Do you consider normal Trials to be endgame content?

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

I see it as this:

Casual - Overland questing, housing, crafting, fishing, ToT... basically anything that can be done solo because there is no level of (combat) difficulty involved.

Leveling - Characters below max level that are usually focused on reaching CP 160.

Endgame - Content for CP 160 and above that offers more of a challenge than overland, and is normally group oriented and instanced, such as dungeons and trials and group arenas.

Vulkunne

Normal trials are not endgame content

Normal Trials are there so you can measure your abilities before trying out vet.

Some are great for casual nights.

CP5

Normal trials are not endgame content

The definition of endgame being anything beyond no combat difficulty/leveling to cp 160 cast way too wide of a net, in my opinion.

Cazador

Normal trials are not endgame content

I wouldn't consider them endgame content, but i would consider them midgame

ApoAlaia

Normal trials are not endgame content

Our primarily trading guilds organise normal trial runs as a fun, chill thing to do with no skill, gear(*) or experience requirements whatsoever.

It is tradition to do 'blind' runs of the new trials too (where no one has the foggiest and we all find out together).

Everyone knows that housing is the real endgame anyway

(*) The exception to this are nekkid runs in which 'no armour' is enforced.

Galiferno

Normal trials are not endgame content

Normal trials require no endgame skills or knowledge and don't teach anything endgame related. They're closer in difficulty to normal basegame dungeons than any vet or beyond trial.

Estin

Normal trials are not endgame content

They're mid game. ~90% of all normal trials I do are successful. The 10% that fail are either due too many players with low DPS, or an inexperienced tank. They're slightly above the difficulty of 4 player dungeons just because some mechanics are too involved for most players like MoL Twins and AS Olms, but every other trial feels like a 4 player dungeon with more people. Endgame doesn't start until you do something that has veteran level difficulty minus most if not all base game 4 player dungeons.

UGotBenched91

I hate to be that person (the eso forums have corrupted me) but it depends on what your endgame is. For me, I have no interest in vet trials because I don’t think the rewards are worth that time so I’d say if looking at pve then yeah trials can be endgame.

Dragonnord

Normal trials are not endgame content

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

I hate to be that person (the eso forums have corrupted me) but it depends on what your endgame is. For me, I have no interest in vet trials because I don’t think the rewards are worth that time so I’d say if looking at pve then yeah trials can be endgame.

No, it doens't depend on what it is for you. It just is what it is.

If I say that the Earth is flat, it doesn't matter what it is to me. It's not flat.

So endgame is what it is too, regardless some obstinate people say it's "flat".
 

Vonnegut2506

Normal trials are not endgame content

If you can jump into a pug with 11 other random strangers and finish it in less than 30 minutes with the only death being someone falling off a cliff, it is not endgame.

Tommy_The_Gun

Normal trials are endgame content

If you have to optimize & min/max - then it is an "End Game" imho.

Trials and group arenas, do not have MM / group finder. The only way to do them is to join a guild or try "player made" activity finder. And it very often means that you are being inspected what class are you, what sets do you have etc, so it is gatekeeping you form clearing the instance at least once. It is same as Ball Groups / Group play in PvP. You are being asked to use specific gear/skills/class etc or we don't want you in the group.

TheMajority

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is why I consider them entry level endgame because it's the place to get our feet wet and see if it interests us. The difficulty may not be there but it is still 12 man group content.

If you borrow a tennis racket and take a trial lesson to find out whether you like the sport, would you consider that "tennis endgame"?

Tennis doesn't have endgame. Tennis can be learned from an early age or later in life. Age doesn't matter, like level does for MMOs.

The people who play Olympic level tennis would like to have a word with you.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

TheMajority wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is why I consider them entry level endgame because it's the place to get our feet wet and see if it interests us. The difficulty may not be there but it is still 12 man group content.

If you borrow a tennis racket and take a trial lesson to find out whether you like the sport, would you consider that "tennis endgame"?

Tennis doesn't have endgame. Tennis can be learned from an early age or later in life. Age doesn't matter, like level does for MMOs.

The people who play Olympic level tennis would like to have a word with you.

Olympic Tennis does not translate to endgame in an MMO.

spartaxoxo

Normal trials are not endgame content

Dragonnord wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

I hate to be that person (the eso forums have corrupted me) but it depends on what your endgame is. For me, I have no interest in vet trials because I don’t think the rewards are worth that time so I’d say if looking at pve then yeah trials can be endgame.

No, it doens't depend on what it is for you. It just is what it is.

If I say that the Earth is flat, it doesn't matter what it is to me. It's not flat.

So endgame is what it is too, regardless some obstinate people say it's "flat".
 

While I don't personally view things the same way, what constitutes endgame isn't a scientific fact.

For example here's an online definition of endgame, as it relates to video games.

The gameplay available in mostly massively multiplayer online role-playing games for characters that have completed/nearly completed their level progression

And OP defines it as content meant for CP160+ and then offers more of a challenge than overland. CP160 is the end of the level progression for gear.

That's well within a standard definition of endgame, even though it's not the definition I would use, or most of the people here.

At the end of the day, what is considered endgame varies not only from game to game, but also within the community itself.

I personally don't agree with the OP's definition of endgame, but it's just not the same thing as believing the Earth is flat.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

Since there is no concrete definition for endgame, I am basing my opinion on what I've seen it defined as over many years of gaming in many different MMOs. And instanced group content for max level characters was consistently referred to as endgame.

CP5

Normal trials are not endgame content

But, that means everything from BC1 on normal to, whatever the newest trial's trifecta is called are all the same. People have been mentioning 'midgame' because, most of the time, games progress from simple to more complex, from easy to more challenging, and people go through a gradient, and just getting cp160 gear isn't the same as being ready for the hardest content the game has to offer, which is 'the end game,' or, 'the place at the end of the players progression where their skills and what they learned are tested'.

AvalonRanger

Normal trials are not endgame content

Normal Trial is trial training contents.

spartaxoxo

Normal trials are not endgame content

CP5 wrote: »

But, that means everything from BC1 on normal to, whatever the newest trial's trifecta is called are all the same. People have been mentioning 'midgame' because, most of the time, games progress from simple to more complex, from easy to more challenging, and people go through a gradient, and just getting cp160 gear isn't the same as being ready for the hardest content the game has to offer, which is 'the end game,' or, 'the place at the end of the players progression where their skills and what they learned are tested'.

I agree with this. I actually think even within the categories of "normal trials" there's also clear progression in difficulty too. Like Normal AA is easier than Normal Rockgrove.

I remember a long time ago I made a tier list of content based on how I saw the content scale.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/585467/you-rank-the-difficulty-of-the-content-in-this-game-what-is-your-tier-list

TheMajority

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Since there is no concrete definition for endgame, I am basing my opinion on what I've seen it defined as over many years of gaming in many different MMOs. And instanced group content for max level characters was consistently referred to as endgame.

Max level is 3600.

You don't have to be max level 3600 to do any content in ESO.

Especially not the easiest normal trials.

KlauthWarthog

I do not think ESO has an actual endgame, as far as combat content is concerned. If you are progging something, well, that is not endgame. And if you are score-pushing, it only matters if there is competition. And the combat team has made sure to chase that population out of the building.

Dragonnord

Normal trials are not endgame content

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If you have to optimize & min/max - then it is an "End Game" imho.

That's like saying a Halloween role play costumes contest is endgame because you have to dye and dress up like they say in the rules or you can't participate.

Btw, no one is asking to optimize or mix/max anything to go to normal.
 

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

TheMajority wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Since there is no concrete definition for endgame, I am basing my opinion on what I've seen it defined as over many years of gaming in many different MMOs. And instanced group content for max level characters was consistently referred to as endgame.

Max level is 3600.

You don't have to be max level 3600 to do any content in ESO.

Especially not the easiest normal trials.

Actually Max level is 50. That is Max CP.

Araneae6537

Normal trials are not endgame content

The Craglorn trials especially are super chill easy group fun on normal. Some guilds do naked runs, I’ve had guild runs where everyone brings the same class or the hilarious all pets run where you bring sorc or warden and pet proccing sets and have a stampede chasing the boss!

FabresFour

Normal trials are not endgame content

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If you have to optimize & min/max - then it is an "End Game" imho.

Trials and group arenas, do not have MM / group finder. The only way to do them is to join a guild or try "player made" activity finder. And it very often means that you are being inspected what class are you, what sets do you have etc, so it is gatekeeping you form clearing the instance at least once. It is same as Ball Groups / Group play in PvP. You are being asked to use specific gear/skills/class etc or we don't want you in the group.

but this type of stuff only happens in veteran trials groups, not in the normal ones

hell, It's like people said, "naked runs" keep happening in normal trials, and normally normal trial groups appear in the group finder that have NO requirements, even "no level" as requirement lol

Araneae6537

Normal trials are not endgame content

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the real issue is whether or not Trials are endgame content, it's more that they are a distinctive part of the game that a lot of players choose not to participate in, as is the case with things like ToT, dueling, battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and fishing. We all like different aspects of the game, and some things we devote a lot of time to, some things we may just dabble in from time to time, and other things we may have zero interest in and just not do at all.

Trials are a classic example of the different approaches players have to certain content, for some they are a main interest, for some they're an occasional interest, and for others they hold no interest at all and will never be done. In the same way, some players will do Trials throughout the game, some will do them as part of their endgame, and other players won't do them at any stage of their game.

This exactly!

Some people really don’t want to PVP, regardless of the perimeters. Some people hate to do surveys and want ZOS to do away with them one way or another. Trials are content designed for a group of 12, but can be done with fewer, just like dungeons are designed for a group of 4 but also can be done with one or two, depending on specific mechanics like switches and pressure plates.

Dungeons, trials, PVP, housing, collecting, and more things I’m failing to think of can all be end game in the sense that it’s the ultimate goal or goals that you’re working toward.

Lemurejo

Normal trials are endgame content

Sure,Even run them in his "Easy" way needs skill and a basic know of the mechanics the trial has

Turtle_Bot

Normal trials are not endgame content

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The Craglorn trials especially are super chill easy group fun on normal. Some guilds do naked runs, I’ve had guild runs where everyone brings the same class or the hilarious all pets run where you bring sorc or warden and pet proccing sets and have a stampede chasing the boss!

omg, this would hilarious to see.

I still remember some of the meme runs I've done with guilds in PvP, pets only, werewolves only, leaping DKs only, they have been some of the most fun I've had in this game. One particular werewolf night we had the guild leader not as a werewolf and they were taking their doggos for a walk through cyro

peacenote

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

I hate to be that person (the eso forums have corrupted me) but it depends on what your endgame is. For me, I have no interest in vet trials because I don’t think the rewards are worth that time so I’d say if looking at pve then yeah trials can be endgame.

I do agree with you. I did a quick search on this and found a few interesting definitions and discussions:

• https://reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/12oqz9g/what_is_endgame_in_mmorpgs/
• https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/endgame
• https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/323716/what-is-your-definition-of-end-game-in-an-mmorpg

Do you view endgame as content to do once your character is done leveling, the state described when you've run out of new content, challenging content that can only be met with good gear and coordinated groups, repeatable content after you complete the structured content, or something else? Because I see all of these explanations and more.

Personally I believe that trial content, even normals, meets most definitions of "endgame," including the fact that it is repeatable content, you can obtain gear in them to help you progress to harder dungeons, trials, and arenas, and you can't waltz in on your own on a level 15 character and solo the content. I also suspect that ZOS would consider it endgame content, and that it was designed and added to the game with this intent. Finally, I would say that, given all of the various definitions, I would lean even further towards normal trials being end game content because many definitions of endgame have absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

So from that perspective, not only does it matter how one defines endgame to answer this poll, but it also matters why it is being asked. Since some MMO players view housing and repeatable daily quests as end game content, if the purpose of this poll is to gauge how "hard" the general community views this content to be, determining whether it is defined as "endgame" does not accomplish this. If the purpose of this poll is to gauge how "accessible" the general community views normal trials to be, the term "endgame" doesn't accomplish this either.

What it does establish, based on the variety of explanations with the answers, is that we don't have a consistent definition of "endgame" within the community. Which makes sense and aligns with the discussions about "what is endgame for an MMORPG" in general.

Another thing to keep in mind, with regards to normal trials, is that I don't think it is fair to say that a low level character can participate in a normal trial and succeed, so it's not endgame, if we are defining endgame as being "difficult" content. The content should be judged by if people could successfully clear it if ALL participants were not fully leveled. Is it easy to beat a normal trial with twelve new players attempting this on their first characters, all of which were level 30 or lower? Or whatever the minimum level allowed in a normal trial is! That's a more "fair" way to judge a normal trial than judging if the content could be cleared with one level 10 character while the rest of the players are experienced and geared for hard mode trials. I mean, that's a carry. That does not mean the content isn't difficult for average players at all. It just means it's not an arena, where a player must beat it alone.

Now, because of power creep, the floor and the ceiling of both the players in the community and the content is so broad, that there is an argument to be made that not only are normal trials fairly accessible and therefore no longer meet the definition of endgame (again, only if endgame for you means difficult content), but in that case, I'd argue that the ESO landscape is so broad that you can't lump all normal trials together to determine this. Not all veteran dungeons are equal. Not all veteran trials are equal. Not all normal trials are equal either. They all ramp up in difficulty, such that for many definitions of endgame you'd probably need to say that only certain normal trials (like Crag ones) are no longer endgame.

Anyway, I would probably vote endgame, since this is repeatable content outside of the initial structured story, requiring many people to participate and some level of coordination, that typically isn't attempted until characters are leveled, from the perspective of a new member of the community joining and leveling a character for the first time... and I'm a bit of an old school MMO person who considers group content to be endgame... but I'm hesitant to do so because my declaring normal trials as "endgame" based on my definition does not necessarily mean I think that normal trials are inaccessible, too easy, too hard, unfairly weighted in endeavors, some type of skill measurement for players, or anything along those lines. Endgame, at least for the purposes of this poll, would need to be defined so I know what viewpoint I'm supporting.

oldbobdude

Normal trials are endgame content

My opinion is normals are end game for casuals. I’m sure min/maxers will consider their endgame vet trials and progression groups.

Soarora

Normal trials are not endgame content

On the topic of what endgame is, I think it’s not level 50 or level 160 but the level in which you have all passives and 4 cp stars in each constellation. That is the turning point for a lot of people. That’s when you can reach maximum parses, be at your maximum tankiness, heal the group the best, and generally when people stop caring about grinding CP. It’s basically the functional max level.

By that definition, normal trials still aren’t endgame and neither are veteran trials for those tend to just require cp 160 to have maxxed gear. (I consider learning runs in veteran trials and dungeons to be late midgame while casually running veteran content to be early endgame.)