Fake Tanks are hurting the game

Kazren

Every dungeon I queued for today had a fake tank who left the moment he/she saw that it was a more difficult dungeon (i.e. Cauldron). This is really hurting the game. Unless all three remaining members have champion points in the high range, it just can't be completed and we've wasted our time and have a huge bill to pay for repairs. This isn't fair to the rest of us who aren't trying to cheat the system by queuing as a tank when we're not one.
I've asked if they can fix it so if someone who is not a tank queues as one the system will recognize that by their armor and health (or some other means) and refuse to allow them to queue as a tank, but I've never gotten a reply.
Something has to be done. This is ruining my ESO experience.

KS_Amt38

Last time I queued up as a Tank and ended up tanking and doing 50% of group damage. I wasted so much time in that very simple 2-3 minute dungeon...

There is literally no reason to que up as a real tank for a normal or base game vet dungeon for me.

Reginald_leBlem

Simply put, the system as a whole functions better BECAUSE of the fake tanks in the system, and attempting to penalize the fake tanks will result in a much worse overall experience for everyone.

The entire way zos handles tutorials, rolls, and dungeon que needs a complete overhaul before we address fake tanking at an individual level, and they have made no move to do so in 10 years.

Braffin

Why not using the newly added group finder, if you are looking for a specific experience?

This tool was implemented for exactly that purpose.

valenwood_vegan

If one's looking for a good "real" tank, try friends / guilds / group finder tool. At least the ones I know... are pretty much never going to queue for a random PuG in their full tank setup and risk being stuck there for an hour with subpar dps. They are in such high demand that they can always find a good group without resorting to the random finder.

Enforcing various specific requirements to queue for the tank role in the random finder isn't going to magically produce more tanks. If the requirements are easy to meet such as "must have taunt slotted to queue as tank"... well people can easily get around that. Slot a taunt and then unslot it... slot a taunt but not actually use it. If the requirements are extensive, such as must have sword and board or ice staff, taunt, 30k resistances, 40k health... well I promise you'll be right back here complaining about absurd queue times. There's not some easy solution.

Not saying I approve of the behavior some exhibit in the random finder, such as queuing for a role they have no intention of fulfilling; or dipping the moment a difficult dungeon comes up. But that's what random is.

And sometimes these alleged "fake" tanks can actually do the job just fine (depending on what one means by fake - I could for example slot a taunt and "tank" pretty much any normal dungeon on one of my dps... I solo them all the time after all... but judging by my health and choice of weapon I might be assumed to be fake. Don't fret, I'm not part of the "problem" though... I don't use the random queue.).

Anyway, we do have the tools to bypass the randomness if we want to use them.

Warhawke_80

To be fake tanks the people I have been connected with usually do a better job than the so called "Real Tanks"

The simple truth is the trinity is a outmoded and increasingly hated concept a fake tanks and fake healers got me through Coral Aerie they were awesome and ended up on my friends list.

Purity test suck for a plethora of reasons.

OsUfi

The only thing worse than fake tanks and healers is their inflated egos and ideas that they somehow speed up dungeons, when in fact, most fake tanks and healers have such appalling DPS and situational awareness they usually slow dungeons down.

Sarannah

Can't believe players are actually defending fake roles/speedrunners! These fake role/speedrunner players are extremely toxic, and are HURTING the queue times. In my opinion they also have no right to any of the end-of-dungeon rewards they are receiving.

This is one of the major issues with ESO right now, and it needs fixing ASAP.

Personally I would want to see a +3 companions random dungeon queue with the same rewards as a random has now. This way fake role/speedrunner players can avoid regular players, and regular players can avoid fake roles/speedrunners. This would also include storymode, as players would then be able to go as slow/fast as they want. Without anyone to rush, nor stop, nor be toxic about it.

Fake roles/speedrunner players are hurting the dungeon queue in various ways:
1: Regular players stop(ped) queueing due to toxic behaviour(fake role/speedrunner). (Note: This includes me.)
2: Players are unable to learn any role, causing low dps/bad tanks/bad healers. Things which fake roles claim to want to avoid, they are the cause of.
3: Players not already invested in the game will most likely quit after a toxic experience.
4: Fake roles/speedrunners cause double/triple queue's. Because when a dungeon fails or they get a DLC, they leave. Leaving three others with ANOTHER queue, after already waiting out the longer queue. This is NOT helping the queue, as these types of players try to claim! (Better to have a twice as long queue resulting in a high completion rate and good experience)
5: "Play the way you want" is ESO's motto but is that worth all the bad/toxic experiences players are getting now, just because some veteran players do not care about others and skip the queue for their precious transmutes? Play the way you want does not work in an MMO/multiplayer environment.
6: Fake roles/speedrunners often slow down the dungeon run!
7: There's probably more reasons, but I have already had this discussion too often before. Too tired to have it again, [snip]

But players defending these types of players(fake roles/speedrunners) is one of the worst things to do, as this issue is severely hurting the game! Your precious transmutes aren't worth anything if the game sinks and/or goes offline!

[edited for minor bashing]

spartaxoxo

Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks. So now ZOS is in a hard spot because a lot of what is left is fake tanks. There is definitely some steps they could take to fix the issue.

Braffin

Sarannah wrote: »

Can't believe players are actually defending fake roles/speedrunners! These fake role/speedrunner players are extremely toxic, and are HURTING the queue times. In my opinion they also have no right to any of the end-of-dungeon rewards they are receiving.

This is one of the major issues with ESO right now, and it needs fixing ASAP.

Personally I would want to see a +3 companions random dungeon queue with the same rewards as a random has now. This way fake role/speedrunner players can avoid regular players, and regular players can avoid fake roles/speedrunners. This would also include storymode, as players would then be able to go as slow/fast as they want. Without anyone to rush, nor stop, nor be toxic about it.

Fake roles/speedrunner players are hurting the dungeon queue in various ways:
1: Regular players stop(ped) queueing due to toxic behaviour(fake role/speedrunner). (Note: This includes me.)
2: Players are unable to learn any role, causing low dps/bad tanks/bad healers. Things which fake roles claim to want to avoid, they are the cause of.
3: Players not already invested in the game will most likely quit after a toxic experience.
4: Fake roles/speedrunners cause double/triple queue's. Because when a dungeon fails or they get a DLC, they leave. Leaving three others with ANOTHER queue, after already waiting out the longer queue. This is NOT helping the queue, as these types of players try to claim! (Better to have a twice as long queue resulting in a high completion rate and good experience)
5: "Play the way you want" is ESO's motto but is that worth all the bad/toxic experiences players are getting now, just because some veteran players do not care about others and skip the queue for their precious transmutes? Play the way you want does not work in an MMO/multiplayer environment.
6: Fake roles/speedrunners often slow down the dungeon run!
7: There's probably more reasons, but I have already had this discussion too often before. Too tired to have it again, [snip]

But players defending these types of players(fake roles/speedrunners) is one of the worst things to do, as this issue is severely hurting the game! Your precious transmutes aren't worth anything if the game sinks and/or goes offline!

Once again you are trying to change this game's dungeons into a "single player experience".

You're really asking for recieving 10 transmutes for semi-soloing FG 1, while others are recieving 5 transmutes for vma?

That must not and won't happen.

If you really want to improve rnd, vote for options to run with/without tank/healer. It's as easy as adding a button to the queues, allowing for 4-DD-runs if checked. Won't raise the amount of tanks of course (that's impossible in rnd without more serious changes difficulty-wise), but most people would probably check that box, raising the chances for those looking for a tank to actually get one.

There is also the possibility of using group finder or playing with guildies/friends. Why don't you ever talk about those options?

[edited to remove quote]

merpins

Last couple days, queueing as a DPS has taken only 1 minute, 2 minutes tops. No excuses here, just queue, start doing dailies, and the queue will be done by the time you're done with dailies (if not before).

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks. So now ZOS is in a hard spot because a lot of what is left is fake tanks. There is definitely some steps they could take to fix the issue.

I don't think so. Fake tanks and tanks are using the very same spot in group, so they aren't affecting each other directly.

Most tanks I know (and those talking about this topic in forums) avoid rnd because they are either not needed for normal dungeons (solid group) or are burdened with low dps (hello, bow-LA-spammers), which is making dungeoneering a slog. Thus most of them prefer to run their dungeons with people they know.

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks. So now ZOS is in a hard spot because a lot of what is left is fake tanks. There is definitely some steps they could take to fix the issue.

I don't think so. Fake tanks and tanks are using the very same spot in group, so they aren't affecting each other directly.

Most tanks I know (and those talking about this topic in forums) avoid rnd because they are either not needed for normal dungeons (solid group) or are burdened with low dps (hello, bow-LA-spammers), which is making dungeoneering a slog. Thus most of them prefer to run their dungeons with people they know.

"Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks."

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks. So now ZOS is in a hard spot because a lot of what is left is fake tanks. There is definitely some steps they could take to fix the issue.

I don't think so. Fake tanks and tanks are using the very same spot in group, so they aren't affecting each other directly.

Most tanks I know (and those talking about this topic in forums) avoid rnd because they are either not needed for normal dungeons (solid group) or are burdened with low dps (hello, bow-LA-spammers), which is making dungeoneering a slog. Thus most of them prefer to run their dungeons with people they know.

"Fake DPS ruined the queue for real tanks."

Sry, obviously I read something you didn't say. Apologies for that.

And of course I totally agree with you.

Araneae6537

Non-team players in group content ruin the game.

I queued on my real tank for a random normal (because I’m still leveling some skills so thought I shouldn’t yet queue random vet) and the “healer” announced that they were actually a DPS but would slot heals if needed. Fair enough, I thought, at least they’re being honest and offering to fill the role they queued for. But then they proceeded to run ahead, die, and basically make a mess for me and the other DPS to wade through. It could have been a quick run with a tank and three DPS but it was needlessly long and messy.

ElderSmitter

Coming from a Real Tank while we are discussing Fake Tanks can we raise the CP Threshold for DLC dungeons to keep extremely Low DPS out of them. It is Painful carrying a group through Dread Cellar only to rez them 20+ Times,,, Us Real Tanks Should Get Extra Carry Rewards lol...

Aurielle

Meh. I fake tank and fake heal aaaaall the time for RNDs, because I only run RNDs when I don’t have ESO plus. By “fake heal” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with Echoing Vigor and at least one class burst heal, and by “fake tank” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with a single taunt. I perform my role, no one dies, and it doesn’t take us half an hour to do a dungeon that can be done in less than ten minutes with one competent DPS.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to take a trials tank into nFG1 or nBC1 — especially considering that the average group damage might often be less than 20k DPS combined between both damage dealers. I’m just not doing it. Real tanks and healers are not required for normal base dungeons or normal WGT/ICP. Real tanks and real healers make base content a slog. The only time I take a real tank or healer into normal dungeons is when I’m running specific DLC dungeons.

supersonic_kitten

For once I want to queue as a real tank/healer for a random normal and only have to do the job my role requires me to, i.e. TANK or HEAL. What mostly happens is that I queue on a tank and than have to somehow carry the damage because none is being done to mobs (and if you know how much damage a real tank does then you get my frustration). Bonus points go to the DDs that can do no DPS and still rush ahead of me pulling everything in sight. Honestly it's such a pain.

Araneae6537

Aurielle wrote: »

Meh. I fake tank and fake heal aaaaall the time for RNDs, because I only run RNDs when I don’t have ESO plus. By “fake heal” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with Echoing Vigor and at least one class burst heal, and by “fake tank” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with a single taunt. I perform my role, no one dies, and it doesn’t take us half an hour to do a dungeon that can be done in less than ten minutes with one competent DPS.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to take a trials tank into nFG1 or nBC1 — especially considering that the average group damage might often be less than 20k DPS combined between both damage dealers. I’m just not doing it. Real tanks and healers are not required for normal base dungeons or normal WGT/ICP. Real tanks and real healers make base content a slog. The only time I take a real tank or healer into normal dungeons is when I’m running specific DLC dungeons.

I wouldn’t call that fake anything, personally. You’re doing what is required from the role for the content. How is being prepared to tank or heal content you’re not actually doing preferable??? Sure, you can tank a dungeon with a tank built for trials but that won’t be optimal for the role.

supersonic_kitten

Aurielle wrote: »

Real tanks and healers are not required for normal base dungeons or normal WGT/ICP. Real tanks and real healers make base content a slog. The only time I take a real tank or healer into normal dungeons is when I’m running specific DLC dungeons.

That is true, but then again, that is not the existence of supports in a normal group that slows it down, it's the absense of DPS. Surprisingly we are supposed to have 2 people responsible for that! Sometimes I just want to roll 15random normals in a row, and half my characters are supports and a couple of them are below CP level. Come on. Why am *I* always supposed to carrythe dungeon? (speaking at the universe)

moo_2021

solution: remove taunt and the tank role. No roles. Having healer or not depends on luck.


Taunt is silly anyway. Why attack first the enemy with highest defense?

Aurielle

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Meh. I fake tank and fake heal aaaaall the time for RNDs, because I only run RNDs when I don’t have ESO plus. By “fake heal” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with Echoing Vigor and at least one class burst heal, and by “fake tank” I mean I’m on a damage dealer with a single taunt. I perform my role, no one dies, and it doesn’t take us half an hour to do a dungeon that can be done in less than ten minutes with one competent DPS.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to take a trials tank into nFG1 or nBC1 — especially considering that the average group damage might often be less than 20k DPS combined between both damage dealers. I’m just not doing it. Real tanks and healers are not required for normal base dungeons or normal WGT/ICP. Real tanks and real healers make base content a slog. The only time I take a real tank or healer into normal dungeons is when I’m running specific DLC dungeons.

I wouldn’t call that fake anything, personally. You’re doing what is required from the role for the content. How is being prepared to tank or heal content you’re not actually doing preferable??? Sure, you can tank a dungeon with a tank built for trials but that won’t be optimal for the role.

Oh, there are people here who absolutely consider this “fake tanking.” If you pull groups of adds to burn them in a cluster (rather than fighting them one group at a time), you’re a fake tank. If you don’t have a sword and board equipped, you’re a fake tank. Doesn’t matter if you taunt the boss and take the bulk of the damage. You’re a SpEeD rUnNiNg FaKe TaNk DPS and you’re just the worst!

Aurielle

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Real tanks and healers are not required for normal base dungeons or normal WGT/ICP. Real tanks and real healers make base content a slog. The only time I take a real tank or healer into normal dungeons is when I’m running specific DLC dungeons.

That is true, but then again, that is not the existence of supports in a normal group that slows it down, it's the absense of DPS. Surprisingly we are supposed to have 2 people responsible for that! Sometimes I just want to roll 15random normals in a row, and half my characters are supports and a couple of them are below CP level. Come on. Why am *I* always supposed to carrythe dungeon? (speaking at the universe)

I mean, if you have four competent DPS (with one of the DDs keeping the boss still with a taunt), the dungeon proceeds far more efficiently than one with two competent DDs and a full healer and a full tank. Normal base game content is trivially easy, and absolutely does not require a healer or tank. Not anymore, not in a long time.

I agree that it shouldn’t have to fall on any one person to carry the dungeon, but because you don’t know what you’re going to get in a RND, it’s best to go in prepared to carry the group — and that means going in as a damage dealer who can throw some heals and/or taunt.

MJallday

Learn to play issue. You don’t need a tank for any of the dungeons, 4 dds and you burn through all mechs

Dax_Draconis

The game is in an unhealthy state if players need to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to run a dungeon as designed.
Especially for newer players. The guilds and group finder are barriers to entry that should not be the default for those players. Those options should be the default for the experienced and those wanting to run the dungeons differently than designed.

DigiAngel

Become that which you seek: Be the tank.

Neiska

As a Tank main, I get lots of fake healers and dps too. And I can't help but wonder how many people who complain about fake tanks, are also the kind of people who try to run through a dungeon at neck-break speed, won't wait for people doing quests, doing chests etc.

BlueRaven

I like how this thread has turned into;

“It’s not me, other people are the problem.”

Dungeons can be “fake tanked” because PvP made it so tanks are fairly weak.

Dungeons have “fake dps” (man I hate that phrase), because the combat system is pretty terrible. And the phrase “play as you want” needs an asterisk with it that says “unless you do end game content”.

Dungeons can be “fake healed” because once again, PvP has depowered them.

•••

If PvP was not a factor, tanks could be, well “tankier” and dungeon bosses could one shot fake tanks.

Same with heals, they could be sharper and dungeon mechanics can give out damage that would demand an actual healer. But PvP is a limiting factor.

Dps is a bit different. To say the combat system is polarizing would be an understatement. The majority of players are just not good at it, hence the large amount of “fake dps” complaints. But the top end is against changes, or even giving low end dps the gear to compensate for their lack of skill. So they are stuck with poor dps players and bemoan their existence, yet are unwilling to change anything that might improve those players dps which would make their own play experience better.

So we are stuck with what we have.

Galiferno

If you get rid of the fake tanks, it's not magically gonna bring back real tanks. Not when the average pug DPS is bad and refuses to get better. I've tanked most trifectas and I still wouldn't take my tank into a random normal because there's a substantial chance pugs are gonna have me in there for 5x longer than necessary.

LittlePinkDot

I love my arcanist tank! It's the first character that made me want to do dungeons at all.
For many years I've only been a PvPer.
Thanks ZoS for making Arcanist.

moderatelyfatman

I'm not that bothered by fake tanks in a random normal.
But it gets a bit much when doing vet Undaunted quests and getting one.