Shields are likely taking 15% more damage (bastion) than typical health for DoTs. I'm not sure if my play experience is just significantly different than yours but DoTs in GvG are just not a crazy part of the incoming damage (with the exception of Dawnbreaker DoT). Your active healing generally counteracts DoTs and when moving around in GvG situations players aren't typically pressuring a single target with a bunch of DoTs (individually) that would take way too much time in a fast paced environment. When I see people die in GvG it's from an overload of direct damage abilities not 10 DoTs that got stacked up because maintaining them in a GvG setting is... Complicated? And there are generally A LOT of purges going around in GvG settings. So once again, direct damage is King in GvG. 1v1s sure DoT pressure matters (I really think this is your area of expertise which makes sense on why most of your arguments have a Bias towards it, no hate, you have amazing dueling analytics and I commend you for those, just think your Open World experience is a bit outdated)

Now that that's cleared up. Block healing will be significantly better against this ability (in group scenarios) than Shields.

1. Brings you out of the execute phase threshold of this ability (most heals will bring you above 50% regardless of what % health you are at at the time of cast).
2. Gives a larger pool to absorb that damage. Two players One Sorc one None Sorc. Both were at 10% health (3k) and cast their Heal/Shield. Sorc now has 7k health and a 14k ward (I would say add a HoT to make it 10k but if a Sorc is defensively Warding this isn't a guaranteed thing), other is at 13-16k health between the heal and HoT active. The Sorc is going to take likely 4500 oblivion damage per instance of this script. The other player will be taking likely 2500 oblivion damage per instance.
3. The Sorc is going to be chasing a non execute threshold constantly where as the Burst heal player will provide relief from Oblivion damage execute scaling.


You said to slot Vigor to counter this new skill. So you are recognizing that this is a SERIOUS threat otherwise you'd suggest playing the same.

All other "defensive" healing classes will continue to play as is, Shield users will have to adapt.

So really you countered your own statements by recognizing that Sorcs will have to slot a RELIABLE HoT to counter the oblivion damage. And isn't that exactly what you've been requesting all along? That Sorcs should have to slot Vigor? And it supports @Bushido2513 comments saying that the changes to Ward were likely in anticipation of this addition.

Because this is a OG shield breaker on steroids. And I'm not sure how many Sorcs were around during those Days but I was and I played similar to how I do now (no traditional burst heal and entirely use Wards, at that time hardened and harness, to absorb damage) and if I didn't focus that player down immediately, I was dead. This will be that, but much worse...

You’re assuming most ppl even slot Bastion in the first place lol. I can assure you a lot of them would rather slot Relentlessness for Major Protection than Bastion, so it’s a moot point.

Also, your scenario is biased. 2 players at 10% HP (3k HP). The 1st player uses a shield and goes to 7k HP with a 14k ward, implying a 4k NON CRIT burst heal. Yet the 2nd player goes from 3k to 13k-16k, implying a 10k non crit? On my NB with 7k WD and 26k mag, my non crit burst heal is around 7k, and when crit it’s around 14k. That’s a 14k tooltip before battle spirit. So if we’re going to be fair, the 2nd will only go from 3k HP to 10k HP.

One thing you’re probably not counting in your scenario is the cross healing from teammates. It’s very unlikely that you will be in execute phase for more than half a second with several cross heals. I know because I’ve been pocketed by a healer and I legit cannot die. The moment I get low, I get healed for 8-9k from my pocket healer, on top of my own Ward heal and HoTs. That’s why in a group setting it isn’t going to matter whether I have Ward or a burst heal.

Yes, I said slot Vigor to help with healing. Isn’t that how almost every magsorc was using last patch? I agree Oblivion damage on a spammable is aids, but we aren’t playing with old shields anymore. We have max stat scaling and can use more tools to counter that now. Things like Vigor can help tremendously, especially when Sorc just got a 10% max mag buff to increase the heal tooltip AND Blood Magic buff. I’m sure Sorc will be fine.

You're right I probably have a Bias on healing values because I don't venture outside of Sorcs much (I can't play without the degree of mobility and AoE CC that Sorc offers it's too good for outnumbered fights).

But I regularly see Templars, Nightblades, DKs burst heal from execute to over 75% health (so going from 7k to like 30k health). Maybe it's because I fight around keeps and resources a lot where healing is buffed? But I know I'm not crazy and that 15-20k heals 100% exist within the scope of cyrodiil (where as you're likely quoting dueling values). And 4k heal is a very common number I see with my own healing.

But agreed when a healer is present it won't really matter class to class.

And not every Sorc, I did perfectly fine without Vigor and played at a very competitive level open world.

Those burst heal numbers are most likely inflated by Combat Medic passive (20% healing done when near a keep), especially if you do Cyrodiil a lot. When I was testing Dragon's Appetite with around 41k max stam, I was getting an 18k heal tooltip before Battle Spirit with Combat Medic passive. Combined with Minor Vitality and Focused Mending CP, I got around 10k non crit burst heal with Battle Spirit and 17k crit. The actual non-inflated tooltip value would probably be closer to 15k, which is still plenty and equivalent to a standard burst heal in a full damage build.

I think the most important thing that allowed you to play at a competitive level open world without relying on Vigor is Streak and mobility. A Sorc that can make good use of Streak and mobility is extremely difficult to kill. I think with Ward giving a HoT instead of a burst heal, a Sorc can have some added survivability but isn't too ahead of other classes in terms of tankiness.

Makes sense, goes back to the whole I'm not a dueler, but I'm very much an Open World PvP player.

So my Numbers weren't out of line from a Cryodiil setpoint (I was targetting not crits).

But that portion of the conversation is null and void anyways.

DUTCH_REAPER

Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving.

Bushido2513

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving.

These kinds of post should always come with a video. Either the sorc had very little damage or the two attackers didn't have much of a rotation/damage. People can definitely be unkillable in the 1v1 but with a 2v1 it's just a matter of the two attackers having enough damage. I'm saying this in regards to a sorc or really any class being able to just tank damage and not move yet still have any actual damage.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving.

These kinds of post should always come with a video. Either the sorc had very little damage or the two attackers didn't have much of a rotation/damage. People can definitely be unkillable in the 1v1 but with a 2v1 it's just a matter of the two attackers having enough damage. I'm saying this in regards to a sorc or really any class being able to just tank damage and not move yet still have any actual damage.

No need for a video at this stage of the game. It's been widely accepted Ward is busted.

Aces-High-82

Bird ca

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving.

Must have been Adam.....tanky as hell but doesn't deal significant DMG either.

Turtle_Bot

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving.

I did the same thing yesterday, twice, on my off meta, 30k health, non-vampire (no undeath), flurry, ARCTIC warden, except both times it was a 3v1, not a 2v1.
- 1st 3v1, I killed 2 and the third jumped down a cliff and ran away.
- 2nd 3v1 (different 3) got interrupted after about 5 minutes when the zerg (my faction) showed up, but I had them on the ropes the whole time, where they were constantly running for LoS (especially the sorc that was barely hanging on thanks to the off-heals they received).

I agree that ward should have the burst heal changed to a HoT, but let's not act like it's completely impossible for the other classes to do the same thing with how much healing/mitigation is currently available and especially the massive skill/knowledge gap that still exists in the game.


@StaticWave This is why I agree with the point that a video/cmx/data is important to include when making claims like that person above made. For all we know the 2 that were attacking the sorc had zero damage on their builds or there was a massive skill gap (like was the case in my 3v1s on my warden) or the sorc was in a full tank build and had no damage (well no damage for a sorc).

Again, I agree that ward should have the burst heal switched to a HoT, but just pointing out that making unsubstantiated claims while not providing any evidence/details/explanation to help show as to why that situation occurred to back up those claims isn't useful.

DUTCH_REAPER

Hi 👋 just coming back for response.

The “2” have damage lol. Oh yes 👍
And I agree tho a video should be included. I will ensure GeForce is on for clips for future reference.

Face it. These sorcs have builds that are epic and can take punishment then dish it right back out.

Bushido2513

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Hi 👋 just coming back for response.

The “2” have damage lol. Oh yes 👍
And I agree tho a video should be included. I will ensure GeForce is on for clips for future reference.

Face it. These sorcs have builds that are epic and can take punishment then dish it right back out.

1v1 no question but 2v1 or more then I just question the attackers if the opponent doesn't move but has any relevant damage. Not appearing to take much damage in itself isn't hard at all if you don't have much damage yourself.

StaticWave

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.