Fake Tanks are hurting the game

Rowjoh

The random normal dungeon system is flawed.

DLC dungeons are significantly different in difficulty and length than base game dungeons and the reasons for doing them differs considerably too.

Most players want to do a base game random normal as quickly as possible primarily for the XP boost in order to level up CP and/or skills.

Most players want to do a DLC dungeon to farm the better sets and get mythic leads.

Therefore it should be no surprise at all that players leave when a DLC pops up on a random normal

Nharimlur_Finor

If anyone wants to solo FG1, they can just go to entrance in Stonefalls without using the dungeon finder and not ticking the rest of us off. Same with any other played dungeon. It's probably quicker than waiting in the queue.

Ardriel

You don't need tanks and healers for normal dungeons. Many normal dungeons can be soloed. Even some of the dlc ones. You don't need them for many vet non dlc dungeons if the dps are experienced and skilled enough. Solution is make the content harder. Normal non dlc dungeons difficulty is ridiculous and content is boring. Players can skip through and ignore mechanics. So new players don't learn the proper mechanics. They assume vet content is similar. Most of the times it actually is. So they just queue as fake tanks and healers. I see it many times that players in vet dungeons have no idea about mechanics but they know exactly all the shortcuts and how to skip trash. Make it more challenging and fake tanks will eventually "die out"

Neiska

Tank issues is not unique to ESO, most MMOs have tank shortages. But being a Tank here doesn't feel like I am a tank. I feel more like a buff/debuffer who can block and has a lot of hitpoints. It might be an unpopular opinion, but to me it seems like 95% of the game revolves around DPS. Most normal dungeons they aren't needed. Overland they aren't needed. A well geared DPS can solo world bosses. I am no PVPer, but to me it seems tanks play a very minor role there as well. They could make tank DPS more impactful. I am pretty sure some people's companions do more damage than I do. When soloing I always take my companion just to make things faster.

And with so much of the game focused on DPS, paired with the nature of random dungeon finder, I am not surprised there is a shortage of tanks here. Even the Tanks role in a group is to buff the DPS and debuff the bosses. Being a tank main does feel like I am handicapping myself during solo play sometimes.

I think its kind of a self-making problem. People are so used to easy and speedy dungeons, that when they suddenly run into content where tanks are needed and you can't just push through mechanics, there's suddenly a shortage of tanks willing to do it with random people. Myself included. I won't do veteran dungeons with random people. Not when I have a group of guildmates asking me all the time to tank for them, which makes for a much better experience. That is the upside of being a tank main, if you are a good one, and willing to cue with clan mates you can make a lot of friends.

Just my musings and thoughts about it.

loosej

When it comes to the debate of who should and shouldn't be using the new group finder, I'd say all groups could benefit from it and the random dungeon finder should become the inferior choice for everyone. And looking at the comments in this thread, that's already the case, some people just aren't at the point where they're willing to accept that yet. Change is hard.

Elyu

There are many good points one can make about the state of pve, and combat more generally, and the game even more generally (many of those excellent points made by people in this thread)...but none of that matters in posts like these, because the sentiment expressed is (as far as I have seen) ALWAYS "The epidemic of MMO players in my single player Elder Scrolls Game"

limitswitch

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

People fake tank Bcs normal is so easy it doesn’t require a real tank and we don’t wanna 40 minutes in Que

This. I could (and often do) complete the non DLC dungeons solo because it's faster than the queue. I'd rather have a four man group, but I'm not willing to wait around for nearly an hour to find a tank for a dungeon where the adds and bosses pose no threat to me--which is all non DLC content.

People complain about "speedrunners." If I have to run a dungeon 40x to complete my sticker book, I'm not going to read through the dialog every time or waste time on enemies that I can just run past.

Aurielle

Rowjoh wrote: »

The random normal dungeon system is flawed.

DLC dungeons are significantly different in difficulty and length than base game dungeons and the reasons for doing them differs considerably too.

Most players want to do a base game random normal as quickly as possible primarily for the XP boost in order to level up CP and/or skills.

Most players want to do a DLC dungeon to farm the better sets and get mythic leads.

Therefore it should be no surprise at all that players leave when a DLC pops up on a random normal

My solution to this problem has been to drop my ESO+ subscription. I never buy dungeon DLCs, so every random normal is a guaranteed base game dungeon or (at the worst) WGT/ICP. I sub to ESO+ only four times a year, and I don’t run RNDs when I’m subbed.

The RND system should have a toggle for DLC and non-DLC content. I think if you were to do a poll, the vast majority of the people running RNDs do so for the transmute stones and the quick XP (and would therefore select the non-DLC toggle). To sweeten the deal a bit for running a random DLC dungeon, the number of transmute stones rewarded from the first run could be doubled and there could be a chance (not guaranteed) for the RND to drop a monster helm from the first run.

Rowjoh

Aurielle wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

The random normal dungeon system is flawed.

DLC dungeons are significantly different in difficulty and length than base game dungeons and the reasons for doing them differs considerably too.

Most players want to do a base game random normal as quickly as possible primarily for the XP boost in order to level up CP and/or skills.

Most players want to do a DLC dungeon to farm the better sets and get mythic leads.

Therefore it should be no surprise at all that players leave when a DLC pops up on a random normal

My solution to this problem has been to drop my ESO+ subscription. I never buy dungeon DLCs, so every random normal is a guaranteed base game dungeon or (at the worst) WGT/ICP. I sub to ESO+ only four times a year, and I don’t run RNDs when I’m subbed.

The RND system should have a toggle for DLC and non-DLC content. I think if you were to do a poll, the vast majority of the people running RNDs do so for the transmute stones and the quick XP (and would therefore select the non-DLC toggle). To sweeten the deal a bit for running a random DLC dungeon, the number of transmute stones rewarded from the first run could be doubled and there could be a chance (not guaranteed) for the RND to drop a monster helm from the first run.

Spot on.

Its crystal clear that base game and DLC dungeons are very different from each other and as such shouldn't be together in the same pool.

They are incompatible so no wonder group finder groups are often incompatible too !

Your idea is a good one and something I and others have touched upon several times in the past, but to no avail.

BXR_Lonestar

The Cauldron isn't even that hard, and on normal, you don't even need a tank. I've done that dungeon 2 man with just 1 other person on my petsorc.

moo_2021

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The Cauldron isn't even that hard, and on normal, you don't even need a tank. I've done that dungeon 2 man with just 1 other person on my petsorc.

But you need good dd.

I was healer several times, and had to act as semi tank after our fake tanks quit, and it got increasingly more difficult to evade and heal the damage as time went on, as there were more and more dangerous mobs and boss hits and deadly fire from two sides. Eventually I ran out of resource self healing and blocking and died every time.

Then one day I got paired with 3 others who do 100 DPS in total, which is by no means top as my tank could easily contribute 1/4 to 1/5 of that. We finished the boss before the first fire could close in, and it wouldn't even matter if I was a fake tank.


It seems to me the problem is often not about fake tank but fake DDs or newbie DDs who are sent to difficult dungeons they couldn't do. How could a real tank help if paired with 3 squashy DD doing 5k dps each?

Braffin

moo_2021 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The Cauldron isn't even that hard, and on normal, you don't even need a tank. I've done that dungeon 2 man with just 1 other person on my petsorc.

But you need good dd.

I was healer several times, and had to act as semi tank after our fake tanks quit, and it got increasingly more difficult to evade and heal the damage as time went on, as there were more and more dangerous mobs and boss hits and deadly fire from two sides. Eventually I ran out of resource self healing and blocking and died every time.

Then one day I got paired with 3 others who do 100 DPS in total, which is by no means top as my tank could easily contribute 1/4 to 1/5 of that. We finished the boss before the first fire could close in, and it wouldn't even matter if I was a fake tank.


It seems to me the problem is often not about fake tank but fake DDs or newbie DDs who are sent to difficult dungeons they couldn't do. How could a real tank help if paired with 3 squashy DD doing 5k dps each?

You basically nailed it.

Just want to add, that "abysmal low dps" doesn't necessarily mean "new player".

In fact most newbies I meet adapt rather quickly and get themselves a proper starter build. It's not that hard to do so, as top-dps aren't needed in dungeons anyways. A solid mediocre build is sufficient.

Most players refusing to do so are indeed seasoned veterans, which claim "play as you want" for themselves but intend to enforce their specifically preferred playstyle (kill every critter, loot every chest, read every bookshelf every single time when doing rnd) onto others.

Those fake group players refuse to utilize group finder, because they can't be bothered with waiting for others. Nonetheless they expect everyone else to wait for them of course.

Really, no wonder they aren't in a guild.

FayJolyn

If you don't like fake tanks why not try tanking yourself? That's what I did. My guild was really supportive and that's really motivating to get better. It's a fun challenge. I'm barely 3 weeks in and already am doing trials and dlc vet dungeons.

You can't control other players but you can control what you bring into the game. that's my two cents.

Quethrosar

i carry so many groups in the group finder. i have no patience for my 10 transmutes so i skip a lot of stuff. i.e. i turn ICP into a 15 minute run.

i will queue as a tank sometimes, if the group is having problems, i will slot a taunt but keep the dps up.

i did a vet random on my real tank the other day and got the worst dps people, so i ended up switching build to dps since tank and dps is same character, and went full dps mode so there was no official tank to be able to get the group through it. one boss needed a tank so i switched back to tank just for that one.

moral of the story is, if you fake tank, at least be able to taunt or be able to switch roles on the same character when needed.

Sarannah

Aurielle wrote: »

I have an excellent case in point for why "real" tanks do not PUG RNDs.

Queued in for my first of seven RNDs on one of my hybrid DPS tanks (i.e. DD with taunt and pull/immobilize skills). Darkshade Caverns 1, easy peasy. As soon as the dungeon starts, someone loudly declares in group chat that they are there for sticker book completion and XP, and insists no one should rush ahead. Ah, it's going to be one of THESE runs, I think to myself. Most people run RNDs for the transmutes, but no, THIS person was going to dictate how the dungeon would proceed for everyone.

Anyway, you know the first pull of adds in DC1? And how standard strategy is to pull adds from the area on the left to the area on the right and fight both two groups together? I did this, of course. And the loud individual stubbornly stayed in the first area and re-aggroed the group of adds I had already aggroed. So I singlehandedly take care of the pack I dragged over in a few seconds and move on to deal with the kwama scribs. They, too, melt in seconds. I kindly proceed to the first optional boss (which I didn't have to do, but this is now a "sticker book" run, so whatever, I'll oblige), and loudmouth (still in the first trash pull area) tells me off for "ignoring" their request to not rush.

Like... I had killed every single group of adds encountered up until that point, with the exception of the first group that the loudmouth had decided to re-aggro. "Rushing" means you skip past every single trash group and run directly to the boss. I absolutely did not do this. Grouping and clustering trash mobs to burn them down is not "rushing" -- it's called tanking!

So I slowed waaaay down... And was still doing 70% of the group's overall DPS. Loudmouth takes it upon themselves to stop after the second boss and give unasked for pointers to one of the other DPS while I move on to deal with the next group of adds. I'm waiting at the next boss (again, after singlehandedly taking care of all the trash), and the one-way conversation is still going... I ask them to type less and follow tank, and they snottily inform me I can leave.

I thought quite seriously about dropping the group and leaving them with a long queue and no tank, because dealing with toxicity first thing in the morning isn't entirely pleasant. But I stuck it out (again, doing 65%-70% of the DPS with every encounter).

If I had brought my full veteran dungeon tank spec into that RND, I think we'd still be in there. Or, rather, the three of them would still be in there -- I would have left after the first boss fight.

So yeah. This is why you get "fake tanks" in the group finder.

Well, not everyone speaks english. So it may have sounded like a rude thing, but maybe wasn't meant like that. On EU this happens a lot due to many different languages. Anyways, personally I would have kicked that player or left myself, there is no need to deal with toxicity from anyone. Games are meant for fun.

Keep in mind, I want dungeons done fast too. But not speedrun/fake role fast. So if anyone is absolutely terrible and is not improving, you have the right to kick. As a tank I've learned dps players improve really fast, when they get the chance to. But the problem is that dps players are not expecting to encounter a real tank/healer, so they incorporate these roles into their own. Making them fail/bad at their own role. This is why I blame fake role/speedrunner players for this "fake dps" problem.

thorwyn wrote: »

You have that backwards! The dungeonfinder has defined roles, so players expect that of a random group.

No, it's not backwards. If you queue up for a dungeon with certain expectations, YOU are supposed to either make sure that the group is in line with your expectations, or you accept the chance to get into a group with people who might have different expectations. The extended group finder gives you all the tools you need to avoid that conflict. It's not the fake rolers or speedrunners that are complaining about PUGs.

This also allows players to learn a role.

Do roles magically disappear once you use the extended group finder? They can learn their roles there just as well.

It is actually those who fake role/speedrun which should be using the groupfinder, as they are not using the roles used for randoms in the dungeonfinder.

No, beacuse like I said above, those people are not the ones that are complaining about the status quo. Those people are not the ones that were asking for an extended group finder. This tool was introduced to make life easier for people like you, who are unable to deal with the idea that "play how you want" includes everyone, not just you.

So you are basically defending fake role/speedrunner players(which are mostly veteran players), by saying new/inexperienced players should go find a way to find a way to learn their role. Instead of having veteran players do that, as they are the ones that do not want to follow the traditional MMO roles. Every MMO in existence has used the traditional roles(even ESO), so any new/inexperienced players will expect the random dungeonfinder to work like that. And will use that to group up and to learn their role.
Impacting three other players negatively by fake role-ing/speedrunning is a choice, one these players make all the time. And one they try to defend in any way, regardless of the effect it has on the game itself. And regardless of how many players will quit over this toxicity.

Defending veteran/toxic players in your way is a huge screw you to new/inexperienced players, to ESO's health, and to ZOS's financials. And shows how far some players are willing to go to defend the way they gain transmute crystals. This toxicity is an active choice, because otherwise they would use the groupfinder or queue for their real role. But for some reason they don't, and that is what ZOS needs to realize: These playes rather abuse three others for a 10 second quicker dungeon complete, than to use the groupfinder to find likeminded players. These players actively choose to abuse other players continually, when they can choose not to! Which is why ZOS has no choice but to force them to play nice, or to get them to gain their precious rewards another way without causing abuse to other players.

I want dungeons done fast too, but not in this toxic way. I'd rather not queue than abuse other players. Sadly not everyone makes this choice, this is why every other MMO has safeguards in place to prevent things like this.

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah you keep saying your suggestion helps anybody, nonetheless that's not true:

1) Newer players doesn't own 3 levelled and equipped companions but need story dungeons the most. In fact only a fraction of players is utilizing companions. Most of them are veterans with hundreds to thousands of hours in this game.
2) You didn't express yourself at all regarding the devaluation of transmutes and all other means of gaining them.
3) Helping groups to play dungeons together in a fun way won't be achieved by giving players in need of learning group play a possibility to circumvent groups without tradeoff.

The only real profiteers are once again the soloists, which would earn every "precious shiny" while neglecting and agitating against all mmo-parts of eso.

If zos even considers this, they should shorten the process and shut the game down for good. No need for a "single player mmo".

On a sidenote: My view has nothing to do with defending speedrunners/fake roles (including fake dps). I'd never do that, as I don't exactly appreciate rude behaviour in dungeons. There are options tho (like the ones I mentioned and some more for sure), which are possibly solving the issue without destroying the group queues completely.

Neither would I want to destroy groupplay. But groupplay should really be groupplay, and the players who are speedrunning/fake role-ing aren't there for the groupplay. I'm all for any option that solves this issue.

On your other points:
1: Newer players do not automatically have three companions no, but this is something ZOS can provide(even temporary on a per dungeon basic by assigning three random companions with the correct role). And would both promote companions, as well as get players to want to unlock them to fully use them with their own set-ups.
2: How can transmutes devalue? They are accountbound and everything created with them is accountbound, there isn't a real need to change this(maybe remove the way to get nirnhoned by deconstructing). And I'm all for more options to get transmutes, as they only serve the purpose of getting players into the random dungeonfinder. (I wouldn't mind if transmutes were entirely removed from the game. Allowing more build freedom, as that relies mostly on the stickerbook now anyways.)
3: Actually it would, as it would allow any player to learn at their own pace. But you are missing the point, with a +3 companion queue that grants transmute rewards it will be primarily the players that speedrun/fake role dungeons using that method. This is why the transmute reward needs to be there. Leaving the actual random dungeonfinder queue for those who actually want to group up with other players and those who want to play with other players. Playing with other players will always be a better learning ground to learn your role, so players that want to learn their role will primarily be using the random dungeonfinder queue.
The +three companions queue with tansmutes is basically separating both these types of players. Which is a win for both types(and every other player type, as this method allows everyone to go at their own pace).

So it is not just the soloists winning/gaining something, as to really learn a grouprole they would still need to queue up in the queue with other players. Which means after doing a few dungeons with companions, they would still queue up in the random dungeonfinder with other players. While at the same time those who only want the rewards/transmutes no longer have to bother other players and can instantly queue up with three companions instead. So they are no longer causing harm in the random dungeonfinder, while new/inexperienced/there-to-meet-other-players players will still be queueing in the random dungeonfinder.

PS: Even if transmutes had a value a +three companions queue with transmute rewards would not cause the value to drop. Because sometimes a speedrunner/fake role group does work out, but these runs are fast. Compare this to those same three players choosing a slower+three companions queue, in which they will move slower. This would actually cause fewer transmutes to flood the game, but with much less toxicity/harm caused by/to any group.

Braffin wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The Cauldron isn't even that hard, and on normal, you don't even need a tank. I've done that dungeon 2 man with just 1 other person on my petsorc.

But you need good dd.

I was healer several times, and had to act as semi tank after our fake tanks quit, and it got increasingly more difficult to evade and heal the damage as time went on, as there were more and more dangerous mobs and boss hits and deadly fire from two sides. Eventually I ran out of resource self healing and blocking and died every time.

Then one day I got paired with 3 others who do 100 DPS in total, which is by no means top as my tank could easily contribute 1/4 to 1/5 of that. We finished the boss before the first fire could close in, and it wouldn't even matter if I was a fake tank.


It seems to me the problem is often not about fake tank but fake DDs or newbie DDs who are sent to difficult dungeons they couldn't do. How could a real tank help if paired with 3 squashy DD doing 5k dps each?

You basically nailed it.

Just want to add, that "abysmal low dps" doesn't necessarily mean "new player".

In fact most newbies I meet adapt rather quickly and get themselves a proper starter build. It's not that hard to do so, as top-dps aren't needed in dungeons anyways. A solid mediocre build is sufficient.

Most players refusing to do so are indeed seasoned veterans, which claim "play as you want" for themselves but intend to enforce their specifically preferred playstyle (kill every critter, loot every chest, read every bookshelf every single time when doing rnd) onto others.

Those fake group players refuse to utilize group finder, because they can't be bothered with waiting for others. Nonetheless they expect everyone else to wait for them of course.

Really, no wonder they aren't in a guild.

All players can make new characters and builds or can be bad at playing certain characters/builds they do have.... so stating only a particular group of players is doing low dps is just false(the guild thing is not even worth a response). The fact that these players can't learn to do their role or learn their spec is the direct effect of fake roles/speedrunners.

When I am tanking, whenever there is low DPS I see them improve within a few mob packs. And I don't mean improve with a few k's of DPS, but triple or quadriple numbers. Players can't improve if they do not have the room to improve, which they only get when the group consists of real roles. Another issue with fake role/speedrunner players is, DPS also need to do those two jobs on their DPS build! Meaning they have to sacrifice DPS for survivability, and have to sacrifice DPS for healing. Meaning fake roles/speedrunners cut down the DPS's DPS by around 2/3th. Meaning a 100k dps player would now only do 33k. And a 30k DPS player will do only 10k DPS. Cause and effect.
Direct cause: Fake roles and Speedrunners.

No matter how players try to justify this toxic behaviour, it is harming the game(negative experiences/fewer players wanting to queue up), the game's population and dungeonqueue population(players quitting/fewer players queueing up), and the roles players can perform(no way to learn or improve/no room to fully spec for their role/underperforming in their role).
Cause and effect, and the cause needs to be stopped.

PS: When I queue up on a tank I often get responses like: "Finally a real tank!"
PPS: If a 'fake tank' uses taunt and does not die, they aren't a fake tank, in my eyes. Maybe bad in how they do it or perform overall, but still a real tank. One of my tanks is also mainly a dps with a taunt. Which is a real tank.

Necrotech_Master

the thing that ruins random dungeons the most for me is speedruners, not fake roles

i would rather end up in a group of low cp newbies who have never done the dungeon before and explain basic mechanics to them than land in a group with a speedrunner

on the fake roles, i personally dont do it, but i dont care if someone does as long as they can do the absolute basic function of the role (tank: having taunt and not dying, healer: having at least one non-self heal to provide to the group, dps: not running a taunt skill and pulling stuff off the tank) as long as they are not a speedrunner

i understand those who want to speedrun, when they need massive amounts of transmutes because theres no way to buy them, and you can only store so many

Dax_Draconis

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

...
i understand those who want to speedrun, when they need massive amounts of transmutes because theres no way to buy them, and you can only store so many

And since there are a lot of speed runners with the same goal, then it would make sense for them to set up a speedrun group in the group finder tool. I don't know why they don't.

moo_2021

Sarannah wrote: »

No matter how players try to justify this toxic behaviour, it is harming the game(negative experiences/fewer players wanting to queue up), the game's population and dungeonqueue population(players quitting/fewer players queueing up), and the roles players can perform(no way to learn or improve/no room to fully spec for their role/underperforming in their role).

True but aren't there some DLC dungeons where rules are not even strictly followed? Boss teleport and attack dd regardless of taunt, or one shot tank right through blocking. What can they learn from inside those dungeons directly, other than that roles don't really matter but dps do? Most just quit after several retries.

It wouldn't be such a problem if those who join PUG can select the actual difficulty, but they cannot. Banished Cells 1 is in the same place as Scrivener's Hall.

sarahthes

I do not queue dungeons as a "real" tank unless I'm in a premade group. 1 hour for vet wayrest 1 because DPS is so low just isn't my idea of a good time.

If I'm not with friends I will slot inner rage and queue a random normal as tank. I usually wind up doing between 50-80% of group damage while holding the boss. I'm experienced so I know when I have to roll and when I have to block.

I only do vet content when I'm grouped with my tank friend. I will either play DPS or healer.

85-95% of the time when I'm on healer I find myself slowly adding more and more DPS skills to my bar as we proceed thru the dungeon because the dds don't do damage, nor do they follow mechanics instructions.

RaikaNA

Neiska wrote: »

Tank issues is not unique to ESO, most MMOs have tank shortages. But being a Tank here doesn't feel like I am a tank. I feel more like a buff/debuffer who can block and has a lot of hitpoints. It might be an unpopular opinion, but to me it seems like 95% of the game revolves around DPS. Most normal dungeons they aren't needed. Overland they aren't needed. A well geared DPS can solo world bosses. I am no PVPer, but to me it seems tanks play a very minor role there as well. They could make tank DPS more impactful. I am pretty sure some people's companions do more damage than I do. When soloing I always take my companion just to make things faster.

And with so much of the game focused on DPS, paired with the nature of random dungeon finder, I am not surprised there is a shortage of tanks here. Even the Tanks role in a group is to buff the DPS and debuff the bosses. Being a tank main does feel like I am handicapping myself during solo play sometimes.

I think its kind of a self-making problem. People are so used to easy and speedy dungeons, that when they suddenly run into content where tanks are needed and you can't just push through mechanics, there's suddenly a shortage of tanks willing to do it with random people. Myself included. I won't do veteran dungeons with random people. Not when I have a group of guildmates asking me all the time to tank for them, which makes for a much better experience. That is the upside of being a tank main, if you are a good one, and willing to cue with clan mates you can make a lot of friends.

Just my musings and thoughts about it.

I thought I'd voice my opinion about the Tank shortage in MMO's, especially in ESO. Tanks don't get any love from the developers.. Tanks have been begging for an AOE-based taunt for years in ESO...The only thing that came close was a set called Tormentor... And guess what happens to it now? ZOS nerfed the set for a ridiculous reason. they insist on not wanting tanks to have an AOE-based taunt for some reason.



DPS and healers have an AOE-based ability, so why not tanks? Why are the tanks being left behind?

If ZOS would give people the incentive to build tanks by making the playstyle more fun... I think the rise of tanks would increase in the game. So far playing a tank has a mediocre effect... you just stand there and block most of the time... occasionally you apply debuffs to the boss, and that's it. That's all you're doing most of the time. It's.... boring.

Galiferno

RaikaNA wrote: »

Neiska wrote: »

Tank issues is not unique to ESO, most MMOs have tank shortages. But being a Tank here doesn't feel like I am a tank. I feel more like a buff/debuffer who can block and has a lot of hitpoints. It might be an unpopular opinion, but to me it seems like 95% of the game revolves around DPS. Most normal dungeons they aren't needed. Overland they aren't needed. A well geared DPS can solo world bosses. I am no PVPer, but to me it seems tanks play a very minor role there as well. They could make tank DPS more impactful. I am pretty sure some people's companions do more damage than I do. When soloing I always take my companion just to make things faster.

And with so much of the game focused on DPS, paired with the nature of random dungeon finder, I am not surprised there is a shortage of tanks here. Even the Tanks role in a group is to buff the DPS and debuff the bosses. Being a tank main does feel like I am handicapping myself during solo play sometimes.

I think its kind of a self-making problem. People are so used to easy and speedy dungeons, that when they suddenly run into content where tanks are needed and you can't just push through mechanics, there's suddenly a shortage of tanks willing to do it with random people. Myself included. I won't do veteran dungeons with random people. Not when I have a group of guildmates asking me all the time to tank for them, which makes for a much better experience. That is the upside of being a tank main, if you are a good one, and willing to cue with clan mates you can make a lot of friends.

Just my musings and thoughts about it.

I thought I'd voice my opinion about the Tank shortage in MMO's, especially in ESO. Tanks don't get any love from the developers.. Tanks have been begging for an AOE-based taunt for years in ESO...The only thing that came close was a set called Tormentor... And guess what happens to it now? ZOS nerfed the set for a ridiculous reason. they insist on not wanting tanks to have an AOE-based taunt for some reason.



DPS and healers have an AOE-based ability, so why not tanks? Why are the tanks being left behind?

If ZOS would give people the incentive to build tanks by making the playstyle more fun... I think the rise of tanks would increase in the game. So far playing a tank has a mediocre effect... you just stand there and block most of the time... occasionally you apply debuffs to the boss, and that's it. That's all you're doing most of the time. It's.... boring.

This is a lack of knowledge and understanding of what advanced tanking is rather than tanking itself being lacking. Trying to keep uptimes on frost clench and stagger on a DK tank along with all other skills is definitely more than standing there and blocking. In fact, if you're blocking most of the time then there's a lack of knowledge of boss mechanics and lack of CPM.

SalamanNZ

There's too many bad players who don't know their roles and think they are anonymous behind their characters. I've seen fake everything. And these people all ruin the game.

Neiska

RaikaNA wrote: »

Neiska wrote: »

Tank issues is not unique to ESO, most MMOs have tank shortages. But being a Tank here doesn't feel like I am a tank. I feel more like a buff/debuffer who can block and has a lot of hitpoints. It might be an unpopular opinion, but to me it seems like 95% of the game revolves around DPS. Most normal dungeons they aren't needed. Overland they aren't needed. A well geared DPS can solo world bosses. I am no PVPer, but to me it seems tanks play a very minor role there as well. They could make tank DPS more impactful. I am pretty sure some people's companions do more damage than I do. When soloing I always take my companion just to make things faster.

And with so much of the game focused on DPS, paired with the nature of random dungeon finder, I am not surprised there is a shortage of tanks here. Even the Tanks role in a group is to buff the DPS and debuff the bosses. Being a tank main does feel like I am handicapping myself during solo play sometimes.

I think its kind of a self-making problem. People are so used to easy and speedy dungeons, that when they suddenly run into content where tanks are needed and you can't just push through mechanics, there's suddenly a shortage of tanks willing to do it with random people. Myself included. I won't do veteran dungeons with random people. Not when I have a group of guildmates asking me all the time to tank for them, which makes for a much better experience. That is the upside of being a tank main, if you are a good one, and willing to cue with clan mates you can make a lot of friends.

Just my musings and thoughts about it.

I thought I'd voice my opinion about the Tank shortage in MMO's, especially in ESO. Tanks don't get any love from the developers.. Tanks have been begging for an AOE-based taunt for years in ESO...The only thing that came close was a set called Tormentor... And guess what happens to it now? ZOS nerfed the set for a ridiculous reason. they insist on not wanting tanks to have an AOE-based taunt for some reason.



DPS and healers have an AOE-based ability, so why not tanks? Why are the tanks being left behind?

If ZOS would give people the incentive to build tanks by making the playstyle more fun... I think the rise of tanks would increase in the game. So far playing a tank has a mediocre effect... you just stand there and block most of the time... occasionally you apply debuffs to the boss, and that's it. That's all you're doing most of the time. It's.... boring.

I am split on the aoe taunt thing. Sure, its a thing in other games. Here, kind of mixed. But their stance on it seems pretty firm. Would it be fun? Sures. But honestly, I don't think its really necessary in 99% of pulls, at least in my experience. Almost all pulls has 1 big bads, be it a bone colossus, ogre, or whatever, that is supposed to be the tanks target. The other mobs often have attacks like archers or mage abilities that are interruptible. So here is what I do in such pulls -

I run in, with my staff bar active. Pop defensives like bone armor and so on. Destructive clench on archer A. Swap weapons. Silver Crossbow chain on archer b. Precise strike big bads. Poof. I now have aggro on 3 dangerous enemies. And if your DPS are worth their salt, the 2 archers will be down before your aggro drops, but if it does, I can always re-taunt.

I am not saying you are wrong, I see the attraction and fun that AoE taunts would have. But I adapt to the game I choose to play, and while they say they want taunt to be a single target thing, it is quite possible to keep aggro on 3-4 mobs at a time, without area taunt. It takes practice but sure, entirely doable. And honestly I find the challenge of doing so fun as well.

Do agree with your point that Tanks dont feel like we get much love though. We do a fraction of the damage. We are a bit more durable, but not durable enough to validate the 90% loss of damage in my opinion. Pretty much everything outside of dungeons and trials is focused on damage first, resources second, everything else last. Honestly, I wish world bosses hit harder. During a Harrowstorm or similar, I use the same tactics above to keep the big ones busy. Do I expect to kill them myself? Of course not. But what I can do is keep 3-4 big ones busy from munching on the squishies, and stay alive in the process. Usually they will pick one off, one by one, until its boss time.

Just sharing my own experience. Do wish they would show tanks some love. Not asking for a huge damage boost, but, "something" would be nice. Even a way to tank more than sword and board even. Why not a 2h tanker setup, or a dual wield, so on. How come offensive tanking or a "you die first" tank isn't an option? Its an option in some other MMOs. Why isn't a tank specialized in leeching an option, so on. So far I have played a DK tank, Sorc tank, and Necro tank, all at 50. They do feel very similar, with a few differences. My favorite is the Necro currently. I don't know, it just feels like we are negated to be durable buff/debuff bots, which in most other games isn't the tank at all, its the support. But here, they made the tank the support.

CGPsaint

Comment deleted as my views and opinions are not relevant to ZoS.

Depperoniak

Lately I've had a lot of tanks who just rushed ahead, aggroing everything and getting their not-so-tanky teammates overwhelmed an unable to follow through the hordes of mobs. It's like they are actively trying to kill their team. Go solo the damn dungeon if you're so tough!

Soarora

sarahthes wrote: »

I do not queue dungeons as a "real" tank unless I'm in a premade group. 1 hour for vet wayrest 1 because DPS is so low just isn't my idea of a good time.

This reminds me of pugging Bloodroot Forge... not once, but twice have I had TWO (2) hour runs in there, once as a healer, once as a tank. It's my least favorite dungeon because of that, yet it's in the same DLC as Falkreath Hold...

I do unironically like doing random vet despite the poor DPS on average but when a group has below average for a PUG DPS it's... bad. I don't think everyone understands that a tank complaining about low DPS isn't elitism but that low DPS makes tanking a fight increasingly more difficult due to resources and wrangling adds.

When it comes to normal, I don't do it at all because on a real tank DPS will run ahead of me and as a fake tank I'd feel bad for contributing to the speedrunning problem.

Nharimlur_Finor

As a PVE player, the transmute crystals don't matter to me. I don't need to constantly revise my gear's traits.
As a PVE player, I don't have an addon that shows me the other player's statistics. Their setup is their own business.

Dungeons are a TEAM event. If you can't play as part of a team, then please don't bother playing dungeons.
I've played many dungeon runs and can ASSURE YOU that when experienced, veteran players play as a team with inexperienced players, those runs are faster and more enjoyable than the ones where an individual focuses on their own needs and ruins it in a large part for the rest of us. Fake role or not...

Transmute crystals did not exist prior to Clockwork City release.
The Collections system (sticker book for the 9year-olds) was implemented 2-3 years ago.
So, dungeons were not originally setup to be run like this. The current problem in dungeons is how players respond to these new additions.

The dungeon system, (like the Guild Trader system) works as intended, in terms of taking new players through dungeons of increasing complexity and difficulty, based on their current level. New dungeons are added to the list of available dungeons as players reach set levels. New players are also given XP scrolls to use, along the development pathway.
IT IS frustrating when you have initiated a FREE scroll, to find yourself trapped in an event where some toxic taskmaster is hellbent on achieving their goal at the expense of everyone else.

On some occasions Run-ahead-Richard finishes the dungeon, meaning that questers don't get their point and have to queue again; or were rushed past a key interaction point; or quit and have to endure at time penalty before running again.

There's a lot for newer players to be unhappy about, instead we get labelled as 'filthy casuals'.

As a new account player, I won't need transmute crystals for quite some time. I suspect most new players don't have much idea about why they would be useful. With that in mind, all transmute crystal rewards should be removed from regular and moved to come from Veteran dungeons. Maybe change the amounts to ensure that the same reward is achieved for the same effort e.g. 10 crystals for each Vet dungeon (I have no idea what those amounts are now).
This would go along way to making new players feel more welcome and confident.

Vulkunne

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I have an excellent case in point for why "real" tanks do not PUG RNDs.

Queued in for my first of seven RNDs on one of my hybrid DPS tanks (i.e. DD with taunt and pull/immobilize skills). Darkshade Caverns 1, easy peasy. As soon as the dungeon starts, someone loudly declares in group chat that they are there for sticker book completion and XP, and insists no one should rush ahead. Ah, it's going to be one of THESE runs, I think to myself. Most people run RNDs for the transmutes, but no, THIS person was going to dictate how the dungeon would proceed for everyone.

Anyway, you know the first pull of adds in DC1? And how standard strategy is to pull adds from the area on the left to the area on the right and fight both two groups together? I did this, of course. And the loud individual stubbornly stayed in the first area and re-aggroed the group of adds I had already aggroed. So I singlehandedly take care of the pack I dragged over in a few seconds and move on to deal with the kwama scribs. They, too, melt in seconds. I kindly proceed to the first optional boss (which I didn't have to do, but this is now a "sticker book" run, so whatever, I'll oblige), and loudmouth (still in the first trash pull area) tells me off for "ignoring" their request to not rush.

Like... I had killed every single group of adds encountered up until that point, with the exception of the first group that the loudmouth had decided to re-aggro. "Rushing" means you skip past every single trash group and run directly to the boss. I absolutely did not do this. Grouping and clustering trash mobs to burn them down is not "rushing" -- it's called tanking!

So I slowed waaaay down... And was still doing 70% of the group's overall DPS. Loudmouth takes it upon themselves to stop after the second boss and give unasked for pointers to one of the other DPS while I move on to deal with the next group of adds. I'm waiting at the next boss (again, after singlehandedly taking care of all the trash), and the one-way conversation is still going... I ask them to type less and follow tank, and they snottily inform me I can leave.

I thought quite seriously about dropping the group and leaving them with a long queue and no tank, because dealing with toxicity first thing in the morning isn't entirely pleasant. But I stuck it out (again, doing 65%-70% of the DPS with every encounter).

If I had brought my full veteran dungeon tank spec into that RND, I think we'd still be in there. Or, rather, the three of them would still be in there -- I would have left after the first boss fight.

So yeah. This is why you get "fake tanks" in the group finder.

Well, not everyone speaks english. So it may have sounded like a rude thing, but maybe wasn't meant like that. On EU this happens a lot due to many different languages. Anyways, personally I would have kicked that player or left myself, there is no need to deal with toxicity from anyone. Games are meant for fun.

Keep in mind, I want dungeons done fast too. But not speedrun/fake role fast. So if anyone is absolutely terrible and is not improving, you have the right to kick. As a tank I've learned dps players improve really fast, when they get the chance to. But the problem is that dps players are not expecting to encounter a real tank/healer, so they incorporate these roles into their own. Making them fail/bad at their own role. This is why I blame fake role/speedrunner players for this "fake dps" problem.

thorwyn wrote: »

You have that backwards! The dungeonfinder has defined roles, so players expect that of a random group.

No, it's not backwards. If you queue up for a dungeon with certain expectations, YOU are supposed to either make sure that the group is in line with your expectations, or you accept the chance to get into a group with people who might have different expectations. The extended group finder gives you all the tools you need to avoid that conflict. It's not the fake rolers or speedrunners that are complaining about PUGs.

This also allows players to learn a role.

Do roles magically disappear once you use the extended group finder? They can learn their roles there just as well.

It is actually those who fake role/speedrun which should be using the groupfinder, as they are not using the roles used for randoms in the dungeonfinder.

No, beacuse like I said above, those people are not the ones that are complaining about the status quo. Those people are not the ones that were asking for an extended group finder. This tool was introduced to make life easier for people like you, who are unable to deal with the idea that "play how you want" includes everyone, not just you.

So you are basically defending fake role/speedrunner players(which are mostly veteran players), by saying new/inexperienced players should go find a way to find a way to learn their role. Instead of having veteran players do that, as they are the ones that do not want to follow the traditional MMO roles. Every MMO in existence has used the traditional roles(even ESO), so any new/inexperienced players will expect the random dungeonfinder to work like that. And will use that to group up and to learn their role.
Impacting three other players negatively by fake role-ing/speedrunning is a choice, one these players make all the time. And one they try to defend in any way, regardless of the effect it has on the game itself. And regardless of how many players will quit over this toxicity.

Defending veteran/toxic players in your way is a huge screw you to new/inexperienced players, to ESO's health, and to ZOS's financials. And shows how far some players are willing to go to defend the way they gain transmute crystals. This toxicity is an active choice, because otherwise they would use the groupfinder or queue for their real role. But for some reason they don't, and that is what ZOS needs to realize: These playes rather abuse three others for a 10 second quicker dungeon complete, than to use the groupfinder to find likeminded players. These players actively choose to abuse other players continually, when they can choose not to! Which is why ZOS has no choice but to force them to play nice, or to get them to gain their precious rewards another way without causing abuse to other players.

I want dungeons done fast too, but not in this toxic way. I'd rather not queue than abuse other players. Sadly not everyone makes this choice, this is why every other MMO has safeguards in place to prevent things like this.

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah you keep saying your suggestion helps anybody, nonetheless that's not true:

1) Newer players doesn't own 3 levelled and equipped companions but need story dungeons the most. In fact only a fraction of players is utilizing companions. Most of them are veterans with hundreds to thousands of hours in this game.
2) You didn't express yourself at all regarding the devaluation of transmutes and all other means of gaining them.
3) Helping groups to play dungeons together in a fun way won't be achieved by giving players in need of learning group play a possibility to circumvent groups without tradeoff.

The only real profiteers are once again the soloists, which would earn every "precious shiny" while neglecting and agitating against all mmo-parts of eso.

If zos even considers this, they should shorten the process and shut the game down for good. No need for a "single player mmo".

On a sidenote: My view has nothing to do with defending speedrunners/fake roles (including fake dps). I'd never do that, as I don't exactly appreciate rude behaviour in dungeons. There are options tho (like the ones I mentioned and some more for sure), which are possibly solving the issue without destroying the group queues completely.

Neither would I want to destroy groupplay. But groupplay should really be groupplay, and the players who are speedrunning/fake role-ing aren't there for the groupplay. I'm all for any option that solves this issue.

On your other points:
1: Newer players do not automatically have three companions no, but this is something ZOS can provide(even temporary on a per dungeon basic by assigning three random companions with the correct role). And would both promote companions, as well as get players to want to unlock them to fully use them with their own set-ups.
2: How can transmutes devalue? They are accountbound and everything created with them is accountbound, there isn't a real need to change this(maybe remove the way to get nirnhoned by deconstructing). And I'm all for more options to get transmutes, as they only serve the purpose of getting players into the random dungeonfinder. (I wouldn't mind if transmutes were entirely removed from the game. Allowing more build freedom, as that relies mostly on the stickerbook now anyways.)
3: Actually it would, as it would allow any player to learn at their own pace. But you are missing the point, with a +3 companion queue that grants transmute rewards it will be primarily the players that speedrun/fake role dungeons using that method. This is why the transmute reward needs to be there. Leaving the actual random dungeonfinder queue for those who actually want to group up with other players and those who want to play with other players. Playing with other players will always be a better learning ground to learn your role, so players that want to learn their role will primarily be using the random dungeonfinder queue.
The +three companions queue with tansmutes is basically separating both these types of players. Which is a win for both types(and every other player type, as this method allows everyone to go at their own pace).

So it is not just the soloists winning/gaining something, as to really learn a grouprole they would still need to queue up in the queue with other players. Which means after doing a few dungeons with companions, they would still queue up in the random dungeonfinder with other players. While at the same time those who only want the rewards/transmutes no longer have to bother other players and can instantly queue up with three companions instead. So they are no longer causing harm in the random dungeonfinder, while new/inexperienced/there-to-meet-other-players players will still be queueing in the random dungeonfinder.

PS: Even if transmutes had a value a +three companions queue with transmute rewards would not cause the value to drop. Because sometimes a speedrunner/fake role group does work out, but these runs are fast. Compare this to those same three players choosing a slower+three companions queue, in which they will move slower. This would actually cause fewer transmutes to flood the game, but with much less toxicity/harm caused by/to any group.

Braffin wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The Cauldron isn't even that hard, and on normal, you don't even need a tank. I've done that dungeon 2 man with just 1 other person on my petsorc.

But you need good dd.

I was healer several times, and had to act as semi tank after our fake tanks quit, and it got increasingly more difficult to evade and heal the damage as time went on, as there were more and more dangerous mobs and boss hits and deadly fire from two sides. Eventually I ran out of resource self healing and blocking and died every time.

Then one day I got paired with 3 others who do 100 DPS in total, which is by no means top as my tank could easily contribute 1/4 to 1/5 of that. We finished the boss before the first fire could close in, and it wouldn't even matter if I was a fake tank.


It seems to me the problem is often not about fake tank but fake DDs or newbie DDs who are sent to difficult dungeons they couldn't do. How could a real tank help if paired with 3 squashy DD doing 5k dps each?

You basically nailed it.

Just want to add, that "abysmal low dps" doesn't necessarily mean "new player".

In fact most newbies I meet adapt rather quickly and get themselves a proper starter build. It's not that hard to do so, as top-dps aren't needed in dungeons anyways. A solid mediocre build is sufficient.

Most players refusing to do so are indeed seasoned veterans, which claim "play as you want" for themselves but intend to enforce their specifically preferred playstyle (kill every critter, loot every chest, read every bookshelf every single time when doing rnd) onto others.

Those fake group players refuse to utilize group finder, because they can't be bothered with waiting for others. Nonetheless they expect everyone else to wait for them of course.

Really, no wonder they aren't in a guild.

All players can make new characters and builds or can be bad at playing certain characters/builds they do have.... so stating only a particular group of players is doing low dps is just false(the guild thing is not even worth a response). The fact that these players can't learn to do their role or learn their spec is the direct effect of fake roles/speedrunners.

When I am tanking, whenever there is low DPS I see them improve within a few mob packs. And I don't mean improve with a few k's of DPS, but triple or quadriple numbers. Players can't improve if they do not have the room to improve, which they only get when the group consists of real roles. Another issue with fake role/speedrunner players is, DPS also need to do those two jobs on their DPS build! Meaning they have to sacrifice DPS for survivability, and have to sacrifice DPS for healing. Meaning fake roles/speedrunners cut down the DPS's DPS by around 2/3th. Meaning a 100k dps player would now only do 33k. And a 30k DPS player will do only 10k DPS. Cause and effect.
Direct cause: Fake roles and Speedrunners.

No matter how players try to justify this toxic behaviour, it is harming the game(negative experiences/fewer players wanting to queue up), the game's population and dungeonqueue population(players quitting/fewer players queueing up), and the roles players can perform(no way to learn or improve/no room to fully spec for their role/underperforming in their role).
Cause and effect, and the cause needs to be stopped.

PS: When I queue up on a tank I often get responses like: "Finally a real tank!"
PPS: If a 'fake tank' uses taunt and does not die, they aren't a fake tank, in my eyes. Maybe bad in how they do it or perform overall, but still a real tank. One of my tanks is also mainly a dps with a taunt. Which is a real tank.

Traditional group does not exist without those in Traditional roles performing accordingly. If there is anyone in that group that does not have the experience and the gear they need then that from the very beginning isn't and cannot be considered to fit as a Traditional group.

The only way you're going to get this thing is by forming a group thru a guild with those who are skilled in their role and comfortable staying in that role. Otherwise its total pointless, vanity, never ever going to get this thing unless everyone in that group is meeting the standards for each role.

And if you have a new person whose learning (and you know we all started from somewhere), that's fine but that person is not going to magically run that role in the group like an experienced player in a Traditional group setting. It will never ever happen and thus, its partially pointless to keep complaining about not finding a 'Traditional' group, especially in random queue.

Its just not going to happen in the wild.

Nucklez

Everyone blasting OP about not liking fake tanks, but I do agree with one of the points they've made and I've made a post about it myself. People leaving dungeons because they don't feel like doing that one. Then I'm guessing they switch characters and try to queue over and over again quitting every time because they didn't get normal Fungal Grotto 1. SO many times in NORMAL (longer) dungeons people quit. Most of the time it's the tank, or maybe a fake tank. Again, all I have is speculation if the quitters are fake or real just quitting. The next issue is that you may not get a new tank by the time your group either finishes or gives up because this particular group really needs a real tank in this particular dungeon.

To focus on the fake tanks though, a lot of fake tanks have less DPS than a real tank and really suck at fake tanking. If the fake tanks actually had decent DPS or at least a taunt so they stop kiting the boss all around the room out of my AOEs then the fights would be much smoother. Some fake tanks are great and I love them, but LOTS of them are just horrible, horrible people. Try queuing as a proper healer and see how bad most of the fake tanks are. Also vice versa, same goes for fake healers.

Braffin

@Sarannah

Yes, groupplay should indeed be groupplay. Playing with 3 companions instead is as "groupy" as ignoring other players in dungeons nowadays, or even less so. Doing a dungeon with companions is playing the game solo, same as in overland. Therefore transmutes are out of the question.

1) You want newer players to learn a role for groupplay? That's not possible while running around solo with 3 crutches but only by socializing with real people.
2) You are suggesting nothing more than making the easiest way to gain transmutes (this is also the reason for dysfunctional rnd queues) even more prominent by make them earnable solo. That's devaluation.
3) nobody is learning group play at their own pace by not practicing group play but hiding behind 3 crutches. It's laughable to even think so.

You want a solution? Fine, here you go:

Either reduce the amount of transmutes gained from rnd queue or remove them entirely over there and the speedrunning/fake tanking will stop. Will be the usual playground for fake dds then.

Problem solved (in the very same manner as with your suggestion), transmutes preserved and speedrunners have to learn vet (which can't be speeded by players, which are unable to slot a proper taunt).