Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

RemoryAzure

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

The new Expert Summoner passive is interesting but it would be better swapped the other direction, this is mostly from a PVE perspective though where you're mostly using pet builds that benefit most from Max stats, and in PVP where you're making more use of things like Crystal Weapon to proc Blood Magic, and not running pets you want more Max Health. Swap these Bonuses

i do not agree.
in pvp, pet build is more likely a heal build, while non-pet build is a shield build. for a shield u wanna get the max mana so the passive fits ideally.
also, stam sorc is way better than mag one, which means, if u swap effects, stam sorc, who doesnt use pets, will get an additional hp, which will also increase his shield since it can scale off health. this is not necessary.
and sorc (atleast mag one) lacks damage more than anything else, imo, so that that max mana is a nice buff, like 5-7% or so, not the 30% like nb got but whatever.........

FoJul

Ezhh wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

All the outrage, I said am i tripping? Because everyone i knew was throwing together sorcs for PvE, Mainly because it was easy, and Unless you were wanting to do vCR, you can easily get into groups as oakensorc.

When I started PvE, Years back I have always been a PvE sorc, Even today i still play my sorc for PvE purposes. Sure a lot of classes are decent now. But Before high isle, and after High Isle, it seemed like sorc was the most popular still.

I remember on the solo content leaderboards, Sorcs were usually doing really well. In trials Sorcs were still doing very well. They may not be number 1 but they definitely aren't last.

And for a PvP picture, The recent buffs have made them strong, almost too strong. Even Sorc mains know that a sorc meta is coming. But, for PvE I guess it can join the boat with Nightblade (getting over buffed in PvP, for minor changes in PvE).

Edit: Sounds like with the change to how Tri-Focus works on lightning staff, that people need to drop the oakensorc and go back to old playstyle. Or find a new playstyle. Most classes are using Ele blockade/ Orb for cleave dots. Add that with Lightning flood or the other morph, and you have decent cleave.

Also, I think its wierd how Sorc Tanks are actually really viable. Everyone always ignores the fact that Sorc tank> Plar tank LOL.

Another Edit: Also the original comment about 2nd place is sorc was actually a Question too. I wasn't stating they were 2nd best I was asking, because i know how popular they were.

I think Turtle_Bot already cleared up a lot of the points really nicely (thank you Turtle_Bot - from a long time sorc main, it's very refreshing to read such well considered suggestions on how to fix the issues we have for PvE).

Sorc has always been popular, and has had a reputation for being easy to play, which likely contributes to this a lot, but it's just that it doesn't hold up against arc or even DK in actual end game content due to all the issues mentioned. It may well get used a lot in lower/mid level raiding groups because of Oakensoul/HA builds and so on, but as has been said, popularity is very different from it being in a good and balanced place compared to other classes, and sadly the PTS changes are not looking like they will fix the sorc PvE DD situation.

Arc is p2w class, I think we can all accept that, and DK is overtuned. I have been saying that forever. Join the club.

universal_wrath

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Ok, so, does anything here help make no-pet sorc worth playing? I wanna play no-pet.

If you are talking about DPS numbers, then no. If you are talking about enjoying the class, then yes.

universal_wrath

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

MashmalloMan

universal_wrath wrote: »

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

Surge definitely needs work, but your idea is sooooo overloaded lol. Keep in mind, Power Surge is intended for healers and it's the only class HoT we have. I quite like the idea of it, but it's functionally challenged.

Simple changes I've suggested:

1. Crit Surge - increase to 4k from 3.3k, increase duration from 33s to 60s.
- Easier to manage like Molten Armaments, Lotus Flower, or Channeled Acceleration. Keeps up with ESO's power creep.
2. Power Surge - reduce CD from 3s to 2s. Reduce heal from 2550 to 2k. Reduce duration from 33s to 30s.
- Proc lines up better with tick frequency of heals being 2/1s, nothing is 3s. Small bump to heal/s from potential 850/s to 1k/s.

This would make both morphs more intuitive. Crit Surge basically doubles the effects, but only for yourself. This morph choice is similar to how Lotus and Channeled Acceleration interact.

universal_wrath

MashmalloMan wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

Surge definitely needs work, but your idea is sooooo overloaded lol. Keep in mind, Power Surge is intended for healers and it's the only class HoT we have. I quite like the idea of it, but it's functionally challenged.

Simple changes I've suggested:

1. Crit Surge - increase to 4k from 3.3k, increase duration from 33s to 60s.
- Easier to manage like Molten Armaments, Lotus Flower, or Channeled Acceleration. Keeps up with ESO's power creep.
2. Power Surge - reduce CD from 3s to 2s. Reduce heal from 2550 to 2k. Reduce duration from 33s to 30s.
- Proc lines up better with tick frequency of heals being 2/1s, nothing is 3s. Small bump to heal/s from potential 850/s to 1k/s.

This would make both morphs more intuitive. Crit Surge basically doubles the effects, but only for yourself. This morph choice is similar to how Lotus and Channeled Acceleration interact.

Probalem with sorcer is lack of HoT skills and power surge is not really considered as such as you need a different healing skill to proc power surge otherwise it is useless, hence why I suggested to steer away from the proc part and just make the skill a true HoT. This change will probably reverse the change to wards heal which is where the contravesy is. Crit surge will still be the powerfull offensive self heal, while power surge is passive weaker group heal that ticks ever 2 secs. Mind you only other HoT in sorcerer class is Negate ultimate, rest are all burst heals and surge is proc heal.

MashmalloMan

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

Surge definitely needs work, but your idea is sooooo overloaded lol. Keep in mind, Power Surge is intended for healers and it's the only class HoT we have. I quite like the idea of it, but it's functionally challenged.

Simple changes I've suggested:

1. Crit Surge - increase to 4k from 3.3k, increase duration from 33s to 60s.
- Easier to manage like Molten Armaments, Lotus Flower, or Channeled Acceleration. Keeps up with ESO's power creep.
2. Power Surge - reduce CD from 3s to 2s. Reduce heal from 2550 to 2k. Reduce duration from 33s to 30s.
- Proc lines up better with tick frequency of heals being 2/1s, nothing is 3s. Small bump to heal/s from potential 850/s to 1k/s.

This would make both morphs more intuitive. Crit Surge basically doubles the effects, but only for yourself. This morph choice is similar to how Lotus and Channeled Acceleration interact.

Probalem with sorcer is lack of HoT skills and power surge is not really considered as such as you need a different healing skill to proc power surge otherwise it is useless, hence why I suggested to steer away from the proc part and just make the skill a true HoT. This change will probably reverse the change to wards heal which is where the contravesy is. Crit surge will still be the powerfull offensive self heal, while power surge is passive weaker group heal that ticks ever 2 secs. Mind you only other HoT in sorcerer class is Negate ultimate, rest are all burst heals and surge is proc heal.

I wouldn't say the heal on shield is controversial. Those skills have been undervalued for 5+ years now and people are just scared sorc is being brought up to speed with all the buffs other classes received with hybridization. We've largely remained the same throughout that time. Adding Minor berserk to Dark Conversion and a small bump to the heal you still have a cast time for didn't do nearly as much as what every other class got.

All it needs is a bit of fine tuning. Maybe downgrade to 12/8 % to account for the add 10% mag we're getting. The HP cap on the shield is also way too high at 72% on hardened.

Sorc however does not need a guaranteed long duration hot, especially with Wards new effect and Vigor being hybrid. That problem is old news when Rapid Regen was the only hot a sorc could get. It's a part of the identity of the class to get our one and only hot, passively, from being offensive and it's a pretty good one at that. Look at how low the scaling is for Siphoning Strikes at 1800, not attached to Crits. It's definitely op in numerous ways, but there is no denying it's much less than our 3300.

Power Surge is a healer morph, if you're trying to use it as a solo player of course it's going to appear as weak. By making it a % HP heal you're gutting it for healers and killing the power fantasy of the skill. First, if it was guaranteed and ticked once every 2s with an 18m radius, it could NOT be 15-20% HP. Try between 3-5%. Second, a sorc healer would be massively punished for using this as it would clearly be better for tanks. Tanks shouldn't be healing other players like this, Polar Wind as an example is wildly known for being currently broken.

universal_wrath

MashmalloMan wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

Surge definitely needs work, but your idea is sooooo overloaded lol. Keep in mind, Power Surge is intended for healers and it's the only class HoT we have. I quite like the idea of it, but it's functionally challenged.

Simple changes I've suggested:

1. Crit Surge - increase to 4k from 3.3k, increase duration from 33s to 60s.
- Easier to manage like Molten Armaments, Lotus Flower, or Channeled Acceleration. Keeps up with ESO's power creep.
2. Power Surge - reduce CD from 3s to 2s. Reduce heal from 2550 to 2k. Reduce duration from 33s to 30s.
- Proc lines up better with tick frequency of heals being 2/1s, nothing is 3s. Small bump to heal/s from potential 850/s to 1k/s.

This would make both morphs more intuitive. Crit Surge basically doubles the effects, but only for yourself. This morph choice is similar to how Lotus and Channeled Acceleration interact.

Probalem with sorcer is lack of HoT skills and power surge is not really considered as such as you need a different healing skill to proc power surge otherwise it is useless, hence why I suggested to steer away from the proc part and just make the skill a true HoT. This change will probably reverse the change to wards heal which is where the contravesy is. Crit surge will still be the powerfull offensive self heal, while power surge is passive weaker group heal that ticks ever 2 secs. Mind you only other HoT in sorcerer class is Negate ultimate, rest are all burst heals and surge is proc heal.

I wouldn't say the heal on shield is controversial. Those skills have been undervalued for 5+ years now and people are just scared sorc is being brought up to speed with all the buffs other classes received with hybridization. We've largely remained the same throughout that time. Adding Minor berserk to Dark Conversion and a small bump to the heal you still have a cast time for didn't do nearly as much as what every other class got.

All it needs is a bit of fine tuning. Maybe downgrade to 12/8 % to account for the add 10% mag we're getting. The HP cap on the shield is also way too high at 72% on hardened.

Sorc however does not need a guaranteed long duration hot, especially with Wards new effect and Vigor being hybrid. That problem is old news when Rapid Regen was the only hot a sorc could get. It's a part of the identity of the class to get our one and only hot, passively, from being offensive and it's a pretty good one at that. Look at how low the scaling is for Siphoning Strikes at 1800, not attached to Crits. It's definitely op in numerous ways, but there is no denying it's much less than our 3300.

Power Surge is a healer morph, if you're trying to use it as a solo player of course it's going to appear as weak. By making it a % HP heal you're gutting it for healers and killing the power fantasy of the skill. First, if it was guaranteed and ticked once every 2s with an 18m radius, it could NOT be 15-20% HP. Try between 3-5%. Second, a sorc healer would be massively punished for using this as it would clearly be better for tanks. Tanks shouldn't be healing other players like this, Polar Wind as an example is wildly known for being currently broken.

I meant the 15-20% HP for powet surge on activstion only, and then it just rolls with its current healing output or lower to factor in the garnteed healing. I really believe no class should rely on external skills like vigor to be main skills.

Non class skills should complement and support an already complete set up consist mainly of class skills. That is why I said current power surge is faulty in function, best way to proc it is to use a hot aka vigor or regen to proc the skill, so *** if you don't use any hot? Unless you can garnteed a crit healing all yhe time from burst heal skills like conceraion or matriach, it is a usless skill. This concept should not only apply to healing skills, but also support and dmg skills.

Duke_Falcon

The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking the heal on Hardened Ward for patch 9.3.2 is just what the class needs. Vigor is an okay HoT, but Healing Ward is a better HoT for Mag Sorc Shield users. The trade off is Desto back bar for Resto back bar, so you loose Major Breach from Elly Sus, but you then can run Bound Aegis for all the buffs it gives. As Sorc healing is so garbage, thats what I've been doing lately.

Then to compensate for the lack of Pen, I'm trying to build into Crit Chance to offset it. I'm really struggling to find that balance in PvP though since so many targets set at 33k resistances.

Another thing that makes that a struggle is that "Max Mag is your Armor" pretty sure I read that in a lore book somewhere in this game, so building into Max Mag, Crit, and Pen is very very very hard to balance on Mag Sorcs builds atm.

davelbier

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking the heal on Hardened Ward for patch 9.3.2 is just what the class needs. Vigor is an okay HoT, but Healing Ward is a better HoT for Mag Sorc Shield users. The trade off is Desto back bar for Resto back bar, so you loose Major Breach from Elly Sus, but you then can run Bound Aegis for all the buffs it gives. As Sorc healing is so garbage, thats what I've been doing lately.

Then to compensate for the lack of Pen, I'm trying to build into Crit Chance to offset it. I'm really struggling to find that balance in PvP though since so many targets set at 33k resistances.

Another thing that makes that a struggle is that "Max Mag is your Armor" pretty sure I read that in a lore book somewhere in this game, so building into Max Mag, Crit, and Pen is very very very hard to balance on Mag Sorcs builds atm.

id like to see the class have breach as a native debuff, instead of needing another skill line.
but also...and i mean i may take a magsorc into pvp again due to some changes coming up...between this and arcanist maybe i should break out Shield Breaker again for kicks.

Turtle_Bot

davelbier wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking the heal on Hardened Ward for patch 9.3.2 is just what the class needs. Vigor is an okay HoT, but Healing Ward is a better HoT for Mag Sorc Shield users. The trade off is Desto back bar for Resto back bar, so you loose Major Breach from Elly Sus, but you then can run Bound Aegis for all the buffs it gives. As Sorc healing is so garbage, thats what I've been doing lately.

Then to compensate for the lack of Pen, I'm trying to build into Crit Chance to offset it. I'm really struggling to find that balance in PvP though since so many targets set at 33k resistances.

Another thing that makes that a struggle is that "Max Mag is your Armor" pretty sure I read that in a lore book somewhere in this game, so building into Max Mag, Crit, and Pen is very very very hard to balance on Mag Sorcs builds atm.

id like to see the class have breach as a native debuff, instead of needing another skill line.
but also...and i mean i may take a magsorc into pvp again due to some changes coming up...between this and arcanist maybe i should break out Shield Breaker again for kicks.

shhh, you're giving away the BiS front bar set for the first week or 2 of next patch when everyone is testing out their sorcerers.

davelbier

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

shhh, you're giving away the BiS front bar set for the first week or 2 of next patch when everyone is testing out their sorcerers.

lol I know itll get nerfed down so a new, similar and temporarily OP set can get released in a new dungeon or something but...

I also vote in for having passives active on both bars for something slotted on a bar. like a pet [not for me], or...maybe charge up/give chance for crystal frags based on either bar a-la merciless resolve.

katorga

MashmalloMan wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Why not move the new healing part of wards to other morph of critical surge that nobody uses (maybe some healer out there use it)? Change howpower surge work from being a heal on crit heal every 3 secs to giving 15-20% of max HP and AoE heal ever 2-3 secs attached to player, reduce the duration to 15-20 secs.

Keep wards as they are because they are good that way, and use other skills almost nobody use.

Surge definitely needs work, but your idea is sooooo overloaded lol.

Nightblade says Hello.

It is not overloaded in comparison to what ZOS has done with NB, Arcanist and DK.

It is overloaded in comparison to Necro, Templar and the other trash classes.

xylena_lazarow

All PvP Sorc needed was Major Savagery on a class skill.

RemoryAzure

guys, as a previously sorc main, i actually already glad with what they did on pts and i kinda think its enough, atleast for now.

lets see how it goes into live, on a big scene with many different kind of players and skill levels, and only then analyze what can be improved next, coz this is the biggest change sorc got in years.

for example, hardened ward now reaches a total heal+shield value of soulcleaver's NB, but it still works like an additive hp layer letting u to survive insane bursts

or status proc changes basically make crushing shock the biggest damage spammable in the game, and its further amplified by sorc's amplitude and energized passives (not even mentioning raw stat boosts like 18% mana from aegis+expertsummoner), effectively making sorc the best class for this specific skill.

FYI, crushing shock with draugrkin and charged trait, with all effects procced can reach about 80% of NB's bowproc damage. and its crazy coz its spammable.
ofc im talking about non-crit numbers, its actually a mess with crits considered due to how split the damage is, but still, ON AVERAGE, assuming both proc chance and crit chance, crushing shock is gonna do like 45% damage of CRIT bow proc every single cast (and 10% more than average concealed weapon btw)

so, from what i see here, sorc now has an instant healing tool (the main reason a stopped playing it) and its even better than i could imagine, and also got a huge boost to its main damage source, greatly improving its non-burst playstyle idea together with overload. i couldnt possibly ask for more.

Jsmalls

RemoryAzure wrote: »

or status proc changes basically make crushing shock the biggest damage spammable in the game, and its further amplified by sorc's amplitude and energized passives (not even mentioning raw stat boosts like 18% mana from aegis+expertsummoner), effectively making sorc the best class for this specific skill.

FYI, crushing shock with draugrkin and charged trait, with all effects procced can reach about 80% of NB's bowproc damage. and its crazy coz its spammable.
ofc im talking about non-crit numbers, its actually a mess with crits considered due to how split the damage is, but still, ON AVERAGE, assuming both proc chance and crit chance, crushing shock is gonna do like 45% damage of CRIT bow proc every single cast (and 10% more than average concealed weapon btw)

This sounds like it's overperforming.

What kind of DPS is this outputting?

RemoryAzure

Jsmalls wrote: »

This sounds like it's overperforming.

What kind of DPS is this outputting?

honestly i have no idea, i havent bothered downloading pts client coz i have no space on my drive right now

im just doing recalculations from what i know, from how it was before, and reapplying new numbers, and im sure my calculations are correct coz i was never wrong with game's mechanics in my life, up to the point when i discovered (derived? not sure with english) a logarithmic crit chance formula in one game and a complex skill damage formula in another one

so, in case of ESO the mechanics are extremely simplistic

base skill damage is 696 x3

proc chance is now changed from 62.5% to 49.5% (charged + passive + cp)

chill damage changed from 179 to 368, effectively 368x0.495 = 182 every cast

concussion damage from 179 to 423 (for every proc after the first), effectively +209 every cast

now we can also add sundered coz its, imo, the best option for the weapon enchant, and its almost guaranteed to apply with the double of the usual chance of 99% (im adding it mostly for the sake of draurkin later on)
same goes here, 179 changed to 368, but since it happens every 4 sec, we divide it by 4, effectively +92 dmg every cast

as for the burning, it has an interesting interaction, when it can "double proc", but actually it happens when u fail it to proc on one attack and then it ticks right before u reapply it, so this basically means, that in every 4 seconds, the only way to get less than 4 ticks is when u fail either 2 procs in a row or 3, well 4 and more aswell, but the chance for this is extremely low on practice, so we are basically talking about 0.505^2+0.505^3 = 38% chance to lose 1 tick in every 4 seconds, or 9.6 ticks in every 100 sec, so with 49.5% proc chance u will be actually getting about 90 ticks every 100 secs
which means, burning proc damage (which was reduced from 359 to 337) is effectively +303 for every cast

and the last thing, is that crushing shock is the most effective with the draugrkin set. its bonus is flat, added as the very last modifier, so we cant just slap it into everything, instead, what we gonna do is assume that total skill damage is usually around 4 times higher than the basic one (for example, 2400 damage skill becomes roughly 9600 with full build and buffs but before cp), so to VIRTUALLY add draugrkin into the basic skill damage (to be able to compare it with other skills) we divide it by 4.
330/4 = 82.5 (for each basic skill damage instance)
82.5x0.9 = 74.2 (for burning)
82.5x0.495 = 40.8 (for chill and concussion)
82.5x0.25 = 20.6 (for sundered)

and also remember that it's a staff skill so it has a unique passive of increasing any direct damage but not status effects by 12%

so in total we are reaching the damage of
(696x3+82.5x3)x1.12+182+209+92+303+40.8x2+20.6+74.2 = 3578 damage, +5% from concussion = 3757 AVERAGE BASIC DAMAGE every cast (with no crits added in the calculation)

in comparison, concealed has base damage of 2556, plus 10% after stealth, plus roughly 10% from, for example, war maiden set (since we calculated crushing shock with a 5x draugrkin bonus, we need to also use any nice 5x bonus for concealed to make the comparison), and also roughly 5% more from vamp's passive which also easily accessed with the concealed's "after stealth" bonus and not easily accessed by sorc, it goes additively to that war maiden's bonus, for a total of 3233 damage.

and bow proc has a 4752 base damage, yet again, no stealth bonus now from concealed, but its also used at 5 stacks so basically more weapon damage so with vamp's passive and war maiden it goes 4752x1.2 = 5702

as for crushing shock, with every single status proc, it has a basic damage of
(696x3+82.5x3)*1.12+368+423+337+368+82.5*4 = 4441 (78% of bowproc)

i'll check it on live when the patch drops but im 99.9% sure of what i just wrote here, crushing shock spam is gonna be 10% better than concealed spam and lucky-proc crushing shock will hit like a truck in pvp
also, i didnt even include asylum stuff in these calculations, it has a unique feature of adding more procs ON TOP of existing, like u can proc concussion twice with the single use of crushing shock, so when u add that to draugrkin, it easily bumps ur lucky-full-proc crushing shock to the actual bowproc damage level, all u need to do is to spam the button until the enemy suddenly dies with like 15 lines from single spell in add-on damage recap

Entaro

One thing about Sorcerer that I don't know if is an oversight, but why does Conjured Ward only scale on Magicka or Max Health and not Stamina?

This is the only ability in the game that remains non-hybridized.

RemoryAzure

Entaro wrote: »

One thing about Sorcerer that I don't know if is an oversight, but why does Conjured Ward only scale on Magicka or Max Health and not Stamina?

This is the only ability in the game that remains non-hybridized.

man, look at that Unstable Wall of Text Elements i wrote, are u really need to belittle it with such a question? cant u just admire for a moment?

jokes aside, i guess its for balance reasons. for years stam sorc was waaaay better than magsorc, it was not only playable (magsorc wasnt), but even a decent class. so if u give stamsorc a full shield potential, its not gonna be nice attitude to a magsorc. but, anyway, u wont be able to use it much coz of manacost. and there is no point to stack max stam when u have so many good sets to choose from. and if u change one of the morphs to be a stam-costing stam-scaling version then stamsorc is gonna be a much superior version again. its nicer to leave it as it is, so that this patch actually raises a magsorc to the powerlevel of stam one

Jsmalls

@RemoryAzure

I'm not gonna quote it cuz of the length, but I've already heard from others testing that Draugrkin with force pulse will be meta next patch. So your thought process is definitely supported.

I can't confirm or deny the asylum staff thing but I wouldn't think you can proc 2x of the same status effect on the same turn from the same ability but could definitely be wrong.

That being said I really don't want a ranged spammable skill doing THAT much damage with just one set of investment. Sounds overpowered and like a terrible new meta to follow Master DW.

Force pulse and charged is already strong on live with Draugrkin. Hopefully this gets looked into before going live...

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This sounds like it's overperforming.

What kind of DPS is this outputting?

honestly i have no idea, i havent bothered downloading pts client coz i have no space on my drive right now

im just doing recalculations from what i know, from how it was before, and reapplying new numbers, and im sure my calculations are correct coz i was never wrong with game's mechanics in my life, up to the point when i discovered (derived? not sure with english) a logarithmic crit chance formula in one game and a complex skill damage formula in another one

so, in case of ESO the mechanics are extremely simplistic

base skill damage is 696 x3

proc chance is now changed from 62.5% to 49.5% (charged + passive + cp)

chill damage changed from 179 to 368, effectively 368x0.495 = 182 every cast

concussion damage from 179 to 423 (for every proc after the first), effectively +209 every cast

now we can also add sundered coz its, imo, the best option for the weapon enchant, and its almost guaranteed to apply with the double of the usual chance of 99% (im adding it mostly for the sake of draurkin later on)
same goes here, 179 changed to 368, but since it happens every 4 sec, we divide it by 4, effectively +92 dmg every cast

as for the burning, it has an interesting interaction, when it can "double proc", but actually it happens when u fail it to proc on one attack and then it ticks right before u reapply it, so this basically means, that in every 4 seconds, the only way to get less than 4 ticks is when u fail either 2 procs in a row or 3, well 4 and more aswell, but the chance for this is extremely low on practice, so we are basically talking about 0.505^2+0.505^3 = 38% chance to lose 1 tick in every 4 seconds, or 9.6 ticks in every 100 sec, so with 49.5% proc chance u will be actually getting about 90 ticks every 100 secs
which means, burning proc damage (which was reduced from 359 to 337) is effectively +303 for every cast

and the last thing, is that crushing shock is the most effective with the draugrkin set. its bonus is flat, added as the very last modifier, so we cant just slap it into everything, instead, what we gonna do is assume that total skill damage is usually around 4 times higher than the basic one (for example, 2400 damage skill becomes roughly 9600 with full build and buffs but before cp), so to VIRTUALLY add draugrkin into the basic skill damage (to be able to compare it with other skills) we divide it by 4.
330/4 = 82.5 (for each basic skill damage instance)
82.5x0.9 = 74.2 (for burning)
82.5x0.495 = 40.8 (for chill and concussion)
82.5x0.25 = 20.6 (for sundered)

and also remember that it's a staff skill so it has a unique passive of increasing any direct damage but not status effects by 12%

so in total we are reaching the damage of
(696x3+82.5x3)x1.12+182+209+92+303+40.8x2+20.6+74.2 = 3578 damage, +5% from concussion = 3757 AVERAGE BASIC DAMAGE every cast (with no crits added in the calculation)

in comparison, concealed has base damage of 2556, plus 10% after stealth, plus roughly 10% from, for example, war maiden set (since we calculated crushing shock with a 5x draugrkin bonus, we need to also use any nice 5x bonus for concealed to make the comparison), and also roughly 5% more from vamp's passive which also easily accessed with the concealed's "after stealth" bonus and not easily accessed by sorc, it goes additively to that war maiden's bonus, for a total of 3233 damage.

and bow proc has a 4752 base damage, yet again, no stealth bonus now from concealed, but its also used at 5 stacks so basically more weapon damage so with vamp's passive and war maiden it goes 4752x1.2 = 5702

as for crushing shock, with every single status proc, it has a basic damage of
(696x3+82.5x3)*1.12+368+423+303+368+82.5*4 = 4407 (77% of bowproc)

i'll check it on live when the patch drops but im 99.9% sure of what i just wrote here, crushing shock spam is gonna be 10% better than concealed spam and lucky-proc crushing shock will hit like a truck in pvp
also, i didnt even include asylum stuff in these calculations, it has a unique feature of adding more procs ON TOP of existing, like u can proc concussion twice with the single use of crushing shock, so when u add that to draugrkin, it easily bumps ur lucky-full-proc crushing shock to the actual bowproc damage level, all u need to do is to spam the button until the enemy suddenly dies with like 15 lines from single spell in add-on damage recap

Hmmm, yeah, from my testing of sorc on the PTS, the changes to status effects and the unique interaction between draugrkin and multi-damage abilities (crushing shock + status, ele sus + status + vate, jabs + burning light, etc.) were what was making magsorc (well most classes) very strong next patch, significantly more so than the actual buffs sorcerer itself received.
This is also something that DK (burning), warden (chilled), Arcanist (in class charged/damage buff to status effects), NB (invis/guaranteed crit/vamp synergy) and even plar (javelin/beam) can all produce their own unique interactions/takes for this setup. (RIP necro, at least its burning/poison DoTs will hit hard I guess?)

Warden is a big benefiter of these status effect changes and this setup becoming popular, since it has a free cleanse, a big shield that counters multiple ranged attacks and the best heal in the game (polar) that wants wardens to stack max health already so it has naturally built in counters to this setup while also being one of the best users of this setup thanks to all the reworks that buff it when equipping a frost staff.

Hopefully the devs realize this interaction for what it really is (old set + new generic combat changes), so that sorc doesn't have to suffer another U35 level of gutting in the near future because an old set had unintended interactions with new generic combat changes... Savage Werewolf + crystal/crushing weapon...

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

@RemoryAzure

I'm not gonna quote it cuz of the length, but I've already heard from others testing that Draugrkin with force pulse will be meta next patch. So your thought process is definitely supported.

I can't confirm or deny the asylum staff thing but I wouldn't think you can proc 2x of the same status effect on the same turn from the same ability but could definitely be wrong.

That being said I really don't want a ranged spammable skill doing THAT much damage with just one set of investment. Sounds overpowered and like a terrible new meta to follow Master DW.

Force pulse and charged is already strong on live with Draugrkin. Hopefully this gets looked into before going live...

This is partially why I haven't been as concerned about the max mag stacking build. It is strong when compared to existing options sorc already has, but it has no access to these sets to get this level of offensive power unless those shields are brought down to a more reasonable level by not going 60k+ max mag.

Also, dark exchange will become impossible to use as a heal next patch, everyone will be running crushing shock (ranged interrupt), so sorc needed a viable alternative way to defend/heal itself.

RemoryAzure

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm not gonna quote

u can quote partially :в

as for the asylum - yes u can. even malcolm (iirc), the biggest eso sorc youtuber, said this in one of his vids couple of years ago. i havent been playing sorc lately but i dont think this has changed since then, testing required to confirm its still a thing.

and regarding crushing shock... im not sure if it will be enough to be op or not, its anyway just a spammable being brought to be the top1 in the game, the other stuff in the class kit is what also important. sorc really needed some damage, and this is a good way to fix that, coz its not only buffing the sorc's damage, but giving other classes a build diversity, a chance to go for a crushing shock aswell or just utilize procs+draugrkin in own way like for example arcanists's spammable is also a 3-hit skill but with a huge crit chance.

as @Turtle_Bot said, warden for example is gonna be basically like sorc but better.
but i dont think that this meta is of any use for NB for example, but really, is he needed any buff? no, but he still got it.

btw, @Turtle_Bot , since u have access to pts, can u please check and confirm if asylum staff is still able to proc effects twice on cast?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hopefully the devs realize this interaction for what it really is (old set + new generic combat changes), so that sorc doesn't have to suffer another U35 level of gutting in the near future because an old set had unintended interactions with new generic combat changes... Savage Werewolf + crystal/crushing weapon...

i remember savage was nerfed to be melee-only, if they do something with the draugrkin after this patch, we'll just find something that simply fits sorc's build but still utilizes full potential of procs. i can live with that, actually. its better that they dont touch procs themselves

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm not gonna quote

u can quote partially :в

as for the asylum - yes u can. even malcolm (iirc), the biggest eso sorc youtuber, said this in one of his vids couple of years ago. i havent been playing sorc lately but i dont think this has changed since then, testing required to confirm its still a thing.

and regarding crushing shock... im not sure if it will be enough to be op or not, its anyway just a spammable being brought to be the top1 in the game, the other stuff in the class kit is what also important. sorc really needed some damage, and this is a good way to fix that, coz its not only buffing the sorc's damage, but giving other classes a build diversity, a chance to go for a crushing shock aswell or just utilize procs+draugrkin in own way like for example arcanists's spammable is also a 3-hit skill but with a huge crit chance.

as @Turtle_Bot said, warden for example is gonna be basically like sorc but better.
but i dont think that this meta is of any use for NB for example, but really, is he needed any buff? no, but he still got it.

btw, @Turtle_Bot , since u have access to pts, can u please check and confirm if asylum staff is still able to proc effects twice on cast?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hopefully the devs realize this interaction for what it really is (old set + new generic combat changes), so that sorc doesn't have to suffer another U35 level of gutting in the near future because an old set had unintended interactions with new generic combat changes... Savage Werewolf + crystal/crushing weapon...

i remember savage was nerfed to be melee-only, if they do something with the draugrkin after this patch, we'll just find something that simply fits sorc's build but still utilizes full potential of procs. i can live with that, actually. its better that they dont touch procs themselves

I'll try to remember if I get some time to jump on the PTS later.

Yeah, I'm just hoping ZOS realizes its the set and not the class this time around. U35 brought a lot of nerfs to everyone, but sorcerer got hit especially hard in that patch (on top of savage werewolf getting fixed). So much so that ZOS had to buff 2 abilities by 100% or more (BA and prey) in the final week of that same PTS just to bring pet builds back up to par for PvE.

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

btw, @Turtle_Bot , since u have access to pts, can u please check and confirm if asylum staff is still able to proc effects twice on cast?

Did a quick test on PTS, just asylum staff equipped on a warden.

Not 100% sure if it does or doesn't (not an expert with CMX, sorry). It seems to at least guarantee the status effects on the second cast though as seen in the first image in the spoiler.

There were occasionally some additional hits of status effects occasionally above the number of times I cast force pulse (seen with concussed in the second image that has 3 hits despite force pulse only being cast twice, but it was very limited if it is double proccing, with only a max of one status effect getting it and only getting it once per double cast of force pulse, even with a charged staff.

Hope this helps, sorry I couldn't go more in-depth for you.

Glantir

ZoS changed many abilities to that they work passive or/and from the backbar. I would like to see that change to crit surge too. Let the Major Buffs work without Skill activation and from the backbar and change the heal to e.g. Heal a small amount for every Hit and a bigger heal on crits and on activation a hot

Or on activation the heal thing i mentioned before.

Pelanora

Omg the damage accounting. Hurts my brain. It's as bad as talking to tax accountants. Just someone give me the new rotations lol.

RemoryAzure

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hope this helps, sorry I couldn't go more in-depth for you.

yep, thanks bro, it definitely still works

for 2 casts there is a 24.5% chance to get 3/3 procs of any status (since asylum is guaranteed and u need to get both random procs with a 49.5% chance with all passives, charged and cp's)
so its normal that u got 3 procs only like 1 out of 4 tests.

and it still means that u can get a total of 9 damage numbers on the screen in a single cast with 12% chance of proccing all 3 statuses on top of guaranteed asylum (or 1.5% chance of getting 12 instances of damage in a single cast with enchant, its proc and if u did NOT proc burning in the previous cast before asylum's guaranteed one)

this basically means that just by spamming crushing shock u have 12% chance to do literally the full damage of nb's bow proc (~95% of it to be exact, but still a bit less considering a bowproc can benefit from crit damage as a whole single number)

RemoryAzure

Pelanora wrote: »

Omg the damage accounting. Hurts my brain. It's as bad as talking to tax accountants. Just someone give me the new rotations lol.

i dont think something's gonna change in pve but im not the expert
as for pvp, a build with draugrkin and asylum basically makes haunting and crystal fragments proc totally obsolete coz with updated proc damage its just better and easier to spam crushing shock and free the bar space for something more useful, sorc always had troubles with it, unless they actually heed to the players and add major breach into haunting

Turtle_Bot

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hope this helps, sorry I couldn't go more in-depth for you.

yep, thanks bro, it definitely still works

for 2 casts there is a 24.5% chance to get 3/3 procs of any status (since asylum is guaranteed and u need to get both random procs with a 49.5% chance with all passives, charged and cp's)
so its normal that u got 3 procs only like 1 out of 4 tests.

and it still means that u can get a total of 9 damage numbers on the screen in a single cast with 12% chance of proccing all 3 statuses on top of guaranteed asylum (or 1.5% chance of getting 12 instances of damage in a single cast with enchant, its proc and if u did NOT proc burning in the previous cast before asylum's guaranteed one)

this basically means that just by spamming crushing shock u have 12% chance to do literally the full damage of nb's bow proc (~95% of it to be exact, but still a bit less considering a bowproc can benefit from crit damage as a whole single number)

Glad I could help.

hmmm, thinking more on it, Arcanist might just be the best class for this build, +55% chance to proc all status effects (on top of charged trait) and the +15% buff to the damage status effects deal is unchanged. Arcanist still has almost all of its defensive kit too, and has plenty of utility to boot. It's shields are also the strongest in the game so it's less hindered by draugrkin's 10% reduced healing which will be active all the time to have asylum staff front bar.

Some testing will need to be done for NB, I can't remember if cloaks guaranteed crit works for all hits of force pulse or just 1, that could get nasty too if it works for all hits and the guaranteed status procs depending if they all count as 1 "attack" for the purpose of the guaranteed crit. NB will essentially have double bow procs if this is the case.

Definitely needs some proper testing on live though, unfortunately we cannot replicate live PvP conditions properly on PTS servers.