Fake Tanks are hurting the game

Trier_Sero

Yes, it's been getting really bad recently. They even have audacity to call me speedrunner for skipping few trash pulls in nICP or optional bosses in nBC1!!! Well, you speedran the queue and ruined the experience for everyone in the first place!!!

AvalonRanger

just use group finder.

Hapexamendios

If your going to line up for a dungeon geared for dps, at least have a taunt and stay for the dungeon. No taunt means the boss is running free making AOEs useless hampering dps and making it take longer. If you leave the dungeon, you're forcing the remaining members to requeue for another tank. Either way you're being a nuisance. Don't like that, you can use the group finder yourself.

cuddles_with_wroble

People fake tank Bcs normal is so easy it doesn’t require a real tank and we don’t wanna 40 minutes in Que

Amottica

Kazren wrote: »

Every dungeon I queued for today had a fake tank who left the moment he/she saw that it was a more difficult dungeon (i.e. Cauldron). .

It is not unusual for a player to leave when they get a difficult dungeon regardless of their role. Even with a real tank they may have been looking for a quick run and have no problem swapping to a different character and queueing again.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

It is not unusual for a player to leave when they get a difficult dungeon regardless of their role.

In my experience with queue, that hasn't been the case. When it comes to leaving immediately, it's usually a tank. Sometimes the healer. It's not that DPS don't leave, but compared to the other two roles, it is more unusual. DPS typically leave after the first boss or pull, if they're going to leave.

Which makes sense since if they queued DPS, they already have been waiting quite a while.

Vulkunne

KS_Amt38 wrote: »

Last time I queued up as a Tank and ended up tanking and doing 50% of group damage. I wasted so much time in that very simple 2-3 minute dungeon...

There is literally no reason to que up as a real tank for a normal or base game vet dungeon for me.

This too ^

Vulkunne

Kazren wrote: »

Every dungeon I queued for today had a fake tank who left the moment he/she saw that it was a more difficult dungeon (i.e. Cauldron). This is really hurting the game. Unless all three remaining members have champion points in the high range, it just can't be completed and we've wasted our time and have a huge bill to pay for repairs. This isn't fair to the rest of us who aren't trying to cheat the system by queuing as a tank when we're not one.
I've asked if they can fix it so if someone who is not a tank queues as one the system will recognize that by their armor and health (or some other means) and refuse to allow them to queue as a tank, but I've never gotten a reply.
Something has to be done. This is ruining my ESO experience.

Another problem is not everyone really understands how to build a tank. I mean I've got it down to a science but just saying. There's more to it than taunting something. However with mats and such being so expensive, I can imagine it must be difficult for some of the new people to get at builds and afford researching different things.

What a mess.

thorwyn

I really don't understand why these posts keep popping up over and over. This entire fake role situation is THE reason why ZOS created the extended group finder. Everyone was so hyped about this, telling the world how you guys would rock the stage once it's there because you finally got a way to avoid all the fake roles, speedrunnners, gate keepers, elitists and what not.
Now it's there and you folks STILL don't use it. Instead, you keep complaining about fake tanks in random groups. If you want your group tailored to your expectations, use that feature! It's been implemented for a reason!

Sarannah

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks. So now ZOS is in a hard spot because a lot of what is left is fake tanks.

Actually, fake tanks/speedrunners ruined the queue for real tanks by not allowing dps players to learn their role. When I am tanking, I quickly see players improve instead of running around like headless chickens. Fake roles are the problem for what they claim they are solving!

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Can't believe players are actually defending fake roles/speedrunners! These fake role/speedrunner players are extremely toxic, and are HURTING the queue times. In my opinion they also have no right to any of the end-of-dungeon rewards they are receiving.

This is one of the major issues with ESO right now, and it needs fixing ASAP.

Personally I would want to see a +3 companions random dungeon queue with the same rewards as a random has now. This way fake role/speedrunner players can avoid regular players, and regular players can avoid fake roles/speedrunners. This would also include storymode, as players would then be able to go as slow/fast as they want. Without anyone to rush, nor stop, nor be toxic about it.

Fake roles/speedrunner players are hurting the dungeon queue in various ways:
1: Regular players stop(ped) queueing due to toxic behaviour(fake role/speedrunner). (Note: This includes me.)
2: Players are unable to learn any role, causing low dps/bad tanks/bad healers. Things which fake roles claim to want to avoid, they are the cause of.
3: Players not already invested in the game will most likely quit after a toxic experience.
4: Fake roles/speedrunners cause double/triple queue's. Because when a dungeon fails or they get a DLC, they leave. Leaving three others with ANOTHER queue, after already waiting out the longer queue. This is NOT helping the queue, as these types of players try to claim! (Better to have a twice as long queue resulting in a high completion rate and good experience)
5: "Play the way you want" is ESO's motto but is that worth all the bad/toxic experiences players are getting now, just because some veteran players do not care about others and skip the queue for their precious transmutes? Play the way you want does not work in an MMO/multiplayer environment.
6: Fake roles/speedrunners often slow down the dungeon run!
7: There's probably more reasons, but I have already had this discussion too often before. Too tired to have it again, [snip]

But players defending these types of players(fake roles/speedrunners) is one of the worst things to do, as this issue is severely hurting the game! Your precious transmutes aren't worth anything if the game sinks and/or goes offline!

Once again you are trying to change this game's dungeons into a "single player experience".

You're really asking for recieving 10 transmutes for semi-soloing FG 1, while others are recieving 5 transmutes for vma?

That must not and won't happen.

If you really want to improve rnd, vote for options to run with/without tank/healer. It's as easy as adding a button to the queues, allowing for 4-DD-runs if checked. Won't raise the amount of tanks of course (that's impossible in rnd without more serious changes difficulty-wise), but most people would probably check that box, raising the chances for those looking for a tank to actually get one.

There is also the possibility of using group finder or playing with guildies/friends. Why don't you ever talk about those options?

You claim I am trying to change running dungeons into a single player experience, but you couldn't be more wrong. I want dungeons to be ran as an actual group, instead of one player dragging three players behind them and impacting them negatively either by fake role-ing or speedrunning. That is a single player experience as you called it, because those players are not there for the group experience. (This is also why I feel they do not deserve those rewards.)

The reason I do not mention guilds/friends is because we are talking about the random dungeonfinder queue, meaning this is a pug and accessible to new players. This mode should support solo players queueing to end up in a group willing to do the dungeon. "Willing to do the dungeon" is not fake role/speedrun for the rewards. That is not groupplay!

Hate it as you will, but a +three companion random dungeon queue with transmute rewards as they are now, would solve all the dungeonfinder problems for all types of players. Not sure why you are against this, as this also is a good thing for fake roles/speedrunner players due to no longer running the risk of getting kicked or having to wait for other players. At the same time this would only leave players who actually want the grouping experience in the random dungeonfinder queue, so the players that want to be there would be there! (You speak about FG1, but I am talking "random dungeonfinder queue". So players with +3 companions wouldn't be able to spam FG1. As they would be bound by the dungeonfinder rules.)

Another solve would be to make groups larger, to incorporate 5 or 6 players. And allow either 3 or 4 dps per group. This would solve "fake dps"(hate that term) and at the same time shortens dps queue's. And would also allow ZOS to enforce roles, as the fake role/speedrunner players can then no longer hide behind "but the queue is much shorter because of us".

I'm all for ANY option to really stop fake roles/speedrunners. But not for options that would remove the traditional MMO roles for grouping. Players need to be able to learn a role. Your idea to have a 4 dps queue, I would be fine with that. But only if the queue that already exists now remains the same, and dungeons aren't changed/altered for these players. Why aren't these fake role/speedrunner players using the groupfinder to find likeminded players? Instead they specifically choose to negatively impact three others, over and over and over, every time they fake role/speedrun(which some players do many many times a day).

thorwyn wrote: »

I really don't understand why these posts keep popping up over and over. This entire fake role situation is THE reasons why ZOS created the extended group finder. Everyone was so hyped about this, telling the world how you guys would rock the stage once it's there because you finally got a way to avoid all the fake roles, speedrunnners, gate keepers, elitists and what not.
Now it's there and you folks STILL don't use it. Instead, you keep complaining about fake tanks in random groups. If you want your group tailored to your expectations, use that feature! It's been implemented for a reason!

You have that backwards! The dungeonfinder has defined roles, so players expect that of a random group. This also allows players to learn a role. It is actually those who fake role/speedrun which should be using the groupfinder, as they are not using the roles used for randoms in the dungeonfinder. But they do not because that takes a few seconds longer. Which is the entire problem to begin with, players unfairly skipping the line to get the daily dungeonrewards. These players choose to impact three other players, when they have the choice not too. Which is absurd ZOS allows this, as this behaviour is very toxic!

That is also the reason why these threads keep popping up. Players do not want to play with players who are toxic and willingly choose to be toxic towards others. And players do not want negative experiences in the random dungeonfinder.

Edit: ZOS does not seem to understand/grasp the real issue with the random dungeonfinder.

[edited to remove quote]

thorwyn

You have that backwards! The dungeonfinder has defined roles, so players expect that of a random group.

No, it's not backwards. If you queue up for a dungeon with certain expectations, YOU are supposed to either make sure that the group is in line with your expectations, or you accept the chance to get into a group with people who might have different expectations. The extended group finder gives you all the tools you need to avoid that conflict. It's not the fake rolers or speedrunners that are complaining about PUGs.

This also allows players to learn a role.

Do roles magically disappear once you use the extended group finder? They can learn their roles there just as well.

It is actually those who fake role/speedrun which should be using the groupfinder, as they are not using the roles used for randoms in the dungeonfinder.

No, beacuse like I said above, those people are not the ones that are complaining about the status quo. Those people are not the ones that were asking for an extended group finder. This tool was introduced to make life easier for people like you, who are unable to deal with the idea that "play how you want" includes everyone, not just you.

ZhuJiuyin

Fake DPS is one of the reasons why fake tanks become more.
When I participated in a random V-Dungeon as a tank, I hated to see DPS holding their toy bows there to shoot his poor toothpick in the boss.
When a battle is delayed to more than 5-10 minutes because of low damage, it is difficult to blame the tank & Healer to work hard to cause more damage in various ways.

Neiska

While I think comparing ESO to other MMOs is a bit apples to oranges, I do think that perhaps the "squishies" are not "squishy enough." If a pure DPS with minimal self-sustain/healing can sprint group to group blasting them all without any real threat, and the only thing a tank is needed for is bosses, then I would say that either the enemies don't do enough damage, or the squishes are too durable for the amount of DPS they put out, or perhaps a bit of both.

But it also really depends on context too. Do we/ESO "want" normal dungeons to be harder? Do they need to be? Or are they meant to be training wheels for harder content?

I think what is also important is people should clarify on the activity in question. I don't think anyone is overly troubled by someone learning to tank in spendleclutch 1. But I won't waste my time doing veteran dungeons with a fake DPS or healer either.

I also want to say that some level of sustain is important for DPS solo play. So the deeper question might be where do we want dungeon mobs to measure against overland? If it was up to me, dungeon mobs would be a bit harder, but that's just my personal musings.

Another thing to keep in mind is the bonus transmute crystals. It is possible someone with many alts might do several "bonus runs" on many characters in order to get as many crystals as possible as fast as possible. Either adding other sources of crystals or re-balancing the daily bonus against other things might also make fake-cues not for just tanks but other roles as well less prevalent.

Lastly, as others mentioned before, many tank mains refuse to use the dungeon finder at all, for a number of reasons. As I do harder and harder content with my tanks I use the random finder less and less. The attitude and entitlement for one, the speed-running from mob to mob is another, the refusal to explain fight mechanics for new or returning people, refusing to stop for questers and chests, etc.

I do want to add it isn't all bad either. I have made some friends doing random dungys, mostly by me asking at the end of the run if people need X sets from my drops, like healing or dps stuff. And the other thing I have noticed is the more difficult the content, the more random people are willing to "stick with it" when it gets bumpy. Its the lower tier dungeons where people leave at the drop of a hat at the slightest inconvenience.

Just my thoughts and observations as someone who has recently returned to playing and leveled from 10-50 pretty much by doing nonstop dungeons on 2 tanks.

Neiska

MJallday wrote: »

Learn to play issue. You don’t need a tank for any of the dungeons, 4 dds and you burn through all mechs

With respect, how do you expect new players or people who are learning to tank to do so when the constant message is "you dont need tanks!" and then only to find a shortage of them in higher content? I am not trying to throw shade here, but while you are correct in that 4 dps "can" just burn through lower level content, doing so does impact other people. Personally, I go by play your way. If you want to get 4 dps and zerg a dungeon, then go for it. To me the issue arises when the game throws 4 random people together who want to play differently. In a random if I see some high CP person run off, I let them run off. If they pull it, figure they can handle it. And if they can't, then it's not my fault.

So, while I agree with your point that tanks aren't NEEDED in a lot of content, I disagree with "learn to play." How are new tanks supposed to learn to play, when such groups don't let them learn? Food for thought.

Neiska

It's not the fake rolers or speedrunners that are complaining about PUGs.

Those two need not be exclusive. People can be both of those things. And I would like to ask what is your source for this opinion? I see complaints from speedrunners and fake role's quite regularly. Just last night had a speed-runner fake role DPS call the healer fake, when the healer is a friend of mine and I quite regularly do content with, and we speak on voice chat when running them. The healer wasn't bad, the complainer was just standing in the fire, and refused to move. And my healer friend doesn't heal people who don't move out of the giant red glowing thing on the floor.

Another recent dungeon a speedrunner sprinted ahead, aggroing 3-4 groups, and promptly went splat. Then got rather loud in group chat, when again, the other DPS, Healer, and I all knew each other. And no, we didn't rez him either.

Just pointing out that the "play your way" goes both ways too. Sure, you can do your thing in a dungeon, as can anyone else. But that doesn't mean the other people have to support it either. And while I have never kicked anyone from a group yet, I have had a few leave in a huff because my friends and I refused to placate their style. But that's all right, we still finished the dungeon, and got an immediate new cue, so there is that.

thorwyn

And I would like to ask what is your source for this opinion? I see complaints from speedrunners and fake role's quite regularly.

I'm talking about threads on the forum and reddit etc. Threads like this are all over the place and have been for years. I never heard someone complain about people queueing up with the right role. So I guess it's safe to say that one side is more aggravated by fake roles than the other way round.

Just pointing out that the "play your way" goes both ways too.

Correct. That was the point I was trying to make. Because many people are playing the "play how you want" card when they are defending their bow/bow LA only playstyle and especially when someone is offering them advice on how to improve. I think it's only fair to remind them that this is not a one-way street.

Sure, you can do your thing in a dungeon, as can anyone else. But that doesn't mean the other people have to support it either.

I never said anything contrary to this. If you are in a group and run into a fake tank and if the group decides that they don't want to deal with that, then by all means kick him. That's what the kickvote option is made for. But that does not change the fact that you can not expect anything from a random group. So IF you have expectations from a dungeon group, I would suggest to use the extended group finder, because that's the way where you can exactly state what you want. Fast, slow, quest, learning, farming... whatever it is, this is where you can say it before even starting the dungeon, saving you a lot of potential frustration.
However, if you decide to keep using the regular group finder, you should not complain about fake roles, random players not waiting for everyone to read all the books and dialogues, waiting for anyone to lockpick every chest, waiting for everyone to finish admiring the architecture and explain mechanics. It's cool when it happens, but you it's not obligatory. Your play time is as valuable as theirs.

SolarRune

Those saying the group finder fixes the issue are mistaken - all that happens is that people still come in under fake roles or worse - come in on a fake role and then change once in group.

All the group finder has done is kill off craglorn as a reliable zone to pick up players if you are looking to fill things.

SolarRune

Neiska wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

So, while I agree with your point that tanks aren't NEEDED in a lot of content, I disagree with "learn to play." How are new tanks supposed to learn to play, when such groups don't let them learn? Food for thought.

Exactly the point I have made before, as a community we can't complain about a lack of good tanks or healers if new players can't learn how those roles work by trying in normal dungeons. This is the biggest problem with fake roles - you are denying others the chance to learn their roles - faking any role is just a selfish way to play the game that harms the wider player base.

Aurielle

I have an excellent case in point for why "real" tanks do not PUG RNDs.

Queued in for my first of seven RNDs on one of my hybrid DPS tanks (i.e. DD with taunt and pull/immobilize skills). Darkshade Caverns 1, easy peasy. As soon as the dungeon starts, someone loudly declares in group chat that they are there for sticker book completion and XP, and insists no one should rush ahead. Ah, it's going to be one of THESE runs, I think to myself. Most people run RNDs for the transmutes, but no, THIS person was going to dictate how the dungeon would proceed for everyone.

Anyway, you know the first pull of adds in DC1? And how standard strategy is to pull adds from the area on the left to the area on the right and fight both two groups together? I did this, of course. And the loud individual stubbornly stayed in the first area and re-aggroed the group of adds I had already aggroed. So I singlehandedly take care of the pack I dragged over in a few seconds and move on to deal with the kwama scribs. They, too, melt in seconds. I kindly proceed to the first optional boss (which I didn't have to do, but this is now a "sticker book" run, so whatever, I'll oblige), and loudmouth (still in the first trash pull area) tells me off for "ignoring" their request to not rush.

Like... I had killed every single group of adds encountered up until that point, with the exception of the first group that the loudmouth had decided to re-aggro. "Rushing" means you skip past every single trash group and run directly to the boss. I absolutely did not do this. Grouping and clustering trash mobs to burn them down is not "rushing" -- it's called tanking!

So I slowed waaaay down... And was still doing 70% of the group's overall DPS. Loudmouth takes it upon themselves to stop after the second boss and give unasked for pointers to one of the other DPS while I move on to deal with the next group of adds. I'm waiting at the next boss (again, after singlehandedly taking care of all the trash), and the one-way conversation is still going... I ask them to type less and follow tank, and they snottily inform me I can leave.

I thought quite seriously about dropping the group and leaving them with a long queue and no tank, because dealing with toxicity first thing in the morning isn't entirely pleasant. But I stuck it out (again, doing 65%-70% of the DPS with every encounter).

If I had brought my full veteran dungeon tank spec into that RND, I think we'd still be in there. Or, rather, the three of them would still be in there -- I would have left after the first boss fight.

So yeah. This is why you get "fake tanks" in the group finder.

Daoin

please no more fake role posts, theres a group builder and finder now if they dont want to use it thats that i guess but please stop sending us from our random queues into thier pledges not only is it totally boring when doing randoms across characters but now its getting to become annoying too

alternatelder

I wish people would stop using "fake dps" to defend the fake tank/heal trolls. There is no fake dps, just bad dps! Fake tank and heals are the reason I rarely even run dungeons anymore.

Grega

There’s a fake tank and a bad player.

Every fake tank I encountered ever, slotted a taunt and we were fine. Myself included.

Every bad player - who was also a fake tank - well its experience all the “fake role posts” describe.

That applies to fake healer and fake dps too. If you have a problem with them, it’s not cause they are fake. It’s because they are a bad player who queued for something they can’t do yet or simply wanted to get carried.

Daoin

i also wish people would stop discussing this year in and year out with all the same opinions to look at all the time and just wait patiently for something to be done about it or work around it instead of empowering those that do it on purpose by watching people squabble over it knowing nothing can be done anytime soon. i would personally prefer to be in group with dd's healers and tanks learning the roles but playing the actual roles than any level of elite fake poser

ShatteredRose6

Hello iam a real tank who ques vet pledges and rvd everyday, the amount of fake healers I get make me want to stop queing all together, iam perfectly fine with bad dps(i.e,fake dps ) unless group dmg is 25k under when iam doin a sax wm tremorscale colosus on boss and keeping 80% min uptime on minor brittle. Which again happens only 10% of groups which I leave, I que for vet pledges and rvd too on my dps, iam perfectly fine doin up to 80% of dps. More then that I leave group if it's dlc dungeon. Again I encounter too many fake tanks and healers and still do 60-80% of dps.People like us want to help actual new players and midgame players who are solo/learning.but we can't anymore due to high price of tri pots and even spell pots/weapon pots which we have to spam cuz of fake tank/heals which zos will never fix and won't even address on veteran dungeon finder. Yes I do group finder too and it's not a solution cuz it's just shifting the problem. I help out in group finder too, all of my trials Stickerbook(except so) and all dungeons(except new 2 dungeons) are filled long time ago. Zos needs to address fake tank/healer issue on vet so real supports and DPS can que again.

UGotBenched91

I miss before one Tamriel when beginner dungeons had some challenge to them. Dont think it was as big of an issue then.

Gray_howling_parrot

Kazren wrote: »

Every dungeon I queued for today had a fake tank who left the moment he/she saw that it was a more difficult dungeon (i.e. Cauldron). This is really hurting the game. Unless all three remaining members have champion points in the high range, it just can't be completed and we've wasted our time and have a huge bill to pay for repairs. This isn't fair to the rest of us who aren't trying to cheat the system by queuing as a tank when we're not one.
I've asked if they can fix it so if someone who is not a tank queues as one the system will recognize that by their armor and health (or some other means) and refuse to allow them to queue as a tank, but I've never gotten a reply.
Something has to be done. This is ruining my ESO experience.

Fake tanks are a problem due to a lack of rewards for veteran content (same transmute crystal reward & XP reward for random norm or random vet), and a lack of reliable & fun ways to earn them daily. You can do ToT and PVP - but those are 2 of my least favorite things to do in ESO. If you could, for instance, do zone dailies, get some with zone quests, etc., I don't think we'd see this problem as much.

Also - more ways to get transmutes would need to coincide with lifting the crystal cap, which frankly is silly to have in the first place.

Gray_howling_parrot

Also - coming from someone that plays all 3 roles frequently - if you are a tank or a healer, you do pretty much no DPS at all. So when you join a group and see that, as the tank, you are doing 30-35% of the group's DPS, this doesn't make you want to tank. The game has a big problem of not teaching players about how to effectively engage with the combat system and that needs to change.

In virtually every other MMO, tanks do reliable damage and it feels good tanking. A single taunt system mixed with being basically a combat dummy for enemies and a buff bot for your group and doing <10k dps doesn't feel good by itself - mix this with players role playing as a carpet or doing the same DPS as you and you'll quickly not want to tank.

Braffin

@Sarannah you keep saying your suggestion helps anybody, nonetheless that's not true:

1) Newer players doesn't own 3 levelled and equipped companions but need story dungeons the most. In fact only a fraction of players is utilizing companions. Most of them are veterans with hundreds to thousands of hours in this game.
2) You didn't express yourself at all regarding the devaluation of transmutes and all other means of gaining them.
3) Helping groups to play dungeons together in a fun way won't be achieved by giving players in need of learning group play a possibility to circumvent groups without tradeoff.

The only real profiteers are once again the soloists, which would earn every "precious shiny" while neglecting and agitating against all mmo-parts of eso.

If zos even considers this, they should shorten the process and shut the game down for good. No need for a "single player mmo".

On a sidenote: My view has nothing to do with defending speedrunners/fake roles (including fake dps). I'd never do that, as I don't exactly appreciate rude behaviour in dungeons. There are options tho (like the ones I mentioned and some more for sure), which are possibly solving the issue without destroying the group queues completely.

Daoin

also split the dlc from no dlc queues please, if people have to pay for them seperately let us queue too for those seperatley too, that would atleast be a tiny tiny step as though it looked like the overall enjoyment of dungeons in eso was atleast being considered and thought about day to day, then finally stop randoms and specifics mixing, especially now with group finder theres no need for it

FrancisCrawford

This is all just a variation on or consequence of a more basic problem:

• Random dungeons have an enormous range of difficulties.
• Therefore, there is NO random group that would reliably find a random dungeon fun. Either the easier possibilities are so easy as to be tedious, or the harder possibilities are so hard as to be tedious.