Do you consider normal Trials to be endgame content?

Amottica

Any content that requires the character to be level 50 is by definition end game content as lvl 50 is the highest level a character can obtain. CP is account-based, not character-based.

fizl101

Normal trials are not endgame content

Sheridan wrote: »

Yes, all trials are endgame content by definition. There is nothing beyond them. Endgame content, as everything else, can have different modes, but it's endgame nonetheless.

Based on the comments above, I guess many of those who clicked "no" were actually answering the question "Do you consider normal Trials to be difficult", which is not the same thing.

DreamyLu wrote: »

For me, from the moment we need a special equipment/set up to be able to participate in an activity of a more difficult level, it's end game.

Trials need a player to have reached max level, to to know well combat technics and to be properly equipped.

Me, average PvE player, if I go into a trial the way I'm equipped now, I die within the first 5 minutes and don't make any steps farther than that. I would have to invest into armor and weapons of a higher quality/level, with a specific skills combo that I need to learn how to manage for this purpose. That's end game for me.

Normal trials dont require specified setups or optimisation or to have reached cp160 which is why I dont think they are end game

To me if you have to invest significant time/ knowledge and skill (and possibly gold) its end game. Throwing some chests in a house -not end game. Building a fairytale castle from scratch with a pegasus on the roof - end game. Same with trials. Go in on under level 50 characters, naked, in roleplay sets for normal trials, not end game. Require a zenkosh, ec cro mk sorc etc for a speedrun on vet and a parse of 100k - end game

Reverb

Normal trials are not endgame content

Normal trials are faceroll easy. That’s not end game.

colossalvoids

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Sorry, but that is not valid. 2 bins is a reasonable division here, in the eyes of many players.

Of course many people at the top end do not see all of them as challenging, but they are not most of the population. They are an important group, just not the majority of players, almost by definition.

It's pretty much valid, as much as I remember myself playing ESO there always was a "midgame" divide when you're dipping your toes in group content.

Majority of the population lack any experience to have a valid opinion. I'd take one from the point of experience any day.

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

Soarora

Normal trials are not endgame content

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

While CP does improve performance it is not relevent to a player being at a level where they can access end-game content. CP does not even mean the player or character will perform well.

When I started this game about two years ago I was able to out-damage high CP DPS even though I was the healer and my only damage was coming from WoW and heavy attacks. At CP 160 I was superior to CP2k players, than two high CP players combined.

FlopsyPrince

Normal trials are endgame content

fizl101 wrote: »

Sheridan wrote: »

Yes, all trials are endgame content by definition. There is nothing beyond them. Endgame content, as everything else, can have different modes, but it's endgame nonetheless.

Based on the comments above, I guess many of those who clicked "no" were actually answering the question "Do you consider normal Trials to be difficult", which is not the same thing.

DreamyLu wrote: »

For me, from the moment we need a special equipment/set up to be able to participate in an activity of a more difficult level, it's end game.

Trials need a player to have reached max level, to to know well combat technics and to be properly equipped.

Me, average PvE player, if I go into a trial the way I'm equipped now, I die within the first 5 minutes and don't make any steps farther than that. I would have to invest into armor and weapons of a higher quality/level, with a specific skills combo that I need to learn how to manage for this purpose. That's end game for me.

Normal trials dont require specified setups or optimisation or to have reached cp160 which is why I dont think they are end game

To me if you have to invest significant time/ knowledge and skill (and possibly gold) its end game. Throwing some chests in a house -not end game. Building a fairytale castle from scratch with a pegasus on the roof - end game. Same with trials. Go in on under level 50 characters, naked, in roleplay sets for normal trials, not end game. Require a zenkosh, ec cro mk sorc etc for a speedrun on vet and a parse of 100k - end game

The claim of going in naked has been made, but what proves this? Even showing someone doing something close proves nothing unless you know how much that player understands the mechanics and ideas behind that Trial and Trials in general.

Soarora

Normal trials are not endgame content

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

While CP does improve performance it is not relevent to a player being at a level where they can access end-game content. CP does not even mean the player or character will perform well.

When I started this game about two years ago I was able to out-damage high CP DPS even though I was the healer and my only damage was coming from WoW and heavy attacks. At CP 160 I was superior to CP2k players, than two high CP players combined.

Of course, it doesn't mean a high level CP is going to be skilled, but in terms of what we're defining the highest level as, the last CP level that you really get anything out of makes the most sense. Besides, you need to be CP 300 to get into vDLC dungeons using group finder (at least, as far as others have said, I can't check this myself) so it's not totally irrelevant. I cannot get behind 50 being the divider.

Jaimeh

I think they are an early entry to endgame content in that they have group mechanics (no matter that even pug groups can out dps them nowadays) and that they require a player to perform their role in a way that other normal content does not. Also, I think people are overestimating casual groups, because some normal pug runs (thinking of AS+2/CR+3/HOF) can get really messy in a way that vet dungeons are not, so I don't think there's a straighforward comparison. As for true endgame, I would say any trial and DLC dungeon HM content, with trifectas being the pinnacle, but you gotta start somewhere.

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

While CP does improve performance it is not relevent to a player being at a level where they can access end-game content. CP does not even mean the player or character will perform well.

When I started this game about two years ago I was able to out-damage high CP DPS even though I was the healer and my only damage was coming from WoW and heavy attacks. At CP 160 I was superior to CP2k players, than two high CP players combined.

Of course, it doesn't mean a high level CP is going to be skilled, but in terms of what we're defining the highest level as, the last CP level that you really get anything out of makes the most sense. Besides, you need to be CP 300 to get into vDLC dungeons using group finder (at least, as far as others have said, I can't check this myself) so it's not totally irrelevant. I cannot get behind 50 being the divider.

This thread is not asking what is the highest-level content. It is not asking to define the highest level content. The question si very specific to what is end-game content which, by definition, is anything that requires a max-level character and that is level 50.

Heck, even the requirements GF places to queue for certain dungeons is not relevant as that has set a higher standard than just being able to access the content.

notyuu

Normal trials are endgame content

They are NOT the be all end all of end-game content, however they are still the start of it none the less

Soarora

Normal trials are not endgame content

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

While CP does improve performance it is not relevent to a player being at a level where they can access end-game content. CP does not even mean the player or character will perform well.

When I started this game about two years ago I was able to out-damage high CP DPS even though I was the healer and my only damage was coming from WoW and heavy attacks. At CP 160 I was superior to CP2k players, than two high CP players combined.

Of course, it doesn't mean a high level CP is going to be skilled, but in terms of what we're defining the highest level as, the last CP level that you really get anything out of makes the most sense. Besides, you need to be CP 300 to get into vDLC dungeons using group finder (at least, as far as others have said, I can't check this myself) so it's not totally irrelevant. I cannot get behind 50 being the divider.

This thread is not asking what is the highest-level content. It is not asking to define the highest level content. The question si very specific to what is end-game content which, by definition, is anything that requires a max-level character and that is level 50.

Heck, even the requirements GF places to queue for certain dungeons is not relevant as that has set a higher standard than just being able to access the content.

I didn’t say highest level content, I meant highest level character. Apologies for the lack of clarity. By the same token, if the GF having CP requirements means nothing (even though it goes to show you do not unlock everything at level 50, which is more evidence towards it not being max level) then so does any level, at least with normal content. I think you need to be level 50 to unlock veteran but veteran isn’t the point of this thread. You can walk into a normal dungeon or trial at level 10 and complete it. You may or may not have to be carried, but you can do it. Normal content isn’t endgame by any sense of the word. You don’t need to be max level, no matter where you set max level as.

Varana

Normal trials are not endgame content

Another question I have about this thread is what we are supposed to take away from this.
If someone defines normal trials one way or the other, what does that mean?

Until then, "endgame" is just a random word. This poll could've asked "do you consider normal trials to be rumblefuzz?" with the same informative value, i.e. none.

For the purpose of this argument, I want to consider "endgame" to start when reaching level 10. Which means that basically the whole game after the first half hour is "endgame".
And now? What follows from that? Why would someone care that I've used a blatantly ridiculous definition of this thread's main topic? Do words mean anything?


Does anything have meaning?


...

fizl101

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Sheridan wrote: »

Yes, all trials are endgame content by definition. There is nothing beyond them. Endgame content, as everything else, can have different modes, but it's endgame nonetheless.

Based on the comments above, I guess many of those who clicked "no" were actually answering the question "Do you consider normal Trials to be difficult", which is not the same thing.

DreamyLu wrote: »

For me, from the moment we need a special equipment/set up to be able to participate in an activity of a more difficult level, it's end game.

Trials need a player to have reached max level, to to know well combat technics and to be properly equipped.

Me, average PvE player, if I go into a trial the way I'm equipped now, I die within the first 5 minutes and don't make any steps farther than that. I would have to invest into armor and weapons of a higher quality/level, with a specific skills combo that I need to learn how to manage for this purpose. That's end game for me.

Normal trials dont require specified setups or optimisation or to have reached cp160 which is why I dont think they are end game

To me if you have to invest significant time/ knowledge and skill (and possibly gold) its end game. Throwing some chests in a house -not end game. Building a fairytale castle from scratch with a pegasus on the roof - end game. Same with trials. Go in on under level 50 characters, naked, in roleplay sets for normal trials, not end game. Require a zenkosh, ec cro mk sorc etc for a speedrun on vet and a parse of 100k - end game

The claim of going in naked has been made, but what proves this? Even showing someone doing something close proves nothing unless you know how much that player understands the mechanics and ideas behind that Trial and Trials in general.

I host naked trials amongst other themes with a social guild. I specifically state when i post sign ups no experience necessary and take players who have never been in before or describe themselves as trial noobs. Same with baby (under level 50) trials

Edit to add - throw people into anything they have never done before and they will need to learn and work out mechs, whether that is a delve, public dungeon or game of cards. A trial is no different in that aspect. You don't need to be in an expert in trials to run in normal trials

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

Varana wrote: »

Another question I have about this thread is what we are supposed to take away from this.
If someone defines normal trials one way or the other, what does that mean?

The question came up in another thread about this week's weekly endeavors not having a more casual and generalized choice. One choice was to do 4 trials. Some posters said that was the casual and more generalized option because they consider normal trials easy content. But others disagreed because they consider trials, even normal ones, endgame content.

I started this poll to specifically address how players perceive normal trials and why they do or don't consider them endgame content. There have been some very interesting explanations presented and hopefully players will understand each other's views better.

Varana

Normal trials are not endgame content

But if we set the bar for that "endgame" label low enough, then that still doesn't say anything. Again, if I label everything past level 10 "endgame", then having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine for the everyone. (Apart from the fact that having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine anyway.)

And that's the main point I take away from this: Apparently, people lump everything they don't want to do under "endgame" and then complain, regardles of how challenging or common that activity actually is.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

Varana wrote: »

But if we set the bar for that "endgame" label low enough, then that still doesn't say anything. Again, if I label everything past level 10 "endgame", then having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine for the everyone. (Apart from the fact that having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine anyway.)

I consider them endgame because of the type of content rather than the difficulty. I think it matters how players see this in regard to things like endeavors and what type they would be because having a balance of all playstyles is important.

My hope is that ZoS will consider all of our feedback for things such as this.

Varana wrote: »

Apparently, people lump everything they don't want to do under "endgame" and then complain, regardles of how challenging or common that activity actually is.

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

Braffin

Normal trials are not endgame content

Varana wrote: »

And that's the main point I take away from this: Apparently, people lump everything they don't want to do under "endgame" and then complain, regardles of how challenging or common that activity actually is.

Well said!

CP5

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

But if we set the bar for that "endgame" label low enough, then that still doesn't say anything. Again, if I label everything past level 10 "endgame", then having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine for the everyone. (Apart from the fact that having "endgame" endeavours is totally fine anyway.)

And that's the main point I take away from this: Apparently, people lump everything they don't want to do under "endgame" and then complain, regardles of how challenging or common that activity actually is.

I consider them endgame because of the type of content rather than the difficulty. I think it matters how players see this in regard to things like endeavors and what type they would be because having a balance of all playstyles is important.

My hope is that ZoS will consider all of our feedback for things such as this.

Dungeons have veteran versions and hard modes. Some dungeons are available from level 10. That logic would suggest all dungeons are 'end game.' But the 'end' of what? There is no progress where players start at one place, grow, then have an 'end game' to face. The whole journey isn't the end, and using the term so loosely does it a disservice at defining anything close to what it actually is. Normal trials are a good way to onboard people into ESO's 12 man PVE content, because people have to start somewhere, and that starting point isn't the end (game).

ArchMikem

Normal trials are endgame content

Difficulty doesn't matter, Trials have always been Endgame.

Varana

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

"Very easy endgame" is subjective.

Aurielle

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

"Very easy endgame" is subjective.

As has been explained and demonstrated to you multiple times, normal Craglorn trials are easy casual content. Any ultra casual PVE overland player in mismatched gear with zero knowledge of the trial mechanics can join a normal Craglorn trial pug and complete the endeavor with ease.

spartaxoxo

Normal trials are not endgame content

Aurielle wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

"Very easy endgame" is subjective.

As has been explained and demonstrated to you multiple times, normal Craglorn trials are easy casual content. Any ultra casual PVE overland player in mismatched gear with zero knowledge of the trial mechanics can join a normal Craglorn trial pug and complete the endeavor with ease.

Some people find grouping at all to be difficult. Anyone who finds overland combat to be difficult due to things like age and ping would probably find even normal crags to be difficult. I think most players would find Craglorn trials PUGs to be pretty easy, but not everyone. And that's totally valid to find it difficult. Difficulty is subjective.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Amottica wrote: »

Any content that requires the character to be level 50 is by definition end game content as lvl 50 is the highest level a character can obtain. CP is account-based, not character-based.

I have somewhat the same opinion. I consider any content that is played after chapter questing and leveling is complete as end game content. That means trials, other group content, housing, etc.

SilverBride

Normal trials are endgame content

Aurielle wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

"Very easy endgame" is subjective.

As has been explained and demonstrated to you multiple times, normal Craglorn trials are easy casual content. Any ultra casual PVE overland player in mismatched gear with zero knowledge of the trial mechanics can join a normal Craglorn trial pug and complete the endeavor with ease.

That is an opinion, not a fact.

SolarRune

Normal trials are not endgame content

I did my first normal trial with my guild at level 17 - so you don't need to be lvl 50+ to participate - that's part of why I don't consider it end-game content - players that have played the game <2m months can easily complete normal trials without knowing mechs or even the role they are doing well.

spartaxoxo

Normal trials are not endgame content

SolarRune wrote: »

I did my first normal trial with my guild at level 17 - so you don't need to be lvl 50+ to participate - that's part of why I don't consider it end-game content - players that have played the game <2m months can easily complete normal trials without knowing mechs or even the role they are doing well.

Yeah. My social guild has done naked runs and has also occasionally taken under level 50s through normal trials. We never had an issue. There are actually quests that direct you to the trial to show you where it's at and what it's about that you can take before level 50.

SaffronCitrusflower

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one has said that endgame content shouldn't be included for things such as endeavors. But there can't be a balance of endgame, PvP and more generalized content if there is no agreement of what these are.

But if difficulty has no bearing on whether an activity is "endgame" or not, then that means that "endgame" can be very casual and generalised content as well. Again, this makes the whole term useless for this purpose. Having three very easy "endgame" endeavours means that casual players will be able to do them as well.

"Very easy endgame" is subjective.

As has been explained and demonstrated to you multiple times, normal Craglorn trials are easy casual content. Any ultra casual PVE overland player in mismatched gear with zero knowledge of the trial mechanics can join a normal Craglorn trial pug and complete the endeavor with ease.

That is an opinion, not a fact.

It's an opinion that normal trials are end game content. The fact is that normal trials are very casual, and most definately not end game content. Anyone can easily complete a normal trial. That means it's not end game content.

You created a poll and asked the question directly. 75% of respondents have stated that normal trials are not end game content.