Fake Tanks are hurting the game

OsUfi

PapaTankers wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

Cool. Then we get fake healers instead.

Can you provide an example of one normal dungeon where actual healer is needed?

Apparently, Bal Sumner. That was my experience last night. As per my prior post, Fungal sodding one on vet mode would have certainly been faster had I had a healer at the weekend.

Major_Toughness

Trying to farm normal Bedlam Veil with no friends online. Fake tanking with taunt for bosses and big adds, and still doing up to 65% of group DPS on bosses in runs.

Heelie

my take on this will always be that it's impossible to define a tank in a way that wouldn't allow DPS players to argue that they're tanks in good faith.

The truth is that players have the right to queue as tanks even in full damage gear since the role specifically says to prevent the group from taking damage. Killing the enemy does that.

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

I think a much more healthy conversation has to be made around what could be done to improve the random normal queue, and what group of players are hurt the most by this.

I think it's quite natural to look at a Sheppard system. The truth is that newer players are probably the only group of players that could potentially be hurt by the behavior. Looking at other MMOs a lot of them have implemented systems where veteran players can queue voluntarily with newer players. You don't even need a reward structure for the most part. But you could make achievements and titles to go along. This way you shield the community of newer players from this behavior in a way.

I think this approach is much more solution-oriented, instead of a debate that has been had for almost 10 years at this point. There will always be an incentive to skip queue times and the dungeon completion itself when the reward is exclusively tied to just completing the content. Instead, looking at reducing harm seems much more logical to me.

OsUfi

Heelie wrote: »

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

But this my problem. They never speed anything up, even on normal mode and base game vet mode. Both times recently actively slowing everyone else down.

Heelie

OsUfi wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

But this my problem. They never speed anything up, even on normal mode and base game vet mode. Both times recently actively slowing everyone else down.

Well, that is obviously not true yesterday I fake tanked a dungeon and did 90% of group dps + holding agro, this group would have cleared much slower with a tank in full tank setup.

Neiska

Heelie wrote: »

The truth is that players have the right to queue as tanks even in full damage gear since the role specifically says to prevent the group from taking damage. Killing the enemy does that.

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

I think this approach is much more solution-oriented, instead of a debate that has been had for almost 10 years at this point. There will always be an incentive to skip queue times and the dungeon completion itself when the reward is exclusively tied to just completing the content. Instead, looking at reducing harm seems much more logical to me.

I think using the term "right" is a bit misleading here. True, people can cue for whatever role they like, but that also implies expectations. Such as at least having a taunt. And, while I rarely experience fake-tanks myself (since I play tanks almost exclusively right now) I do hear horror stories quite regularly. Fake tanks suddenly leaving group, or getting squashed to a mechanic, or not controlling a boss, the dungeon taking longer even as they cued as a DPS.

I do agree the argument is an old one and is unlikely to change anytime soon. But to claim "its not hurting anyone" is a bit disingenuous, as you are assuming several things. That no one else is bothered by such behavior. That everyone who cues as a fake-tank is a great dps. That everyone who cues as a fake tank knows boss fights. That every fake-tank makes every group and dungeon faster, and so on. Even your claim that they make "every" dungeon faster, is false, during the few times I did have a fake tank, the dungeon was notably worse and took far longer than necessary.

Just "Damage" is not the end-all be all here. In lower content? Sure. 4 DPS can just burn through in record time. Harder content? Not so much. And the "victims" in this situation, are both the people at endgame facing a lack of skilled tanks for harder activities, and the community itself, for all but rewarding such behaviors that can prohibit new tanks from learning, or new people from learning, and so on.

But all that said, I do agree with your general point that Random dungeons are just that, random. A roll of the dice. You might get a real tank, real heals, 2 super dps. Or you might get 4 sub-par dps. Or anything in-between. Personally, I go by "know the water you swim in." Someone who clicks the random dungeon finder by definition, accepts the chance they may or may not get the ideal group of people who conforms to their personal playstyle. If someone absolutely MUST play a certain way, they are free to form their own group.

However, if people aren't allowed to complain about "fake tanks" in random dungeons, then I don't want to hear about anyone else complaining about other role related issues either. This isn't a one-way street here.

"You will take your fake tanks and like it." turns into "How come tanks don't do pledges with random people" or "Why don't tanks do random vet dungeons?" and lastly "Why are there so few tanks endgame?"

But to claim that such actions does not impact the community, both new players and endgame players alike is a bit disingenuous.

Heelie

Neiska wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

The truth is that players have the right to queue as tanks even in full damage gear since the role specifically says to prevent the group from taking damage. Killing the enemy does that.

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

I think this approach is much more solution-oriented, instead of a debate that has been had for almost 10 years at this point. There will always be an incentive to skip queue times and the dungeon completion itself when the reward is exclusively tied to just completing the content. Instead, looking at reducing harm seems much more logical to me.

But to claim that such actions does not impact the community, both new players and endgame players alike is a bit disingenuous.

For the most part means "majority of situations", I go on to state a situation where someone is getting hurt by it in the very next sentence. My point is that fake tanks don't hurt anyone in the majority of situations, as for the point about how fake tanks lead people to not learn the tank role I disagree.

There is not a lack of tanks in end game (the ratio is the same it has always been). There is a lack of tanks in PUG groups because we have tools such as discord today as well as the new group finder that lets the tanks decide who they play with. I have never had issues finding a tank for any content in the 8 years I played ESO. We even have several players that can play tank in my Trifecta group and that is vet HM trial content.

There has just been a switch where tank players have set a higher bar for who they are willing to play with, which means a small amount of players gets to play with all the tanks. This is completely fair since nothing stops a person from learning to tank, and it's certainly not the fault of the dungeon finder. It's the fault of the DDS in the zone chat and dungeon finder not doing proper due diligence before signing up leading to bad experiences for the tanks.

PapaTankers

I think the solution is simple.
People encounter so many fake roles almost exclusively because of random normals and because transmutes are locked behind it.

Raise the amount of transmute crystals in rVD and stop timegating it to one per day.

Neiska wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

There is a very simple solution for people annoyed by fake tanks, make one yourself.

Cool. Then we get fake healers instead.

Can you provide an example of one normal dungeon where actual healer is needed?

I can offer several.

1. When someone is new and learning the dungeon, they may not know where to stand and the like.
2. When an actual healer needs to practice, learn rotations, try new skills.
3. A new tank who is learning may miss a block or is learning mechanics. I can think of quite a few fights that can wipe a group even on normal if they don't know mechanics.
4. Some of the normal "later" dungeons can hit much harder than the "speedy" ones. Earthen Root Enclave. Frostvault. Shipwrights Regret. These Normal DLC dungeons can certainly hit hard, even on normal. And many of these fights you can't just "burn" past mechanics.
5. Not everyone is sitting on 2000 CP and is OP from the get-go.
6. Someone could be working on an alternate build and are still collecting gear for it and are sub-optimal until that point.
7. This is discounting the inexplicable, such as a player who is playing with a handicap. I myself am deaf IRL. It typically takes me a run or two to learn boss patterns and dungeon mechanics. But I might take a wrong turn and go the wrong way, pull unnecessary groups, or even pull more than 1 on accident. When in a new dungeon I usually say "hello, this is my first time here." Nearly always randoms are understanding and accommodating, and after the run I always go "thank you for being patient with me."
8. Another possibility is if the DPS is low, and the boss fights take longer, you might need a healer on some bosses if the fights go on for too long.

Skilled healers and tankers don't just magically happen either. It takes time and practice. To get comfortable and skilled doing those roles, but the same could be said for DPS too. Big boy DPS doesn't just fall off a tree either. (And to those DPS who are packing enough damage to be walking war crimes, heartfelt thank you.)

Someone can't just ignore all these things and then suddenly get to the endgame and go "why aren't there healers? why are is getting a tank so hard?" for trial content and beyond.

None of what I say here is said with any ill intent, only offering some real examples where I would rather have a healer than another DPS.

Im sorry, but all of the above are solved by slotting just 1 self heal in normal dungeons. All the mechanics deal radically less damage there.
You most deffiently dont need to be cp2000 or a god gamer to click one ability.

I will agree with you on that there are some very specific fights where actual tank or a healer might be needed on normal. Such as earthen root last fight.

VoidCommander

As a prolific fake tankers myself, here are my thoughts on this:

If someone is fake tanking, they need to be doing some incredible damage. In a typical pug group, I often deal 40-60% of the entire group's damage. This means we can breeze through most bosses on normal. I never fake tank dungeons on veteran because those usually will require a dedicated tank, although some of the older dungeons could still be fake tanked.

On that note, a fake tank who knows what they're doing can do most of the dungeons in the game. However, there are currently 3 dungeons I've experienced that are simply "unreliable" to fake tank due to the boss(es) having one shot mechanics that a DPS can't survive by blocking nor roll dodging. Forgive me as I don't recall any of the specific dungeons aside from March of Sacrifices, but I'd know them if I loaded in. After loading into one of these, I do leave because it is one of the few dungeons that I simply cannot fake tank on my own without relying on the healer and dps doing exceptional damage and/or being on point with timely revives.

Neiska

Heelie wrote: »

There is not a lack of tanks in end game (the ratio is the same it has always been). There is a lack of tanks in PUG groups because we have tools such as discord today as well as the new group finder that lets the tanks decide who they play with.

But this is just conjecture. You don't "know" that there isn't a lack of tanks. Considering this issue has been around as long as the game and persists whether or not voice chat is involved indicates otherwise. There is a lack of tanks in pretty much all "pug" content, on that we agree. But we disagree on if whether "fake tanking" affects that. In truth, I don't think its any single cause. Other games with similar PUG systems also have similar difficulties finding tanks.

Honestly, I think a bigger cause is the environment of PUG groups themselves. In a pug, people are largely free to act however they like. There is no impact if they are a jerk or not. In other games without a PUG system, like Everquest, player reputation is a thing. If you are a jerk, people will remember it, and suddenly you might find yourself unable to find a group because everyone will remember your name and go "don't invite that guy, he's a jerk." Here, we don't have that. Whether or not that's a good thing we need not address, but I do see a lot of similar circumstances of people who can't find random groups for end game activities.

But I do think its a bit dishonest to pretend that fake tanking doesn't affect the number of skilled tanks, PUG or otherwise. And, speaking as a Tank, the biggest reason why I don't pug for random groups more isn't because their dps is low, or they were a fake healer, etc. It's because the more different the content, the more jerks I come across. My free leisure time is precious to me, and the last thing I will do is Tank a random veteran dungeon for some PVPer who likes nothing better than to see how big his DPS can get, even if doing so risks the group dynamic.

Neiska

PapaTankers wrote: »

Im sorry, but all of the above are solved by slotting just 1 self heal in normal dungeons. All the mechanics deal radically less damage there.
You most deffiently dont need to be cp2000 or a god gamer to click one ability.

I will agree with you on that there are some very specific fights where actual tank or a healer might be needed on normal. Such as earthen root last fight.

And slotting one ability will not teach a new healer to heal in a trial. Or practice rotations. Or save a tank who misses a block on a big boss. etc etc.

By the same token of your counterpoint, I could very well say dps isn't needed either. You could have a group full of tanks or healers and they would clear the same content that a 4 dps group would, it would just take longer.

Overall, either everyone is needed, or no one is required. And if you ask me, the game panders far too much to DPS as it is, with so little of the content made for Tanks and Healers, and presenting "fake tanks" as an acceptable option tells the developers that this is okay, and that content will become easier and easier, until roles are pointless. And it will be just 4 dps, just one with a couple heals, and one with a taunt. Many easier dungeons are like that already, which to my mind is not a good thing.

It's a many-sided issue to be sure. Unavoidable once you start randomly grouping low geared/low cp people with people who are endgame geared, doing normal content.

Braffin

Neiska wrote: »

Honestly, I think a bigger cause is the environment of PUG groups themselves.

Truer words were never spoken.

You are correct by saying, that every MMO (I can confirm at least for those, which I played myself) suffers from a lack of tanks, not in content in general, but exclusively in PUGs.

Why is that while guilds and premade groups are fine?

A possible explanation: Players interested in tanking are group players by heart (they can't complete content on their own after all), guilds are also filled with people looking for grouping up.

It's a little bit different in PUGs tho: Not saying there aren't some people genuinely looking for groups, but you'll randomly also have to deal with entitlelists (only there for the rewards, not the content itself), players looking for a free carry, stubborn "veterans" (which still pretend this multiplayer game to be skyrim) and a lot of other toxic folk.

Tanking with friends/guildies: Mostly rather quick runs, nice atmosphere, interesting group synergies (build-wise and formation-wise) and a good laugh if things don't work out as expected.

Tanking a PUG: Mostly rather long and tedious runs due to low dps, odd atmosphere (some are in a rush, some wanna go slower, some refuse to communicate at all), little to no group synergies (especially formation-wise due to lack of communication) and nobody is laughing if there isn't even a reward at the end of the chore.

I for myself know what to pick to avoid an unpleasant gaming experience.

On a sidenote: Teaching newer players and helping them become "veterans" is important for a healthy game and is done all the time in guilds. PUGs aren't the right place to do so due to their chaotic nature.

Pixiepumpkin

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Braffin

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

Aurielle

Neiska wrote: »

My free leisure time is precious to me, and the last thing I will do is Tank a random veteran dungeon for some PVPer who likes nothing better than to see how big his DPS can get, even if doing so risks the group dynamic.

Can you please clarify for us why you're accusing PVPers of chasing huge DPS numbers to the detriment of the group? Most of the toxic players I meet in random dungeons who constantly post their parses in chat have very low alliance ranks (i.e. they're not PVPers -- they got their Caltrops and left). If anything, PVPers (the lazy kind who don't bother to swap builds) are more likely to put out LESS damage because they have tanky single target builds.

spartaxoxo

There is near universal speed runs in RND/Base Game vets in there. Some enjoy it, some hate it, but it's rare that groups aren't run that way. And it's because the design allows for it. And the ones that don't tend to be massive slogs to due to the overwhelming amounts of low damage players.

Pixiepumpkin

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

Pixiepumpkin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is near universal speed runs in RND/Base Game vets in there. Some enjoy it, some hate it, but it's rare that groups aren't run that way. And it's because the design allows for it. And the ones that don't tend to be massive slogs to due to the overwhelming amounts of low damage players.

Exactly. Other games do not have these issues because their content was designed differently.

Neiska

Aurielle wrote: »

Neiska wrote: »

My free leisure time is precious to me, and the last thing I will do is Tank a random veteran dungeon for some PVPer who likes nothing better than to see how big his DPS can get, even if doing so risks the group dynamic.

Can you please clarify for us why you're accusing PVPers of chasing huge DPS numbers to the detriment of the group? Most of the toxic players I meet in random dungeons who constantly post their parses in chat have very low alliance ranks (i.e. they're not PVPers -- they got their Caltrops and left). If anything, PVPers (the lazy kind who don't bother to swap builds) are more likely to put out LESS damage because they have tanky single target builds.

I am not accusing PVPers of anything, aside from most of the speedrunners/flexers tend to have PVP titles. Not all of them mind you, but often. There are just as many toxic PVE'ers. If anything, considering far more people PVE than PVP, I would argue there are more toxic PVE players just because of the size of groups doing each activity.

And by "chasing dps numbers" I literally just got out of a dungeon where a speedster was posting his dps in chat, going so far as to run off and pull more enemies during a boss just to boost them higher. This literally just happened 30 seconds ago. His title? Emperor.

But I will clarify that I make no claim or insinuation that the PVP community is entirely toxic. I suspect that the same people who are toxic in the PVP communities and PVE communities are the same people in question.

Braffin

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

Aurielle

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is near universal speed runs in RND/Base Game vets in there. Some enjoy it, some hate it, but it's rare that groups aren't run that way. And it's because the design allows for it. And the ones that don't tend to be massive slogs to due to the overwhelming amounts of low damage players.

Exactly. Other games do not have these issues because their content was designed differently.

Speed running dungeons for efficiency in grinding/obtaining rewards has existed for as long as MMORPGs have existed. It is a common strategy employed by experienced tanks in all games with trash pulls (not just this one) to group waves of trash together and burn them down quickly with AOE damage as a single unit, rather than fighting one group of trash at a time.

Problems arise when people fall back and try to fight trash groups one at a time, rather than running with the tank grouping up all the trash -- and this is why clear communication is important. When I'm tanking (especially if I see that everyone in group is mid to high CP), I inform them that I will be clustering and aggroing larger groups of trash adds, rather than focusing on one group at a time. Runs always go smoothly, unless there's some high CP busybody stop-and-pick-the-flowers type mouthing off in chat about "fake tank rushing," or if they're completely new players (if it's the latter, I slow down to help them get their bearings, if the former, I keep going).

Pixiepumpkin

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Pixiepumpkin

Aurielle wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is near universal speed runs in RND/Base Game vets in there. Some enjoy it, some hate it, but it's rare that groups aren't run that way. And it's because the design allows for it. And the ones that don't tend to be massive slogs to due to the overwhelming amounts of low damage players.

Exactly. Other games do not have these issues because their content was designed differently.

Speed running dungeons for efficiency in grinding/obtaining rewards has existed for as long as MMORPGs have existed. It is a common strategy employed by experienced tanks in all games with trash pulls (not just this one) to group waves of trash together and burn them down quickly with AOE damage as a single unit, rather than fighting one group of trash at a time.

Problems arise when people fall back and try to fight trash groups one at a time, rather than running with the tank grouping up all the trash -- and this is why clear communication is important. When I'm tanking (especially if I see that everyone in group is mid to high CP), I inform them that I will be clustering and aggroing larger groups of trash adds, rather than focusing on one group at a time. Runs always go smoothly, unless there's some high CP busybody stop-and-pick-the-flowers type mouthing off in chat about "fake tank rushing," or if they're completely new players (if it's the latter, I slow down to help them get their bearings, if the former, I keep going).

You are leaving out context.

Why is speed running bad in ESO? Because in most cases the lower level players are not able to do the quests for the dungeon. This is not the case for other mmos because every boss is a check point before they can move to the next. Secondly, other mmos do not allow top level players to run the same dungeon as low level players. This ensures that most of the players running the dungeon are on the same quest chains, or if they have completed it, they are still running the dungeon appropriate for their level meaning no power creep meaning they cant speed run.

My point stands.

Neiska

Aurielle wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is near universal speed runs in RND/Base Game vets in there. Some enjoy it, some hate it, but it's rare that groups aren't run that way. And it's because the design allows for it. And the ones that don't tend to be massive slogs to due to the overwhelming amounts of low damage players.

Exactly. Other games do not have these issues because their content was designed differently.

Speed running dungeons for efficiency in grinding/obtaining rewards has existed for as long as MMORPGs have existed. It is a common strategy employed by experienced tanks in all games with trash pulls (not just this one) to group waves of trash together and burn them down quickly with AOE damage as a single unit, rather than fighting one group of trash at a time.

Problems arise when people fall back and try to fight trash groups one at a time, rather than running with the tank grouping up all the trash -- and this is why clear communication is important. When I'm tanking (especially if I see that everyone in group is mid to high CP), I inform them that I will be clustering and aggroing larger groups of trash adds, rather than focusing on one group at a time. Runs always go smoothly, unless there's some high CP busybody stop-and-pick-the-flowers type mouthing off in chat about "fake tank rushing," or if they're completely new players (if it's the latter, I slow down to help them get their bearings, if the former, I keep going).

There are a few differences though. In other games where swarming is a thing, tanks have AoE tools for threat. Here, we are limited. And sure, it might be a common strategy, but far from the only one.

Personally I subscribe to "you play your way, I'll play mine, and we will meet in the middle somewhere." The issue arises when people who prefer different playstyles are thrown together in the random dungeon finder, and one group of people want to gogogogo and another group does not. However, the gogogogo sorts can "force" it to happen, just by running off, the people such as myself who do not like such gameplay? Nothing we can do about it. In such groups i am often stuck sprinting behind, barely have time to loot let alone do quests or get chests and the like, and find myself at a boss whose already pulled with zero stamina, and same gogogo person is yelling why haven't I taunted yet. And "forcing" that upon a group, is not "meeting in the middle."

The only recourse to people like myself is simply not do random dungeons. If it wasn't for the 10 transmute crystals, I wouldn't do them at all. And if they were removed? I might never do a random dungeon again.

Which of course, brings us full circle I believe. People complaining about tank cues, or "fake tanking", or the lack of tanks in pug trials and the like. To which I would say "you (as a community) made your own bed, now sleep in it." And I don't expect it to change anytime soon. If anything I expect it to get worse until if/when ZoS decides to do something about it, which I sincerely doubt. I would sooner expect them to eliminate the tank and healer roles entirely than try to fix things, seeing how much of the game content is nearly all centered around dps. There is barely enough things to even validate the roles existence now as it is.

Braffin

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/

Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/

In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.

So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.

Pixiepumpkin

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/

Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/

In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.

So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.

I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.

The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.

Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.

Braffin

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/

Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/

In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.

So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.

I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.

The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.

Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.

Ignore the facts as much as you want. The official wow forums are more trustworthy imo:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/speed-running-dungeons-needs-to-end/1683426

[bI am sure this will be an unpopular opinion and get me insults, As a healer and a dps I am so sick of the tanks and some dps just rushing on through dungeons. I don’t think we should go super slow but let people catch up instead of dying just so you can prove that you’re fast and can’t add 2+2 together to figure out why you keep dying. I don’t know what can be done or if anything can but the speeders are ruining dungeon runs and the game in general for many people who actually want to play wow.[/b]

So, what exactly is doing wow different in regards of speedrunning?

Care to elaborate?

Pixiepumpkin

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/

Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/

In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.

So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.

I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.

The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.

Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.

Ignore the facts as much as you want. The official wow forums are more trustworthy imo:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/speed-running-dungeons-needs-to-end/1683426

I ignored nothing. If blizzard has made changes to their dungeons (which appears to be the case based on the commentary) then they are heading in the wrong direction. At least no ones quests are getting interrupted .

[bI am sure this will be an unpopular opinion and get me insults, As a healer and a dps I am so sick of the tanks and some dps just rushing on through dungeons. I don’t think we should go super slow but let people catch up instead of dying just so you can prove that you’re fast and can’t add 2+2 together to figure out why you keep dying. I don’t know what can be done or if anything can but the speeders are ruining dungeon runs and the game in general for many people who actually want to play wow.[/b]

So, what exactly is doing wow different in regards of speedrunning?

Care to elaborate?
[/quote]

They did not allow it in the old days. Appears speed running started when they implemented mythic runs. Bad design. The pacing should be set that the majority of players are allowed to have fun. If this means the speed runners have to be more patient, then so be it.

Neiska

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The issue is not premades or pugs or personal attitudes or mean people or anything inbetween. The issue is literally the way the content is designed.

Most of the issues surrounding speed runners/fake tanks/not enough tanks etc revolve around the fact that the content was designed in such a way that these things are allowed to happen.

A designer can literally shape the content to quell every single issue we see in dungeons. It just takes the experience or will to do so.

Of course this is exactly the issue.

If dungeon-design were an issue (it isn't), all participants had problems with dungeoneering. But that's not the case, all complaints regarding role distribution/"fake roles" originate from pugs.

Of course the toxic players, which make dungeon finder a bad place, refuse to acknowledge this issue and blame everyone else for their bad experience.

No, you have it backwards. This is not up for debate. The content can literally be designed to prohibit OR enact how a player behaves. I have done it.

What's up for debate is not for you to decide.

The content of course is designed in a specific way. In eso that means letting the group decide how they distribute the various "roles" in group, while classic trinity is an option but not mandatory. This is how this game was sold, call it an unique selling point (although other games like swtor also removed the necessity of trinity-roles from normal modes). Nothing wrong with that.

Then we have the reward structure, which is more of a problem: Currently it's incentivized to run random normal dungeons at high speed while perfectly overgeared on as many characters as possible per day. Then convert the gained transmutes into nirncrux and get rich.

You want rnd to be solely a place for questers and players learning their roles? Then the "veteran currency" transmutes must not be handed out for doing rng. Then this queue will be as empty as before transmutes were added.

and that design is what has led to what happens in dungeons. Had it been done differently, I would argue properly, these issues would not take place.

Speedrunning also happens in swtor, wow, gw2 and many other games besides them having a different game design than eso. Here a few examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/18iztwc/flashpoint_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/12c3011/i_genuinely_believe_that_the_sweaty_speedrunning/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/103y0ya/people_way_too_fast/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1358rba/are_all_dungeons_this_hectic/

Most other games also have issues with providing enough tanks for pugs. Look for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/syprjh/why_tank_is_constantly_the_role_in_need/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/yveg5l/the_tank_shortage/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/n4vpay/why_does_pf_always_lack_tanks_ex_savage_when_its/

In any single game, which provides "trinity-roles", we have the very same complaints and the very same discussions and reasonings like around here. Most of them are talking about pugs regardless of game.

So, no, it's not the game design. It's the pugs.

I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. WOW proves my point 100x over and has for 20 years. If those other games have speed running issues, then its based on their dungeon design, just like ESO.

The design of the dungeon sets the pace for the dungeon. If there is a speed running issue, its the designers fault, not the players. Players will abuse anything they are allowed to abuse and one of the designers jobs is to work around the fact that players are going to do whatever they can to break the game. Speed running, keeping new players from engaging in the content in a meaningful way is breaking the game.

Changes to how dungeons operate, will change this issue. Its actually a pretty simple solve.

I have to agree with Braffen. Wow doesn't prove anything. It isn't the first game to have tanks, or even dungeons. Even games without "dungeons" often have difficulty with the "durable" class.

But at least in other games there is a level of risk involved. The squishes here, are not that squishy at all. Not if you compare the DPS outputs. A DPS can do over 10 times the DPS a tank can be, and still be 60% as tough. Which is enough for most content for them to just slot one heal skill and just pewpewpew.

So, no. I respect your opinion, but disagree. Its not "dungeon design" issue. With ESO in particular, pretty much everything revolves around DPS as centric, and everything is balanced from that, at least from where I sit. Which is not "dungeon design."

Lets play hypothetical here. Lets say for a moment they made a very hard dungeon, where people actually had to CC, go group to group, that enemies hit hard enough that would make even a DPS think twice. Know what I would expect to happen? People would run it once, then leave group anytime they got it in the random group finder. How do I know? Because people already leave group if they get a dungeon that takes too long. It isn't dungeon design, its class balance, and perhaps on some peoples part, impatience and inconsideration for other people.

Necrotech_Master

Heelie wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Even if you argue that this is a "crime". It's for the most part a victimless one since they for the most part make the dungeon finish quicker.

But this my problem. They never speed anything up, even on normal mode and base game vet mode. Both times recently actively slowing everyone else down.

Well, that is obviously not true yesterday I fake tanked a dungeon and did 90% of group dps + holding agro, this group would have cleared much slower with a tank in full tank setup.

the "holding aggro" is the thing a lot of fake tanks cant/dont do, which is what people are mainly complaining about

if your "fake tanking" but you have a taunt, and can take enough dmg that your not running around the room like a chicken with your head cut off, then you are fine, theres nothing "wrong" per se with that kind of fake tanking IMO because your still fulfilling the role of tank properly

the fake tanks people complain about are the 18k hp dps running no food, no armor buffs (so 8-12k resistances), no taunt, and the moment the boss focuses on them they start kiting, which pulls the boss and adds out of the aoes