U41 Stam Warden Discussion Thread

merpins · February 6

With the change to bleed, and the increased love and attention that's being directed towards mag warden, what about stam warden? I have a ton of opinions, and it's not looking good for this playstyle at the moment.

Stam Warden Pain Points:

1. Cliff racer is ok. It feels terrible to use, always has. both morphs suffer this. It could use a boost in damage, as right now it's really only good for a bleed dot, and not as a spammable skill. You CAN spam it, and it's fine. Not great, not bad, but fine. But almost every stam warden I've seen doesn't use it as a spammable, since the damage doesn't compare to other generic options (like Wrecking Blow). Stam Warden lacks a spammable skill that's worthwhile slotting as a spammable. If you want a bleed spammable, you're gonna have to use dual wield.
2. The morphs of Scorch. Not only does the stam version do poison damage and not bleed, but it's so much worse than the mag version that there's no reason to slot it. Does it do more damage? No, not really, it's pretty comparable. But it doesn't synergize with the rest of the skills, the other morph doesn't need to be recast as much, and it gives both major and minor breach. You'd be hard pressed to buff the stam morph enough to make it worthwhile over the mag morph.
3. Growing Swarm suffers the same problem as the stam Scorch morph. The Mag morph is so much better that there's not a lot of reason to use the stam morph. Next update, you might have to use it, though, just to keep stacks of Hemorrhaging up, and suffer damage losses because of it.
4. The bear is fine.

So... that's it. those are the stam warden skills. You also get a passive slottable skill, but that's not exclusive to stam. And then there's a bad sustain skill that just lowers your DPM if you slot it. Mag warden gets the entire frost line to themselves, as well as animal companions. Sure animal companions don't do cold, but at least they get double the skill selection. It's a lackluster kit that gives you one kinda ok bleed dot, and bleed ult that's pretty good, and a bunch of other skills whose mag morphs outweigh the options, and even if the other bleed skill was good (it isnt), that's still only three bleed skills. It's okay to an extent, with hybridization you can make up for this with some cold skills and even use the mag morphs that are better. But then, are you actually a stam warden? You'd be more of a mag warden that uses bleed at that point.

Stam warden needs to be looked at.

But I want to hear your thoughts.

Edit: One additional note. With the next major update and the Scribing system, there might be more options for bleed. this doesn't fix warden, but might help warden bleed builds work better. But we won't know until may at the earliest.

ESO_Nightingale · February 7

I was gonna do a post about my thoughts on the state of bleeden, i have a good amount to say now that hemo has fundamentally changed. I think there's a lot that should change. Including frostdens easy acess to hemo.

merpins · February 7

.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I was gonna do a post about my thoughts on the state of bleeden, i have a good amount to say now that hemo has fundamentally changed. I think there's a lot that should change. Including frostdens easy acess to hemo.

Agreed

Skullstachio · February 20

I agree with the 1st point, from my POV, I mostly use Cutting Dive as a direct damage spammable (with the 10 second bleed being an added bonus feeding into the dro'zakars claws set.) on the frontbar with an ice staff (I use two-handed on the back.) but the travel time is just absolutely terrible, plus screaming cliff racer just kinda gets beaten out by its stamina counterpart in some ways more than one.

The 2nd point: One of many possible solutions I pointed out in Nightingales thread (about wardens and bleed for U41) for Subterranean assault that would be in the form of a potential rework:
Assassin Beetle Barrage
Mark the target enemy, after a 3 second delay, an assassin beetle surfaces to attack the target and enemies within 7 meters of the target, Dealing bleed damage. After the beetle complete the attack, 2 more assassin beetles follow up to attack the target, occurring every 2 seconds after the first attack for 4 seconds.

The first beetle applies guaranteed sundered status to the affected targets, the second beetle applies guaranteed haemorrhaging status and the third beetle deals 200% more damage to targets below <50% Health while also applying the effects of the first two assassin beetles.

Notes:

the assassin beetle barrage retains the full damage of its predecessor subterranean assault ability, but is instead divided by 3 (the damage is spread out by the number of assassin beetles.
The assassin beetle barrage ability requires a target to activate.

3rd point: similar to the 1st point, I use growing swarm primarily to feed into dro'zakars claws aside from the damage over time and the bonus area damage to nearby targets, I thought the fetcher infection morph was strong at one point, but felt like it wasn't as consistent, mainly from the perspective of having GS for selective bleeds, particularly against stronger targets where I know it can last its full duration on top of other skills, over having a morph that only has 60% extra damage every second cast which can be mildly painful when applying it to multiple targets, or in best case, applying the first cast to an add and applying the beefier second cast to the boss enemy a player may face whilst also being a bit costly in the wrong circumstances, especially moreso to an untrained warden.

Point 4: The bear is Near-Perfect. The only gripe I have is that it isn't a "while slotted on either bar" ultimate given it's lengthy cast time to resummon if clapped in a battle.

Overall: It ain't completely bad, except for falcons swiftness & morphs, feel like it could be turned into a damaging skill or even a pet summon while slotted on either bar on top of what it already does (maybe), Using bull netch is actually somewhat helpful when helping with the sustain of most stamina abilities, plus when I don't use it is detrimental as I run out of stamina which result in less DPM (I presume it means damage per minute.) but it is situational depending on the content done.
I would also like to point out if you might not know already, maybe you do, but the haemorrhaging proc from Wild guardian is independent of the warden which effectively allows for two seperate haemorrhaging status effects in solo content, I say this because as soon as I saw the very first batch of U41 notes, and when the devs said that the reworked bleed from haemorrhaging resulting in a 25% dps increase, I thought to myself "thats gonna be 50% when putting 2 + 2 together, you know, the haemorrhaging status from the wardens abilities (i.e. cutting dive, growing swarm, carve/twin slashes, etc.) and the Bears independent haemorrhaging status effect, both stacked at x3? Especially, If properly built with high status chance. (battle mastery CP, Charged Ice destro staff with the elemental force passive.) It is gonna be pretty Deadly and will undoubtedly make wardens all the more unique as a Frost/Bleed Focused Class regardless of which should be kept in the long run uniqueness wise.

To paint a somewhat bearable picture so as to help from a PvE standpoint: I have an Orc Warden with a Charged Blooddrinker Frost Staff on the front, with a two-handed maelstrom sword on the back for added direct damage when using stampede. Full set of blooddrinker (20% increased damage done with bleed damaging attacks)on the front bar with Dro'zakars claws (deal 103 extra weapon/spell damage to enemies for every bleed effect on them, It can be stacked up to 6 times when counting the aforementioned abilities and effects previously mentioned, more than 6 with a set that causes bleed like PoN but replacing Blooddrinker with it is a bad idea.) While also using 1 slimecraw and 1 fully powered mora's whispers shoulder for some serious critical chance.
in short: Stamina Hybrid.

I can only imagine what doors gold road might open for wardens but it is currently an unknown mixed bag at this point, a few doors with U41 may have also opened up when thinking upon the use of serpents disdain.

SandandStars · February 22

I dont think theyll make significant changes to warden

You better hope anyways

VixxVexx · February 22

Cliffracer is a terrible projectile skill, like Stone Fist, Flame Skull etc.

The fact that there are NPC wardens that have this blue claw-like ability with a good and functional animation similar to Burning Embers & Eviscerate, is intolerable. A blue claw ability, a melee frost ability that can easily have a bleed morph, a literal claw. Of course it fits too perfectly to actually be part of the class kit, no let's throw birds at people.

ItsNotLiving · February 22

VixxVexx wrote: »

Cliffracer is a terrible projectile skill, like Stone Fist, Flame Skull etc.

The fact that there are NPC wardens that have this blue claw-like ability with a good and functional animation similar to Burning Embers & Eviscerate, is intolerable. A blue claw ability, a melee frost ability that can easily have a bleed morph, a literal claw. Of course it fits too perfectly to actually be part of the class kit, no let's throw birds at people.

A melee frost claw would be so insane I’m in support

SandandStars · February 22

Lack of a class spammable that can be used in pvp has been my number one pain point with warden for a long time.

I would support the above suggestion 100%!

This would open up warden to more builds besides having to use frost reach or 2h/DW for a spammable.

merpins · February 22

SandandStars wrote: »

Lack of a class spammable that can be used in pvp has been my number one pain point with warden for a long time.

I would support the above suggestion 100%!

This would open up warden to more builds besides having to use frost reach or 2h/DW for a spammable.

Tiger Claw. Costs stamina. does x number of physical damage in one strike. Two morphs. One would transform the claw into a Bleed damage skill, which does two claw strikes (in an X shape) instead of one, and has +200% chance to inflict Hemorrhaging. One would transform the claw into a Frost skill that costs magicka. It deals 10% extra damage against creatures that are inflicted with Chilled, and 50% extra damage against creatures under 25% health. This would give frost a spammable, and stam a good spammable leaving cliffracer as a bleed dot instead of a kinda bad spam choice. Place this skill where Cliffracer is, and then combine cliffracer with Falcon's Swiftness, or even just remove cliffracer and turn it into a Scribing skill for this skill line, which would allow you to make it Frost damage.

ItsNotLiving · February 22

merpins wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Lack of a class spammable that can be used in pvp has been my number one pain point with warden for a long time.

I would support the above suggestion 100%!

This would open up warden to more builds besides having to use frost reach or 2h/DW for a spammable.

Tiger Claw. Costs stamina. does x number of physical damage in one strike. Two morphs. One would transform the claw into a Bleed damage skill, which does two claw strikes (in an X shape) instead of one, and has +200% chance to inflict Hemorrhaging. One would transform the claw into a Frost skill that costs magicka. It deals 10% extra damage against creatures that are inflicted with Chilled, and 50% extra damage against creatures under 25% health. This would give frost a spammable, and stam a good spammable leaving cliffracer as a bleed dot instead of a kinda bad spam choice. Place this skill where Cliffracer is, and then combine cliffracer with Falcon's Swiftness, or even just remove cliffracer and turn it into a Scribing skill for this skill line, which would allow you to make it Frost damage.

A good change that would fix a bad skill yeah ZoS would never.

ESO_Nightingale · February 22

Am in huge support of a melee frost claw spammable with chilled and execute scaling haha

yadibroz · February 23

merpins wrote: »

With the change to bleed, and the increased love and attention that's being directed towards mag warden, what about stam warden? I have a ton of opinions, and it's not looking good for this playstyle at the moment.

Stam Warden Pain Points:

1. Cliff racer is ok. It feels terrible to use, always has. both morphs suffer this. It could use a boost in damage, as right now it's really only good for a bleed dot, and not as a spammable skill. You CAN spam it, and it's fine. Not great, not bad, but fine. But almost every stam warden I've seen doesn't use it as a spammable, since the damage doesn't compare to other generic options (like Wrecking Blow). Stam Warden lacks a spammable skill that's worthwhile slotting as a spammable. If you want a bleed spammable, you're gonna have to use dual wield.
2. The morphs of Scorch. Not only does the stam version do poison damage and not bleed, but it's so much worse than the mag version that there's no reason to slot it. Does it do more damage? No, not really, it's pretty comparable. But it doesn't synergize with the rest of the skills, the other morph doesn't need to be recast as much, and it gives both major and minor breach. You'd be hard pressed to buff the stam morph enough to make it worthwhile over the mag morph.
3. Growing Swarm suffers the same problem as the stam Scorch morph. The Mag morph is so much better that there's not a lot of reason to use the stam morph. Next update, you might have to use it, though, just to keep stacks of Hemorrhaging up, and suffer damage losses because of it.
4. The bear is fine.

So... that's it. those are the stam warden skills. You also get a passive slottable skill, but that's not exclusive to stam. And then there's a bad sustain skill that just lowers your DPM if you slot it. Mag warden gets the entire frost line to themselves, as well as animal companions. Sure animal companions don't do cold, but at least they get double the skill selection. It's a lackluster kit that gives you one kinda ok bleed dot, and bleed ult that's pretty good, and a bunch of other skills whose mag morphs outweigh the options, and even if the other bleed skill was good (it isnt), that's still only three bleed skills. It's okay to an extent, with hybridization you can make up for this with some cold skills and even use the mag morphs that are better. But then, are you actually a stam warden? You'd be more of a mag warden that uses bleed at that point.

Stam warden needs to be looked at.

But I want to hear your thoughts.

Edit: One additional note. With the next major update and the Scribing system, there might be more options for bleed. this doesn't fix warden, but might help warden bleed builds work better. But we won't know until may at the earliest.

Swarm stam is fine, but stam scorch yea, it need a rework.

yadibroz · February 23

VixxVexx wrote: »

Cliffracer is a terrible projectile skill, like Stone Fist, Flame Skull etc.

The fact that there are NPC wardens that have this blue claw-like ability with a good and functional animation similar to Burning Embers & Eviscerate, is intolerable. A blue claw ability, a melee frost ability that can easily have a bleed morph, a literal claw. Of course it fits too perfectly to actually be part of the class kit, no let's throw birds at people.

Wish necromancer have that white ghost enemy as ability and you got a point, warden should have a claw or creature frost ability.

moderatelyfatman · February 24

The class needs a full rework. I understand that the devs buffed the ice staff because Magdens had been sub par as dps since the Morrowind expansion shipped. The needed to also add a strong mag spammable as the Magden is still mediocre and the niche role as a Brittleden is now obsolete thanks to the Arcanist class.

However, I don't understand why they tore the guts out of the stamden as a dps. The latter was one of the most fun playstyles (I love the ranger) and extremely versatile (bowden had almost as much dps as melee) but has disappeared out of endgame altogether.

ESO_Nightingale · February 24

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The class needs a full rework. I understand that the devs buffed the ice staff because Magdens had been sub par as dps since the Morrowind expansion shipped. The needed to also add a strong mag spammable as the Magden is still mediocre and the niche role as a Brittleden is now obsolete thanks to the Arcanist class.

However, I don't understand why they tore the guts out of the stamden as a dps. The latter was one of the most fun playstyles (I love the ranger) and extremely versatile (bowden had almost as much dps as melee) but has disappeared out of endgame altogether.

we definitely need a rework to some abilities. some of the best candidates would be Frozen Retreat, Lotus Flower(and morphs), Dive(and morphs) and possibly both morphs of scorch, deep fissure could be similar to what sub assault is now with a 6 second duration, since 9 is insanely janky, and sub assault could be something entirely new. and give them scaling costs.

Shadowbinder7 · April 4

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The class needs a full rework. I understand that the devs buffed the ice staff because Magdens had been sub par as dps since the Morrowind expansion shipped. The needed to also add a strong mag spammable as the Magden is still mediocre and the niche role as a Brittleden is now obsolete thanks to the Arcanist class.

However, I don't understand why they tore the guts out of the stamden as a dps. The latter was one of the most fun playstyles (I love the ranger) and extremely versatile (bowden had almost as much dps as melee) but has disappeared out of endgame altogether.

I’d like to add to this linking to other thread about Magblade being gutted.

It’s the same story, ZOS devs you know what you are doing. You up some classes/play styles forcing them to be preferable for harder endgame content, while allowing others to fall behind significantly. That is not “balance” or play how you want.

Frankly all classes mag and stam versions (I mean real mag, with staves and magicka spammables, looking at you stamina arcanist, magicka dragonknight) should be performing almost equally in dps output in the same gear.

Thanks to your hybridisation and ignoring the clear different in magicka and stamina dependencies, you effectively pushed all endgame content to stamina and all solo/4 man consent to magicka. That’s not balance!

Prime example here. Stamina warden (stamina means weapons not staves) has ZERO benefit from the Winters embrace passive that buffed wardens 12% extra damage with an ice staff equipped. Why not say “or a bow”?! Why leave stamina warden in the dust in PVE content for 2 years.

Now magicka necromancer is also rock bottom with all the lack of attention to class specifics, ruining its gameplay efficacy.

Another rant in another thread. But if you can see these, ZOS developers, know that you are seriously driving away the longer term players from your game. If you truly want to preach balance and “play how you want”, start making it so that all classes, magicka and stamina, are viable balanced and have strengths of some form at least in pvp, and more importantly ALL desirable in endgame pve content, specifically those requiring coordinated groups.

Nobody thinks a group of 7 arcanists looks fun

Kartalin · April 4

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The class needs a full rework. I understand that the devs buffed the ice staff because Magdens had been sub par as dps since the Morrowind expansion shipped. The needed to also add a strong mag spammable as the Magden is still mediocre and the niche role as a Brittleden is now obsolete thanks to the Arcanist class.

In pvp, Frost Reach is the spammable (using a master ice destro).

ESO_Nightingale · April 5

Shadowbinder7 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The class needs a full rework. I understand that the devs buffed the ice staff because Magdens had been sub par as dps since the Morrowind expansion shipped. The needed to also add a strong mag spammable as the Magden is still mediocre and the niche role as a Brittleden is now obsolete thanks to the Arcanist class.

However, I don't understand why they tore the guts out of the stamden as a dps. The latter was one of the most fun playstyles (I love the ranger) and extremely versatile (bowden had almost as much dps as melee) but has disappeared out of endgame altogether.

I’d like to add to this linking to other thread about Magblade being gutted.

It’s the same story, ZOS devs you know what you are doing. You up some classes/play styles forcing them to be preferable for harder endgame content, while allowing others to fall behind significantly. That is not “balance” or play how you want.

Frankly all classes mag and stam versions (I mean real mag, with staves and magicka spammables, looking at you stamina arcanist, magicka dragonknight) should be performing almost equally in dps output in the same gear.

Thanks to your hybridisation and ignoring the clear different in magicka and stamina dependencies, you effectively pushed all endgame content to stamina and all solo/4 man consent to magicka. That’s not balance!

Prime example here. Stamina warden (stamina means weapons not staves) has ZERO benefit from the Winters embrace passive that buffed wardens 12% extra damage with an ice staff equipped. Why not say “or a bow”?! Why leave stamina warden in the dust in PVE content for 2 years.

Now magicka necromancer is also rock bottom with all the lack of attention to class specifics, ruining its gameplay efficacy.

Another rant in another thread. But if you can see these, ZOS developers, know that you are seriously driving away the longer term players from your game. If you truly want to preach balance and “play how you want”, start making it so that all classes, magicka and stamina, are viable balanced and have strengths of some form at least in pvp, and more importantly ALL desirable in endgame pve content, specifically those requiring coordinated groups.

Nobody thinks a group of 7 arcanists looks fun

The reason why other weapons are not included in piercing cold is because the ice staff does not inherently have a damage increasing component and the intention is to compensate for the lack of one. As we all know, the current implementation is far from ideal. The bonus for the ice staff is great for making the ice staff good as a damage weapon on warden, but its a bit too strong at pushing the use of an ice staff and the bonus for not using one is 2% which is pretty awful. Including the bow or any other dps weapon into this passive will instantly make that weapon best in slot over even the ice staff. We want to fix the dependance on one weapon, not shift the weapon that is best in slot to a much worse degree.

For this reason i think that piercing cold should increase bleed and frost damage, and only the frost damage component should increase significantly with the ice staff equipped, that way it makes frost damage builds want to use the ice staff, but, would be more balanced so that other options could be taken for stamina warden without feeling like you're losing a lot.

Shadowbinder7 · April 6

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The reason why other weapons are not included in piercing cold is because the ice staff does not inherently have a damage increasing component and the intention is to compensate for the lack of one. As we all know, the current implementation is far from ideal. The bonus for the ice staff is great for making the ice staff good as a damage weapon on warden, but its a bit too strong at pushing the use of an ice staff and the bonus for not using one is 2% which is pretty awful. Including the bow or any other dps weapon into this passive will instantly make that weapon best in slot over even the ice staff. We want to fix the dependance on one weapon, not shift the weapon that is best in slot to a much worse degree.

For this reason i think that piercing cold should increase bleed and frost damage, and only the frost damage component should increase significantly with the ice staff equipped, that way it makes frost damage builds want to use the ice staff, but, would be more balanced so that other options could be taken for stamina warden without feeling like you're losing a lot.

You’re right to be honest, it’s same with multiple classes they make new passives or change skills in a [snip] way that disregards the consequences to balancing for other aspects. The devs need to focus more on all possible impacts of each change they make for each class and their relations to weapon and other skill lines.

I mean in this piercing cold passive the easiest thing they could do for stamden is simply buff the non ice staff passive boost to 6% damage done not just 2%, though still not sure this would be enough for stamden.

Frankly the ability growing swarm which was gutted a while back, just like debilitate for nightblades was gutted now, need a buff. Both of these abilities are prime examples of many once good abilities that are ruined and then left to be forgotten, wounding class play styles.

These need to be addressed [snip]. Again yes I am speaking to you devs in charge of combat!

[edited for bashing]