Fake Tanks are hurting the game

frogthroat

I play h/dd. I have noticed that recently even as a healer you need to queue. Not as long as with a dd but still. If you want to get into a dungeon quickly, tank is your fastest option. So I devised a cunning plan. I queue as a fake tank, but I put on some heavy gear like TT, use the PA set on back bar from my healer build, Archdruid monster, swap Master's Resto to Void Bash, add Pierce Armor, silver leash, etc. Then, in the dungeon I taunt the boss, debuff it, turn it away from the group and so on. And even after we finish the dungeon, no one even suspects that I am a fake tank. Mua-ha-ha-haa!

MotherOfMoss

Talking specifically about the random normal dungeon queue,

• Add option to limit DLC dungeons in some way
• Add option to queue with companions
• Add option to queue without heal or tank

I think the real beef is that there are a lot of different kinds of players in the random queue. Some of them (like me) don't like to rush headlong, particularly when they don't know the dungeon very well, and find speedrunners/fake tanks/git gud attitude/whatever unpleasant. Others want to get in and out quickly and resent having to "carry" lower-level players... who are just as entitled to their daily transmutes as everyone else if you ask me. I'd argue they're the ones really on the receiving end of the stick here, but that's just me.

And there's not much point arguing over the above because that's just how it is and it probably won't change Everyone equally hates standing in the queue for a long time, though, and everyone wants their transmutes. I avoided the random Q entirely for a long time after meeting a fantastically unkind individual in IC prison maybe about two years ago In an ideal situation, doing your daily rnd would not risk making you hate doing rnds! As people will be people, some changes to the queueing requirements would probably be the way to go.

...

P.S. The person above me sounds like a rly nice fake tank, thanks and well done I'd love to dungeon with you. I've only every Q'd as a fake tank/heal on below 50 characters because I'm scared of getting hated 0.0 I don't hate fake tanks though, so long as they don't bail at the first sign of trouble, or bark at me for being just a garden variety DD.

Necrotech_Master

frogthroat wrote: »

I play h/dd. I have noticed that recently even as a healer you need to queue. Not as long as with a dd but still. If you want to get into a dungeon quickly, tank is your fastest option. So I devised a cunning plan. I queue as a fake tank, but I put on some heavy gear like TT, use the PA set on back bar from my healer build, Archdruid monster, swap Master's Resto to Void Bash, add Pierce Armor, silver leash, etc. Then, in the dungeon I taunt the boss, debuff it, turn it away from the group and so on. And even after we finish the dungeon, no one even suspects that I am a fake tank. Mua-ha-ha-haa!

if your putting all of the usual tanking gear on, and taunting, then your absolutely not fake tanking lol

your doing what people *should* be doing if they want to queue as a tank when thats not their normal role lol

twistedodean14

I think the bigger issue comes down to the way the system is setup directly and indirectly.

1) ZOS needs to separate damage for pvp and pve. One of the main reasons for this is that it will limits them when it comes to balancing sets and also limits the types of sets they can create and or buff. A set over performing in pvp, shouldn't affect pve. How is this relevant to the fake tanking issue? Well, one of the main issues we face now is that tanking is not fun and does no damage. Damage tanks need to be an option available. If you're a damage tank and somehow you get dps that hit like wet noodles, then the tank can make up for that damage. The issue is that damage tanks in pvp is a no go. Though... some would argue that pvp already have that problem. But I digress.

2) AOE taunts. Alright. As a tank main, I never actually considered aoe taunts until the Infinite Archive (that's dead now). But honestly, the game needs AOE taunts because it will make tanking easier to get into. Make tanks more survivable and allow them more recourses to buff the group, survive better and or do damage. I think different types of aoe taunts might be a good look. For example, a straight line taunt (more range, but narrow), A Cone aoe taunt ( ok range, slightly wide width) and a circle aoe taunt (short range). To incentivize players to us traditional taunts, just offer more impactful buff that healers or dps can use. Yes, this will make tanking easier, but it will allow for more players to consider the role.

3) Tutorial that teaches the roles to all new players or long time players that just quest and want to do more.

4) Role requirements. I think role requirements should be enforced. Require a certain amount of health, armor and gear to que and enter the dungeon. I think this would be fine if the changes listed above takes place. Yes, a player can just pull out an armorer and change their setup. And that's fine. As a tank, if I que for a random and the dps is low (mainly because i have a bunch of new players, I change to damage tank setup or my VMA setup and get the clear. But I also offer advice to them on how to do better dps.

5) Tanking is too costly and feels unrewarding (Not for me I love tanking) for most players. it's bad enough to get blamed for literally everything. But the gear requirements are absurdly time consuming. And cost a ton of gold and transmutes. Some set require you to either go pvp a ton or spend millions of gold to attain. The role is not accessible. To get trials tags in guilds you usually need 11 different gear sets (normal, monster set and antiquity). All of which drop in vet dlc dungeons and trials. All of these sets benefit the DPS the most. And so, the skill level required to tank, taunt, group ads, manage resource, heal, not get one shot and do mechanics is high. As much as how I love tanking, its hard to do all of that in vet DLC trials and dungeons. And yes, when you get a clear it feels amazing especially if you're been progin. But guest what, after getting the complete most tanks don't want to go back in. The toxic behavior when it comes to these roles are a result of ZOS being complacent because the fact is that people are going to try to game the system even if it hurt others. And so, ZOS needs to properly address these issues.

I've been seeing a strange trend were ill que for a vet dungeon and ill get fake healers... I'm used to tanking without a healer (3 dps trifecta runs, with a few exceptions) but the other dps can't. And it causes chaos in dungeons and a lot of toxicity. This is not a community problem. It's a ZOS problem. And honestly I don't understand why they see these issues, and complaints but make no effort to address them. And yes, fake tanking and fake healing in a public run is unfair because of line skipping, fake tank leaving because of a dlc dungeon increases que times (I also think its selfish) and it discourages other players from considering the role.

RaikaNA

SalamanNZ wrote: »

There's too many bad players who don't know their roles and think they are anonymous behind their characters. I've seen fake everything. And these people all ruin the game.

Gotta say thanks to XP carries.... I honestly think ZOS should be nerfing Blackrose Prison Arena and Spellscar... including other places that have a high XP reward. Too many people paying players to carry them through BRP or Spellscar to fast level their toons from their current level up to level 50... by the time they reach 50... they don't have a clue how to use their class nor understand any of the skills that's available to their class. It's shameful.

Necrotech_Master

RaikaNA wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

There's too many bad players who don't know their roles and think they are anonymous behind their characters. I've seen fake everything. And these people all ruin the game.

Gotta say thanks to XP carries.... I honestly think ZOS should be nerfing Blackrose Prison Arena and Spellscar... including other places that have a high XP reward. Too many people paying players to carry them through BRP or Spellscar to fast level their toons from their current level up to level 50... by the time they reach 50... they don't have a clue how to use their class nor understand any of the skills that's available to their class. It's shameful.

i found the spellscar pretty inefficient because its not instanced, you end up getting less xp the more players in the area, especially if they are ungrouped

from what i noticed per kill xp goes down while grouped, but it balances out with you can kill things faster, but it doesnt make things spawn faster

Sarannah

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah

Yes, groupplay should indeed be groupplay. Playing with 3 companions instead is as "groupy" as ignoring other players in dungeons nowadays, or even less so. Doing a dungeon with companions is playing the game solo, same as in overland. Therefore transmutes are out of the question.

1) You want newer players to learn a role for groupplay? That's not possible while running around solo with 3 crutches but only by socializing with real people.
2) You are suggesting nothing more than making the easiest way to gain transmutes (this is also the reason for dysfunctional rnd queues) even more prominent by make them earnable solo. That's devaluation.
3) nobody is learning group play at their own pace by not practicing group play but hiding behind 3 crutches. It's laughable to even think so.

You want a solution? Fine, here you go:

Either reduce the amount of transmutes gained from rnd queue or remove them entirely over there and the speedrunning/fake tanking will stop. Will be the usual playground for fake dds then.

Problem solved (in the very same manner as with your suggestion), transmutes preserved and speedrunners have to learn vet (which can't be speeded by players, which are unable to slot a proper taunt).

1: Actually it is easier to learn with +3 companions. It is actually easier to get the basics down when you don't get yelled at by other players. It is easier to start without complete gearsets, or with incomplete skills. It is easier to see how much damage you need to be able to take, it is easier to learn the mechanics. All these things are easier to do with companions, and would allow players to take that knowledge in the random dungeonqueue for when they queue up to meet other players. You are right on more advanced play and completely learning roles though, that will always require a group(companions are always worse than players).

2: I really don't get your point here... you say they don't have value but can be devalued by fewer people doing runs with others and slower runs when solo? Weird take. Anyways, you don't seem to graps how a +3 companion queue with transmute rewards would divide the random dungeonqueue players into three groups: First the group that only wants the rewards at the end: Speedrunners and fake roles(who could do faster and more reliable/safer runs with companions). Second the group that wants to learn their role or is just starting out in the game and does not know how grouping works yet(ZOS could have base companions added for this function to work for new players), this group also includes players who want to learn new roles/those who try new builds and gear/those playing a new character. Third the last group would be those who want the actual grouping experience with other players, and who want to run dungeons to complete their role/min max build. This last group would become the new random dungeonqueue PUG group baseline, instead of fake role/speedrunners who are now the baseline.

3: Read my first point. You are assuming everyone is already geared up/skilled up/has their build done/has experience in their role when they queue for a random. While this is mostly true for veteran players, new players have to start from scratch(something they can't do now with fake role/speedrunners destroying the dungeonruns). Learning something from scratch takes time, and lots of negative experiences right now. All a +3 companions random dungeonqueue would do is take the toxicity out of random dungeons, and provide a fresh starting ground/training ground for inexperienced/new players to learn atleast the basics for what role/playstyle they are set out to achieve. After doing this, they have the choice to go run random dungeons with other players, or continue with the +3 companions random dungeonqueue(three companion runs will practically always be slower than runs with three other players, due to the companion's their low limitations).

Bolded your solution, didn't get it at first. **Edit: Get it now: ZOS can't remove transmutes from normals, or new/inexperienced players wouldn't be able to gear up.**
But I'm all for removing transmutes entirely though, the stickerbook now provides the barrier to create gear already. But I think transmutes are ZOS's incentive to players to keep running dungeons. Maybe ZOS could create another incentive to run random dungeons, that isn't as strictly required/sought after as transmutes are now.

Just to be clear, my suggestion to have a +3 companions random dungeonqueue with transmute rewards(regular), does not mean they should take away transmutes from the other random dungeon queue. Nor change the other random dungeonqueue in any other negative way.

MotherOfMoss wrote: »

Talking specifically about the random normal dungeon queue,

• Add option to limit DLC dungeons in some way
• Add option to queue with companions
• Add option to queue without heal or tank

Totally agree with these options, as this provides a solution to everyone. Maybe even add a midway solution: where random normals grant 10 transmutes, random normal DLC's 13 transmutes, random veteran 16 transmutes, random veteran DLC's 20 transmutes, random veteran HM 23 transmutes.

sarahthes

Y'all realize the whole reason we get transmutes for randoms is to incentivize people to run them to fill group finder runs for specific dungeons, right?

Braffin

sarahthes wrote: »

Y'all realize the whole reason we get transmutes for randoms is to incentivize people to run them to fill group finder runs for specific dungeons, right?

Obviously not.

Otherwise I can't explain to myself how some people can even think, that handing out transmutes for soloing dungeons by bypassing grouping with companions would be healthy to dungeon queues.

Dax_Draconis

sarahthes wrote: »

Y'all realize the whole reason we get transmutes for randoms is to incentivize people to run them to fill group finder runs for specific dungeons, right?

I'm guessing the transmutes aren't enough for some dungeons since I have seen too many immediately quit when they land in a DLC one.

polaris86

frogthroat wrote: »

I queue as a fake tank, but I put on some heavy gear like TT, use the PA set on back bar from my healer build, Archdruid monster, swap Master's Resto to Void Bash, add Pierce Armor, silver leash, etc. Then, in the dungeon I taunt the boss, debuff it, turn it away from the group and so on. And even after we finish the dungeon, no one even suspects that I am a fake tank. Mua-ha-ha-haa!

This is ok with me, you're doing tank-ish stuff. More than most "fakes" would do!

It's are the ones who queue as tanks with only dps skills slotted because they're dps players that feel like they're too important to wait in the dps queue. So the bosses get to run wild targeting the other players, often the healer. Holding the boss does not matter in base game dungeons, but it often matters in DLC, from my pug experiences.

That being said I don't know what ZOS can do about it. Any "checks" can be bypassed by changing your skills/armor once you're in.

sarahthes

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Y'all realize the whole reason we get transmutes for randoms is to incentivize people to run them to fill group finder runs for specific dungeons, right?

I'm guessing the transmutes aren't enough for some dungeons since I have seen too many immediately quit when they land in a DLC one.

10 isn't enough for Lair of Maarselok, even on normal.

spartaxoxo

polaris86 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

I queue as a fake tank, but I put on some heavy gear like TT, use the PA set on back bar from my healer build, Archdruid monster, swap Master's Resto to Void Bash, add Pierce Armor, silver leash, etc. Then, in the dungeon I taunt the boss, debuff it, turn it away from the group and so on. And even after we finish the dungeon, no one even suspects that I am a fake tank. Mua-ha-ha-haa!

This is ok with me, you're doing tank-ish stuff. More than most "fakes" would do!

It's are the ones who queue as tanks with only dps skills slotted because they're dps players that feel like they're too important to wait in the dps queue. So the bosses get to run wild targeting the other players, often the healer. Holding the boss does not matter in base game dungeons, but it often matters in DLC, from my pug experiences.

That being said I don't know what ZOS can do about it. Any "checks" can be bypassed by changing your skills/armor once you're in.

I actually think it matters in all dungeons because anyone who queued DPS is doing it specifically because they didn't want aggro or to heal. It's not fair to not only cut in front of someone else by lying about the role you're intending to take in the group, but then making that other person you cut in line do the job you agreed to do.

Like if I wanted aggro, I could have slotted a taunt and jumped the line and had a queue instantly rather than wait forever.

That's why I always vote to kick people who queue tank but don't slot a taunt, regardless of dungeon. If the kick fails, I leave.

A lot of the people who complain about this far too often don't back me up with kicks when someone does this. If the players aren't going to do their part, then obviously ZOS views it as a non-issue.

WalkingBomb

Braffin wrote: »

Why not using the newly added group finder, if you are looking for a specific experience?

This tool was implemented for exactly that purpose.

Let's make this the official answer so we don't have to have this discussion every time someone has a bad duty finder experience for any myriad of reasons.

Vulkunne

Worried about Fake Tanks? Does the possibility of havening someone in your group being less than honest about their role bother you? Do you have lots of gold or wealth that I can have? Well worry no more. Hi I'm Vulk from Orc Inquisition Inc.

We offer a full range of role inspection and alignment services to suite all yo daily delving needs. Each of our professional, (although legally questionable inspections) checks each role for the following:

Tank:
- Taunt on at least one bar
- Is the Taunt morphed
- How long has this Taunt been used
- Is the user certified to use the 'Taunt'
- Is the Taunt in proper synergy with the build?
- Is the build eco friendly?
- Is the user proper educated to fulfill this role? Note we will heavily insist on going overboard when questioning the poor person and will make sure they are indeed qualified for said dungeon run. We will ask for Full Completion of HM and Trifectas and will also need 3x proofs of ID along with 5x or more sworn statements from other players indicating that indeed this person can fulfill their role, (with dates, times and processing fees paid)... as they claim.

And so forth. Please message one of our Goblin agents today. They'll be happy to hear from you.

Thanks again

pinkfluffygoat

we have fake roles for tanks, healers, and dps. my god when i do actually bring my tank for a quick normal daily... these "dps" are so dang slow i may as well forget tanking and do the little damage id be able to do with my current tank build. probably would still be more than these fake dps!\

but in reallity its not the players fault. its the design of the game. its been nerfed so much that any content you do besides vet dlc/ arena and trials. you will just kill anything before the mechanics actually start. and even then the mechanics wont kill you because of how easy the game is. want someone to blame? blame the ones that dont know how to make engaging content for all communities

g0thiCiCecReaM

That's why I have a tank build for almost all my characters. You can usually do it without a tank but half the time with pugs you need it.

xclassgaming

Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.

Galiferno

xclassgaming wrote: »

Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.

lol ALWAYS? When my friends and I, in our private group, decide to do a 4 dps random normal, we are damaging our experience by not forcing unnecessary restrictions on ourselves instead of playing to our strengths?

Nuance, man.

g0thiCiCecReaM

I'd also like to point out there is nothing zos can do about it that can't be bypassed or be onerous to everyone else. Have a tank build and switch when necessary

PapaTankers

xclassgaming wrote: »

Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.

Hey! Actual tank here.

They don't hurt my experiance nearly as much as bad dds or people that come in without knowledge of mechanics.

Nharimlur_Finor

WalkingBomb wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Why not using the newly added group finder, if you are looking for a specific experience?

This tool was implemented for exactly that purpose.

Let's make this the official answer so we don't have to have this discussion every time someone has a bad duty finder experience for any myriad of reasons.

Let's not.

OsUfi

After my Fungal 1 vet face-palm at the weekend, I tried another RND tonight. Bal Sumnar normal. I queued as a healer. Fake tank, must have been a light armoured werewolf the way his health dropped. Died repeatedly at first boss and snapped at the rest of us for queuing for a dungeon we couldn't do. Mofo ran in like heck every time he got attacked and pulled everything out of everyone's AoEs! Had he stood still I might have been able to heal him, and we could killed the boss in no time. I slotted a taunt, and once again, ran healer and tank.

Thats the last RND I ever fricking do with randos. I swear to God, wherever the fake tanks are that find it faster to complete a dungeon with four DPSs are, I never seem to meet them. What a waste of everyone's chuffing time. Screw fake tanks and healers. The low to mid tier PvE experience in ESO is just incomprehensibly toxic to me, and I just don't get it.

Dax_Draconis

OsUfi wrote: »

After my Fungal 1 vet face-palm at the weekend, I tried another RND tonight. Bal Sumnar normal. I queued as a healer. Fake tank, must have been a light armoured werewolf the way his health dropped. Died repeatedly at first boss and snapped at the rest of us for queuing for a dungeon we couldn't do. Mofo ran in like heck every time he got attacked and pulled everything out of everyone's AoEs! Had he stood still I might have been able to heal him, and we could killed the boss in no time. I slotted a taunt, and once again, ran healer and tank.

Thats the last RND I ever fricking do with randos. I swear to God, wherever the fake tanks are that find it faster to complete a dungeon with four DPSs are, I never seem to meet them. What a waste of everyone's chuffing time. Screw fake tanks and healers. The low to mid tier PvE experience in ESO is just incomprehensibly toxic to me, and I just don't get it.

Just had the line jumping "fake tank" in vet Wayrest and had to chase the boss all over the place because they couldn't keep her in one spot at all. They selfishly wasted everyone's time.

katanagirl1

PapaTankers wrote: »

xclassgaming wrote: »

Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.

Hey! Actual tank here.

They don't hurt my experiance nearly as much as bad dds or people that come in without knowledge of mechanics.

Well…if you are queued as tank then there won’t be a fake tank in your group. So yeah, it doesn’t bother you.

PapaTankers

katanagirl1 wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

xclassgaming wrote: »

Fake tanks and Fake Healers ALWAYS damage experiences, it should be considered trolling and greifing to fake tank/fake heal and should 100% be a bannable offense.

Hey! Actual tank here.

They don't hurt my experiance nearly as much as bad dds or people that come in without knowledge of mechanics.

Well…if you are queued as tank then there won’t be a fake tank in your group. So yeah, it doesn’t bother you.

I dont play as a tank only. I play as a DD also.
In those cases I would rather have a fake tank and actually get into a dungeon rather than having bad DDs.

RetPing

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

OsUfi

RetPing wrote: »

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

Cool. Then we get fake healers instead.

PapaTankers

OsUfi wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

Cool. Then we get fake healers instead.

Can you provide an example of one normal dungeon where actual healer is needed?

Neiska

PapaTankers wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

Cool. Then we get fake healers instead.

Can you provide an example of one normal dungeon where actual healer is needed?

I can offer several.

1. When someone is new and learning the dungeon, they may not know where to stand and the like.
2. When an actual healer needs to practice, learn rotations, try new skills.
3. A new tank who is learning may miss a block or is learning mechanics. I can think of quite a few fights that can wipe a group even on normal if they don't know mechanics.
4. Some of the normal "later" dungeons can hit much harder than the "speedy" ones. Earthen Root Enclave. Frostvault. Shipwrights Regret. These Normal DLC dungeons can certainly hit hard, even on normal. And many of these fights you can't just "burn" past mechanics.
5. Not everyone is sitting on 2000 CP and is OP from the get-go.
6. Someone could be working on an alternate build and are still collecting gear for it and are sub-optimal until that point.
7. This is discounting the inexplicable, such as a player who is playing with a handicap. I myself am deaf IRL. It typically takes me a run or two to learn boss patterns and dungeon mechanics. But I might take a wrong turn and go the wrong way, pull unnecessary groups, or even pull more than 1 on accident. When in a new dungeon I usually say "hello, this is my first time here." Nearly always randoms are understanding and accommodating, and after the run I always go "thank you for being patient with me."
8. Another possibility is if the DPS is low, and the boss fights take longer, you might need a healer on some bosses if the fights go on for too long.

Skilled healers and tankers don't just magically happen either. It takes time and practice. To get comfortable and skilled doing those roles, but the same could be said for DPS too. Big boy DPS doesn't just fall off a tree either. (And to those DPS who are packing enough damage to be walking war crimes, heartfelt thank you.)

Someone can't just ignore all these things and then suddenly get to the endgame and go "why aren't there healers? why are is getting a tank so hard?" for trial content and beyond.

None of what I say here is said with any ill intent, only offering some real examples where I would rather have a healer than another DPS.