Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

universal_wrath

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off. As a Sorcerer can we get this?

Same. With hybridization though, it's not that far off. Many of the Sorc skills when cast make you hold the 2H Sword in 1 hand. Looks pretty cool imo, but it's really just a style thing. it would be nice if they made the 30% stam regen based on highest max resource instead, but it's no big deal.

Beyond that, this doesn't really have anything specific to do with Sorc, it could be granted by just making a 1h + magic weapon skill line which would require 0 effort to replicate past motifs since you're just equipping a 1 hander + a new type of off hand item similar to shields. If it was magic like in the picture, it could simply be an item with no style, but something you pick from traits or a passive that decides the element.. or like Staves, make a few variations for different elements.

But hey, Spellcrafting is coming, many people said it could never be done, but it was an obviously high request from a majority of the community and it's finally here, 10 years later. I'd say 1H + Magic, Spears, and Unharmed are pretty high on that list as well. Maybe next year if they don't do a new class.

Let us not forget the atrocious crystal fragment animation were you have to put the weapon in the back of your charcter to channel and fire the skill. This animation should be changed.

If you are uptodate on crafting and motif styles, there are 4 elemental gauntlets that you can get. I say ZoS should just use these gauntlets as new skill line and have them active like powers of infinite stone.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

Most of the classes are already broken. A monster in a town of monster is just another monster.

More and more it's harder to even think about going towards balanced with the amount of changes that have been done to skew everything.

Arcanist, Warden, nb, dk, stamsorc, are all performing at imbalanced levels, templar too if you want to count range plar. So at some point it makes sense to consider that if there appears to be no path back that you might want to embrace the path forward, such that it is.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.

Sakiri

I just want to know what is going to happen to my oakensoul build. I don't have gear for anything else yet.

Zabagad

Sakiri wrote: »

I just want to know what is going to happen to my oakensoul build. I don't have gear for anything else yet.

I don't know your build, but I guess you will have 2% more health next patch and that's it.

Pelanora

If they reduced the length of all the animations, would we need to cancel them anymore.

Sakiri

Zabagad wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

I just want to know what is going to happen to my oakensoul build. I don't have gear for anything else yet.

I don't know your build, but I guess you will have 2% more health next patch and that's it.

Ick. I'm running both pets, prey, trap, wall, stormy.

SM and deadly strike gear.

Not that it'll matter too long, I'm building a rele/nirn set so I can go farm out others and run stamsorc.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.

That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.

MashmalloMan

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off. As a Sorcerer can we get this?

Same. With hybridization though, it's not that far off. Many of the Sorc skills when cast make you hold the 2H Sword in 1 hand. Looks pretty cool imo, but it's really just a style thing. it would be nice if they made the 30% stam regen based on highest max resource instead, but it's no big deal.

Beyond that, this doesn't really have anything specific to do with Sorc, it could be granted by just making a 1h + magic weapon skill line which would require 0 effort to replicate past motifs since you're just equipping a 1 hander + a new type of off hand item similar to shields. If it was magic like in the picture, it could simply be an item with no style, but something you pick from traits or a passive that decides the element.. or like Staves, make a few variations for different elements.

But hey, Spellcrafting is coming, many people said it could never be done, but it was an obviously high request from a majority of the community and it's finally here, 10 years later. I'd say 1H + Magic, Spears, and Unharmed are pretty high on that list as well. Maybe next year if they don't do a new class.

Let us not forget the atrocious crystal fragment animation were you have to put the weapon in the back of your charcter to channel and fire the skill. This animation should be changed.

If you are uptodate on crafting and motif styles, there are 4 elemental gauntlets that you can get. I say ZoS should just use these gauntlets as new skill line and have them active like powers of infinite stone.

Lol I love those, I have 3/4 of them. The 2 aqua 1s were too similar so I didn't bother, but yeah that would be cool.

I think I'd still prefer a vfx little flame thing in the palm of the hand because then it doesn't replace gloves and it's easier to spot the type of weapon the user is holding. 2 gloves and a sword would just look like a 1h + shield without the shield.

Maybe a 2nd weapon of just double gauntlets like in Skyrim when you use 2 handed magic. That would be cool.

Yeah I've grown to love Crystal Weapon over the years.. it took a long time to get used to, but that animation is pretty terrible and feels awkward as hell because it's a "buff" instead of an attack. Light attack weaving properly means you never see your actual swing making it look like you're sucking the life force out of your target. Especially with 2Hs pose.

Pelanora

So why ARE there so few magic direct attack skills- even if they may have a wider effect as well, like a blast radius, and not only aoe/dot, where you cast and hope...Sorc has so few. Is that a lore thing.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.

That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.

The problem with saying that is that rolling out proper balance changes isn't on the menu. So either way it's a screwed situation. Getting no buffs just keeps the game as broken as it is while being stale. Getting buffs to possibly broken status at least mixes it up and gives another class a chance to enjoy some power.

So no not really an excuse but just more so the reality of the situation.

katorga

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

Most of the classes are already broken. A monster in a town of monster is just another monster.

More and more it's harder to even think about going towards balanced with the amount of changes that have been done to skew everything.

Arcanist, Warden, nb, dk, stamsorc, are all performing at imbalanced levels, templar too if you want to count range plar. So at some point it makes sense to consider that if there appears to be no path back that you might want to embrace the path forward, such that it is.

If all of the classes are performing at "imbalanced levels" that is technically balance. But in my opinion, only DK comes close to NB. The others mostly depend on the same build. NB and DK are not dependent on running the same build that the others run.

Most templars I run into are trying to kill steal with beam, but ranged templar can be good. Not as good as ranged NB, and not over performing, but pretty good.

Arcanist is garbage. The only time I see arcanist on my death recaps is if I get run over by a ball group and they get a tick or two of damage in. I may run into Arcanists that I cannot kill, but they are not killing me either.

Necro of course being the odd man out.

moderatelyfatman

Most of the comments are related to PvP and pretty much have covered everything, so I'll comment on what needs to be changed to fix the sorc in PvE.

The Petsorc Meta
Ever since patch 35, the damage from pets and the Storm Atro got nerfed into the ground. It's only with Daedric Curse with it's 40% pet damage boost that pets do serious damage.
This means that currently all sorcs dps build must commit 100% into pets. This is particularly odious for stamsorcs because you don't have enough magicka to resummon your pets if you die and are resurrected.
If they boosted all round pet damage by 40% and changed Daedric Curse to some other effect (e.g. a DoT and a debuff) then it would be viable to go to 1-pet sorc and ditch the Daedric Curse for more bar space.

ZoeliTintanie

I'm not really certain if any of this has been mentioned before. I haven't played for a few years (been playing various games, lotro, wow, ff14) and came back to ESO about a month ago.

I've had a templar to 50 and 332 Champion Points and only gotten as far as Cadwells Silver start. So i'm a noob.

There are a few things I noticed while playing a Sorcerer to 50 since i've been back and they are 100% only in reference to PVE. I think i've done maybe 4 random battlegrounds.


Lightning Storm : One of the morphs, would really benefit from an area heal over time effect.
Lightning Form : One/Both morphs having a dispel negative effect from self or a heal over time, would help the skills feel better.
Daedric Curse : instead of pet damage or faster cast, it would function the same (delay) but one would damage/aoe damage + add a resistance debuff to enemies, while the other morph heals, heals again and causes a damage reduction buff

Pets : having pets requires 4 slots (if we want them to stay while swapping bars), to make it worth it, increase their damage and add one more skill to each summon.
Imp : persistent aoe damage dot around it and causes a random debuff every x seconds
batlady : heal over time aura around it and removes a debuff every x seconds

Also : pet skins
Imp : lightning elemental for one of them/base option
batlady : Wind/Water type
I've seen non-combat pets that would be ideal for a sorc to utilize instead of imp/bat considering their identity seems to be similar to Furies in Shadowbane in a way.

Crystal Fragment : having played a templar first, it would be so nice to see Crystal Fragments deal aoe damage to justify its cast time.
The morph for turning it into a weapon proc buff could be turned into an added effect onto crystal fragments. Such as

Deal x damage to area + buff next 3 attacks with weapon
while the other morph has that "chance to proc"

or something like "deal x damage to target & area & heal for x amount of damage done" like puncturing strikes.

hope this is some stuff to consider

Bushido2513

katorga wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

Most of the classes are already broken. A monster in a town of monster is just another monster.

More and more it's harder to even think about going towards balanced with the amount of changes that have been done to skew everything.

Arcanist, Warden, nb, dk, stamsorc, are all performing at imbalanced levels, templar too if you want to count range plar. So at some point it makes sense to consider that if there appears to be no path back that you might want to embrace the path forward, such that it is.

If all of the classes are performing at "imbalanced levels" that is technically balance. But in my opinion, only DK comes close to NB. The others mostly depend on the same build. NB and DK are not dependent on running the same build that the others run.

Most templars I run into are trying to kill steal with beam, but ranged templar can be good. Not as good as ranged NB, and not over performing, but pretty good.

Arcanist is garbage. The only time I see arcanist on my death recaps is if I get run over by a ball group and they get a tick or two of damage in. I may run into Arcanists that I cannot kill, but they are not killing me either.

Necro of course being the odd man out.

Correct, they all have their things that could be re balanced and yeah not all of them are damage. Arcanist for example is definitely about the staying alive more than good damage but still it excels at doing that with shields in a way others can't so passively match.

NB is at the top due to having so much packed into each and almost every skill. But I give dk the nod for ease of use.

I will say though as someone that runs an off meta sorc build that I really enjoy that I think all classes have room to do other builds if they want to and just know how to play around certain gaps

Duke_Falcon

It would be nice to see Curse, and Mages Wrath skills increase their AoE damage by 2 meters and an AoE added to Crystal Frags.

ZoeliTintanie

Mages Wrath/Fury seems so underwhelming compared to Puncturing and even Cliff Diver.
So does Crystal Frags, that Wind Ward Sorcs get, the bound armor (i didn't know sorcs could summon weapons, I thought they were elemental mages like an angry mother nature)

When I first heard about the game a long time ago I thought Sorcs were going to be very heal/debuff/dot and lots of elemental aoes.
Ingame, there's like 1 aoe on sorc which I find strange. There's barely any dots and debuffs (destro staff has a debuff sorcs should have innately (the multi resist debuff)

For examples sake :

In Shadowbane, Furies (imo Furies and Sorcs are very close in Class theme)
They had _
Fury of Wind :L Single Target Debuff that lowered attack speed, movement speed and cast time.
Curse of Blindness : -50% Debuff to Hit Rate (aoe and single)
Call the Sky's Fury : Lightning attack with lightning debuff on it (Aoe and Single Target versions)
Call the Blizzards Fury : Ice attack with ice debuff on it. (Aoe Version and Single Target)
Runekeeper : Had rune combinations to help heal
Ingame Flight : Able to levitate and move.
Persistant Aoe: that were based on the Furys position and stopped when she moved (back then, now they'd be aoe auras like Hurricane) There was a lightning one and a blizzard
Inflict Poison : Poison DoT with Stamina Regen on it (In eso it could be used on Daedric Curse and have the morph restore stam/magicka/health while the other "Curse variant" does more Dots/Debuffs etc
They also taught the Huntresses(warriors of the tribe) how to use every weapon, so they werent just casters, they were battle mages, amazons, etc.

They were a great class.

I'm hoping in some way we can atleast get a heal over time and some more lightning-aesthetics on Sorcs, I really want to Main a sorc in ESO and relive my Fury from 20 years ago, but I can almost do it better with a Warden and a Destro Lightning Staff. But then, i'd have to deal with Bugs and a Pterodactyl (maybe scribing can give us a lightning variant to Cliff Diver and the Bug attack from Warden)

Sorry for the rambling, coffee + forums = wall of text

Aces-High-82

Ball lightning providing 4sec major expedition would be great.
Esp when comparing to Mist. I'd gladly would give up streak in that case.

Tannus15

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

It would be nice to see Curse, and Mages Wrath skills increase their AoE damage by 2 meters and an AoE added to Crystal Frags.

initially i thought adding aoe to frags would be crazy, but then i go looking at arcanist parses and apparently it's ok for any skill to be full damage and full cleave...

StaticWave

I was able to achieve 59k max mag on PTS in Chudan/Crafty/Rally. I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending. 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist, and 2.9k crit resist with 31k max HP still. Regen is very good, as always. With Bound Aegis giving 40% block mit I could also use resto staff for Major Mending and Resto Ult, making me a lot tankier too lol, not that it's needed though.

Magsorc looking nigh unkillable next patch, let's see how many Sorcs appear once it goes live.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

I was able to achieve 59k max mag on PTS in Chudan/Crafty/Rally. I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending. 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist, and 2.9k crit resist with 31k max HP still. Regen is very good, as always. With Bound Aegis giving 40% block mit I could also use resto staff for Major Mending and Resto Ult, making me a lot tankier too lol, not that it's needed though.

Magsorc looking nigh unkillable next patch, let's see how many Sorcs appear once it goes live.

I think we're of course going to get flavor of the month players or those that enjoy magsorc and want to see what this change is all about. But I don't think this will lead to any long term or even interesting sorc dominance.

It will be like when DK and Warden got various buffs. You'll see a lot of them and then one day you'll be back to asking why kill enemy players and kill nbs is basically the same thing.

I will be tracking a few sorc mains to see what builds they come up with and how this changes their 1vx though, that will be really interesting.

I'm curious to see if sorc becomes the new Arcanist where you see them and instantly wonder if it's even worth engaging due to tankiness but I don't see this changing much about group v group

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I was able to achieve 59k max mag on PTS in Chudan/Crafty/Rally. I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending. 27k spell resist, 24k phys resist, and 2.9k crit resist with 31k max HP still. Regen is very good, as always. With Bound Aegis giving 40% block mit I could also use resto staff for Major Mending and Resto Ult, making me a lot tankier too lol, not that it's needed though.

Magsorc looking nigh unkillable next patch, let's see how many Sorcs appear once it goes live.

I think we're of course going to get flavor of the month players or those that enjoy magsorc and want to see what this change is all about. But I don't think this will lead to any long term or even interesting sorc dominance.

It will be like when DK and Warden got various buffs. You'll see a lot of them and then one day you'll be back to asking why kill enemy players and kill nbs is basically the same thing.

I will be tracking a few sorc mains to see what builds they come up with and how this changes their 1vx though, that will be really interesting.

I'm curious to see if sorc becomes the new Arcanist where you see them and instantly wonder if it's even worth engaging due to tankiness but I don't see this changing much about group v group

Sorc will be as tanky as Arcanist and does more damage than that class, I’m 100% certain about it.

The mDW/Vate/Maarselok/Pale Order spec will continue to be strong despite losing 8% max HP and doing less dmg with mDW. They do gain 10% more max stam, meaning better overall damage. They also get a burst heal that applies Major Maim and Minor Vitality, meaning they can either drop Pale Order for DDF/Markyn/SSC for even more damage, or keep Pale Order for maximum survivability.

Rallying Cry/Essence Thief will continue to be meta for stamsorc stat builds. It's hard to replace 2 of the most stat dense sets in the game. Similarly, stat stamsorcs can also slot the new burst heal OR spec towards max magicka to utilize new Hardened Ward.

Regardless, you will see many, if not all sorcs stacking max mag. They might play around with a tank set, but it's not going to be necessary because like I demonstrated in the screenshot, you don't need 30k resistances when you can summon a 15.5k ward with a 9.9k heal tooltip anytime you like. Go full damage and you'll do fine.

StaticWave

Heck, you might even be able to stack enough max mag to get this tooltip:



That’s with 50k max mag, keep buff, and focused mending cp. Throw a 13.5k shield on top of that too for good measure 🤣 All possible because new Hardened Ward allows for dropping Vigor and the 10% max mag/stam allows for stacking this much resources.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.

That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.

The problem with saying that is that rolling out proper balance changes isn't on the menu. So either way it's a screwed situation. Getting no buffs just keeps the game as broken as it is while being stale. Getting buffs to possibly broken status at least mixes it up and gives another class a chance to enjoy some power.

So no not really an excuse but just more so the reality of the situation.

Then you’ll just get another broken class. Why even have feedback in the first place lol.

Sure let’s give sorc all the love NB got. I’m sure it’ll turn out great…

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:


4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:



34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.

Saying NB is the baseline is like saying I want every class to be broken.

A baseline class is supposed to have advantages/weaknesses and trade-offs between skills. That's not NB.

ZOS is not nerfing NB in any meaningful way, and if they try, it will take 5-10 PTS cycles to undo the imbalance. So logically "broken" is a fact of life. The delta between NB at the top and Necro at the bottom is gigantic.

That’s not an excuse to buff every class to broken status.

The problem with saying that is that rolling out proper balance changes isn't on the menu. So either way it's a screwed situation. Getting no buffs just keeps the game as broken as it is while being stale. Getting buffs to possibly broken status at least mixes it up and gives another class a chance to enjoy some power.

So no not really an excuse but just more so the reality of the situation.

Then you’ll just get another broken class. Why even have feedback in the first place lol.

Sure let’s give sorc all the love NB got. I’m sure it’ll turn out great…

It would be great depending on what content you play to be honest.

I'm perfectly ok with sorc being able to 1vx without having to do soooo much running. This change will not eliminate the need to run but just give more breathing space in those areas. Yes just like NB sorc now has even more of a chance to reset the fight and I'm ok with that.

I'm not too worried about the 1v1 because if you can't kill someone on either side you just need to be ok with moving on because that's the state of the game by choice of ZOS.

By three rest this will lead to players ganging up on sorc just like they do Arcanist and I'm ok with this because sorc will now have more tools against outnumbered.

In group v group you're already getting crazy heals and buffs so really who cares if you add another?


The only case for this being a bad direction is if you don't like the direction the entire game has already been going for some time. And this change isn't just for one of us, it's the change for the top tier sorc and the entry level sorc that needs it even more.


Trying to stop sorc from joining the party is just about holding on to the game as it was but at this point it's obviously the better play to get on the buff train which already has multiple passengers vs the pretty much necro train.



I really wish this game was several things it isn't but when the writing on the wall is written so clearly in big letters it might be time to embrace or move on

LittlePinkDot

Grim_Overlord wrote: »

Adding on to the discussion of Dark Deal and its morphs, the Minor Force on Dark Deal needs to be updated to 20s to be usable in PVE content over trap, as due to the Sorcerer's limited bar space such a skill would be very valuable if it granted the buff for a longer duration.

However, I want to emphasize how interesting the support skills introduced in the patch notes for Sorcerer are. Its great to see unused skills getting an overhaul to create a new niche for the class in a role it has historically been shunned from. Particularly the emphasis on shielding with the new Daedric Mines and the Entomb change is really impressive and has the possibility to create a somewhat unexplored niche of shield healer.

What I really wanted was major savagery added to dark deal or Crit surge.
I already get minor berserk from camo hunter which I need to use for major savagery....would be nice to be able to drop that for another sorc skill.

AndreNoir

StaticWave wrote: »

I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.

Are there any people who believe that this is not the first candidate for nerfhammer's visit ?

Duke_Falcon

AndreNoir wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.

Are there any people who believe that this is not the first candidate for nerfhammer's visit ?

I personally think his mag recovery is low by 400 in that build. He disagrees with me which is fine. I can run the recovery he is running only if I'm in a group getting buffed or if I have time to let my recoveries tick. If I'm in constant battle with constant pressure on me eventually I'll run out of Mag, it may take a while because the mag pool is so high, but if he doesn't end those fights quickly he'll lose them because of sustain.

Between 1800-1900 is where I like my mag recovery to set before Continuous Attack or Major/Minor Intellect buffs. Sitting at 1800 after those buffs is just to low.

He'll disagree which is fine, but I disagree too, which is also fine. 8-)

StaticWave

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I got a 15.5k shield in PvP and a 9.9k burst heal tooltip with only Focused Mending.

Are there any people who believe that this is not the first candidate for nerfhammer's visit ?

I personally think his mag recovery is low by 400 in that build. He disagrees with me which is fine. I can run the recovery he is running only if I'm in a group getting buffed or if I have time to let my recoveries tick. If I'm in constant battle with constant pressure on me eventually I'll run out of Mag, it may take a while because the mag pool is so high, but if he doesn't end those fights quickly he'll lose them because of sustain.

Between 1800-1900 is where I like my mag recovery to set before Continuous Attack or Major/Minor Intellect buffs. Sitting at 1800 after those buffs is just to low.

He'll disagree which is fine, but I disagree too, which is also fine. 8-)

1.8k mag recovery, 1k stam recovery is where I'm comfortable at. Some people go even lower. Doesn't change the fact shield is broken.