Do you consider normal Trials to be endgame content?

CP5

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

The term “end game” used to mean something. This isn’t a new problem — I’ve been seeing people skewing the definition of end game to fit whatever they want it to fit since at least 2010 or so. It coincides with the increasing casualization of all MMOs (not just this one). As an old school MMORPG player, it’s pretty dang annoying.

I'm old school too and I'm basing my definition of endgame on how it was always defined in other games I've played.

But as has been said, there is no concrete definition for what endgame is so all we have are our perspectives.

Question, what games broadly label entire content brackets as end game, and do those games offer that type of content at a wide range of difficulties? If a game, say, only had trials at one fixed level, requiring players to be at max level to participate, that'd be one thing. But ESO battle levels brings any players below level 50 up to a fixed standard, so long as they keep their gear up to their level, and the normal difficulty was explicitly made to allow players outside the demographic who would push into end game to have a way to engage with content they otherwise would not. See my other post again asking why entire content pools should be labeled X or Y, when the difficulty of the content heavily impacts what pool it should be put in.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The question I have is, if instanced group content for max level characters is the definition of end game, but dungeons offer content to players openly down to level 10, are dungeons end game? If not, how come trials are all lumped together?

I personally don't consider dungeons as endgame because they can easily be accessed by all levels of players and are good experience when leveling. Plus they offer skill points when completing their quests which is important when leveling. Trials are for larger groups and are where max level players go for a challenge.

Some may not find a normal trial to be a challenge, but some do. And regardless of the difficulty level they are all still trials and the same type of content.

But then, by the binary label, dungeons are casual content. Tell me how a Frostvault trifecta, a speed run, hard mode, no death, involving a very demanding timed maze section is casual content? All dungeons are dungeons, yes, but not all dungeons are a good experience when leveling, and you don't go to Frostvault to get a trifecta achievement until you're at end game. Not all dungeons are casual. Not all dungeons are end game. They contain difficulty levels that allow the dungeons to cater to different difficulty levels and interest. Same goes for trials.

That just comes back to the same question of how endgame is defined. Is it defined by type of content or difficulty level? There is no clear answer.

CP5

Normal trials are not endgame content

By being the content where players go to express their mastery of the games systems. The end game is the end of the growth cycle players have in any particular type of content, where player skill and knowledge is put to the test. This involves things like getting better times in racing games, defeating powerful enemies without being hit in combat games. In one game I learned about recently, the end game is the games most challenging platforming course followed by a gauntlet where you fight one of each enemy in the game back to back, both as a means to show your mastery of the game. It is the capstone to the journey many players go on, and repeated attempts at end game content are to either achieve clearing it, or to improve your execution of it, the learning and growing part is pretty much finished by that point.

So, if dungeons aren't end game content, and content is only casual or end game, then Frostvault trifecta's are casual content by that definition. That is why I feel that way of labeling things is poor, as it fails to account for the mild impact that the difficulty of the content has on the audience that it attracts, and why it attracts them.

Your definition has to work around this obstacle, because if all dungeons are end game, a dungeon for a level 10 player is end game. If dungeons are casual, then those highly demanding clears are casual. If dungeons are more nuanced than that, then how aren't trials? And if trials are more nuanced than all X or Y, then it is possible some trials act as a way to onboard new players into 12 man pve content.

spartaxoxo

Normal trials are not endgame content

CP5 wrote: »

In ESO, you have housing. You begin housing likely with a small simple house, furnished haphazardly with basic items. As you delve deeper into housing, you get a better idea on how to cleverly use props to make interesting scenes, in larger homes, with more detailed embellishments. An End Game houser can combine different props to make entirely new ones, remodel homes so that they are unrecognizable from what they started out as, going far beyond what anyone else can make in a house. If you've ever visited one of these expert home furnishers, you'll understand the quality bar I'm referring to on this.

A bit of tangent but I loved seeing this part of the post because I always felt like housing has a early and endgame too haha. And for precisely the reason you described. But I think a lot of people don't break housing down in that way. LOL

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is an opinion, not a fact.

It's an opinion that normal trials are end game content. The fact is that normal trials are very casual, and most definately not end game content. Anyone can easily complete a normal trial. That means it's not end game content.

You created a poll and asked the question directly. 75% of respondents have stated that normal trials are not end game content.

Since there is no concrete definition, both views are nothing but opinions. More players may believe one way than the other, but that doesn't make it a fact.

This is probably the most accurate statement I have seen in this thread concerning what is end-game content.

Some look at Cyrodiil as end-game content even though we can start playing it at level 10. I do not recall seeing any campaign ever locked to level 50 characters.

Others may consider the content to be challenging. Well, some consider only a few Vet HM trials to be challenging while others find normal trials or vet base game dungeons to be a challenge.

What someone enjoys doing after leveling up a character is great for them but no one defines what is end game for them.

reazea

Normal trials are not endgame content

Just because some people can't complete the content doesn't mean it's end game. Normal trials are very, very easy, even for beginners.

MorganaBlue

Normal trials are not endgame content

That just comes back to the same question of how endgame is defined. Is it defined by type of content or difficulty level? There is no clear answer.

you keep repeating this, so I ask, what on earth is the point of your poll, then? And more to the point...why did you vote on it and supposedly answer your own question, while further insisting that there is no answer?

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content because now i must admit veteran trials are among the most boring content imaginable now, vet dungeons still rock though. how others dont get bored mulling through the same trial..trial after trial i'll never know

Soarora

Normal trials are not endgame content

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content becausue now i must admit veteran trials are among the most boring content imaginable now, vet dungeons still rock though. how others dont get bored mulling through the same trial..trial after trial i'll never know

Not all content is for everyone. I solidly believe dungeon endgame is different than trial endgame. There's people who do both but I also personally know people who far prefer one or the other. I'll always be a dungeon endgamer first, trial second.

colossalvoids

Normal trials are not endgame content

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content

Why does it matter though?

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content

Why does it matter though?

not sure what you mean.. do you teach the trials normal or veteran trials to your guild ? or do you throw everyone into veteran diffuculty call in end game and not look back ?

colossalvoids

Normal trials are not endgame content

Daoin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content

Why does it matter though?

not sure what you mean.. do you teach the trials normal or veteran trials to your guild ? or do you throw everyone into veteran diffuculty call in end game and not look back ?

It's a question, how normals not being endgame is a bad thing?
When I was doing trials we've learned them in vet, then proceeded to HM and trifecta was the last logical step there, not sure what you're trying to ask exactly. It's not like you need some contend be called "endgame" to enjoy it on normal, it's here for the people who might not want to dip their toes in challenging modes at the time.

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content

Why does it matter though?

not sure what you mean.. do you teach the trials normal or veteran trials to your guild ? or do you throw everyone into veteran diffuculty call in end game and not look back ?

It's a question, how normals not being endgame is a bad thing?
When I was doing trials we've learned them in vet, then proceeded to HM and trifecta was the last logical step there, not sure what you're trying to ask exactly. It's not like you need some contend be called "endgame" to enjoy it on normal, it's here for the people who might not want to dip their toes in challenging modes at the time.

contend ? not sure what you mean. so you did trials past tense and no longer play eso ? but sure yes i guess you could totally skip normal trials and still be able to comment on those as not being a part of that endame you did from vet to hm to trifecta. logically i mean

colossalvoids

Normal trials are not endgame content

Daoin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

well its pretty sad if normal trials are not among endgame content

Why does it matter though?

not sure what you mean.. do you teach the trials normal or veteran trials to your guild ? or do you throw everyone into veteran diffuculty call in end game and not look back ?

It's a question, how normals not being endgame is a bad thing?
When I was doing trials we've learned them in vet, then proceeded to HM and trifecta was the last logical step there, not sure what you're trying to ask exactly. It's not like you need some contend be called "endgame" to enjoy it on normal, it's here for the people who might not want to dip their toes in challenging modes at the time.

contend ? not sure what you mean. so you did trials past tense and no longer play eso ? but sure yes i guess you could totally skip normal trials and still be able to comment on those as not being a part of that endame you did from vet to hm to trifecta

Reading carefully might hint that it probably meant content, but was autocorrected with d. So you can answer now safely, what's bad about it?

I'm currently playing on pceu, you welcome to check on me in Blackreach campaign if that matters 😀.Trials past tense as I'm not doing trials periodically since couple of years but only occasionally. Had my fair share of both normals and vets though out the years, so I'm safe to comment on things I have some idea about, dw.

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

oh so you did learn the trials in vet before doing normal ? i dont mind saying im getting pretty lost here. and it was not past tense you actually still go to trials then ? lets slow it down a bit to work through what is being said. and so now is it the normal trials you did after the vet trials you do or just normal ? and how does PvP fit into are normal trials endgame scenerio ? are you saying its PvP that is the only end game ? because i really dislike eso's pvp and if after the 8 or somethings years since its intro im still nowehere near max level (pvp rank) then i guess..no endgame for me

colossalvoids

Normal trials are not endgame content

Daoin wrote: »

oh so you did learn the trials in vet before doing normal ? i dont mind saying im getting pretty lost here. and it was not past tense you actually still go to trials then ? lets slow it down a bit to work through what is being said

Since Elsweyr for me yeah, as there was no need to start with normal for anything and I had a group with certain aims to accomplish. And obviously doing normal afterwards making people already know the content in a way, though you always surprised that normal lacks half the mechanics. And yet again you can re-read on forums to get the idea what's being told, it's not gonna disappear:)

Can answer all your questions and guide you though about veteran content and beyond if you want, but this thread might be locked because it's gone off topic.

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

thanks for the offer not often someone can really offer genuine real in game experience via forum but dont believe i need any concerning PvE thanks wether i know it all or i just tell myself that i do its all good ! you good to pm me though if you need a group for anything aslong as its not PvP more boring than even vet trials now. oh that and elswyre must be one the only zones i have not completed also..rarely go there in the early days maybe when guilds still found zone runs fun and delves and public dungeons challenging i did a bit there othrwise its just the occasional dragon kill now for rhuem which is surely alot better than turning myself to dust catching it in ToT. to me it would be more of an opinion than guide though like the answers here on the post. doubt it will be closed any time soon for slipping off track. also none of my other real life friends play eso so i was pretty much like everyone else at the time..doing things on my own and still im here but none of them seem to be all these years later in eso...still relying on myself and thinking for myself

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

MorganaBlue wrote: »

That just comes back to the same question of how endgame is defined. Is it defined by type of content or difficulty level? There is no clear answer.

you keep repeating this, so I ask, what on earth is the point of your poll, then? And more to the point...why did you vote on it and supposedly answer your own question, while further insisting that there is no answer?

There are conflicting opinions over this topic. This poll is to discover how players perceive normal trials and why they see them the way they do. Of course I provided my own feedback.

Through reading all the feedback it became evident that there is no clear answer.

Toanis

Normal trials are endgame content

In other MMOs current raids take an organized group weeks and hundreds of wipes to beat the last boss, and by the time you have the raid on farm mode, and do shenanigans like undermanning or speed runs, the next one is about to be released.

Been there, done that. Once you decide you have better things to do with your life than coordinating it with 19 people on the internet, you wait for guides and play the "rebalanced" content in a pug. Nonetheless that's still endgame, you continue to play (and pay) long after you would have moved on with a single player game.

In ESO trials are few and far between, and need to be accessible to more players from the get go, so the challenge to work on isn't finishing before the next raid is relased and the current one is nerfed, but no-death speed runs.

So let's go a step further: Do you consider non-trifecta runs to be endgame content?

TiberX

Normal trials are not endgame content

Nooonnoooo no no noooo lol

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

im pretty sure alot of people used to consider the fishing the end game scene but with guild chats being pretty much dead now and wtb crowns the most interesting thing to see in area chat and group chat usually lf some sort of gear i cant be sure if it still is even the misc section on group finder has become the de facto wtb crowns place now

Czeri

Normal trials are endgame content

Heh, the split is pretty obvious:

- people who run trials - normal trials are NOT endgame!
- people who don't run trials - trials are absolutely endgame!

Getting 12 people together only got easy recently thanks to the group finder. Before then you had to join a guild, and sign-up for a trial, or stand around Craglorn hoping a pug would form in the chat for the trial you wanted...

Rkindaleft

Normal trials are not endgame content

Toanis wrote: »

So let's go a step further: Do you consider non-trifecta runs to be endgame content?

Well yeah, because the difficulty of trials isn’t at a set level across the board so when people here say that normal raids should be considered endgame because it’s the same content it doesn’t make any sense, because the only thing that’s the same is the name of the trial and the fact that you run with a group of 12 players. 99% of mechanics can be ignored and if you ignore them you don’t get punished for it, mechanics that would normally one shot you on veteran don’t so for people who only do normal trials there isn’t a point in learning them properly. Veteran adds more mechanics to fights and an additional layer of difficulty which normal doesn’t have, and hard mode adds even more mechanics compared to what veteran offers.

I remember when DSR released I think there was maybe just a single EU group who managed to get a Lylanar+Turlassil HM kill (not even a full trial clear) on PTS before the trial got nerfed before live and to this day Dreadsail’s HM alongside Rockgrove’s HM are something that 99.9% of players in the game will never achieve, much less their trifectas - and yet people are saying that this is comparable to a normal Hel Ra?

Braffin

Normal trials are not endgame content

Toanis wrote: »

So let's go a step further: Do you consider non-trifecta runs to be endgame content?

Yeah, let's go a step further:

A lot of players consider housing endgame, as almost every content offers furniture, enormous amounts of resources and coin (in-game and RL) are necessary, whole houses are built from scratch (not just decorated) and competitive contests are held.

So, is it endgame if I buy myself a room in an inn and put a bed in there?

Because that's housing too.

Daoin

Normal trials are endgame content

Narp

moderatelyfatman

I consider endgame when you can complete content at any difficulty without needing to learn new mechanics. It doesn't mean you have reached the limit of your ability and can't get better.

Charon_on_Vacation

for me, it wasn't endgame content, but everyone has decide for him/herself what endgame content is.
for some its fashion, for others its housing, some people see pvp as their endgame, other do (vet) trials.
everything can be considered endgame, but not everything is endgame for every player.

FlopsyPrince

Normal trials are endgame content

Czeri wrote: »

Heh, the split is pretty obvious:

- people who run trials - normal trials are NOT endgame!
- people who don't run trials - trials are absolutely endgame!

Getting 12 people together only got easy recently thanks to the group finder. Before then you had to join a guild, and sign-up for a trial, or stand around Craglorn hoping a pug would form in the chat for the trial you wanted...

That is the problem.

Endgame to some is only "stuff they must struggle with" while everything else is "easy" no matter how challenging it is or may seem to be to others.

fizl101

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

Heh, the split is pretty obvious:

- people who run trials - normal trials are NOT endgame!
- people who don't run trials - trials are absolutely endgame!

Getting 12 people together only got easy recently thanks to the group finder. Before then you had to join a guild, and sign-up for a trial, or stand around Craglorn hoping a pug would form in the chat for the trial you wanted...

That is the problem.

Endgame to some is only "stuff they must struggle with" while everything else is "easy" no matter how challenging it is or may seem to be to others.

However challenging it is to herd 12 virtual cats together, that isn't the content. The normal trial itself is. Can it be daunting if you haven't grouped up for this kind of content before? Absolutely! But as you can go in with no personal knowledge of mechanics, without farmed specialised gear and no previous experience in trials and still be successful I still don't believe they count as end game