Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

MashmalloMan · February 19

RemoryAzure wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

So stam sorc doesn't exist huh?

I don't want any of this lol.

stam sorc is fine, it is atleast playable on live servers right now.
the problem is magsorc doesnt. its time to bring him back

I have nothing against that, but did you even read their suggestion?

You have to think about both parties, not just yourself.

MashmalloMan · February 19

Shagreth wrote: »

I was hoping I would be able stay competitive without pets but alas, the gap is still too big. I frigging hate pets and refuse to keep playing my sorc with them.

Same boat, but it's mainly because I hate the rotation of relying on Daedric Prey and the limited bar space, not specifically the pets themself.

My main problem is they're useless in a lot of content, so where a class like DK can transition from trials, to dungeons, to solo arena's, to PVP without changing very much about their build, we can't. A lot of our damage and defence is tied to them so we automatically lose a bit of our classes potential when we can't run them.

Pets are only useful in trials and dungeons where they don't die and it's about max possible DPS.

The most DPS I can get with pets, no overload cheese, and imperfect rele, is about 122k, should be about 125k with status effect changes and perfect rele on pts if I were to guess.

If I can get 115k without pets I'd be happy. The most I can do on live is like 102k.

The other issue is there just isn't very many good skills to run in the pets place. The rotation becomes much harder juggling 12s haunting curse, 4s bound Armaments and the rng of crystal frag, while you get way less AOE DPS and concussed procs without Unstable Familiar.

Lightning Splash needs a massive upgrade. Haunting Curse needs a no pet buff like +5% damage with class skills or +10% to monsters so it doesn't buff us in PVP where we don't need it. Fury is just bad, the HP % needs to go up to 25% for one morph to keep the original delayed proc identity with the other morph scaling from 50% like the best executes in the game (Executioner, Radiant Oppression, etc). It sits dead on the bar for 90% of the fight because by the time you get to 20%hp everyone's DPS goes up. It's the quickest phase.

katorga · February 19

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

Another thing that makes that a struggle is that "Max Mag is your Armor" pretty sure I read that in a lore book somewhere in this game, so building into Max Mag, Crit, and Pen is very very very hard to balance on Mag Sorcs builds atm.

Heresy, but on a mag sorc on live I think it is better to stack max spell damage, and health. If you go full max mag, you don't have enough health (72% cap) to reach the full shield size that 50K or more magicka is capable of. You ended up with more damage and defense stacking spell damage and max health.

Even with the changes damage shields are less efficient and less powerful than block casting a real burst heal, like NB, DK,s and the other classes have.

Ezhh · February 19

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

One improvement ZoS could do is Major Resolve on Bound Aegis instead of Minor, similar to what they've done for Acranist with Major Brutality/Sorcery. Then it would at least free up the Monster Set so we don't have to run Chudan.

Put the Major Prophecy on Hurricane or Lighting Form.

Please no. I know there are issues with which buffs sorc has and where, but as a long time sorc main I can't see this being the way to go. Stam sorc would lose any option for major resolve and then my sorc tank gets a somewhat useless buff on Hurricane and has to find a way to slot Aegis, which is mostly not needed on tank atm, so bar space issues go up.

MashmalloMan · February 19

katorga wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

Another thing that makes that a struggle is that "Max Mag is your Armor" pretty sure I read that in a lore book somewhere in this game, so building into Max Mag, Crit, and Pen is very very very hard to balance on Mag Sorcs builds atm.

Heresy, but on a mag sorc on live I think it is better to stack max spell damage, and health. If you go full max mag, you don't have enough health (72% cap) to reach the full shield size that 50K or more magicka is capable of. You ended up with more damage and defense stacking spell damage and max health.

Even with the changes damage shields are less efficient and less powerful than block casting a real burst heal, like NB, DK,s and the other classes have.

Yeah.. also people like to compare Hardened Ward on live and pts to burst heals by the tooltip alone.

Hardened Ward can't crit, it doesn't get block mitigation, it doesn't prevent execute damage scaling, so if you pop HW at 10% health, their execute is still dealing 10% health damage despite your effective health being above 50%. The burst heal attached to it is definitely going to help that problem a bit. I'm excited to see what mag sorcs do with it.

I personally don't play mag sorc in PVP, so I'm the one who has to fight them too. I guess I'll learn real quick if it's an over buff or not, but this is a long time coming.

Before they added HP scaling to shields like last year, I was adamant that the solution was simply to allow them to scale like every other skill in the game. Damage and max resources, like resto wards.

This would have had a domino effect in so many ways, max stat sets are undervalued, scale poorly, and cant compare to the options proc and damage sets have. They've only doubled down since with the HP scaling and now %stam/mag for no pet sorc.

So I guess it's not going anywhere.

MashmalloMan · February 19

RemoryAzure wrote: »

upd1:
asylum still definitely works as before, right here i got 4 concussion and 4 chill procs over 3 casts of CS, thats maximum possible for both

Question.

Usually when you start a parse, the first attack isn't recorded. Did you start this with a light attack or a FP?

Because this test is implying you got 4 concussed procs from 3 casts if FP. Was it actually 4 casts and 1 wasn't recorded or are you saying that Asylum Destro procs it's own separate versions of chilled/concussed/burning outside the skill itself.

I'd be very surprised if that's how it works. Skills that give guaranteed procs like Blighted Blastbones for example, don't get a second potential proc from the base skill too.

This is a set though. So clarification would be appreciated

RemoryAzure · February 19

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Question.

Usually when you start a parse, the first attack isn't recorded. Did you start this with a light attack or a FP?

Because this test is implying you got 4 concussed procs from 3 casts if FP. Was it actually 4 casts and 1 wasn't recorded or are you saying that Asylum Destro procs it's own separate versions of chilled/concussed/burning outside the skill itself.

I'd be very surprised if that's how it works. Skills that give guaranteed procs like Blighted Blastbones for example, don't get a second potential proc from the base skill too.

This is a set though. So clarification would be appreciated

in this particular test i was just using crushing shock and nothing else to kill that lurcher, i made him die in 3 hits. i dont lose any attacks at start of the parse.

and yes, asylum was known for a long time for applying its own additional procs on top of basic ones. i thought they might nerf it in some way due to this patch but i tested and it still works as before. btw, on one of my other tests i managed to get 13 procs from 10 casts :в

well, here's the vid for u to check that it works exactly like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfemiix2vkw

(wait for 1440p to appear, just uploaded)

MashmalloMan · February 20

RemoryAzure wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Question.

Usually when you start a parse, the first attack isn't recorded. Did you start this with a light attack or a FP?

Because this test is implying you got 4 concussed procs from 3 casts if FP. Was it actually 4 casts and 1 wasn't recorded or are you saying that Asylum Destro procs it's own separate versions of chilled/concussed/burning outside the skill itself.

I'd be very surprised if that's how it works. Skills that give guaranteed procs like Blighted Blastbones for example, don't get a second potential proc from the base skill too.

This is a set though. So clarification would be appreciated

in this particular test i was just using crushing shock and nothing else to kill that lurcher, i made him die in 3 hits. i dont lose any attacks at start of the parse.

and yes, asylum was known for a long time for applying its own additional procs on top of basic ones. i thought they might nerf it in some way due to this patch but i tested and it still works as before. btw, on one of my other tests i managed to get 13 procs from 10 casts :в

well, here's the vid for u to check that it works exactly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfemiix2vkw
(wait for 1440p to appear, just uploaded)

The more you know.

I thought AS Destro would be redundant with charged.

Guess I'm behind. Thanks.

Tannus15 · February 20

MashmalloMan wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Question.

Usually when you start a parse, the first attack isn't recorded. Did you start this with a light attack or a FP?

Because this test is implying you got 4 concussed procs from 3 casts if FP. Was it actually 4 casts and 1 wasn't recorded or are you saying that Asylum Destro procs it's own separate versions of chilled/concussed/burning outside the skill itself.

I'd be very surprised if that's how it works. Skills that give guaranteed procs like Blighted Blastbones for example, don't get a second potential proc from the base skill too.

This is a set though. So clarification would be appreciated

in this particular test i was just using crushing shock and nothing else to kill that lurcher, i made him die in 3 hits. i dont lose any attacks at start of the parse.

and yes, asylum was known for a long time for applying its own additional procs on top of basic ones. i thought they might nerf it in some way due to this patch but i tested and it still works as before. btw, on one of my other tests i managed to get 13 procs from 10 casts :в

well, here's the vid for u to check that it works exactly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfemiix2vkw
(wait for 1440p to appear, just uploaded)

The more you know.

I thought AS Destro would be redundant with charged.

Guess I'm behind. Thanks.

if you're running pets you want charged. prey + the pet status procs is stronk.

MashmalloMan · February 20

Tannus15 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Question.

Usually when you start a parse, the first attack isn't recorded. Did you start this with a light attack or a FP?

Because this test is implying you got 4 concussed procs from 3 casts if FP. Was it actually 4 casts and 1 wasn't recorded or are you saying that Asylum Destro procs it's own separate versions of chilled/concussed/burning outside the skill itself.

I'd be very surprised if that's how it works. Skills that give guaranteed procs like Blighted Blastbones for example, don't get a second potential proc from the base skill too.

This is a set though. So clarification would be appreciated

in this particular test i was just using crushing shock and nothing else to kill that lurcher, i made him die in 3 hits. i dont lose any attacks at start of the parse.

and yes, asylum was known for a long time for applying its own additional procs on top of basic ones. i thought they might nerf it in some way due to this patch but i tested and it still works as before. btw, on one of my other tests i managed to get 13 procs from 10 casts :в

well, here's the vid for u to check that it works exactly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfemiix2vkw
(wait for 1440p to appear, just uploaded)

The more you know.

I thought AS Destro would be redundant with charged.

Guess I'm behind. Thanks.

if you're running pets you want charged. prey + the pet status procs is stronk.

I'm aware, but I didn't know Charged + Asylum Staff didn't step on eachothers toes. I just wrote off the item entirely because charged is so important for pet sorc now.

StaticWave · February 20

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:

4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:

34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

Turtle_Bot · February 20

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:

4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:

34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).

You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:

- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.

Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

StaticWave · February 20

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:

4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:

34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).
You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:
- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.
Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

He asked for PTS Hardened Ward to also have a HoT while the shield persists when the skill had just received a small burst heal buff. That would make it the most broken defensive skill in the game.

He asked for Encase’s dmg morph to be brought to Deep Fissure standards. So big delayed AoE burst damage with some form of Major debuff? We already have 3 strong offensive class skills, with 2 of them being very strong burst skills lol..We don’t need another dmg skill.

He asked for Dark Deal/Conversion cast time removed. Sure, but the heal will have to go, especially when we just got 2 burst heals on PTS.

He asked for Minor Expedition to be a passive in Lightning Form and the morphs do more damage or have unnamed buffs. I can get behind Minor Expedition being a passive, but we absolutely do not need an unnamed buff or the skill do more damage.

Out of all these suggestions, I can only agree with built in Major Savagery and Minor Expedition passive. Everything else is NOT needed, especially after the buffs we just got.

Duke_Falcon · February 20

I think all the classes should be equal in strength and ease of play. Right now it either means nerfing those classes (DK, Warden, Nightblade, Arcansit) or buffing Sorc. Buffing Sorc makes the most sense.

ZhuJiuyin · February 20

Shattering Spines may not need to meet Deep Fissure standards, but they definitely need buffs.
I think the skills closest to Shattering Spines are Abyssal Impact and Wall of Elements (ICE), because they both give partially disabling effects, and they also deal straight-line damage to the front.

Abyssal Impact is delayed by 0.3 seconds, causing
1.5303 damage (AOE)
2.healing
3.generating Crux
4.immobilized for 3 seconds
5. 5% increased damage
6. Execution (morph) or more damage (morph)

Wall of Elements(ICE) is Instant dot, causing
1.damage enemies in the target area every 1 second
2.snares
3.reduces armor chilled enemies
4.grants damage shields
5.Wider range (morph) or more damage (morph)

They total of 5or6 different effects are given. In contrast, Shattering Spines only has:
1.Cause about 5412 AOE damage (delay)
2.immobilized for 4 seconds
3.Major Maim
Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, and no damage shields or unique 5% buff.

My suggestion

1.Let to make Shattering Spines take more advantage of this patch's new status effects,always give Overcharged when it hits, and give the target another Overcharged when it causes damage.
2.Let Shattering Spines give the target an additional 10 seconds of magic damage after causing damage(The opposite of Unstable Wall of Elements, which causes direct damage first and then dot damage), making Shattering Prison worthy of being used in PVE.

RemoryAzure · February 20

lol, ive just realized that 2 months ago there was a topic here about changing shields, the topic starter pointed on a con of shields that they are unaffected by mending, and then i suggested to fix other shield cons by adding a heal into it (although my idea was to change it without buffing directly, to split total value into shield and heal depending on character's %hp). so whenever u guys will think about how convenient shield is since this patch, u know who to thank :в

Tannus15 · February 20

i'd like to see crit surge major brutality & sorcery be a passive both bar buff and the cast enables the heal and bound armaments drop the max stam and instead give it major prophecy and savagery, again both bars while slotted.

that's the 2 big changes i'd want

on my nice to haves would be tormentor activation procs concussed instead of increased damage, shift 20% of the synergy damage to tick damage in lightning splash and endless fury to be a spammable with a smaller execute damage aoe from 20%.

silentxthreat · February 20

main problem with sorc is bar space. you ether are too squish or have no damage unless maybe someone has a crazy build thats secret lol

StaticWave · February 21

silentxthreat wrote: »

main problem with sorc is bar space. you ether are too squish or have no damage unless maybe someone has a crazy build thats secret lol

Sorc has insane offensive healing and competitive damage. Next patch sorc is also getting a burst heal, so there won't be much to kill the class now

StaticWave · February 21

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

I think all the classes should be equal in strength and ease of play. Right now it either means nerfing those classes (DK, Warden, Nightblade, Arcansit) or buffing Sorc. Buffing Sorc makes the most sense.

Necro is in need of more buffing than sorc does..

MashmalloMan · February 21

@StaticWave honestly the thread has gone way past whatever OP suggested which most of us shut down on the first page as defeating the entire purpose of their proposed changes or over buffing Sorc in ways they don't need it.

Based on your comment above, it doesn't seem like you caught up and I don't expect you too.

At this point, this has just become the non-official Sorc discussion thread for this pts cycle. Most of what has been discussed as still being problematic is pve no pet sorc DPS, not PVP sorc to which we can all agree is going to improve a lot just by having healing options for once not tied to pets.

katorga · February 21

StaticWave wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

I think all the classes should be equal in strength and ease of play. Right now it either means nerfing those classes (DK, Warden, Nightblade, Arcansit) or buffing Sorc. Buffing Sorc makes the most sense.

Necro is in need of more buffing than sorc does..

Considering that I have had to mothball my Necro main, and go back to my Sorc main from release because they nerfed Necro to dust, I'm looking forward to the sorc changes.

MashmalloMan · February 23

These 2 skills are taken from Ember, the "Sorc" companion released with High Isle chapter June 6 2022.

Anyone else find it funny that ZOS realized Sorc had a healing problem when designing Ember's kit, that they attempted to fix it using Conjured Ward and Encase, to which we're now getting 21 months later (March 11 2024).

I mean either this shows a lack of creativity or a lack of speed in designing content changes? It's oddly specific that the 2 abilities she has altered are changed in the same way this patch, much, much later for actual Sorc players.

universal_wrath · February 24

MashmalloMan wrote: »

These 2 skills are taken from Ember, the "Sorc" companion released with High Isle chapter June 6 2022.

Anyone else find it funny that ZOS realized Sorc had a healing problem when designing Ember's kit, that they attempted to fix it using Conjured Ward and Encase, to which we're now getting 21 months later (March 11 2024).

I mean either this shows a lack of creativity or a lack of speed in designing content changes? It's oddly specific that the 2 abilities she has altered are changed in the same way this patch, much, much later for actual Sorc players.

Typical ZoS response type. A problem rises or players make suggestions, players post on the forum, Zos wait for 3-4 update cycles to fix the problem or do a change.

MashmalloMan · February 24

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

These 2 skills are taken from Ember, the "Sorc" companion released with High Isle chapter June 6 2022.

Anyone else find it funny that ZOS realized Sorc had a healing problem when designing Ember's kit, that they attempted to fix it using Conjured Ward and Encase, to which we're now getting 21 months later (March 11 2024).

I mean either this shows a lack of creativity or a lack of speed in designing content changes? It's oddly specific that the 2 abilities she has altered are changed in the same way this patch, much, much later for actual Sorc players.

Typical ZoS response type. A problem rises or players make suggestions, players post on the forum, Zos wait for 3-4 update cycles to fix the problem or do a change.

It hurts to see. Don't even get me started on how long it's taking them to finish hybridization. It must be about 2 years at this point?

You're telling me it takes that long to add a new mundus stone effect and just allow potions to give both brutality/sorcery or savagery/prophecy. I'm still using mag/crit pots on my stam sorc to take advantage of minor prophecy. Why? It would take them 2 minutes to slap a bandaid fix like this on to potions at the very least like they did for weapon/spell jewelry enchants while they work on a larger rework for food/pots/poisons.

But hey, at least all the changes they made hasn't really put us in the negative whatsoever. They're all positive changes, no one cared about the Mines/Encase morphs they reworked. We've only been asking them to rework these skills for 8 years, but okay.. Better late than never.

Necromancer despite already being hot dog water status got worse with their new ability with a small bump to their execute passive. They're the definition of worst case scenario.

Pelanora · February 25

Ive given up playing for a while and bought the harry potter game. Can't stop weaving light attack lol. Buggers up my rotations. The maneuvering in battle sucks, but otherwise, it's fun. Actual magic by a magic wielder. Not a bow in sight. And terrible death-vegetables. Sometimes when you throw them, the npcs yell 'are you throwing vegetables?!!'. So funny.

Duke_Falcon · February 25

I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off.

As a Sorcerer can we get this?

MashmalloMan · February 25

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

I posted this pic in a Weapons Skill line chat, but I've watched this Sorcerer in all the promotion videos since the game was launched and longed for this style of combat. When I created my very first character as a Sorcerer, I equipped a sword in one hand for up close and personal melee combat and was all ready to cast ranged spells with the other, like this Sorcerer does. Needless to say I felt like all the promotional videos had ripped me off. As a Sorcerer can we get this?

Same. With hybridization though, it's not that far off. Many of the Sorc skills when cast make you hold the 2H Sword in 1 hand. Looks pretty cool imo, but it's really just a style thing. it would be nice if they made the 30% stam regen based on highest max resource instead, but it's no big deal.

Beyond that, this doesn't really have anything specific to do with Sorc, it could be granted by just making a 1h + magic weapon skill line which would require 0 effort to replicate past motifs since you're just equipping a 1 hander + a new type of off hand item similar to shields. If it was magic like in the picture, it could simply be an item with no style, but something you pick from traits or a passive that decides the element.. or like Staves, make a few variations for different elements.

But hey, Spellcrafting is coming, many people said it could never be done, but it was an obviously high request from a majority of the community and it's finally here, 10 years later. I'd say 1H + Magic, Spears, and Unarmed are pretty high on that list as well. Maybe next year if they don't do a new class.

Duke_Falcon · February 27

@MashmalloMan Well said. I'm excited to see what the future brings

katorga · February 27

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Stamsorc will be top tier next patch. Magsorc will also be top tier next patch. In fact all iterations of Sorc will be top tier lol. 10% stam & mag + 2 burst heal buffs are all the class needed to become top tier.

This was my healing vs a Relequen Warden on the live server:

4k HPS with Rally, 23k armor, 3.3k crit resist, and 1 defensive CP (Duelist Rebuffed). Next patch I wouldn't be surprised if stamsorc becomes NB 2.0. I'd just have to drop Rally for Encase and get a spammable heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality, or I could go max mag and use Hardened Ward for 10k shield + small burst heal.

Sorc doesn't need anything else. We got the burst heals and some extra damage we asked for. There is no need to turn this class into another broken class. I remember asking for ONE of the suggestions, not all.

And in case you're wondering about my dmg, this is my stat fully buffed:

34% spell crit, 111% crit damage, 31.1k stam, almost 5.9k WD, almost 18k pen, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, and 10% dmg done from Major Berserk. Next patch add 10% max stam to 31.1k.

No one is arguing that sorc isn't going to be strong next patch. That is a given, many just doubt sorc (magsorc in particular) is going to be right at the top. It will likely be on par with DK in terms of power level, just will take more skill to use it effectively than DK requires (again, this mostly applies to magsorc).
You got to remember that you are one of the top players in the game, definitely well above average and playing the better version of the class (stam), and these changes are basically bring sorc up to par for the average player, good players such as yourself will always make the class be much stronger.
You have to remember, you have also gotten used to playing on a class that tbh has needed a lot of help in the past and this has helped you to get very good at the class/game. Much better than anyone who's meta chased and has been playing NB/DK/Arcanist/Polar Warden/procsorc/plar for their respective broken patches over the past few years, since they haven't had to be as skilled to still do as well with those classes/builds as you have had to get with non-proc stamsorc.

Good sorc mains have always (and will always) made the class look absolutely broken (see players like malcolm/adamlad who were still Xing on magsorc even when it was unplayable for basically everyone else in U36). That is not a fault of the class, that is just players being very skilled, creative and knowledgeable at the game. Put them on a NB/DK for a week and they would make those classes look S+++++ tier.

Crushing shock is going to be VERY common next patch thanks to status effect buffs, meaning dark deal will be very hard to utilize effectively as a heal. Vibrant shroud also costs nearly 5k mag (without vamp which puts it well over 5k), meaning it will be almost impossible to properly sustain it, even on magsorc with wretched. Yes the heal on ward helps with this, but that is still a crazy expensive heal to sustain.

NB is getting an absurd buff next patch (siphoning strikes), so it will still be ahead of sorc (this seems to be the conclusion from those who tested and posted in this thread) and DK is technically getting a sustain buff next patch with burning/poisoned now giving both resources back, so that will keep it in the same spot it currently is.

IMO, the tiers in PvP next patch will be:
- S+ tier
NB (why is this class still getting more PvP buffs)
Stamsorc (in the hands of a top sorc main)

- S tier (these classes will likely move around within this tier, but extremely unlikely to move out of this tier, up or down)
DK (small buffs keep it here)
Polar Warden (polar is still super OP, rest of kit is still fine)
stamsorc (in general)/good magsorcs
Arcanist (won't change, at worst drops to equal to magsorc if the nerf (fix) to fatecarver shield actually has any effect at all)
magsorc (in general)

- S-/A+ tier
Non-Polar Warden (arctic is nice and keeps it here, but not the same level as polar)
Range Plar (status buffs are big here with CS being their main spammable, may move up, especially in the hands of a good plar main that is willing to play the build)

- A-/B+ tier
Plar (non-range), (not much required, mostly to PotL/PL)

- C tier
DoT-Cro (maybe?) (I have heard some potential for this build, but that could just be cros coping, I haven't tested this out myself to confirm either way)

- Don't Bother (RIP)
Necro (RIP) (o7 for Necro, hope they get real fixes soon, not whatever ZOS is trying this patch).

Magsorc will still be behind stamsorc, it just doesn't have access to sets with the same power level that stamsorc has, especially if it wants to build into its shields and without shields, it really is just an inferior stamsorc.

As for fixing sorc in PvP, it's fairly simple and only really requires 1 change.
Change max stats on Bound Armor/morphs while on either bar to major prophecy/savagery while on either bar.
This heavily reduces the potential to stack as much max stats while keeping crit surge as a viable HoT. It does this via multiple ways.
Magsorc:
- Inner light no longer required = -5% (+ another -2% from MG passives) max mag for 7% less max mag total.
- Bound Aegis no longer gives max stats, meaning another -8% max mag here.
This is a total of -15% max mag for mag stacking, which is a lot of mag (64k basically caps at 55k and 50k caps at 42k). This is also a 15% reduction in ward size and 15% reduction on the heal from ward too. It's quite a big hit to magsorc despite looking like a potential buff to crit surge. This also removes minor protection and minor resolve from magsorc (unless it runs vigor + temporal guard).
Stamsorc:
- Bound Armor loses 8% max stam. (31700 on your build compared to current 31100 instead of a possible 34000 max stam).
- no need for camo hunter (minor berserk no longer permanent on front bar = more frequent DD use to keep this buff up = shorter offense windows)
This is -8% max stam and potential -5% damage done. This also basically removes ward as an option for stamsorc since they won't be able to get the amount of max mag required to make it worth running, meaning stamsorc is stuck with DD, rally and vigor since ward won't be strong enough and encase will be too expensive when combined with streaks ramping cost.

Where sorc still needs further help is for no-pet in PvE. Lightning Splash needs much more than the simple radius increase it got. Lots of ideas in other threads on this so won't go further here. Lightning Splash is also a PvE ability (ground based DoT), so buffing this ability won't have any effect on PvP side unless it's something stupid.

@Turtle_Bot

The suggestions OP made are ridiculous though and I’m sure you know it too. He’s basing the suggestions off what NB got, which is just ridiculous because NB is OP and wanting Sorc to be similar to NB is like wanting a NB 2.0

NB is The Baseline.

The Dev who keeps buffing them has stuffed in so many top tier capabilities that it will take years to nerf NB down to the level of other classes.

So any attempt at balancing means bringing the other classes up to par with NB.