Fake Tanks are hurting the game
-
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
The only way to prevent speed running in this MMO (and all other MMOs) is to remove trash mobs from dungeons and trials. Simple. There's a reason why they're called "trash mobs." They are useless enemies put in to artificially slow things down on the way to the boss, but all competent players have learned that the most efficient way to get to the next boss is to either ignore trash or cluster and burn trash. Even if they introduced stipulations (i.e. must kill all trash before boss will spawn), people would still speed through the adds to cluster them up and burn them down.
I would 100% be OK with removing trash from dungeons. Trash waves between bosses are completely uninteresting. It's the bosses that have the interesting mechanics, cool, flashy abilities, the desirable loot, etc.2 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
The only way to prevent speed running in this MMO (and all other MMOs) is to remove trash mobs from dungeons and trials. Simple. There's a reason why they're called "trash mobs." They are useless enemies put in to artificially slow things down on the way to the boss, but all competent players have learned that the most efficient way to get to the next boss is to either ignore trash or cluster and burn trash. Even if they introduced stipulations (i.e. must kill all trash before boss will spawn), people would still speed through the adds to cluster them up and burn them down.
I would 100% be OK with removing trash from dungeons. Trash waves between bosses are completely uninteresting. It's the bosses that have the interesting mechanics, cool, flashy abilities, the desirable loot, etc.
Or they could, you know, actually make the trash mobs an actual threat. Dangerous. Not just speed bumps, but actually dangerous enough that pulling 2 or 3 groups of them could mean a wipe. Thats a viable option too. But I suspect it will be an unpopular one, due to the prevalence of "gogogogogo" crowd.2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
I have to agree with Braffen. Wow doesn't prove anything. It isn't the first game to have tanks, or even dungeons. Even games without "dungeons" often have difficulty with the "durable" class.
But at least in other games there is a level of risk involved. The squishes here, are not that squishy at all. Not if you compare the DPS outputs. A DPS can do over 10 times the DPS a tank can be, and still be 60% as tough. Which is enough for most content for them to just slot one heal skill and just pewpewpew.
So, no. I respect your opinion, but disagree. Its not "dungeon design" issue. With ESO in particular, pretty much everything revolves around DPS as centric, and everything is balanced from that, at least from where I sit. Which is not "dungeon design."
Lets play hypothetical here. Lets say for a moment they made a very hard dungeon, where people actually had to CC, go group to group, that enemies hit hard enough that would make even a DPS think twice. Know what I would expect to happen? People would run it once, then leave group anytime they got it in the random group finder. How do I know? Because people already leave group if they get a dungeon that takes too long. It isn't dungeon design, its class balance, and perhaps on some peoples part, impatience and inconsideration for other people.
....this is getting tiresome.
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS DONE BY DESIGN. Everything had to be made, designed and implemented. Some ideas/mechanics allow for unforseen consequences to happen that have not made gameplay fun, but ruined it for many players.
IT ALL STARTS AND ENDS in the games design. ITs not the player base, its not mean speed runners, its not pugs vs premades. Asking people to change is a bandaid solution, the only real solution to solve the problems that we see in game must be done through better design.
I guess the issue here, or the disconnect is that I went to school for design and have been doing it professionally for over 30 years. Its a different mindset, a different perspective on life completely. We will never see eye to eye, becasue we have two competely different approaches to the problem.
EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD, is done by design."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes6 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a real tank , all I can say is I wish more people would give genuine tanking a try as it can be quite a bit of fun be it pve or pvp.
Just know we true tanks are out there !
PC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
The only way to prevent speed running in this MMO (and all other MMOs) is to remove trash mobs from dungeons and trials. Simple. There's a reason why they're called "trash mobs." They are useless enemies put in to artificially slow things down on the way to the boss, but all competent players have learned that the most efficient way to get to the next boss is to either ignore trash or cluster and burn trash. Even if they introduced stipulations (i.e. must kill all trash before boss will spawn), people would still speed through the adds to cluster them up and burn them down.
I would 100% be OK with removing trash from dungeons. Trash waves between bosses are completely uninteresting. It's the bosses that have the interesting mechanics, cool, flashy abilities, the desirable loot, etc.
Or they could, you know, actually make the trash mobs an actual threat. Dangerous. Not just speed bumps, but actually dangerous enough that pulling 2 or 3 groups of them could mean a wipe. Thats a viable option too. But I suspect it will be an unpopular one, due to the prevalence of "gogogogogo" crowd.
That would, indeed, be very unpopular -- unless the former "trash" mobs now also drop valuable loot. MMO dungeons will always primarily be about the balance between difficulty and reward. Sure, there are quests involved, but for most players at endgame, the whole point of running dungeons is to acquire loot (with or without a challenge). If I'm in a dungeon to farm a set, I frankly don't care about quest dialogue I've heard hundreds of times before. I want that loot, and that is all.
If I'm forced to slog through hard hitting arbitrary trash mob waves that don't drop anything worthwhile, all because Stops-And-Sniffs-Flowers the Argonian wants a leisurely stroll through his dungeon, then I'll simply stop farming dungeons and whoops, there goes another tank...2 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »
Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.
But this my problem. They never speed anything up, even on normal mode and base game vet mode. Both times recently actively slowing everyone else down.
Well, that is obviously not true yesterday I fake tanked a dungeon and did 90% of group dps + holding agro, this group would have cleared much slower with a tank in full tank setup.
the fake tanks people complain about are the 18k hp dps running no food, no armor buffs (so 8-12k resistances), no taunt, and the moment the boss focuses on them they start kiting, which pulls the boss and adds out of the aoes
This, right here, 100%. If you taunt and don't run in circles like chicken little when attacked, you're not a fake tank.
2 -
Ryori729✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »This is all just a variation on or consequence of a more basic problem:- Random dungeons have an enormous range of difficulties.
- Therefore, there is NO random group that would reliably find a random dungeon fun. Either the easier possibilities are so easy as to be tedious, or the harder possibilities are so hard as to be tedious.
That was well said. Its why I won't use the random queue for Vet even if we have 4. Happens that on my best characters we get base game dungeons. Then we move to our second tier characters and we get something actually tough.
I don't mind a fake tank or healer if they can take care of themselves. Had a friend talk about a "tank" that complained about the heals. She asked them if they could slot a taunt. They said no. That's a problem player. Forget that I'm not doing much, but you should take care of me. If you have a tank with 16K health, they aren't even buffed for DPS. I've had that a few times where the "tank" apparently had no food on.
Had a person yesterday take the time to Xbox message me that I was a bad healer. And how the whole group was carried by them. It was a base game dungeon on normal. Only person that died was them because they ran out of range in the one mechanic where you actually need to pay attention. Also claimed to be the only DPS - with their heavy attack - I didn't say build because they only heavy attacked - no other spells cast. I agree they likely did the most damage because they sprinted the whole way - and I had to heal them a lot. Guess they were too busy holding the trigger to notice.
My point being it has less to due with roles or how good of a player you are. In my view most of the problems we all are bringing up are personality issues. If you are high 2000s CP and you need a level 40 character to keep you alive, then I am not the bad player in that situation. That kind of player is unfortunately too common (well, first time I've gotten an Xbox message from one so that's new). They expect others to do something that they aren't doing themselves. If you sprint ahead and pull then you are your own tank and healer. If you queue as tank then at least try not to have the lowest health in the group - if you need a healer, then don't be the tank. If you don't know the mechanics, don't run ahead.
Will say that one again. I am still amazed at how many people I see run ahead and die... multiple times, on just trash. If you can't solo it slow down.
1 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
The only way to prevent speed running in this MMO (and all other MMOs) is to remove trash mobs from dungeons and trials. Simple. There's a reason why they're called "trash mobs." They are useless enemies put in to artificially slow things down on the way to the boss, but all competent players have learned that the most efficient way to get to the next boss is to either ignore trash or cluster and burn trash. Even if they introduced stipulations (i.e. must kill all trash before boss will spawn), people would still speed through the adds to cluster them up and burn them down.
I would 100% be OK with removing trash from dungeons. Trash waves between bosses are completely uninteresting. It's the bosses that have the interesting mechanics, cool, flashy abilities, the desirable loot, etc.
Or they could, you know, actually make the trash mobs an actual threat. Dangerous. Not just speed bumps, but actually dangerous enough that pulling 2 or 3 groups of them could mean a wipe. Thats a viable option too. But I suspect it will be an unpopular one, due to the prevalence of "gogogogogo" crowd.
That would, indeed, be very unpopular -- unless the former "trash" mobs now also drop valuable loot. MMO dungeons will always primarily be about the balance between difficulty and reward. Sure, there are quests involved, but for most players at endgame, the whole point of running dungeons is to acquire loot (with or without a challenge). If I'm in a dungeon to farm a set, I frankly don't care about quest dialogue I've heard hundreds of times before. I want that loot, and that is all.
If I'm forced to slog through hard hitting arbitrary trash mob waves that don't drop anything worthwhile, all because Stops-And-Sniffs-Flowers the Argonian wants a leisurely stroll through his dungeon, then I'll simply stop farming dungeons and whoops, there goes another tank...
Which shows me that you are part of the problem for some, when the opposite is true for you. You seem to have the opinion where those who enjoy group dynamics are the problem for you.
ESO cannot satisfy both groups of people. And you are free to stop farming dungeons. I doubt your personal involvement would have any significant impact any more than mine or any other single persons. If I am in a random dungeon, then frankly I don't care about people in a rush. I am there to have a good time, to enjoy the content, to learn mechanics, so that I may do it again with other people. And the more I encounter people such as yourself, the less I do randoms. So, whoops, there goes "another" tank too.
And I am not meaning any sort of malice or ill intent here. Only highlighting that different people will want different things. Neither side is right or better than another. But unless things change, then the tank shortage won't change either. Which to that I say "Thems the breaks. Go get Auri to speed tank for you. I won't do it." and so on.1 -
Neiska✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
I have to agree with Braffen. Wow doesn't prove anything. It isn't the first game to have tanks, or even dungeons. Even games without "dungeons" often have difficulty with the "durable" class.
But at least in other games there is a level of risk involved. The squishes here, are not that squishy at all. Not if you compare the DPS outputs. A DPS can do over 10 times the DPS a tank can be, and still be 60% as tough. Which is enough for most content for them to just slot one heal skill and just pewpewpew.
So, no. I respect your opinion, but disagree. Its not "dungeon design" issue. With ESO in particular, pretty much everything revolves around DPS as centric, and everything is balanced from that, at least from where I sit. Which is not "dungeon design."
Lets play hypothetical here. Lets say for a moment they made a very hard dungeon, where people actually had to CC, go group to group, that enemies hit hard enough that would make even a DPS think twice. Know what I would expect to happen? People would run it once, then leave group anytime they got it in the random group finder. How do I know? Because people already leave group if they get a dungeon that takes too long. It isn't dungeon design, its class balance, and perhaps on some peoples part, impatience and inconsideration for other people.
....this is getting tiresome.
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS DONE BY DESIGN. Everything had to be made, designed and implemented. Some ideas/mechanics allow for unforseen consequences to happen that have not made gameplay fun, but ruined it for many players.
IT ALL STARTS AND ENDS in the games design. ITs not the player base, its not mean speed runners, its not pugs vs premades. Asking people to change is a bandaid solution, the only real solution to solve the problems that we see in game must be done through better design.
I guess the issue here, or the disconnect is that I went to school for design and have been doing it professionally for over 30 years. Its a different mindset, a different perspective on life completely. We will never see eye to eye, becasue we have two competely different approaches to the problem.
EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD, is done by design.
I would argue that the game design isn't based around actual playability at all, but profit and forcing people to invest as much time as possible, everything else being secondary. And from my perspective, ESO can't satisfy both groups on the issue. So they try to semi-do it for both, which leaves everyone involved unhappy and so they each choose to play in their different corners with their respective groups of people.
That isn't "design." That is "cause and effect." Or are you stipulating that ESO set out to have things this way from the start? I suspect they have no intention of investing time and resources into fixing old issues like old dungeons, and will instead focus on "the new shiny" things, while fixing past mistakes with band-aid fixes. I wouldn't call that "game design" by any stretch of the imagination.0 -
Dax_Draconis✭✭✭✭I wonder how often the Devs play in random groups in their own game. If they aren't doing it, then they should for a while and then design the dungeons from those experiences.3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dax_Draconis wrote: »I wonder how often the Devs play in random groups in their own game. If they aren't doing it, then they should for a while and then design the dungeons from those experiences.
Before the devs stopped streaming it on Twitch, Rich Lambert used to do random vet streams multiple times a week where he'd pug 10+ back to back random vets.1 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fake Tanks are the well earned reward for lazy game design, one dimensional reward structure, years of power creep and thus incentivising/necessitating daily transmute crystal farm.
Ah, yes. And PvP. The simple unwillingness of the Devs to seperate PvP and PvE.Edited by Zodiarkslayer on March 15, 2024 11:39PMNo Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!2 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »PapaTankers wrote: »xclassgaming wrote: »Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.
Hey! Actual tank here.
They don't hurt my experiance nearly as much as bad dds or people that come in without knowledge of mechanics.
Well…if you are queued as tank then there won’t be a fake tank in your group. So yeah, it doesn’t bother you.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA0 -
GrizzlyTank✭✭✭When leveling alts i've been sure to stop fake-tanking once i hit the 45 range due to the risk of getting the unwanted high-end dungeons.0
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ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »
the "holding aggro" is the thing a lot of fake tanks cant/dont do, which is what people are mainly complaining about
if your "fake tanking" but you have a taunt, and can take enough dmg that your not running around the room like a chicken with your head cut off, then you are fine, theres nothing "wrong" per se with that kind of fake tanking IMO because your still fulfilling the role of tank properly
the fake tanks people complain about are the 18k hp dps running no food, no armor buffs (so 8-12k resistances), no taunt, and the moment the boss focuses on them they start kiting, which pulls the boss and adds out of the aoes
Agree, a "fake tank" with taunting and defensive capabilities should probably be called a DPS-style tank.
Maybe these "DPS-style tanks" mentioned above can release some builds for everyone's reference and learning, let's see how they combine skills and sets. If there are more "DPS-style tanks.", it may be able to solve the problem of real "fake tanks" (unable to taunt and resist BOSS) to a certain extent.
Edited by ZhuJiuyin on March 16, 2024 12:21PM"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.0 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭
✭VoidCommander wrote: »As a prolific fake tankers myself, here are my thoughts on this:
If someone is fake tanking, they need to be doing some incredible damage. In a typical pug group, I often deal 40-60% of the entire group's damage. This means we can breeze through most bosses on normal. I never fake tank dungeons on veteran because those usually will require a dedicated tank, although some of the older dungeons could still be fake tanked.
On that note, a fake tank who knows what they're doing can do most of the dungeons in the game. However, there are currently 3 dungeons I've experienced that are simply "unreliable" to fake tank due to the boss(es) having one shot mechanics that a DPS can't survive by blocking nor roll dodging. Forgive me as I don't recall any of the specific dungeons aside from March of Sacrifices, but I'd know them if I loaded in. After loading into one of these, I do leave because it is one of the few dungeons that I simply cannot fake tank on my own without relying on the healer and dps doing exceptional damage and/or being on point with timely revives.
Totally agree. Both Fake tank and low damage aspect is meaningless.
Fake tank must be super cannon. Otherwise I'll leave after the first failure at the last boss
to avoid quick leaving penalty. It's a 100% fair.
Because, we can't burn last boss by only damage work.
So, lowbie should not do fake tanking. If real healer abandon fake dude, then it's 100% fake's fault.Edited by AvalonRanger on March 23, 2025 2:00AMMy playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.0 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think fake tank threads belong in the PvP section. If it wasn't for the PvP, what purpose would circling around the same arguments for years on end serve?
The devs even implemented a solution and this is still being debated.1 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanks not being fun is hurting the game (I know some do enjoy it, but obviously not the majority if there are so few of them). Part of the issue to me is no aoe taunts like most other MMO's, I know they won't allow it as they just made Tormentor set irrelevant a few patches ago. But at the end of the day, this is just complaining to complain. ZoS isn't going to do anything about it.Edited by Orbital78 on March 23, 2025 1:24PM3 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Which is still by design, not accidental. In your example the games design can either facilitate making money, or gameplay. I would argue that both can happen simultaneously, as they are not mutually exlcusive. But if not done properly, then yes the outcome is as you described.
I would argue that the game design isn't based around actual playability at all, but profit and forcing people to invest as much time as possible, everything else being secondary.
And from my perspective, ESO can't satisfy both groups on the issue. So they try to semi-do it for both, which leaves everyone involved unhappy and so they each choose to play in their different corners with their respective groups of people.That isn't "design." That is "cause and effect." Or are you stipulating that ESO set out to have things this way from the start? I suspect they have no intention of investing time and resources into fixing old issues like old dungeons, and will instead focus on "the new shiny" things, while fixing past mistakes with band-aid fixes. I wouldn't call that "game design" by any stretch of the imagination.
But it's the design that led to that "cause and effect". A different design may not lead to that outcome. Brainstorming, group discussions, theorizing, study and or experience of similar games can all help to shape the design for the intended purpose. And sure, things always happen that were not intended, good or bad and are not inherently done by design, but are the result of the design (as a different design would/could procure a different outcome.)
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Ardriel✭✭✭✭Stop complaining about fake roles and play tanks or healers yourself. Problem solved.1 -
said no one ever✭✭✭✭Every dungeon I queued for today had a fake tank who left the moment he/she saw that it was a more difficult dungeon (i.e. Cauldron). This is really hurting the game. Unless all three remaining members have champion points in the high range, it just can't be completed and we've wasted our time and have a huge bill to pay for repairs. This isn't fair to the rest of us who aren't trying to cheat the system by queuing as a tank when we're not one.
I've asked if they can fix it so if someone who is not a tank queues as one the system will recognize that by their armor and health (or some other means) and refuse to allow them to queue as a tank, but I've never gotten a reply.
Something has to be done. This is ruining my ESO experience.
Another problem is not everyone really understands how to build a tank. I mean I've got it down to a science but just saying. There's more to it than taunting something. However with mats and such being so expensive, I can imagine it must be difficult for some of the new people to get at builds and afford researching different things.
What a mess.
Torugs pact, fortified brass, deaths wind. 5, 5, 2. Crusher and weakening enchants. Sword and board, ice staff. 4 impen, 4 fortified, armors. 4 health, 4 stamina enchants on armor. Either health or stamina jewels with Regen enchants? Pretty basic stuffEdited by said no one ever on March 23, 2025 10:15PM0 -
abkam✭✭✭Why do you even need a real tank? These days, all players do is skip everything and run straight to the boss. No more quests, no more mechanics, no more trash mobs, just the boss (Dungeons or trials)! And everyone says it's all okay: "Join a guild or make your own group."
Fake tanks? What about fake DPS, like PvP players in PvE trials? Or PvE players in PvP just to level up Barrier and War Horn? What about players who use HA builds but aren't allowed to join others because raid leaders prefer 2bar setups with lower DPS and less experience? What about all of that?
The game is not perfect, for sure, but guess what… you can join a guild or create your own group. The game is great, and players are generally very respectful. in-all-ways!
We don't need a tank because we can skip everything!
We don't need other classes because we have Arcanists.
We don't even need healers these days. Just skip, skip, parse!
EDIT:Unless we're going to do endgame content, then we only need 1-tank, 10-Arcanists, and 1-healer!
Edited by abkam on March 23, 2025 10:51PM1 -
ercknn✭✭✭I have a confession…
Every now and then I will tank a PUG on either Vet or Nm.
If the dps is sooooo BAD and I mean like it will take 20 mins to kill 1 boss….then I will actually whip out my armor assistant npc (play on PS) and switch to a dps build with a taunt.
Granted no HM but at least we can finish the dungeon in less than an hour that way!3 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭this 2 year as a real tank alway help pug and guild do vet/hm dungreon
when i port in dungreon and see dps is ha build or use pvp skill and group dps only 50k , i know i only feel pain in next 30min~2 hour
i can do good dps ,but i never swap be fake tank,i know pug player not like me have patience for low dps
and we really not a real tank in rnd(and some vet)
i alway think this it a main reason why we have a fake tank rng meta0 -
RedTalon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I stopped doing q's lately has tanks. normally get paired with a good healer but me and the healer need to carry the dps more often then not, and a lot of dps are trigger happy lately1 -
frogthroat✭✭✭✭LadyLavina wrote: »As a real tank , all I can say is I wish more people would give genuine tanking a try as it can be quite a bit of fun be it pve or pvp.
I've had tank builds mainly for set item farming in normal dungeons. But recently I did make actual proper tank builds and have been doing some harder content with them and I got to say, a lot more active and demanding than DD. It is actually pretty fun. And compared to DD, you actually have to know mechanics and press buttons.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.
Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.
A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.
Of course this is exactly the issue.
If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.
Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.
No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.
What's up for debate is not for you to decide.
The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.
Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.
You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.
and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.
Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/
Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/
In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.
So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.
I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.
The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.
Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.
I have to agree with Braffen. Wow doesn't prove anything. It isn't the first game to have tanks, or even dungeons. Even games without "dungeons" often have difficulty with the "durable" class.
But at least in other games there is a level of risk involved. The squishes here, are not that squishy at all. Not if you compare the DPS outputs. A DPS can do over 10 times the DPS a tank can be, and still be 60% as tough. Which is enough for most content for them to just slot one heal skill and just pewpewpew.
So, no. I respect your opinion, but disagree. Its not "dungeon design" issue. With ESO in particular, pretty much everything revolves around DPS as centric, and everything is balanced from that, at least from where I sit. Which is not "dungeon design."
Lets play hypothetical here. Lets say for a moment they made a very hard dungeon, where people actually had to CC, go group to group, that enemies hit hard enough that would make even a DPS think twice. Know what I would expect to happen? People would run it once, then leave group anytime they got it in the random group finder. How do I know? Because people already leave group if they get a dungeon that takes too long. It isn't dungeon design, its class balance, and perhaps on some peoples part, impatience and inconsideration for other people.
....this is getting tiresome.
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS DONE BY DESIGN. Everything had to be made, designed and implemented. Some ideas/mechanics allow for unforseen consequences to happen that have not made gameplay fun, but ruined it for many players.
IT ALL STARTS AND ENDS in the games design. ITs not the player base, its not mean speed runners, its not pugs vs premades. Asking people to change is a bandaid solution, the only real solution to solve the problems that we see in game must be done through better design.
I guess the issue here, or the disconnect is that I went to school for design and have been doing it professionally for over 30 years. Its a different mindset, a different perspective on life completely. We will never see eye to eye, becasue we have two competely different approaches to the problem.
EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD, is done by design.
you are correct. This is really just a highlight of the limits of the design namely linear dungeons and weak groupfinder. Fake tanks are ruining anything. The design is just obsolete and the cracks are showing.Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard1 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭I stopped doing q's lately has tanks. normally get paired with a good healer but me and the healer need to carry the dps more often then not, and a lot of dps are trigger happy lately
A lot of the time those rushing dps aren't even able to carry the energy they are trying to give off. Face rush into the next pack before the tank is ready and just get stomped, no blocking, no roll dodging, just face planting. If they scatter the mobs all over the place I just let them handle most of it. The tank shouldn't need to taunt more than the big boys anyways.
I rarely tank, vet Scion of Ithelia queues as a dps can be slower when I specifically queue, so I hoped on my old Imperial DK tank. When I run into those sorts of people, I know the run is going to be pain. I just nope out and hop back on my Sorc that can dps or healer dps. I think I have pretty much cleared all dungeon hardmodes on that heavy attack sorc now, and it is just much more fun. It requires more attention but I can keep the whole group alive for the most part healing those dungeons non-hm.
This is only veteran content though, normals any semi-competent player can tank those. Light, or medium armor really. Some low level players would struggle more to carry the bads, but one decent player can usually solo any non-veteran dungeon for the most part. If they have a little support than it is just (usually) easier and quicker than solo. When Shipwrights Regret came out I was soloing that to fill out my turning tide stickers. It was challenging soloing on a dps (before my playstyle was buffed even) but was good practice to survive when a tank dies or things go sideways.Edited by Orbital78 on March 24, 2025 10:59AM0 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭I play all 3 roles. Have 7 tanks, 7 healers on each class and several dd's.
When it comes to fake roles nothing is as abysmal as fake dd.
Doesn't matter if you are tank or healer you see all your effort to support the group is void because enemy health bars just don't go down.
And I am not talking about new players. I am talking about 1900cp light attack spammers on repeat.
It takes ages to complete an easy dungeon, certainly impossible when it comes to hard ones.
I am usually more optimistic if I see a dps with 350 cp. Most of them are new and open to take advice so they can learn what to do.2 -
Hamiltonmath✭✭✭If it's normal, there is almost zero reason for a tank or a healer. When I would queue for a normal as a tank, I almost always get group dps of 20k and a healer wearing mismatched sets, and i end up LITERALLY bashing and blockading 30% of the damage. On normal, when I would queue as a dps, it would take 10 minutes and I get a tank that can't apparently even hold the block button and then they get into a fight with the healer and it's a mess. The only time I have had success is when I go on my dps, fake queue as a tank (with a taunt in my flex spot) and speed run it. Even veteran base game dungeons don't need a professional tank (with the exception of COH2, which I will NOT fake tank because I cannot hold 4 wraiths long enough without dying). But, yet again, we have these threads that are like: "This random normal isn't what I wanted, so I'm upset!"
I would propose to you that "fake tanks" actually make the queue much faster, as groupings of dps and healers get in to a dungeon faster.3