Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

acastanza_ESO · January 29

I have to say, the sorcerer changes are a small step in the right direction this patch.

Putting a small heal on the shield is a good step, but it needs to also have a HoT component while the shield persists like Tidal Chakram.

The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

Two things that weren't addressed but absolutely MUST be:

Remove the cast time from Dark Conversion/Dark Deal. Nightblade got its equivelent of these skills massively buffed. There is not any reason for keeping this a channel anymore. Nightblade's version is better and completely passive.

Move Minor Expedition to Lightning Form base skill and make it completely passive. Rework the morphs to increase damage (maybe with unnamed buffs like Nightblade gets), and give Major Expedition on activation. Nightblade was given completely passive access to Minor Expedition while Sorc's access is still neglected even though Sorc was supposed to be the fast class and nightblade the stealthy class. Nightblade is just as if not more maneuverable than sorc, while also doing massively more damage, and with better healing. Not an acceptable state of play.

katorga · January 29

Remove the cast time from Dark Conversion/Dark Deal. Nightblade got its equivelent of these skills massively buffed. There is not any reason for keeping this a channel anymore. Nightblade's version is better and completely passive.

Base skill should apply minor force/minor berserk while slotted either bar.

Grim_Overlord · January 29

Adding on to the discussion of Dark Deal and its morphs, the Minor Force on Dark Deal needs to be updated to 20s to be usable in PVE content over trap, as due to the Sorcerer's limited bar space such a skill would be very valuable if it granted the buff for a longer duration.

However, I want to emphasize how interesting the support skills introduced in the patch notes for Sorcerer are. Its great to see unused skills getting an overhaul to create a new niche for the class in a role it has historically been shunned from. Particularly the emphasis on shielding with the new Daedric Mines and the Entomb change is really impressive and has the possibility to create a somewhat unexplored niche of shield healer.

silentxthreat · January 29

sorc feedback "please help dark deal" devs we got you we will give dark deal to nb see you next year

MashmalloMan · January 29

I was so excited to see a call out for Sorc in the notes.. and to some degree, I was excited still reading through the changes because my God. I've been saying for what feels like 7 years that Encase, Mines, and Rune need updates as some of the worst skills in the game. Prime candidates for improving upon tank and healer roles for Sorc.

They finally did it, great!

On to no pet sorc, they took away the 8% HP and gave us 10% Stam/Mag. Okay decent. That's a start, but honestly, seeing as you don't build around your off resource it's better than it sounds. So it feels more like we're just making a trade from HP to resource and while it will help DPS in pve it's not going to do anything for PVP seeing as you want to stack much more health than you do resources (most of the time).

And that's basically it.. I mean what?

Why wouldn't you use this opportunity to make Bound Armaments hybridized (for mag sorcs) especially now that we get stam and mag as a passive already?! Eg. Bound Armaments gives Major Prophecy/Savagery for slotting, and 1.5% Crit per dagger. Remove the 8% stam.

Why wouldn't you use this opportunity to improve non pet sorc skills like Haunting Curse and Mages Fury? Eg. Haunting Curse applies major breach to cursed enemies. Any enemy hit by the explosion receives the debuff for 5s.

Why wouldn't you use this opportunity to streamline sorc's damage types into shock/physical, we don't need any form of magic damage now that Sundered and Concussed are actually decent status effects.

Don't get me wrong, shield changes are great, but just feels like this is a step 1 of 3 instead of what I was expecting. Feels very horizontal instead of vertical and didn't really tackle the pain points I see raised most of the time.

Then I read the NB changes lol.. they weren't even mentioned, yet got an instant cast Dark Deal/Crit Surge hybrid. 1800 health for doing ANY damage once a second is a crit surge you don't need to cast.. and 2k Stam/mag on instant cast for 4k health is Darl Deal without the interrupt. Take minor expedition and Soul Harvester passively on both bars for free while you're at it.

Tannus15 · January 29

as a PVE dps this is not it.

I'm actually imrpessed that they could read all the feedback we've given over literally YEARS and this is what they come up with.

2m radius increase on lightning splash means it will still do less damage than hurricane while costing more GCD and being a pain to actually use. increase the damage per tick. it's not rocket science.

Expert Summoner will do literally nothing to help. as if 10% resources will make up for the damage loss of just the twilight. it's not close.

the sorc class set remains completely useless in all styles of play.

mage's fury is still the weakest execute in the game, far below class or weapon skills.
mag sorc sustain is still awful
no pet dps is still terrible
we still have no access to major prophesy / savegery
our AOE is still terrible
crystal frags still has a cast time making it clunky to weave with the proc

for a moment i got excited when i read that there was a focus on sorc changes. silly me.

GusTheWizard · January 29

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

MashmalloMan · January 29

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

acastanza_ESO · January 29

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

Deep Fissure is 1000% better. The damage morph of encase is the closest skill sorcs have to being able to damage in an area like that. Unless they're going to massively buff the AoE of Curse and apply Breach in an area then Encase needs to be what is looked at.

MashmalloMan · January 29

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

Deep Fissure is 1000% better. The damage morph of encase is the closest skill sorcs have to being able to damage in an area like that. Unless they're going to massively buff the AoE of Curse and apply Breach in an area then Encase needs to be what is looked at.

Doesn't matter what you think about Deep Fissure vs Curse. You're barking up the wrong tree.

The core functionality of encase is a utility skill. If you want a better delayed burst skill, you need to suggest changes for Curse or Bound Armaments, our actual delayed burst skills. Encase is in the same category as Impaling Shards from Warden, not Scorch.

Tannus15 · January 29

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

storm atro doesn't grant max health anymore, only max resource. same for bound armaments / bound aegis.
that passive is now only affected by summoned pets.

MashmalloMan · January 29

Tannus15 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

storm atro doesn't grant max health anymore, only max resource. same for bound armaments / bound aegis.
that passive is now only affected by summoned pets.

I think you misread the patch notes.. I've already tested it in game. Passive reads:

"Increase your Max Health by 10% if you have a pet active.

Increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 10% if you have no pets active."

As soon as you summon any pet, you gain 10% health, but you don't lose 10% mag/stam. You only lose either effect after you bar swap. Atro counts as a pet, so you can summon it, get 10% hp and keep the 10% mag/stam as a no pet sorc, but as soon as you bar swap, you lose it and only 10% hp remains.

Guess where Atro normally falls on your bar? Back bar. So any time you summon it from back bar and instantly swap to front, you lose the resources so you can't really cheese it to get both unless you change your entire setup to work with it.

Tannus15 · January 29

@MashmalloMan yup, i didn't bar swap when i tested it. i thought for a moment they got something right, but nope, it's a bug.

MashmalloMan · January 29

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan yup, i didn't bar swap when i tested it. i thought for a moment they got something right, but nope, it's a bug.

Yep.. I can just imagine this hitting live and all the silly advice that comes with it.

"Ok so for your pve rotation, you're gonna wanna put Storm Atro on front bar. I know, you lose 1% weapon/spell damage from not slotting Dawnbreaker, but it's important for when you summon Atro. When you have enough ultimate, make sure you summon Atro at the start of of switching from your back bar and STAY on front bar for the 15s to KEEP your 10% stamina passive."

"Oh you want to use a 10s rotation based on Unstable Wall and Lightning Flood?.. too bad, don't."

Tannus15 · January 29

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan yup, i didn't bar swap when i tested it. i thought for a moment they got something right, but nope, it's a bug.

Yep.. I can just imagine this hitting live and all the silly advice that comes with it.

"Ok so for your pve rotation, you're gonna wanna put Storm Atro on front bar. I know, you lose 1% weapon/spell damage from not slotting Dawnbreaker, but it's important for when you summon Atro. When you have enough ultimate, make sure you summon Atro at the start of of switching from your back bar and STAY on front bar for the 15s to KEEP your 10% stamina passive."

"Oh you want to use a 10s rotation based on Unstable Wall and Lightning Flood?.. too bad, don't."

to be fair, if you want to use a rotation with lightning flood, too bad, don't is probably good advice. hurricane is more dps.

Galeriano · January 29

Adding yet another heal on shield ability is just a step in completly wrong direction.

acastanza_ESO · January 29

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I have to say,
The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses
.

Um no the point was to buff none pet sorcs in pve.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The changes to Encase are interesting, but the offensive morph needs to be brought up to a standard comparable with Deep Fissure. I can't really comment on the healing morph but generally looks useful.

I don’t think so you already have a delayed burst damage skill with Curse if anything this skill should be considered to be more like Burning Talons.

Gonna have to agree here, OP is off the mark on these 2 things.

Encase is fine, it's a utility skill, not a delayed burst skill.

While I'm unsatisfied with losing 8% hp for 10% stam/mag seeing as you can offset the stats and getting a bit off resource makes up for the less stats you gain because of stacking HP 30k+ while resources are generally 30k- ... It's a net 0 gain for pvp, but a +1 for pve... a very small +1.

The passive stats are honestly fine, the trade off is there, mag/stam is at least more flexible for pve/pvp environments while a pve player can't make any use of the hp.

The bigger point here is that they didn't actually fix no pet sorc with the changes because losing 2 pets + Daedric Prey for 10% of a small number is nothing. It will barely improve your dps enough to make up the difference.

... btw.. since Storm Atro is our best ultimate, guess who gets nerfed any time you summon it?! You guessed it, no pet SORC

Deep Fissure is 1000% better. The damage morph of encase is the closest skill sorcs have to being able to damage in an area like that. Unless they're going to massively buff the AoE of Curse and apply Breach in an area then Encase needs to be what is looked at.

Doesn't matter what you think about Deep Fissure vs Curse. You're barking up the wrong tree.

The core functionality of encase is a utility skill. If you want a better delayed burst skill, you need to suggest changes for Curse or Bound Armaments, our actual delayed burst skills. Encase is in the same category as Impaling Shards from Warden, not Scorch.

That's fine, I don't really care that much how it's done, it was just that they changed Shattering Prison to be delayed damage with a Major Debuff as well. But buffing Curse so it is at least adequate instead would be good as well.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan yup, i didn't bar swap when i tested it. i thought for a moment they got something right, but nope, it's a bug.

Yep.. I can just imagine this hitting live and all the silly advice that comes with it.

"Ok so for your pve rotation, you're gonna wanna put Storm Atro on front bar. I know, you lose 1% weapon/spell damage from not slotting Dawnbreaker, but it's important for when you summon Atro. When you have enough ultimate, make sure you summon Atro at the start of of switching from your back bar and STAY on front bar for the 15s to KEEP your 10% stamina passive."

"Oh you want to use a 10s rotation based on Unstable Wall and Lightning Flood?.. too bad, don't."

Yeah this is a major problem. They definitely need to at least swap how the passive is granting its bonuses. It simply doesn't work this way.

acastanza_ESO · January 29

Galeriano wrote: »

Adding yet another heal on shield ability is just a step in completly wrong direction.

Sorc needed a burst heal that wasn't tied to a pet or a channel, this accomplishes that, but the much better solution would have been to just remove the channel from Dark Deal/Conversion. There are already way better skills on other classes that do more without that limitation.

Udrath · January 29

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal. Conjured shield does not need a heal that powerful alongside the new daedric mines shield which is also too strong. This will not be healthy for pvp. Easily they will have 40k worth of shields solo with a max magicka builds and have no problem sustaining it… and the extra 10% magicka??? You can easily hit 60k magicka or more. What I don’t understand is sorcs are fine currently in live and needed only small quality of life changes, this is huge. Imagine a group of sorcs you can’t kill, you can’t catch, and will do very good damage. Test it and see for yourself.

GusTheWizard · January 29

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

Galeriano · January 29

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Adding yet another heal on shield ability is just a step in completly wrong direction.

Sorc needed a burst heal that wasn't tied to a pet or a channel, this accomplishes that, but the much better solution would have been to just remove the channel from Dark Deal/Conversion. There are already way better skills on other classes that do more without that limitation.

That doesn't justify in any shape or form adding a heal on a shield ability.

They could just turn one of the shield morphs into a regular burst heal. Arcanist already proved beyond any doubt how broken shield+heal is and sorc will prove it even more because arcanist was atleast limited by lack of mobility.

As for dark deal there really isn't anything better when it comes to sustain on other classes. Yes the cast time is annoying but without it restoring 3,6/4,5k of main resource every second would be just completly broken. There needs to be some drawback on it or restore values would have to be drastically cut down. At best they could just make heal value on dark deal to scale dynamically from stats to give users better healing when cast succedes.

xDeusEJRx · January 29

Zos devs be like: Hmm good ideas for Sorcerer, we will take this into consideration when buffing Nightblade

Galeriano · January 29

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

LukosCreyden · January 29

Ok, so, does anything here help make no-pet sorc worth playing? I wanna play no-pet.

Duke_Falcon · January 29

Well done ZoS, I like the changes. Thank you so much for throwing Lone Wolf PvP Mag Sorcs a bone.

I know these changes are tiny compared to the responses I've read in this thread, but even a little buff goes a long way.

Tannus15 · January 29

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Ok, so, does anything here help make no-pet sorc worth playing? I wanna play no-pet.

no, still far below pet builds

Udrath · January 29

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Way too strong, and even without the heal the daedric mine shield together with conjured ward is too much. You would be able to just parse on players while doing circles, since it gives a 10k+ shield with low cool-down.

MashmalloMan · January 29

Galeriano wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

With 60k magicka You will be getting around 16k shield and 10k heal tooltip in PvP even more near the keeps and resources. Even after halving that heal value it will be still strong because it's covered by a 16k shield. 5k heal covered by a 16k shield is worth more than 16k heal covered by nothing and keep in mind that heals with 16k tooltip are also halved in PvP.

Shields are halved too. That's a 8k shield, with a 4.5k heal after battlespirit. That 60k mag player also had to use underperforming sets like Crafty Alfiq to achieve it, so they have low sustain, low pen, low armor, low crit.. all of those are key to pvp right now.

Most burst heals from other classes scale much higher than a 9k tooltip and don't have to sacrifice all their set bonuses. Weapon/Spell damage is king right now, a mag stacking Sorc has very little of it. Most builds you watch now have 20-24k of their main resource because it doesn't scale well with proc sets or damage in general to begin with.

Idk, I have no leg in this race. I don't play mag Sorc for pvp, but are we all forgetting that CP use to give +20% mag/stam/hp only a few years ago? Let's be real. Max mag stacking Sorcs are very 2019.

Also. It's not like this was a free trade. No pets and no more HP passive. You're gonna have to make up that HP elsewhere. Shields are still capped by HP.

Duke_Falcon · January 29

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Ok, so, does anything here help make no-pet sorc worth playing? I wanna play no-pet.

Yes, most barely viable PvP No Pet Mag Sorcs on average get an approximate 40-46k Max Magic from all the builds I've tried running things like Destruction Mastery, Bright Throats Boasts, Draugrkin, High Isle, Marauder's Haste, Crafty, Wretched, AmberPlasm, Ancient Grace and Willpower.

The Hardened Ward Damage Shield based off these Max Mag builds from the sets mentioned and your Max HP is giving you a Damage Shield between 9-12k in Cyrodiil, which can get stripped off you in as little as 2 Night Blade Surprise Attacks. Its really hard to keep a damage shield up and top your HP to full.

The new Expert Summoner passive of 10% increased Max Mag while no pet is active will put those builds up to 44-50k Max Mag.

So the 15% heal based on your Max Mag which isn't much of a heal will help just the tiniest bit, but probably just enough. 15% of a 50k Max Mag build is a 7,500 heal, cut in half in Cyrodiil is 3,750 heal which is a tiny heal, but I will take it. Most pvp Non-Pet Mag Sorcs are running Hardened Ward on the front bar, so the tiny heal is probably just enough to get to get you to your back bar Vigor or Healing Ward to get your health back up or to reapply your buffs to keep you in the fight. If you don't actually need to go to your back bar for a bigger heal because you were just Ulti dumped on or because you need to reapply buffs. That 3,750 heal w/ good a good crit chance in your build so your Crit Suge heal is procing is probably just enough to keep you going. Maybe... I've yet to test it as I play on a PS5, but from my experience its a step in the right direction.

MashmalloMan · January 29

Galeriano wrote: »

As for dark deal there really isn't anything better when it comes to sustain on other classes. Yes the cast time is annoying but without it restoring 3,6/4,5k of main resource every second would be just completly broken. There needs to be some drawback on it or restore values would have to be drastically cut down. At best they could just make heal value on dark deal to scale dynamically from stats to give users better healing when cast succedes.

Totally agree here, the moment Dark Deal morphs become instant is the moment the value of it gets gutted like a fish. There is no way they would still let us have a skill that gives 3.6k - 4.5k upfront resources + 240 - 150 a second... + 8-10k heal + minor buffs. Any time people suggest removing the cast time, they fail to provide a reasonable argument or consideration as to how an instant version of this skill could look.

Take the new Siphoning NB morphs on PTS for example. Yeah, kinda sucks that 1 of the morphs is essentially Surge + Dark Deal as a passive on their bar, but it does everything to a lesser degree. NB can make it free, but it takes 10s of the passive healing to do so and even when they do it, it's only 2k stam/mag return, not 3.6k - 4.5k of your main resource and the over time aspect. A NB spamming it loses -4k hp while Sorc gains 8-10k hp... You could kiss the minor buffs goodbye too, it's not like anything else in our kit actually provides decent buffs lol.

Perfect example of be careful what you wish for.

That said, Siphoning new morphs are very cool. Kind of jelly because it's a 2 for 1 skill, but both Surge and Dark Deal are technically better at what they individually do.

Duke_Falcon · January 29

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

The new conjured shield is going be really overpowered. You won’t even need to slot a heal.

Highly doubt it, even with a 60k max magicka pool you’ll still only get a 9k heal which will be halved in pvp.

If you have 60k Max Mag your Crit Chance is going to be lacking so you won't be getting your Crit Surge heal reliably every second.

Also that heal will only be about 4.5k which is still tiny. I don't think there's any chance these changes will make Mag Sorc overpowered.