Hemorrhaging and Warden DPS.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

..., and yes, I do use cutting dive as a spammable, agree to disagree on it all you want,...

sorry I forgot - yes cutting dive is also one of the few bleed damage spammables which should be utilized to make bleed builds viable. As you mentioned Dro Zakar: I was wondering, but too lazy to test, how it interacts whith the multiple stacks of hemorrhage. Do three stacks of hemorrhage count as three stacks of bleeds?

Cheers

Interestingly now we have arterial burst for magdps to apply hemo.

ESO_Nightingale

J18696 wrote: »

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

..., and yes, I do use cutting dive as a spammable, agree to disagree on it all you want,...

sorry I forgot - yes cutting dive is also one of the few bleed damage spammables which should be utilized to make bleed builds viable. As you mentioned Dro Zakar: I was wondering, but too lazy to test, how it interacts whith the multiple stacks of hemorrhage. Do three stacks of hemorrhage count as three stacks of bleeds?

Cheers

From what I saw from cmx no it just buffs the current bleed status and refreshes it

Yeah i believe that this is how it works

Entaro

Entaro wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn



I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well

wolf parse Hemo DPS went up around ~2k with the pounce and stack changes much more consistent.

ESO_Nightingale

Entaro wrote: »

Entaro wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/jJWoRXn



I tested Werewolf DPS with a bleed focus as well

wolf parse Hemo DPS went up around ~2k with the pounce and stack changes much more consistent.

Interesting to see. Still not particularly amazing though as far as ww dmg percentage goes.

Entaro

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Interesting to see. Still not particularly amazing though as far as ww dmg percentage goes.

Yeah, as the pounce is only every 5-6 seconds it's not consistent enough with all the other damage being DoT and having a super low status proc chance.

I don't have the CMX on me but I messed around with the DW Ultimate Rend a bit and it seemed quite decent now compared to shooting star. Kind of funny though, the other morph thrive in chaos is actually garbage now because so much of the DPS is loaded into the Hemorrhaging ticks and because Rend lasts twice as long, its... twice as good lol.

Twohothardware

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Yeah Dive needs overhauled just like Necro's Skulls does as well. They're horrible class spammables. They're clunky to weave and they have too long of travel time when cast which makes them one of the easiest skills to dodge in PvP and the damage is just not there either. Being ranged is not an excuse to make a Classes spammable severely weaker than others like DK's Molten Whip and Nightblades Concealed Weapon.

ESO_Nightingale

Entaro wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Interesting to see. Still not particularly amazing though as far as ww dmg percentage goes.

Yeah, as the pounce is only every 5-6 seconds it's not consistent enough with all the other damage being DoT and having a super low status proc chance.

I don't have the CMX on me but I messed around with the DW Ultimate Rend a bit and it seemed quite decent now compared to shooting star. Kind of funny though, the other morph thrive in chaos is actually garbage now because so much of the DPS is loaded into the Hemorrhaging ticks and because Rend lasts twice as long, its... twice as good lol.

I really wanted to have a look at rend, however there's legitimately no reason to run anything other than wild guardian on warden. It's incredibly restrictive.

Skullstachio

I have at least two ideas that come to mind.

First one: The wardens base feral guardian ability and its morphs: While this Ultimate Ability is slotted on either bar, The feral/eternal/wild guardian remains until unsummoned or killed.

This would allow it to be slotted only on either front or back bar (and given it's already lengthy cast time if having to recast it upon its defeat.) and allow for a different ultimate to be slotted on either bar, only caveat would be that the guardians wrath/savagery can only be activated on that slotted bar, and to curb its strength a little, maybe just slightly reduce its heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging with it.

Second one: Savage Beast Passive: Give it a touchup and make it so it passively increases your chance to apply status effects with animal companion abilities by 50/100%. Additionally, Applying Overcharged restores a small amount of your highest maximum resource and Applying Haemorrhaging Generates 1/2 ultimate. These effects can occur once every 4 seconds, individually of each other.

This here helps a bit with sustainability and ultimate generation while tapping into the overcharged/haemorrhaging status effects (seeing as winters embrace does a good enough job with enhancing the chilled toolkit.) while also making it easier to apply status effects with animal companion skills including the ultimate (hence calling for the reduction in the bears heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging before.)

ESO_Nightingale

Skullstachio wrote: »

I have at least two ideas that come to mind.

First one: The wardens base feral guardian ability and its morphs: While this Ultimate Ability is slotted on either bar, The feral/eternal/wild guardian remains until unsummoned or killed.

This would allow it to be slotted only on either front or back bar (and given it's already lengthy cast time if having to recast it upon its defeat.) and allow for a different ultimate to be slotted on either bar, only caveat would be that the guardians wrath/savagery can only be activated on that slotted bar, and to curb its strength a little, maybe just slightly reduce its heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging with it.

Second one: Savage Beast Passive: Give it a touchup and make it so it passively increases your chance to apply status effects with animal companion abilities by 50/100%. Additionally, Applying Overcharged restores a small amount of your highest maximum resource and Applying Haemorrhaging Generates 1/2 ultimate. These effects can occur once every 4 seconds, individually of each other.

This here helps a bit with sustainability and ultimate generation while tapping into the overcharged/haemorrhaging status effects (seeing as winters embrace does a good enough job with enhancing the chilled toolkit.) while also making it easier to apply status effects with animal companion skills including the ultimate (hence calling for the reduction in the bears heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging before.)

yeah honestly, i don't think it needs anything appart from the hemo bonuses. overcharged should be another classes' thing. we really should just have standardised damage types on classes. in our case, frost for magic and bleed for stam. our sustain passives are the issue with our sustain. we can't even get access to natures gift most of the time and flourish is a % based bonus instead of a flat value like most of them.

ESO_Nightingale

Twohothardware wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Yeah Dive needs overhauled just like Necro's Skulls does as well. They're horrible class spammables. They're clunky to weave and they have too long of travel time when cast which makes them one of the easiest skills to dodge in PvP and the damage is just not there either. Being ranged is not an excuse to make a Classes spammable severely weaker than others like DK's Molten Whip and Nightblades Concealed Weapon.

True. They are extremely clunky. Dive has the issue of always taking roughly the same amount of time to hit a target regardless of the amount of distance you are from that target. This is horrendous in melee range. In my opinion, i think dive should have 2 different forms based on your range from the target. I think it should be a melee spammable within 7 meters and deal slightly more damage and it should turn into current dive when you're further than 7 meters and give off balance.

bar_boss_A

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Interestingly now we have arterial burst for magdps to apply hemo.

Yeah I am quite eager to test this but I have a fundamental problem with it: as it is a guaranteed proc it does not support building into status effects. It is probably stronger on a nirn/precise setup...

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Interestingly now we have arterial burst for magdps to apply hemo.

Yeah I am quite eager to test this but I have a fundamental problem with it: as it is a guaranteed proc it does not support building into status effects. It is probably stronger on a nirn/precise setup...

that's actually not accurate. arterial burst does magic damage. it applies overcharged too at a lesser rate.

MashmalloMan

Skullstachio wrote: »

I have at least two ideas that come to mind.

First one: The wardens base feral guardian ability and its morphs: While this Ultimate Ability is slotted on either bar, The feral/eternal/wild guardian remains until unsummoned or killed.

This would allow it to be slotted only on either front or back bar (and given it's already lengthy cast time if having to recast it upon its defeat.) and allow for a different ultimate to be slotted on either bar, only caveat would be that the guardians wrath/savagery can only be activated on that slotted bar, and to curb its strength a little, maybe just slightly reduce its heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging with it.

I agree that 1 bar would fix a lot of the problems, but bear is still too strong with or without hemo procs. The opportunity/cost is just not there for what it would offer. Most players don't use their back bar ult for anything but passives, occasionally utility, or trash.

This is how I'd tweak it:

Feral Guardian

• Reduce passive damage by 50%.
• Change damage type from Magic to Frost.
• Only requires 1 slot instead of 2.
  • Wild Guardian
    • The bear now deals double the passive damage as Bleed and has quintuple the chance of applying the Hemorrhaging status effect, but requires 2 slots instead of 1.
  • Eternal Guardian
    • The grizzly instantly respawns when it dies.
    • Increases the amount of bonus damage dealt to low Health targets from 100% to 200% instead of 150%.

With these changes you introduce 2 playstyles instead of 1 that the current morph choice is lacking.

Wild Guardian remains as the powerhouse we know and love, but takes up 2 slots.

Eternal Guardian only requires 1 bar, but deals much less passive damage. To compensate the passive nerf, the execute scaling of the activation is improved, however users now have the freedom to cast other ultimate's before execute like Northern Storm.

Skullstachio wrote: »

Second one: Savage Beast Passive: Give it a touchup and make it so it passively increases your chance to apply status effects with animal companion abilities by 50/100%. Additionally, Applying Overcharged restores a small amount of your highest maximum resource and Applying Haemorrhaging Generates 1/2 ultimate. These effects can occur once every 4 seconds, individually of each other.

This here helps a bit with sustainability and ultimate generation while tapping into the overcharged/haemorrhaging status effects (seeing as winters embrace does a good enough job with enhancing the chilled toolkit.) while also making it easier to apply status effects with animal companion skills including the ultimate (hence calling for the reduction in the bears heightened chance to apply haemorrhaging before.)

I like where your head is at, but I'd much rather see classes like Warden and Sorc get the DK treatment and centralize their damage types instead of a mixed bag.

Also, each class basically gets 1 ult gen passive with the exception of NB's potion passive, but they have an identity for relying heavily on their low cost, high damage, high ult gen for effective burst. What they don't have is element identity like Warden does with Frost, and to a lesser extent, Bleed. I'd prefer if each class has their own respective strengths.

My take:

• Convert all stam Warden skills to Bleed damage. (Subterranean Assault)
• Convert all mag Warden skills to Frost damage. (Eternal Guardian, Screaming Cliff Racer, Deep Fissure, Fetcher Infection)
  • Bond With Nature
    • Change the flat 1260 heal into 5% of your HP, Sorc has this type of mechanic with Blood Magic.
    • Add +x% to apply Hemorrhaging from Bleed damage.
  • Flourish
    • Remove +12% mag/stam regen.
    • Add +160 mag/stam regen.
  • Nature's Gift
    • Remove healing an ally with a Green Balance ability to gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina, whichever resource pool is lower with a 1s cooldown.
    • Add applying a minor/major buff/debuff to an enemy, yourself, or an ally to gain 200 Magicka and Stamina. This effect has a 1s cooldown.

MashmalloMan

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Yeah Dive needs overhauled just like Necro's Skulls does as well. They're horrible class spammables. They're clunky to weave and they have too long of travel time when cast which makes them one of the easiest skills to dodge in PvP and the damage is just not there either. Being ranged is not an excuse to make a Classes spammable severely weaker than others like DK's Molten Whip and Nightblades Concealed Weapon.

True. They are extremely clunky. Dive has the issue of always taking roughly the same amount of time to hit a target regardless of the amount of distance you are from that target. This is horrendous in melee range. In my opinion, i think dive should have 2 different forms based on your range from the target. I think it should be a melee spammable within 7 meters and deal slightly more damage and it should turn into current dive when you're further than 7 meters and give off balance.

Thats how all class ranged spammables should behave.

The only melee spammable since launch added to the game has been from Vampire.

In general order we got Warden's Cliff Racer, Psijic Order's Ele Weapon, Necro's Skull, DK's Poop Fist, Sorc's Crystal Weapon, Fighter's Guild Silver Shards, and Arcanists' Runeblades/Tentacle.

The best class spammables in the game are all melee. Templar Jabs, DK's Whip, and NB's Surprise Attack. They're instant, powerful, bread and butter for these classes.

I guarantee you, the new spammables available from Scribing will be mostly, if not all ranged as well sadly. This isn't a coincidence. They began making them ranged after launch because it's less work and keeps the class inclusive of all playstyles, melee or ranged.

Ranged spammables (if not cast time) have 10% less damage and projectile travel time. In the case of Skulls and Cliff Racer, a ridiculously high amount making them unusable in pvp due to how players have a brain and dodging is extremely forgiving in this game.

The middle ground they tried was Ele Weapon and Crystal Weapon, but these are attached to your weaving making them punishing and delayed instead of instant. It's much harder to land a LA than it is an instant cast melee skill. Some players hate the feel of this.

Your idea would fix so much.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Yeah Dive needs overhauled just like Necro's Skulls does as well. They're horrible class spammables. They're clunky to weave and they have too long of travel time when cast which makes them one of the easiest skills to dodge in PvP and the damage is just not there either. Being ranged is not an excuse to make a Classes spammable severely weaker than others like DK's Molten Whip and Nightblades Concealed Weapon.

True. They are extremely clunky. Dive has the issue of always taking roughly the same amount of time to hit a target regardless of the amount of distance you are from that target. This is horrendous in melee range. In my opinion, i think dive should have 2 different forms based on your range from the target. I think it should be a melee spammable within 7 meters and deal slightly more damage and it should turn into current dive when you're further than 7 meters and give off balance.

Thats how all class ranged spammables should behave.

The only melee spammable since launch added to the game has been from Vampire.

In general order we got Warden's Cliff Racer, Psijic Order's Ele Weapon, Necro's Skull, DK's Poop Fist, Sorc's Crystal Weapon, Fighter's Guild Silver Shards, and Arcanists' Runeblades/Tentacle.

The best class spammables in the game are all melee. Templar Jabs, DK's Whip, and NB's Surprise Attack. They're instant, powerful, bread and butter for these classes.

I guarantee you, the new spammables available from Scribing will be mostly, if not all ranged as well sadly. This isn't a coincidence. They began making them ranged after launch because it's less work and keeps the class inclusive of all playstyles, melee or ranged.

Ranged spammables (if not cast time) have 10% less damage and projectile travel time. In the case of Skulls and Cliff Racer, a ridiculously high amount making them unusable in pvp due to how players have a brain and dodging is extremely forgiving in this game.

The middle ground they tried was Ele Weapon and Crystal Weapon, but these are attached to your weaving making them punishing and delayed instead of instant. It's much harder to land a LA than it is an instant cast melee skill. Some players hate the feel of this.

Your idea would fix so much.

would be nice to finally have a shock spammable for sorc though i can't see you poor people using it with your lack of bar spac- i mean pets.

Twohothardware

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I don't really believe Zos has any interest in further developing Warden, at least not seriously. I feel like the general idea is to relegate them to a PVP class that exclusively heals in PVE. When they do manage to give them something valuable (such as Minor Brittle) that kind of forces them into groups to some extent, they almost immediately add something to circumvent that and Warden goes back to being a heal-only meaningful PVE class. Sucks, but hey, we all get to spam hentai now, so whatever.

On a more serious note, bird is absolute dog. It's effectively a 10s dot. Anyone who thinks it's even a decent spammable is fooling themselves. Shalks feels so bad. Bugs is awful. Nothing in Warden's kit outside of the bear from a stam perspective makes any sense together or synergizes well. It's easily the most poorly designed, poorly maintained, poorly structured DPS class and Necro exists, so that's effing wild.

Yeah Dive needs overhauled just like Necro's Skulls does as well. They're horrible class spammables. They're clunky to weave and they have too long of travel time when cast which makes them one of the easiest skills to dodge in PvP and the damage is just not there either. Being ranged is not an excuse to make a Classes spammable severely weaker than others like DK's Molten Whip and Nightblades Concealed Weapon.

True. They are extremely clunky. Dive has the issue of always taking roughly the same amount of time to hit a target regardless of the amount of distance you are from that target. This is horrendous in melee range. In my opinion, i think dive should have 2 different forms based on your range from the target. I think it should be a melee spammable within 7 meters and deal slightly more damage and it should turn into current dive when you're further than 7 meters and give off balance.

Yeah having two animations of the skills based on whether you're within 7 meters of your target or not would be a good fix that would still allow ranged playstyle for those that want it while fixing the reason why noone runs Warden's Dive or Necro's Skulls as a spammable.

ramdrop

The main issues still haven't been addressed, those being a terrible sustain and the abomination to our damage via Shalks.

There have been very little in terms of changes to the Warden class since the Uninstall 35 patch and it doesn't seem that the work that people are doing is getting any recognition here.

bar_boss_A

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Yeah I am quite eager to test this but I have a fundamental problem with it: as it is a guaranteed proc it does not support building into status effects. It is probably stronger on a nirn/precise setup...

that's actually not accurate. arterial burst does magic damage. it applies overcharged too at a lesser rate.

Yeah overcharged the game changer - weakest status effect by margins

bar_boss_A

Why would anyone run melee skills if your ranged skills do the same damage in melee? You would then have to add ranged variants to the melee skills to keep it balanced...

Skullstachio

Heres a possible solution for Subterranean assault in the form of a potential rework:
Assassin Beetle Barrage
Mark the target enemy, after a 3 second delay, an assassin beetle surfaces to attack the target and enemies within 7 meters of the target, Dealing bleed damage. After the beetle complete the attack, 2 more assassin beetles follow up to attack the target, occurring every 2 seconds after the first attack for 4 seconds.

The first beetle applies guaranteed sundered status to the affected targets, the second beetle applies guaranteed haemorrhaging status and the third beetle deals 200% more damage to targets below <50% Health while also applying the effects of the first two assassin beetles.

Notes:

• the assassin beetle barrage retains the full damage of its predecessor subterranean assault ability, but is instead divided by 3 (the damage is spread out by the number of assassin beetles.)
• The assassin beetle barrage ability requires a target to activate.

MashmalloMan

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Why would anyone run melee skills if your ranged skills do the same damage in melee? You would then have to add ranged variants to the melee skills to keep it balanced...

Ranged skills already scale 10% weaker and/or cost 15% more at base.

Ranged cast time spammables can be interrupted. Melee cast time spammables can not.

In this theoretical universe where a melee version works when you're close, it just fixes the projectile travel time issue which makes most ranged spammables in PVP next to useless in melee range without giving the benefits of melee only spammables.

So no, melee skills wouldn't need ranged variants or they would need to be nerfed.

ESO_Nightingale

bar_boss_A wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Yeah I am quite eager to test this but I have a fundamental problem with it: as it is a guaranteed proc it does not support building into status effects. It is probably stronger on a nirn/precise setup...

that's actually not accurate. arterial burst does magic damage. it applies overcharged too at a lesser rate.

Yeah overcharged the game changer - weakest status effect by margins

I mean yeah, but it does benefit from charged even still

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Why would anyone run melee skills if your ranged skills do the same damage in melee? You would then have to add ranged variants to the melee skills to keep it balanced...

Ranged skills already scale 10% weaker and/or cost 15% more at base.

Ranged cast time spammables can be interrupted. Melee cast time spammables can not.

In this theoretical universe where a melee version works when you're close, it just fixes the projectile travel time issue which makes most ranged spammables in PVP next to useless in melee range without giving the benefits of melee only spammables.

So no, melee skills wouldn't need ranged variants or they would need to be nerfed.

The ranged ability cost increase and damage reduction feel quite rough. I wish they didn't always design a new class's spammable to be ranged, since it kinda pidgeonholes everyone into the same playstyle.