MashmalloMan wrote: »Duke_Falcon wrote: »
I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off. As a Sorcerer can we get this?
Same. With hybridization though, it's not that far off. Many of the Sorc skills when cast make you hold the 2H Sword in 1 hand. Looks pretty cool imo, but it's really just a style thing. it would be nice if they made the 30% stam regen based on highest max resource instead, but it's no big deal.
Beyond that, this doesn't really have anything specific to do with Sorc, it could be granted by just making a 1h + magic weapon skill line which would require 0 effort to replicate past motifs since you're just equipping a 1 hander + a new type of off hand item similar to shields. If it was magic like in the picture, it could simply be an item with no style, but something you pick from traits or a passive that decides the element.. or like Staves, make a few variations for different elements.
But hey, Spellcrafting is coming, many people said it could never be done, but it was an obviously high request from a majority of the community and it's finally here, 10 years later. I'd say 1H + Magic, Spears, and Unharmed are pretty high on that list as well. Maybe next year if they don't do a new class.
StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
StaticWave wrote: »
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
I just want to know what is going to happen to my oakensoul build. I don't have gear for anything else yet.
StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.
universal_wrath wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Duke_Falcon wrote: »
I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off. As a Sorcerer can we get this?
Same. With hybridization though, it's not that far off. Many of the Sorc skills when cast make you hold the 2H Sword in 1 hand. Looks pretty cool imo, but it's really just a style thing. it would be nice if they made the 30% stam regen based on highest max resource instead, but it's no big deal.
Beyond that, this doesn't really have anything specific to do with Sorc, it could be granted by just making a 1h + magic weapon skill line which would require 0 effort to replicate past motifs since you're just equipping a 1 hander + a new type of off hand item similar to shields. If it was magic like in the picture, it could simply be an item with no style, but something you pick from traits or a passive that decides the element.. or like Staves, make a few variations for different elements.
But hey, Spellcrafting is coming, many people said it could never be done, but it was an obviously high request from a majority of the community and it's finally here, 10 years later. I'd say 1H + Magic, Spears, and Unharmed are pretty high on that list as well. Maybe next year if they don't do a new class.
Let us not forget the atrocious crystal fragment animation were you have to put the weapon in the back of your charcter to channel and fire the skill. This animation should be changed.
If you are uptodate on crafting and motif styles, there are 4 elemental gauntlets that you can get. I say ZoS should just use these gauntlets as new skill line and have them active like powers of infinite stone.
StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.
That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
Most of the classes are already broken. A monster in a town of monster is just another monster.
More and more it's harder to even think about going towards balanced with the amount of changes that have been done to skew everything.
Arcanist, Warden, nb, dk, stamsorc, are all performing at imbalanced levels, templar too if you want to count range plar. So at some point it makes sense to consider that if there appears to be no path back that you might want to embrace the path forward, such that it is.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
Most of the classes are already broken. A monster in a town of monster is just another monster.
More and more it's harder to even think about going towards balanced with the amount of changes that have been done to skew everything.
Arcanist, Warden, nb, dk, stamsorc, are all performing at imbalanced levels, templar too if you want to count range plar. So at some point it makes sense to consider that if there appears to be no path back that you might want to embrace the path forward, such that it is.
If all of the classes are performing at "imbalanced levels" that is technically balance. But in my opinion, only DK comes close to NB. The others mostly depend on the same build. NB and DK are not dependent on running the same build that the others run.
Most templars I run into are trying to kill steal with beam, but ranged templar can be good. Not as good as ranged NB, and not over performing, but pretty good.
Arcanist is garbage. The only time I see arcanist on my death recaps is if I get run over by a ball group and they get a tick or two of damage in. I may run into Arcanists that I cannot kill, but they are not killing me either.
Necro of course being the odd man out.
Duke_Falcon wrote: »It would be nice to see Curse, and Mages Wrath skills increase their AoE damage by 2 meters and an AoE added to Crystal Frags.
StaticWave wrote: »
I was able to achieve 59k max mag on PTS in Chudan/Crafty/Rally. I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending. 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist, and 2.9k crit resist with 31k max HP still. Regen is very good, as always. With Bound Aegis giving 40% block mit I could also use resto staff for Major Mending and Resto Ult, making me a lot tankier too lol, not that it's needed though.
Magsorc looking nigh unkillable next patch, let's see how many Sorcs appear once it goes live.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
I was able to achieve 59k max mag on PTS in Chudan/Crafty/Rally. I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending. 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist, and 2.9k crit resist with 31k max HP still. Regen is very good, as always. With Bound Aegis giving 40% block mit I could also use resto staff for Major Mending and Resto Ult, making me a lot tankier too lol, not that it's needed though.
Magsorc looking nigh unkillable next patch, let's see how many Sorcs appear once it goes live.
I think we're of course going to get flavor of the month players or those that enjoy magsorc and want to see what this change is all about. But I don't think this will lead to any long term or even interesting sorc dominance.
It will be like when DK and Warden got various buffs. You'll see a lot of them and then one day you'll be back to asking why kill enemy players and kill nbs is basically the same thing.
I will be tracking a few sorc mains to see what builds they come up with and how this changes their 1vx though, that will be really interesting.
I'm curious to see if sorc becomes the new Arcanist where you see them and instantly wonder if it's even worth engaging due to tankiness but I don't see this changing much about group v group
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.
That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.
The problem with saying that is that rolling out proper balance changes isn't on the menu. So either way it's a screwed situation. Getting no buffs just keeps the game as broken as it is while being stale. Getting buffs to possibly broken status at least mixes it up and gives another class a chance to enjoy some power.
So no not really an excuse but just more so the reality of the situation.
StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.
This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:
4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.
Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.
And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:
34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.
No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.
Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.
IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)
- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)
- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)
- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)
- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)
- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).
Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.
As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.
Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.
@Turtle_Bot
The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0
NB is The Baseline.
The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.
So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.
Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.
A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.
ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.
That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.
The problem with saying that is that rolling out proper balance changes isn't on the menu. So either way it's a screwed situation. Getting no buffs just keeps the game as broken as it is while being stale. Getting buffs to possibly broken status at least mixes it up and gives another class a chance to enjoy some power.
So no not really an excuse but just more so the reality of the situation.
Then you’ll just get another broken class. Why even have feedback in the first place lol.
Sure let’s give sorc all the love NB got. I’m sure it’ll turn out great…
Grim_Overlord wrote: »Adding on to the discussion of Dark Deal and its morphs, the Minor Force on Dark Deal needs to be updated to 20s to be usable in PVE content over trap, as due to the Sorcerer's limited bar space such a skill would be very valuable if it granted the buff for a longer duration.
However, I want to emphasize how interesting the support skills introduced in the patch notes for Sorcerer are. Its great to see unused skills getting an overhaul to create a new niche for the class in a role it has historically been shunned from. Particularly the emphasis on shielding with the new Daedric Mines and the Entomb change is really impressive and has the possibility to create a somewhat unexplored niche of shield healer.
StaticWave wrote: »I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.
StaticWave wrote: »I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.
Are there any people who believe that this is not the first candidate for nerfhammer's visit ?
Duke_Falcon wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.
Are there any people who believe that this is not the first candidate for nerfhammer's visit ?
I personally think his mag recovery is low by 400 in that build. He disagrees with me which is fine. I can run the recovery he is running only if I'm in a group getting buffed or if I have time to let my recoveries tick. If I'm in constant battle with constant pressure on me eventually I'll run out of Mag, it may take a while because the mag pool is so high, but if he doesn't end those fights quickly he'll lose them because of sustain.
Between 1800-1900 is where I like my mag recovery to set before Continuous Attack or Major/Minor Intellect buffs. Sitting at 1800 after those buffs is just to low.
He'll disagree which is fine, but I disagree too, which is also fine. 8-)