Hemorrhaging and Warden DPS.

ESO_Nightingale

Hi everyone, I wanted to make a post about Bleeds, Hemorrhaging and their relationship to Warden DPS. this post won't be as edited as i don't have much time to write tonight.


As of right now (week 2 on pts), this is my current DPS as a frost warden



As you can see, i've highlighted hemo proc and it's output.

Hemo is a significant portion of our damage output, now that it stacks up to 3 times and its production via Barbed trap is now heavily reduced, it calls bleed sources into question.

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Bleed and Frost damage are the 2 damage types most associated with Warden. Now that frost damage is in a lot more acceptable spot regarding frost wardens (not without its issues), bleeds and stamina based wardens feel lackluster and forgotten. the change to hemorrhaging feels like an eye opener to explore what bleeden builds could be about and what they currently lack. However, i must bring up the seperate topic that relates to this. Bleed Sources. Warden has 3 major hemorrhaging sources. Cutting Dive, Growing Swarm and the elephant, or bear in the room, Wild Guardian.

Wild Guardian:

such a large portion of the proc for hemorrhaging on warden is from wild guardian, which is actually a fairly large issue for multiple reasons.
Firstly, attaching so much damage to this morph of bear means that it nearly completely overshadows the other morph, Eternal Guardian, as well as other ultimates in pve situations. bear baseline does roughly 12% of our damage, with the additional hemo proc, it goes up to about 15% give or take. the damage this does is so vastly better than other ultimates that it seriously stifles build creation. Non Pet Sorcerers suffer a similar problem at the moment. pets vastly outperform any other option given to them and a lot of players feel like they're forced to play with them to compete in content. this issue extends to frost wardens. we have to run this bear morph as there is no frost damage counterpart to it to run instead. I would like to see the hemorrhaging proc rebalanced into Cutting Dive and Growing Swarm. As well as good portion of bear's damage rebalanced back into the kit.


Cutting Dive and warden passives:

Dive itself is a viable spammable that is often complained about due to it's clunky and slow nature. recently it was given a strong 10 second single target applied damage over time that applies at all times. This is great, however, a byproduct of this change, which i pushed, is that magicka wardens always run this morph in single target pve content. one of the most important reasons why we do this is because of our shocking sustain. simply put, warden's sustain is so bad right now that we are forced to run multiple stamina variants of animal companions skills because we cannot gain access to one of our major sustain passives without sacrificing a lot of damage. this passive is natures gift. which is stubbornly designed to be hard to access as a damage dealer that we cannot effectively use it. Lotus Blossom which is the only reasonable green balance skill we could use, simply does not offer anything to be worth slotting. not even for sustain which only works when healing allies. Detour aside, i feel as if this morph being used so heavily on magicka warden builds really stifles a bleeden identity, and i think that it is a shame that the line between frost wardens and bleed wardens is so blurred. everyone runs the same things. i think that cutting dive is one of those skills that should really define what type of warden you are playing. but as of right now, its just more damage that doesn't use magicka.

Bleed Enchantment?
Absorb health is a really good target to rework into a bleed damage enchantment, even if its direct damage portion is at a lower value. health absorbtion is very thematically fitting for bleed and it would allow every damage type to be able to be applied through enchantments.

i think it would be beneficial for the identity of warden builds, if warden's sustain issues were addressed at the same time as fleshing out stamina warden's bleed potential. with hemorrhaging reworked to heavily incentivise bleed stacking, i think now is the time to update warden's passives and give a passive bonus to bleed wardens that gives them a good reason to stack multiple bleeds. Hemorrhaging seems to have gone down in value across the board for so many classes, so i think its time that bleed wardens are able to take a stand and be strong.

I would love to see bleed stacking incentivised via warden's passives, as well as a rework given to natures gift and flourish. Though a larger ask is damage type standardisation between animal companions skills. this would significantly improve the gameplay experience of both bleed and frost warden playstyles.

merpins

I'll also present my thread on this matter, which I posted yesterday. It should contribute to this thread as well. This goes over the main painpoints of Stam Warden, at least a general overview. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652017/u41-stam-warden-discussion-thread#latest

Billium813

I'd say Bleed Sources is a bigger issue for non-Warden, non-Werewolf classes

Even with Barbed Trap AND Carve, it's impossible to maintain these new Hemorrhaging stacks. I'm only ever seeing 1-2 stacks; never 3; and that 1 stack is really just thanks to Barbed Trap. The percent chance to proc is so low and there just aren't enough sources of Bleed. This current change to Hemorrhaging is overall a nerf to everyone, except maybe sweaty Wardens who are struggling too.

I like the direction they are going with Hemorrhaging design: rewarding players that can sustain the damage and rotation with more stacks and more damage. It's a good theoretical plan, but at the moment it's just not manageable for players, even with 2 Bleed sources. 3% chance to proc Hemorrhaging, lasting for only 4 seconds and ticking every 2 seconds. The percentages are just too low.

Necrotech_Master

a lot of the difficulty with hemorrhaging stacks is that the base duration of the effect is only 4 sec, while applying a new stack refreshes the duration, thats still an absurdly short time span to get it to re-proc on a chance based application

now, i could see a warden bleed build running that one set that does +bleed dmg and maybe unleashed terror (bleed dot + hemorrhaging on every tick)

the only other way to consistent get 3 stacks of hemorrhaging would be to use serpents disdain to increase the duration of all status effects by +16 seconds (essentially making them 20 sec sticky dots, but more powerful as status effects tick every second) which gives a lot more leeway to re-proc hemorrhaging before it expires

Billium813

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a lot of the difficulty with hemorrhaging stacks is that the base duration of the effect is only 4 sec, while applying a new stack refreshes the duration, thats still an absurdly short time span to get it to re-proc on a chance based application

now, i could see a warden bleed build running that one set that does +bleed dmg and maybe unleashed terror (bleed dot + hemorrhaging on every tick)

the only other way to consistent get 3 stacks of hemorrhaging would be to use serpents disdain to increase the duration of all status effects by +16 seconds (essentially making them 20 sec sticky dots, but more powerful as status effects tick every second) which gives a lot more leeway to re-proc hemorrhaging before it expires

At what point in your consideration of burning a 5 piece set slot, do you realize that it's not worth it for the +25% Hemorrhaging damage we now have at full stacks?

Necrotech_Master

Billium813 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a lot of the difficulty with hemorrhaging stacks is that the base duration of the effect is only 4 sec, while applying a new stack refreshes the duration, thats still an absurdly short time span to get it to re-proc on a chance based application

now, i could see a warden bleed build running that one set that does +bleed dmg and maybe unleashed terror (bleed dot + hemorrhaging on every tick)

the only other way to consistent get 3 stacks of hemorrhaging would be to use serpents disdain to increase the duration of all status effects by +16 seconds (essentially making them 20 sec sticky dots, but more powerful as status effects tick every second) which gives a lot more leeway to re-proc hemorrhaging before it expires

At what point in your consideration of burning a 5 piece set slot, do you realize that it's not worth it for the +25% Hemorrhaging damage we now have at full stacks?

was only mentioning ways to make it feasible to continuously keep hemorrhaging at 3 stacks with the 4 sec duration

hemorrhaging would likely need to be changed to 6 sec to be able to more easily maintain 3 stacks without needing to straight up spam abilities that guarantee hemorrhaging

bar_boss_A

perfect uptimes of status effects can only be achieved by running a spammable of that damage type and charged traits. Glyphs at most get an ~90% uptime except a backbar infused glyph which is reserved for the berserker enchantment. Any kind of DoT does nearly not at all contribute to status effect uptimes. That's why I agree with your statement about bleed bear being too strong and why I disagree that hemorrhage should be added to the warden tooltips. If you want to build for bleed you have to either use bloodthirst, twin slashes (with master dual wield) or cutting dive as primary spammable.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

perfect uptimes of status effects can only be achieved by running a spammable of that damage type and charged traits. Glyphs at most get an ~90% uptime except a backbar infused glyph which is reserved for the berserker enchantment. Any kind of DoT does nearly not at all contribute to status effect uptimes. That's why I agree with your statement about bleed bear being too strong and why I disagree that hemorrhage should be added to the warden tooltips. If you want to build for bleed you have to either use bloodthirst, twin slashes (with master dual wield) or cutting dive as primary spammable.

power from the ultimate needs to be redistributed back into the kit. swapping hemo proc back to skills was the most simple thing i can think of. but a reworked health absorb glyph would help significantly.

bar_boss_A

as the current hemo + trap change is an anti damage creep change (it nerves high level DpS through the board), I don't see why warden should be the only one with easy access to hemo. Thus bear elemental chance could be reduced (as it is currently buffed) without redistributing the lost damage. Warden will still have the easiest time having a good uptime but there will still be the possibility to specifically build into bleed.

PS: I main a magden DD

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

as the current hemo + trap change is an anti damage creep change (it nerves high level DpS through the board), I don't see why warden should be the only one with easy access to hemo. Thus bear elemental chance could be reduced (as it is currently buffed) without redistributing the lost damage. Warden will still have the easiest time having a good uptime but there will still be the possibility to specifically build into bleed.

PS: I main a magden DD

then you must know our damage compared to other classes is not up to par, especially not on stamina wardens. it needs to be compensated elsewhere in the kit.

bar_boss_A

I know that every class on every aspect (mag/stam) is able to parse for the utmost (130k DpS+). With some outliers being necros and NBs which have it harder to even break the 125k.

I also know that parsing alone isn't decisive as you need cleave/Burst/Execute depending on the content you run. In real game experience any class is currently not to par with arcanist.

Warden is unwanted because arcanist deals more damage overall (not single target) and because it gives no group buff when run as a DD.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

I know that every class on every aspect (mag/stam) is able to parse for the utmost (130k DpS+). With some outliers being necros and NBs which have it harder to even break the 125k.

I also know that parsing alone isn't decisive as you need cleave/Burst/Execute depending on the content you run. In real game experience any class is currently not to par with arcanist.

Warden is unwanted because arcanist deals more damage overall (not single target) and because it gives no group buff when run as a DD.

having a group buff would certainly give us a spot, but even then our damage is pretty shotty, i don't believe i've seen a single magden parse above 125k lately. would you care to link one?

bar_boss_A

wasn't this thread about stamden and bleed? Here have a somewhat recent DPS video 5s of youtube search revealed: https://youtube.com/watch?v=apJI6QGSHo4

MagDen parses are currently mostly done with Froststaff frontbar which is a ranged weapon and as all ranged weapons are subplar wields 10% less damage as melee. Which I think is a design choice. Latest magden video of the same guy is: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pKFFHpBo9uA. Keep in mind that magden will gain the most of the status effect rework as it always runs charged and destro staff frontbar.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

wasn't this thread about stamden and bleed? Here have a somewhat recent DPS video 5s of youtube search revealed: https://youtube.com/watch?v=apJI6QGSHo4

MagDen parses are currently mostly done with Froststaff frontbar which is a ranged weapon and as all ranged weapons are subplar wields 10% less damage as melee. Which I think is a design choice. Latest magden video of the same guy is: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pKFFHpBo9uA. Keep in mind that magden will gain the most of the status effect rework as it always runs charged and destro staff frontbar.

This was a pts video that included a change that was partially reverted because it was too strong. I even commented on this video at the time.

bar_boss_A

My bad

Entaro

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn





I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well (Pillar + Aegis) + (+ Brutal Pounce, Brutal Carnage & Light Attacks causing bleed), and despite 37.4% of the damage on this parse being bleed damage (more than your warden), Hemorrhaging is the weakest status effect on this CMX.

As you say, the fact that Wild Guardian inherits a bonus hemorrhaging chance is the real reason it gets carried, the same way barbed trap gets carried on live server.

Hopefully they address the way it builds because it's nonsensical.

MashmalloMan

As someone already said, you basically need a Bleed spammable to hit 3x stacks and stamden has that as well as bear and a dot in class. I think that's perfectly acceptable for stamden to "carve" (pun intended) out their own identity by being one of the best classes to utilize Hemorrhaging to its full effect. I'm not sure why so many people are trying to change Hemo already just because they can't utilize it to it's full capacity.

At 3 stacks, Hemo does 32% more dps than Burning, it has a risk/reward structure built in. At 2 stacks, it's only 12% weaker than burning and still stronger than Poisoned at 100% health. In order for Poisoned to pass 2 stacks of Hemo, the target needs to have less than 85% health. So all things considered, Hemo has a lot of possibilities to be stronger than its counterparts.

As a stam sorc with only Barbed Trap, I don't and shouldn't expect Hemo to deal a ton of damage. I also don't expect to deal nearly as close damage with chilled either. I feel like that's what makes the new status effects interesting. Sorc should be good with Concussed and Sundered seeing as most of their skills fall into those damage types.

1. We need a Bleed enchant.
2. Scribing will bring a lot more bleed skills to choose from, so getting stuck on the whole access part of this equation right now is a bit too early to tell. If any class can make a bleed spammable, than Hemo chance will go up for everyone.

In regards to stamden, I'd like to see 3 things to start:

1. Update the passive for 2% damage done without a Frost Staff to 5%. keep the total the same at 12% with a Frost staff. This would make the difference between them 7% instead of 10%. When you compare this to Fire Staves' 12% dot/status effect and Shock Staves' 12% direct/channeled, it starts to feel more balanced. The 7% is to everything, while the other 2 bonuses effect half of the "pie". You would expect 6% as half, but, those 2 staves give a small niche with channeled/statuses so an extra 1% is fair imo.
2. Introduce a new bonus to the Animal Companions line for something like +50% hemo proc chance or damage.
3. Of course, I'll continue to ask this forever.. update stam skills to Bleed, update mag skills to Frost.

Once that's done, we can start looking at why Warden's are behind DPS wise in the competitive pve scene which I think starts with the skills. Like bear carrying the class. Northern Storm being kinda meh. Both Flies morphs behaving weird. Stam Flies has terrible aoe damage scaling and mag flies has the weirdest mechanic in the game of having to cast it twice which has now been stretched out over 40 seconds due to dot duration changes. Regen being terrible with only a 12% bonus and a flat return you need to heal to get, so non existant.

Necrotech_Master

Entaro wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn


I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well (Pillar + Aegis) + (+ Brutal Pounce, Brutal Carnage & Light Attacks causing bleed), and despite 37.4% of the damage on this parse being bleed damage (more than your warden), Hemorrhaging is the weakest status effect on this CMX.

As you say, the fact that Wild Guardian inherits a bonus hemorrhaging chance is the real reason it gets carried, the same way barbed trap gets carried on live server.

Hopefully they address the way it builds because it's nonsensical.

it is kind of unusual there, that the dps registered so much lower

the avg and max dmg was about the same as other effects, and it had a higher amount of crits than the other status effects in the list

i also notice you only had max hemorrhaging stacks about 50% uptime, and it only really gets a dmg bonus at the 3rd stack

i think with the difficulty of trying to maintain high uptime on 3x stacks it probably should still have some minor debuff attached to it, though i think the mangle debuff was not the right one

in certain cases (vs bosses for example) mangle does nothing, in other cases (weaker enemies or pvp), it makes a significant difference

MashmalloMan

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Entaro wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn


I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well (Pillar + Aegis) + (+ Brutal Pounce, Brutal Carnage & Light Attacks causing bleed), and despite 37.4% of the damage on this parse being bleed damage (more than your warden), Hemorrhaging is the weakest status effect on this CMX.

As you say, the fact that Wild Guardian inherits a bonus hemorrhaging chance is the real reason it gets carried, the same way barbed trap gets carried on live server.

Hopefully they address the way it builds because it's nonsensical.

it is kind of unusual there, that the dps registered so much lower

the avg and max dmg was about the same as other effects, and it had a higher amount of crits than the other status effects in the list

i also notice you only had max hemorrhaging stacks about 50% uptime, and it only really gets a dmg bonus at the 3rd stack

i think with the difficulty of trying to maintain high uptime on 3x stacks it probably should still have some minor debuff attached to it, though i think the mangle debuff was not the right one

in certain cases (vs bosses for example) mangle does nothing, in other cases (weaker enemies or pvp), it makes a significant difference

The best source of a status effect would be an enchant at 20% base, increased to 80% with 2x charged and CP, thats why he had 98 burning ticks, 106 poisoned ticks, and still only 80 hemorrhaging ticks, despite having 2 sets and multiple bleed skills.

Second best solution is a single target spammable at 10% base chance, 40% with charged/CP. Of the 173 light attacks, 110 were Howl of Agony which deals physical damage. So 63% of his parse was dedicated to a spammable that doesn't contribute to Hemorrhaging at all. Cliff Racer, Twin Slashes, or Bloodthirst would make a much bigger difference here, but obviously a WW can't use those.

Next runner up is direct aoe damage at 5% base, 20% with charged/cp. This is when it starts to get pretty low, Brutal Pounce hit 23 times for 13% of his parse. I doubt it contributed very much, it could of been 2-3 times across that entire fight.

What about his 2 sets? Aegis Caller is an aoe dot, so each of its 11 ticks will have a 1% (4%) proc chance. This is practically nothing and would maybe contribute 5 procs over a 3 minute fight. Pillar of Nirn has a 5% (20%) chance from the aoe direct hit, then 5 ticks of a single target dot for 3% (12%), also pretty negligible seeing as it ticked only 93 times in 192 seconds.

The only decent contributing factors for Hemo on this parse were Werewolf Berserker Bleed with 176 ticks, practically once a second for a 12% chance and Brutal Carnage for 110 ticks for a 12% chance if it's also ST dot, which it should be because it's applied to the enemy, not left on the floor or the caster.

Basically, as a WW trying to stack Hemo you would need an enchant because they don't have a bleed spammable.. or a set that gives single target direct damage procs like Way of Fire (every 2s)... or a set that gives 100% uptime of a single target dot that ticks on 1s like Sheer Venom. Unfortunately, there just isn't options like that right now for Bleed damage. You can say "but 37% of my dps was bleed", but without that % being high proc chance sources of bleed damage, it won't proc Hemo as much as you think.

Necrotech_Master

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Entaro wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn


I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well (Pillar + Aegis) + (+ Brutal Pounce, Brutal Carnage & Light Attacks causing bleed), and despite 37.4% of the damage on this parse being bleed damage (more than your warden), Hemorrhaging is the weakest status effect on this CMX.

As you say, the fact that Wild Guardian inherits a bonus hemorrhaging chance is the real reason it gets carried, the same way barbed trap gets carried on live server.

Hopefully they address the way it builds because it's nonsensical.

it is kind of unusual there, that the dps registered so much lower

the avg and max dmg was about the same as other effects, and it had a higher amount of crits than the other status effects in the list

i also notice you only had max hemorrhaging stacks about 50% uptime, and it only really gets a dmg bonus at the 3rd stack

i think with the difficulty of trying to maintain high uptime on 3x stacks it probably should still have some minor debuff attached to it, though i think the mangle debuff was not the right one

in certain cases (vs bosses for example) mangle does nothing, in other cases (weaker enemies or pvp), it makes a significant difference

The best source of a status effect would be an enchant at 20% base, increased to 80% with 2x charged and CP, thats why he had 98 burning ticks, 106 poisoned ticks, and still only 80 hemorrhaging ticks, despite having 2 sets and multiple bleed skills.

Second best solution is a single target spammable at 10% base chance, 40% with charged/CP. Of the 173 light attacks, 110 were Howl of Agony which deals physical damage. So 63% of his parse was dedicated to a spammable that doesn't contribute to Hemorrhaging at all. Cliff Racer, Twin Slashes, or Bloodthirst would make a much bigger difference here, but obviously a WW can't use those.

Next runner up is direct aoe damage at 5% base, 20% with charged/cp. This is when it starts to get pretty low, Brutal Pounce hit 23 times for 13% of his parse. I doubt it contributed very much, it could of been 2-3 times across that entire fight.

What about his 2 sets? Aegis Caller is an aoe dot, so each of its 11 ticks will have a 1% (4%) proc chance. This is practically nothing and would maybe contribute 5 procs over a 3 minute fight. Pillar of Nirn has a 5% (20%) chance from the aoe direct hit, then 5 ticks of a single target dot for 3% (12%), also pretty negligible seeing as it ticked only 93 times in 192 seconds.

The only decent contributing factors for Hemo on this parse were Werewolf Berserker Bleed with 176 ticks, practically once a second for a 12% chance and Brutal Carnage for 110 ticks for a 12% chance if it's also ST dot, which it should be because it's applied to the enemy, not left on the floor or the caster.

Basically, as a WW trying to stack Hemo you would need an enchant because they don't have a bleed spammable.. or a set that gives single target direct damage procs like Way of Fire (every 2s)... or a set that gives 100% uptime of a single target dot that ticks on 1s like Sheer Venom. Unfortunately, there just isn't options like that right now for Bleed damage. You can say "but 37% of my dps was bleed", but without that % being high proc chance sources of bleed damage, it won't proc Hemo as much as you think.

yeah thats what i kind of figured

personally if it were a more active fight, i found aegis caller to not be great anyway because too easy to move out of the aoe

if i really wanted to proc bleed on ww i would probably use something like pillar + unleashed terror (as a ww you use a gap closer a lot which would consistently keep 3x hemo stacks on the target), or even blooddrinker + unleashed might be interesting to work with

would any of these choices be anywhere near meta? probably unlikely, but could still be fun lol

Billium813

What if Daggers & Swords LA dealt Bleed Damage (10% base chance for Hemorrhaging for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Hemorrhaging status effect?
What if Axes & Maces LA dealt Physical Damage (10% base chance for Sundered for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Sundered status effect?

Same for 2H Greatswords (Hemorrhaging), Battle Axes (Sundered), and Mauls (Sundered).

merpins

Billium813 wrote: »

What if Daggers & Swords LA dealt Bleed Damage (10% base chance for Hemorrhaging for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Hemorrhaging status effect?
What if Axes & Maces LA dealt Physical Damage (10% base chance for Sundered for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Sundered status effect?

Same for 2H Greatswords (Hemorrhaging), Battle Axes (Sundered), and Mauls (Sundered).

I like the idea a lot. Bows would probably be Bleed damage, as well.

kojou

My vote is that Subterranean Assault should be switched to Bleed Damage, and automatically apply a stack of Hemorrhaging on all targets hit.

I also think making one of the weapon Glyphs deal bleed damage is a great idea.

As for weapons, light attacks and heavy attacks procing a status effects maybe goes to far, but I would fully support the developers changing the damage type of the skills based on the weapon from physical to bleed (similar to how destruction staves change damage type based on staff).

ESO_Nightingale

kojou wrote: »

My vote is that Subterranean Assault should be switched to Bleed Damage, and automatically apply a stack of Hemorrhaging on all targets hit.

I also think making one of the weapon Glyphs deal bleed damage is a great idea.

As for weapons, light attacks and heavy attacks procing a status effects maybe goes to far, but I would fully support the developers changing the damage type of the skills based on the weapon from physical to bleed (similar to how destruction staves change damage type based on staff).

I like these ideas greatly

Skjaldbjorn

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Bird is a decent ability because cutting has a dot. That's it. Spammable? yeah pretty wildly mediocre. Agreed on this front. The ability is fundamentally bad through it's design. Honestly the whole thing being completely redesigned would be a blessing.

ESO_Nightingale

merpins wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

What if Daggers & Swords LA dealt Bleed Damage (10% base chance for Hemorrhaging for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Hemorrhaging status effect?
What if Axes & Maces LA dealt Physical Damage (10% base chance for Sundered for Single-target direct attack), with HAs always applying the Sundered status effect?

Same for 2H Greatswords (Hemorrhaging), Battle Axes (Sundered), and Mauls (Sundered).

I like the idea a lot. Bows would probably be Bleed damage, as well.

I think bows would make more sense as poison since they have poison damage morphs.

Skullstachio

bar_boss_A wrote: »

perfect uptimes of status effects can only be achieved by running a spammable of that damage type and charged traits. Glyphs at most get an ~90% uptime except a backbar infused glyph which is reserved for the berserker enchantment. Any kind of DoT does nearly not at all contribute to status effect uptimes. That's why I agree with your statement about bleed bear being too strong and why I disagree that hemorrhage should be added to the warden tooltips. If you want to build for bleed you have to either use bloodthirst, twin slashes (with master dual wield) or cutting dive as primary spammable.

Or in my experience, using multiple different bleed abilities on both bars (Carve on backbar as I use the maelstrom 2H for the increase in direct damage done after using Stampede while other DoTs are ticking, Growing swarm, Barbed trap which I know is undoubtedly going to go south when it hits live, Wild guardian for independant hemorrhaging status next to the ones that proc from the other bleed abilities, and yes, I do use cutting dive as a spammable, agree to disagree on it all you want, but I use it for the direct damage and the bleed is just an added bonus for the combination of blood drinker for 20% extra bleed damage & dro'zakars claws which grants weapon/spell damage for each bleed effect on that target.)

And when everyone sees how gold road is going to go down, I can only imagine how many custom made "bleed abilities" we will see which will feed into the power of dro'zakars claws in the long run regardless for all classes, but especially for the warden.

Mark my words, a gold painted kagouti offal pit is still a kagouti offal pit, and I reckon there may be a shuffling of proverbial ToT cards soon down the track.

SandandStars

Why so much Kagouti hate in the forums? My sister-in-law is a Kagouti and she’s a wonderful person.

bar_boss_A

Skullstachio wrote: »

..., and yes, I do use cutting dive as a spammable, agree to disagree on it all you want,...

sorry I forgot - yes cutting dive is also one of the few bleed damage spammables which should be utilized to make bleed builds viable. As you mentioned Dro Zakar: I was wondering, but too lazy to test, how it interacts whith the multiple stacks of hemorrhage. Do three stacks of hemorrhage count as three stacks of bleeds?

Cheers

J18696

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

..., and yes, I do use cutting dive as a spammable, agree to disagree on it all you want,...

sorry I forgot - yes cutting dive is also one of the few bleed damage spammables which should be utilized to make bleed builds viable. As you mentioned Dro Zakar: I was wondering, but too lazy to test, how it interacts whith the multiple stacks of hemorrhage. Do three stacks of hemorrhage count as three stacks of bleeds?

Cheers

From what I saw from cmx no it just buffs the current bleed status and refreshes it