Sorcerer Changes - Good(ish) but More is Needed

MashmalloMan · February 4

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

Your first mistake is comparing this skill to other class burst/delayed burst skills. We already have ample damage opportunities with Curse/Fury/Frags/BA. This skill is in the utility category.

Could it be used for delayed burst? Sure, but any argument to buff its damage to match those skills is never going to happen because that isn't what the skill is meant for.

Galeriano · February 4

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Many people is talking about Vibrant Shroud (the new healing morph of encase) but seem to be missing the potential that changes to other morph, Shattering Spines are bringing. This ability was changed to be always a 4 seconds delay dmg explosion and it recived a dmg buff giving it a tooltip around 5% higher than AoEs like whirling blades.

That means it can potentially be combined with haunting curse explosion to increase sorc's burst potential. Those who remember good old days of DW or 2h one shot magsorcs with inevitable detonation on bar should know what I am talking about. In theory You should be able to basically combine vibrant shround, curse, crystal frag and endless fury explosion into one combo that explodes basically at the same time when target is being stunned by a streak. You can either add overload light attacks or ice comet to the combo. Theoretically with changes to shields You should have both enough bar space and survivability to make that setup possible.

I feel like this comparison fails to truly compare Shattering Spines to other AOE abilities.
First of all, according to the old data (Shattering Prison) it can deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and other similar AOE skills.
For example:
lemental Ring [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], which has a variety of effects and includes execution effects (Fire Ring hits Burning enemies with Ring Afterburn, which deals more damage based on their missing Health).
Whirling Blades also have an execution effect: ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] . Deals up to 100% more damage to enemies with less than 50% Health).
The same is true for Shrouded Daggers. Although it does not include execution, it has a variety of effects without any delay ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], and If enemies hit are casting they are interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 3 seconds. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds.)

Additionally, in addition to the delay, Shattering Spines is an area of effect damage, so the target only needs to leave that area.

So instead, Shattering Spines still needs to be slightly buffed, otherwise it will still appear weak compared to other similar abilities.
I've done a comparison of Shattering Spines before (CTRL+C & CTRL+V):
Shattering Prison (Old) deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and according to U41's instructions, it will increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 10%, which is 4920*1.1=5412.
In comparison, Wardens' Scorch can cause [6641 / 6714 / 6787 / 6860] AOE magic damage (3 seconds delay) + [9223 / 9324 / 9426 / 9527] magic damage (6 seconds delay). Morphs even grant Major and Minor Breach .
Blighted Blastbones(old) (2.5 seconds delay) can cause [9529 / 9633 / 9737 / 9842] Disease Damage and give Major Defile.

Even compared with Cephaliarch's Flail, Cephaliarch's Flail is delayed by 0.3 seconds, causing
1.5303 damage (AOE)
2.healing
3.generating Crux
4.immobilized for 3 seconds
5. 5% increased damage
6. Execution (morph) or more damage (morph)
A total of 6 different effects are given. In contrast, Shattering Spines only has
1.Cause about 5412 AOE damage (delay)
2.immobilized for 4 seconds
3.Major Maim
Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

I recommend:
1. Let Shattering Spines always give Overcharged(or Concussed) when it hits, and give the target another Overcharged(or Concussed) when it causes damage.
2. Or let Shattering Spines give the target an additional 10 seconds of magic damage after causing damage, making Shattering Prison worthy of being used in PVE.
3. Or gives [140 / 160 / 180 / 200] points of Weapon and Spell Damage after casting (similar to the 5% unique buff provided by Cephaliarch's Flail)
4. Or directly increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 40% (4920*1.4=6888), which is slightly higher than the [6574 / 6646 / 6718 / 6791] damage of Crystal Fragments. Considering that Shattering Spines is a delayed skill, And easy to dodge, it should be compensated for more damage. It needs to deal at least the same damage as Curse.

Comparision was just a reference point to show where the damage of the new ability is to better illustrate its burst potential when combined into a combo. Yes other AoEs have additional effects but they have completly different uses, they can't be used in PvP as elem,ents of combo in the same way shattering spines will be. As for the additional effects itself keep in mind that shattering spines also applies major main and immobilizes enemies and 10 seconds major maim is a really big thing.

As for target leaving the area it's really not important. Not only sorc can just reposition himself to make enemy once again in the area of the ability, he will have to do it anyway since streak is part of whole combo. Ability itself synergizes well with streak since it covers 18x6 meters area in front of You and it applies a sticky dmg explosion debuff instantl so it enemy is in the ability's area when You cast it the explosion will be guaranteed to happen after 4 seconds.

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

acastanza_ESO · February 4

Galeriano wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Many people is talking about Vibrant Shroud (the new healing morph of encase) but seem to be missing the potential that changes to other morph, Shattering Spines are bringing. This ability was changed to be always a 4 seconds delay dmg explosion and it recived a dmg buff giving it a tooltip around 5% higher than AoEs like whirling blades.

That means it can potentially be combined with haunting curse explosion to increase sorc's burst potential. Those who remember good old days of DW or 2h one shot magsorcs with inevitable detonation on bar should know what I am talking about. In theory You should be able to basically combine vibrant shround, curse, crystal frag and endless fury explosion into one combo that explodes basically at the same time when target is being stunned by a streak. You can either add overload light attacks or ice comet to the combo. Theoretically with changes to shields You should have both enough bar space and survivability to make that setup possible.

I feel like this comparison fails to truly compare Shattering Spines to other AOE abilities.
First of all, according to the old data (Shattering Prison) it can deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and other similar AOE skills.
For example:
lemental Ring [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], which has a variety of effects and includes execution effects (Fire Ring hits Burning enemies with Ring Afterburn, which deals more damage based on their missing Health).
Whirling Blades also have an execution effect: ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] . Deals up to 100% more damage to enemies with less than 50% Health).
The same is true for Shrouded Daggers. Although it does not include execution, it has a variety of effects without any delay ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], and If enemies hit are casting they are interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 3 seconds. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds.)

Additionally, in addition to the delay, Shattering Spines is an area of effect damage, so the target only needs to leave that area.

So instead, Shattering Spines still needs to be slightly buffed, otherwise it will still appear weak compared to other similar abilities.
I've done a comparison of Shattering Spines before (CTRL+C & CTRL+V):
Shattering Prison (Old) deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and according to U41's instructions, it will increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 10%, which is 4920*1.1=5412.
In comparison, Wardens' Scorch can cause [6641 / 6714 / 6787 / 6860] AOE magic damage (3 seconds delay) + [9223 / 9324 / 9426 / 9527] magic damage (6 seconds delay). Morphs even grant Major and Minor Breach .
Blighted Blastbones(old) (2.5 seconds delay) can cause [9529 / 9633 / 9737 / 9842] Disease Damage and give Major Defile.

Even compared with Cephaliarch's Flail, Cephaliarch's Flail is delayed by 0.3 seconds, causing
1.5303 damage (AOE)
2.healing
3.generating Crux
4.immobilized for 3 seconds
5. 5% increased damage
6. Execution (morph) or more damage (morph)
A total of 6 different effects are given. In contrast, Shattering Spines only has
1.Cause about 5412 AOE damage (delay)
2.immobilized for 4 seconds
3.Major Maim
Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

I recommend:
1. Let Shattering Spines always give Overcharged(or Concussed) when it hits, and give the target another Overcharged(or Concussed) when it causes damage.
2. Or let Shattering Spines give the target an additional 10 seconds of magic damage after causing damage, making Shattering Prison worthy of being used in PVE.
3. Or gives [140 / 160 / 180 / 200] points of Weapon and Spell Damage after casting (similar to the 5% unique buff provided by Cephaliarch's Flail)
4. Or directly increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 40% (4920*1.4=6888), which is slightly higher than the [6574 / 6646 / 6718 / 6791] damage of Crystal Fragments. Considering that Shattering Spines is a delayed skill, And easy to dodge, it should be compensated for more damage. It needs to deal at least the same damage as Curse.

Comparision was just a reference point to show where the damage of the new ability is to better illustrate its burst potential when combined into a combo. Yes other AoEs have additional effects but they have completly different uses, they can't be used in PvP as elem,ents of combo in the same way shattering spines will be. As for the additional effects itself keep in mind that shattering spines also applies major main and immobilizes enemies and 10 seconds major maim is a really big thing.

As for target leaving the area it's really not important. Not only sorc can just reposition himself to make enemy once again in the area of the ability, he will have to do it anyway since streak is part of whole combo. Ability itself synergizes well with streak since it covers 18x6 meters area in front of You and it applies a sticky dmg explosion debuff instantl so it enemy is in the ability's area when You cast it the explosion will be guaranteed to happen after 4 seconds.

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

I'm just curious how many barslots y'all think sorc has anyway.

You listed:
Crystal Frags, Endless Fury, Streak
Shattering Spines, Haunting Curse

Not included; a spammable (Lets say Crushing Weapon), An Armor Buff (Hurricane, but could be replaced with Chuldan I suppose), Damage Buff (Crit Surge), a HOT (Vigor), Dark Exchange to manage resources and for the buffs. That's a full bar and doesn't include a damage shield (one of the main buffs this patch), or a crit buff. If you drop Hurricane for Chuldan you can fit one of those in, but still don't have room for the other, or for something like camo hunter. The math doesn't math on Sorc's barspace and actually being able to take advantage of the buffs this patch.

ZhuJiuyin · February 5

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

Your first mistake is comparing this skill to other class burst/delayed burst skills. We already have ample damage opportunities with Curse/Fury/Frags/BA. This skill is in the utility category.

Could it be used for delayed burst? Sure, but any argument to buff its damage to match those skills is never going to happen because that isn't what the skill is meant for.

Even compared to other Partially Disabling Effects skills, the benefits of Shattering Spines are significantly lower.
Eruption: ummon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location for 15 seconds, dealing [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Flame Damage immediately, reducing enemy Movement Speed by 70%, and dealing [846 / 855 / 864 / 874] Flame Damage in the area every 1 second. The eruptive damage can occur once every 10 seconds.

1.deal 4920+[874*15] damage (better than Shattering Spines)
2. Damage without any delay (better than Shattering Spines)
3.educing enemy Movement Speed by 70% (tied with the immobilize effect of Shattering Spines)
4.Range 22m (better than Shattering Spines of 18m)
5. The new Shattering Spines have one more Major Maim debuff (better than Eruption)

Total 3 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss (Eruption won)

Crippling Grasp: Sap an enemy's agility and wrack them with pain, dealing [3176 / 3211 / 3245 / 3280] Magic Damage and an additional [11536 / 11648 / 11778 / 11914] Magic Damage over 20 seconds, immobilizing them for 2 seconds, and reducing their Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

1.deal 3280+11914 damage (better than Shattering Spines)
2. Damage without any delay (better than Shattering Spines)
3.immobilizing (tied with the immobilize effect of Shattering Spines)
4.Range 28m (better than Shattering Spines of 18m)
5. reducing their Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. (Incomparable to the Major Maim debuff of the new Shattering Spines, let’s call it a tie)
6.Shattering Spines is AOE (win)

Total 3 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss (Crippling Grasp won)

The changes to Shattering Spines are appreciated, but they could be better. Because even compared to other Partially Disabling Effects skills, Shattering Spines is clearly lacking in damage, and is slightly inferior to other similar skills in other aspects (distance, delay, number of effects *compared to Abyssal Impact)

Galeriano · February 5

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Many people is talking about Vibrant Shroud (the new healing morph of encase) but seem to be missing the potential that changes to other morph, Shattering Spines are bringing. This ability was changed to be always a 4 seconds delay dmg explosion and it recived a dmg buff giving it a tooltip around 5% higher than AoEs like whirling blades.

That means it can potentially be combined with haunting curse explosion to increase sorc's burst potential. Those who remember good old days of DW or 2h one shot magsorcs with inevitable detonation on bar should know what I am talking about. In theory You should be able to basically combine vibrant shround, curse, crystal frag and endless fury explosion into one combo that explodes basically at the same time when target is being stunned by a streak. You can either add overload light attacks or ice comet to the combo. Theoretically with changes to shields You should have both enough bar space and survivability to make that setup possible.

I feel like this comparison fails to truly compare Shattering Spines to other AOE abilities.
First of all, according to the old data (Shattering Prison) it can deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and other similar AOE skills.
For example:
lemental Ring [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], which has a variety of effects and includes execution effects (Fire Ring hits Burning enemies with Ring Afterburn, which deals more damage based on their missing Health).
Whirling Blades also have an execution effect: ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] . Deals up to 100% more damage to enemies with less than 50% Health).
The same is true for Shrouded Daggers. Although it does not include execution, it has a variety of effects without any delay ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], and If enemies hit are casting they are interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 3 seconds. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds.)

Additionally, in addition to the delay, Shattering Spines is an area of effect damage, so the target only needs to leave that area.

So instead, Shattering Spines still needs to be slightly buffed, otherwise it will still appear weak compared to other similar abilities.
I've done a comparison of Shattering Spines before (CTRL+C & CTRL+V):
Shattering Prison (Old) deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and according to U41's instructions, it will increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 10%, which is 4920*1.1=5412.
In comparison, Wardens' Scorch can cause [6641 / 6714 / 6787 / 6860] AOE magic damage (3 seconds delay) + [9223 / 9324 / 9426 / 9527] magic damage (6 seconds delay). Morphs even grant Major and Minor Breach .
Blighted Blastbones(old) (2.5 seconds delay) can cause [9529 / 9633 / 9737 / 9842] Disease Damage and give Major Defile.

Even compared with Cephaliarch's Flail, Cephaliarch's Flail is delayed by 0.3 seconds, causing
1.5303 damage (AOE)
2.healing
3.generating Crux
4.immobilized for 3 seconds
5. 5% increased damage
6. Execution (morph) or more damage (morph)
A total of 6 different effects are given. In contrast, Shattering Spines only has
1.Cause about 5412 AOE damage (delay)
2.immobilized for 4 seconds
3.Major Maim
Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

I recommend:
1. Let Shattering Spines always give Overcharged(or Concussed) when it hits, and give the target another Overcharged(or Concussed) when it causes damage.
2. Or let Shattering Spines give the target an additional 10 seconds of magic damage after causing damage, making Shattering Prison worthy of being used in PVE.
3. Or gives [140 / 160 / 180 / 200] points of Weapon and Spell Damage after casting (similar to the 5% unique buff provided by Cephaliarch's Flail)
4. Or directly increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 40% (4920*1.4=6888), which is slightly higher than the [6574 / 6646 / 6718 / 6791] damage of Crystal Fragments. Considering that Shattering Spines is a delayed skill, And easy to dodge, it should be compensated for more damage. It needs to deal at least the same damage as Curse.

Comparision was just a reference point to show where the damage of the new ability is to better illustrate its burst potential when combined into a combo. Yes other AoEs have additional effects but they have completly different uses, they can't be used in PvP as elem,ents of combo in the same way shattering spines will be. As for the additional effects itself keep in mind that shattering spines also applies major main and immobilizes enemies and 10 seconds major maim is a really big thing.

As for target leaving the area it's really not important. Not only sorc can just reposition himself to make enemy once again in the area of the ability, he will have to do it anyway since streak is part of whole combo. Ability itself synergizes well with streak since it covers 18x6 meters area in front of You and it applies a sticky dmg explosion debuff instantl so it enemy is in the ability's area when You cast it the explosion will be guaranteed to happen after 4 seconds.

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

I'm just curious how many barslots y'all think sorc has anyway.

You listed:
Crystal Frags, Endless Fury, Streak
Shattering Spines, Haunting Curse

Not included; a spammable (Lets say Crushing Weapon), An Armor Buff (Hurricane, but could be replaced with Chuldan I suppose), Damage Buff (Crit Surge), a HOT (Vigor), Dark Exchange to manage resources and for the buffs. That's a full bar and doesn't include a damage shield (one of the main buffs this patch), or a crit buff. If you drop Hurricane for Chuldan you can fit one of those in, but still don't have room for the other, or for something like camo hunter. The math doesn't math on Sorc's barspace and actually being able to take advantage of the buffs this patch.

This is a setup without regular spamable ability. Ideally You also don;t need use a staff on front bar but a dual wield to maximize offensive stats. It's all about blasting enemy away by taking his whole HP down in a second with a perfectly executed combo of abilities. It was a thing years ago when magicka detonation was added to the game. Base dmg of this ability was actually nerfed due to that particular sorc setup blasting people away. That nerf caused sorc to loose bit of dmg he needed to bring enemy down to 20% for endless fury to proc and shattering spines have a chance to bring that missing dmg back to the combo.

As for vigor like I mentioned You can change it to bound aegis which provides You with minor resolve that vigor is also giving and You no longer need healing from vigor that much after building for max mag and having 16k shield with a heal underneath. Bound aegis will also provide You with minor protection on both bars bar contrary to temporal guard which was only giving it to You on a back bar where it was slotted. 10 sec major maim from shattering spines will also increase Your defense so like I said vigor will not technically be not that needed anymore.

Armor buff is covered by chudan, You still have slot for dark exzchange and crit surge. Theoretical ability bar setup will go as follows :

Front - endless fury, crystal frag, hardened ward, streak, inner light, ulti ice comet
Back - shattering spines, haunting curse, critical surge, dark exchange, bound aegis, ulti overload

It's definietly not a classic cookie cutter setup that everyone follows. While it's usefulness solo remains to be seen it will be definietly worth trying in small scale where other allies will be able to emp up the combo even more with their buffs and debuffs and they will be also able to provide safety for those 4 seconds needed to prepare combo allowing for it to land more consistantly.

Galeriano · February 5

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

Your first mistake is comparing this skill to other class burst/delayed burst skills. We already have ample damage opportunities with Curse/Fury/Frags/BA. This skill is in the utility category.

Could it be used for delayed burst? Sure, but any argument to buff its damage to match those skills is never going to happen because that isn't what the skill is meant for.

Even compared to other Partially Disabling Effects skills, the benefits of Shattering Spines are significantly lower.
Eruption: ummon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location for 15 seconds, dealing [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Flame Damage immediately, reducing enemy Movement Speed by 70%, and dealing [846 / 855 / 864 / 874] Flame Damage in the area every 1 second. The eruptive damage can occur once every 10 seconds.

1.deal 4920+[874*15] damage (better than Shattering Spines)
2. Damage without any delay (better than Shattering Spines)
3.educing enemy Movement Speed by 70% (tied with the immobilize effect of Shattering Spines)
4.Range 22m (better than Shattering Spines of 18m)
5. The new Shattering Spines have one more Major Maim debuff (better than Eruption)

Total 3 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss (Eruption won)

Crippling Grasp: Sap an enemy's agility and wrack them with pain, dealing [3176 / 3211 / 3245 / 3280] Magic Damage and an additional [11536 / 11648 / 11778 / 11914] Magic Damage over 20 seconds, immobilizing them for 2 seconds, and reducing their Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

1.deal 3280+11914 damage (better than Shattering Spines)
2. Damage without any delay (better than Shattering Spines)
3.immobilizing (tied with the immobilize effect of Shattering Spines)
4.Range 28m (better than Shattering Spines of 18m)
5. reducing their Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds. (Incomparable to the Major Maim debuff of the new Shattering Spines, let’s call it a tie)
6.Shattering Spines is AOE (win)

Total 3 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss (Crippling Grasp won)

The changes to Shattering Spines are appreciated, but they could be better. Because even compared to other Partially Disabling Effects skills, Shattering Spines is clearly lacking in damage, and is slightly inferior to other similar skills in other aspects (distance, delay, number of effects *compared to Abyssal Impact)

You compare AoE DoTs to an AoE direct dmg.

Sorc's equavalent of eruption and crippling shards is liquid lightning. They are all gound based AoE DoT. It will be getting buff next patch and both morphs will have their radius increased by 2 meters. It's still kinda mediocre but if You're looking for eruption and crippling shards counterpart that is liquid lightning not shattering spines.

Shattering spines dmg belong to completly different damage category. Delayed dmg can be also a benefit when used properly. If You want a ground AoE DoT with snare similar to uruption or crippling shards You can just slot caltrops. 10 seconds of AoE major maim on shattering spines is easily beating secondary effects of both eruption and crippling shards. There is plenty of snares and immobilizes in the game but It will be the first time for major maim to be applied that easily and reliably from a regular ability.

Turtle_Bot · February 5

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Many people is talking about Vibrant Shroud (the new healing morph of encase) but seem to be missing the potential that changes to other morph, Shattering Spines are bringing. This ability was changed to be always a 4 seconds delay dmg explosion and it recived a dmg buff giving it a tooltip around 5% higher than AoEs like whirling blades.

That means it can potentially be combined with haunting curse explosion to increase sorc's burst potential. Those who remember good old days of DW or 2h one shot magsorcs with inevitable detonation on bar should know what I am talking about. In theory You should be able to basically combine vibrant shround, curse, crystal frag and endless fury explosion into one combo that explodes basically at the same time when target is being stunned by a streak. You can either add overload light attacks or ice comet to the combo. Theoretically with changes to shields You should have both enough bar space and survivability to make that setup possible.

I feel like this comparison fails to truly compare Shattering Spines to other AOE abilities.
First of all, according to the old data (Shattering Prison) it can deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and other similar AOE skills.
For example:
lemental Ring [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], which has a variety of effects and includes execution effects (Fire Ring hits Burning enemies with Ring Afterburn, which deals more damage based on their missing Health).
Whirling Blades also have an execution effect: ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] . Deals up to 100% more damage to enemies with less than 50% Health).
The same is true for Shrouded Daggers. Although it does not include execution, it has a variety of effects without any delay ([4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920], and If enemies hit are casting they are interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 3 seconds. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds.)

Additionally, in addition to the delay, Shattering Spines is an area of effect damage, so the target only needs to leave that area.

So instead, Shattering Spines still needs to be slightly buffed, otherwise it will still appear weak compared to other similar abilities.
I've done a comparison of Shattering Spines before (CTRL+C & CTRL+V):
Shattering Prison (Old) deal [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4920] Magic Damage, and according to U41's instructions, it will increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 10%, which is 4920*1.1=5412.
In comparison, Wardens' Scorch can cause [6641 / 6714 / 6787 / 6860] AOE magic damage (3 seconds delay) + [9223 / 9324 / 9426 / 9527] magic damage (6 seconds delay). Morphs even grant Major and Minor Breach .
Blighted Blastbones(old) (2.5 seconds delay) can cause [9529 / 9633 / 9737 / 9842] Disease Damage and give Major Defile.

Even compared with Cephaliarch's Flail, Cephaliarch's Flail is delayed by 0.3 seconds, causing
1.5303 damage (AOE)
2.healing
3.generating Crux
4.immobilized for 3 seconds
5. 5% increased damage
6. Execution (morph) or more damage (morph)
A total of 6 different effects are given. In contrast, Shattering Spines only has
1.Cause about 5412 AOE damage (delay)
2.immobilized for 4 seconds
3.Major Maim
Shattering Spines only has 3 effects, which is obviously completely lost to Scorch, Blighted Blastbones (in terms of damage), and Cephaliarch's Flail (in terms of number of effects)

I recommend:
1. Let Shattering Spines always give Overcharged(or Concussed) when it hits, and give the target another Overcharged(or Concussed) when it causes damage.
2. Or let Shattering Spines give the target an additional 10 seconds of magic damage after causing damage, making Shattering Prison worthy of being used in PVE.
3. Or gives [140 / 160 / 180 / 200] points of Weapon and Spell Damage after casting (similar to the 5% unique buff provided by Cephaliarch's Flail)
4. Or directly increase the damage of Shattering Spines by 40% (4920*1.4=6888), which is slightly higher than the [6574 / 6646 / 6718 / 6791] damage of Crystal Fragments. Considering that Shattering Spines is a delayed skill, And easy to dodge, it should be compensated for more damage. It needs to deal at least the same damage as Curse.

Comparision was just a reference point to show where the damage of the new ability is to better illustrate its burst potential when combined into a combo. Yes other AoEs have additional effects but they have completly different uses, they can't be used in PvP as elem,ents of combo in the same way shattering spines will be. As for the additional effects itself keep in mind that shattering spines also applies major main and immobilizes enemies and 10 seconds major maim is a really big thing.

As for target leaving the area it's really not important. Not only sorc can just reposition himself to make enemy once again in the area of the ability, he will have to do it anyway since streak is part of whole combo. Ability itself synergizes well with streak since it covers 18x6 meters area in front of You and it applies a sticky dmg explosion debuff instantl so it enemy is in the ability's area when You cast it the explosion will be guaranteed to happen after 4 seconds.

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

I'm just curious how many barslots y'all think sorc has anyway.

You listed:
Crystal Frags, Endless Fury, Streak
Shattering Spines, Haunting Curse

Not included; a spammable (Lets say Crushing Weapon), An Armor Buff (Hurricane, but could be replaced with Chuldan I suppose), Damage Buff (Crit Surge), a HOT (Vigor), Dark Exchange to manage resources and for the buffs. That's a full bar and doesn't include a damage shield (one of the main buffs this patch), or a crit buff. If you drop Hurricane for Chuldan you can fit one of those in, but still don't have room for the other, or for something like camo hunter. The math doesn't math on Sorc's barspace and actually being able to take advantage of the buffs this patch.

This is a setup without regular spamable ability. Ideally You also don;t need use a staff on front bar but a dual wield to maximize offensive stats. It's all about blasting enemy away by taking his whole HP down in a second with a perfectly executed combo of abilities. It was a thing years ago when magicka detonation was added to the game. Base dmg of this ability was actually nerfed due to that particular sorc setup blasting people away. That nerf caused sorc to loose bit of dmg he needed to bring enemy down to 20% for endless fury to proc and shattering spines have a chance to bring that missing dmg back to the combo.

As for vigor like I mentioned You can change it to bound aegis which provides You with minor resolve that vigor is also giving and You no longer need healing from vigor that much after building for max mag and having 16k shield with a heal underneath. Bound aegis will also provide You with minor protection on both bars bar contrary to temporal guard which was only giving it to You on a back bar where it was slotted. 10 sec major maim from shattering spines will also increase Your defense so like I said vigor will not technically be not that needed anymore.

Armor buff is covered by chudan, You still have slot for dark exzchange and crit surge. Theoretical ability bar setup will go as follows :

Front - endless fury, crystal frag, hardened ward, streak, inner light, ulti ice comet
Back - shattering spines, haunting curse, critical surge, dark exchange, bound aegis, ulti overload

It's definietly not a classic cookie cutter setup that everyone follows. While it's usefulness solo remains to be seen it will be definietly worth trying in small scale where other allies will be able to emp up the combo even more with their buffs and debuffs and they will be also able to provide safety for those 4 seconds needed to prepare combo allowing for it to land more consistantly.

This sounds like the combo I theorized for Soul Assault (tooltipped for like 220k).

It's theoretically absurd levels of damage that should not be possible, but due to being so hard to actually put into practice and line up it's not worth running, even with full group support behind it.

This one seems like it will be slightly easier to use, but will have a significantly lower damage output (~40% lower than 1 single tick of my theoretical SA and takes 4 seconds to line everything up and only deals its damage once while SA had multiple ticks and had that same higher damage for its entire duration).

Oh and I tested Bow ult on my same theoretical build, it's tooltip was even higher than soul assault once the DoT was factored in, like 300k + total damage from 1 cast.

P.s. Oh, and fun fact, this was on a necro of all classes too.

Edit: for those who say it is only theory, I made this build on the live servers back when I crafted it (I just wanted to try and see big numbers and if I could make it actually work in practice). I still had SA tooltip for about 100k+ fairly reliably while solo and 130-140k while sneaking some buff from groups I was near.

Definitely not the theoretical cap of the build, but still a crazy tooltip considering most glass cannon builds tend to cap bow ult (which is stronger) at around 70-80k.

Jsmalls · February 5

Galeriano wrote: »

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

Galeriano wrote: »

This is a setup without regular spamable ability. Ideally You also don;t need use a staff on front bar but a dual wield to maximize offensive stats. It's all about blasting enemy away by taking his whole HP down in a second with a perfectly executed combo of abilities. It was a thing years ago when magicka detonation was added to the game. Base dmg of this ability was actually nerfed due to that particular sorc setup blasting people away. That nerf caused sorc to loose bit of dmg he needed to bring enemy down to 20% for endless fury to proc and shattering spines have a chance to bring that missing dmg back to the combo.

As for vigor like I mentioned You can change it to bound aegis which provides You with minor resolve that vigor is also giving and You no longer need healing from vigor that much after building for max mag and having 16k shield with a heal underneath. Bound aegis will also provide You with minor protection on both bars bar contrary to temporal guard which was only giving it to You on a back bar where it was slotted. 10 sec major maim from shattering spines will also increase Your defense so like I said vigor will not technically be not that needed anymore.

Armor buff is covered by chudan, You still have slot for dark exzchange and crit surge. Theoretical ability bar setup will go as follows :

Front - endless fury, crystal frag, hardened ward, streak, inner light, ulti ice comet
Back - shattering spines, haunting curse, critical surge, dark exchange, bound aegis, ulti overload

It's definietly not a classic cookie cutter setup that everyone follows. While it's usefulness solo remains to be seen it will be definietly worth trying in small scale where other allies will be able to emp up the combo even more with their buffs and debuffs and they will be also able to provide safety for those 4 seconds needed to prepare combo allowing for it to land more consistantly.

This can already be done with Elemental Weapon instead of Shattering Spines, which has a higher tooltip.

But good luck getting all of that squeezed in a 4 second window for mages wrath.

Activate overload, Curse, into mages wrath, into elemental weapon (skipping the previous light attack to hold to hit with frag), into frag, then dawnbreaker.

I do it without mages wrath for tankier players on live (can't find room on my bar for mages wrath). It's a theoretical ~75k tooltip (14k curse, 10k overload, 10k elemental, 21k frag, 21k dawnbreaker) in ~one gcd.

Galeriano · February 6

Jsmalls wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I am talking purely from PvP perspective here and what I imagine is a combo that will go as follows :

1. You proc crystal frag on Your fron bat and You swap
2. You cast LA(proc wep dmg enchantment)+shattering spines+LA+haunting curse from the back bar and swap
3. You cast endless fury on front bar
4. You can either cast something else or just make short pause like 0,5 sec to make combo timing almost perfect
5. You do LA+streak
6. You turn Your camera quickly by 180 degrees and cast LA+frag that You procced earlier

Combo like this will result with enemy taking dmg from shattering spines, haunting curse, 2xLA (You can use overload LA), 2xdmg enchantments with possible status effects, streak, optional Ice comet, crystal frag, and if he goes down under 20% HP also endless fury execution proc all in around 1,2-1,5 second while he is also being stunned with streak. It's 9 up to 12 hits within that short time period where 4-6 of these hits are hard hitting abilities.

Changes to shields and shattering spines open that option for sorc because of two main reasons. One is the fact that due to getting a heal on shield sorc will be able to drop vigor and change it to bound aegis which provides him with minor resolve that vigor was giving but also 8% more mag meaning more dmg and minor protection on both bars which means temporal guard ulti is not longer needed to have that buff which frees up ulti slot so You can slot either dawnbreaker or meteor on front bar for even more passive dmg increase and optionall burst. Other thing is simply a fact that adding that bit of dmg from shattering prison gives sorc that slight dmg buff he was very often missing to drop enemies below 20% HP where endless fury explosion would proc. It's all theory and we willl see how it will go but as it is right now it looks really promising and opens up an option for sorc to be really dangerous nuke cannon especially in group play. Additional advantage that stattering spines is giving is the immobilize which will usually cause enemy to dodge but next ability in a combo is is curse which is undodgable so it does not mess up the combo but drains enemy a bit from stamina when he will be getting stunned with streak soon after so it increases the chances he may be low on stam.

Galeriano wrote: »

This is a setup without regular spamable ability. Ideally You also don;t need use a staff on front bar but a dual wield to maximize offensive stats. It's all about blasting enemy away by taking his whole HP down in a second with a perfectly executed combo of abilities. It was a thing years ago when magicka detonation was added to the game. Base dmg of this ability was actually nerfed due to that particular sorc setup blasting people away. That nerf caused sorc to loose bit of dmg he needed to bring enemy down to 20% for endless fury to proc and shattering spines have a chance to bring that missing dmg back to the combo.

As for vigor like I mentioned You can change it to bound aegis which provides You with minor resolve that vigor is also giving and You no longer need healing from vigor that much after building for max mag and having 16k shield with a heal underneath. Bound aegis will also provide You with minor protection on both bars bar contrary to temporal guard which was only giving it to You on a back bar where it was slotted. 10 sec major maim from shattering spines will also increase Your defense so like I said vigor will not technically be not that needed anymore.

Armor buff is covered by chudan, You still have slot for dark exzchange and crit surge. Theoretical ability bar setup will go as follows :

Front - endless fury, crystal frag, hardened ward, streak, inner light, ulti ice comet
Back - shattering spines, haunting curse, critical surge, dark exchange, bound aegis, ulti overload

It's definietly not a classic cookie cutter setup that everyone follows. While it's usefulness solo remains to be seen it will be definietly worth trying in small scale where other allies will be able to emp up the combo even more with their buffs and debuffs and they will be also able to provide safety for those 4 seconds needed to prepare combo allowing for it to land more consistantly.

This can already be done with Elemental Weapon instead of Shattering Spines, which has a higher tooltip.

But good luck getting all of that squeezed in a 4 second window for mages wrath.

Activate overload, Curse, into mages wrath, into elemental weapon (skipping the previous light attack to hold to hit with frag), into frag, then dawnbreaker.

I do it without mages wrath for tankier players on live (can't find room on my bar for mages wrath). It's a theoretical ~75k tooltip (14k curse, 10k overload, 10k elemental, 21k frag, 21k dawnbreaker) in ~one gcd.

No it cannot be done with elemental weapon. 4 seconds delay on shattering spines vs 2 seconds delay on ele weapon. You loose few things like the ability to use 1 additional light attack before the streak to deal more dmg and potentially proc enchant and status effect from DW since it's dual wield setup. Overal ele weapon combo presented by You does less dmg, is more avoidable since You don't add streak to it and kinda spreaded out in time since dawnbreaker have additional cast time after GCD for frag ends so it gives enemy more time to react.

Squeezing endless fury proc in not an issue. After endless fury You just cast 2 other abilities so it still have time spared on the debuff timer. You could even cast 1 more ability to increase overall dmg for the cost lowering the peak burst moment and stretching it out a bit and endless fury would still be there to proc.

If You are giving up on streak I could also give up on it, slot ele weapon instead of inner light, pop up crit chance potion and add ele weapon to the combo while still getting all the other previously mentioned combo components doing the same. Shattering spines is just additional delayed burst ability in sorc kit that does not interfere with currently existing timings.

I already tested that combo on PTS. With massive ping and desync due to me being from EU server I was still able to compile dmg from shatteting spines, haunting curse, 2x overload LA, streak, crystal frag and endles fury explosion within around 1,4 sec. With tooltips I got on PTS it is a theoretical 94k tooltip without endless fury, 114k with endles fury proc and contrary to Your combo it have a streak in it and it costs way less ultimate to perform.

Jsmalls · February 6

@Galeriano

First I can confirm but from my testing Shattering Spine deals damage at the end (or if immune immediately) of the immobilize despite what the notes say (a bit ambiguous). So if they roll it immediately deals damage.

Past that though.

Elemental Weapon deals more damage than Shattering Spine. So by adding that timed ability into the mix instead it already deals more damage than your stated combo as they both use the same number of abilities.

Additionally you're spreading yours out over two gcds versus my one (hence you adding 2 LAs into your calculation).

You mention a gcd between frag cast but frag (and light attack with a staff) has travel time where as dawnbreaker does not (and the elemental weapon damage is tied to that light attack travel time). This allows them to land within less than a gcd of each other (once again I do this on live already). And gives you a guaranteed follow up to dawnbreaker (this is where I like to use streak because it's so instant but can also be a elemental weapon light attack).

Lastly, streak will ALWAYS allow your opponent to react to the frag due to the minimum travel time of frag. A great player will always be able to roll or block a frag used after a streak (it's just how the game works) this is the same concept for incap into merciless resolve.

Any other questions?

Galeriano · February 6

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Galeriano

First I can confirm but from my testing Shattering Spine deals damage at the end (or if immune immediately) of the immobilize despite what the notes say (a bit ambiguous). So if they roll it immediately deals damage.

Past that though.

Elemental Weapon deals more damage than Shattering Spine. So by adding that timed ability into the mix instead it already deals more damage than your stated combo as they both use the same number of abilities.

Additionally you're spreading yours out over two gcds versus my one (hence you adding 2 LAs into your calculation).

You mention a gcd between frag cast but frag (and light attack with a staff) has travel time where as dawnbreaker does not (and the elemental weapon damage is tied to that light attack travel time). This allows them to land within less than a gcd of each other (once again I do this on live already). And gives you a guaranteed follow up to dawnbreaker (this is where I like to use streak because it's so instant but can also be a elemental weapon light attack).

Lastly, streak will ALWAYS allow your opponent to react to the frag due to the minimum travel time of frag. A great player will always be able to roll or block a frag used after a streak (it's just how the game works) this is the same concept for incap into merciless resolve.

Any other questions?

Shattering spines always does damage after 4 seconds no matter what enemy is doing. If he will roll dodge or is immune he still gets the dmg after 4 seconds. I tested that on PTS. Immobilize and the dmg are separate entities, damage is applied as a form of 4 seconds debuff on enemy.

As I already said You can copy excatly the same combo with ele weapon and shattering spines although lack of streak in Your combo is a big no.

Like I said all mentioned dmg hit in 1,4 sec on PTS and with better ping than on PTS You can tihghten it up even more.

Dawnbreaker have a 0,4 sec cast time and is a meele ability in a combo where You don't include streak so You're not even guaranteed to be in meele range to the enemy. Basically if enemy dodges, blocks or just moves away few meters before Your dawnbreaker Your whole combo is screwed.

A great player will react to mentioned by You combo even more often. But if You really want You can switch streak and frag in that combo and it becomes even faster. I was able to compile dmg from 2x overload LA, crystal frag, haunting curse, shattering spines, endless fury explosion and streak withinh 1,1 sec time frame. Here are two separate logs as example

And that was with around 250 ping and 250-400 desync values. If You use streak before frag combo becomes slightly slower (around 1,4 sec with the same bad latency).
Can You provide any data showing how fast Your whole combo takes to deal dmg?

On a side note it's worth to mention that overload after streak won't be blocked or dodged because it happens right after streak stun. And if You need or want to You can folllow that streak with dawnbreaker, another frag if it procced or endless fury. If You use streak before frag combo full duration extends a little bit. It's basically up to You wheter You want to use frag before or after streak and You can decide on it based on how You expect enemy to behave. I am not saying it will be one combo to rule them all and that sorcs will be demolishing everyone left and right. What I am saying is that shattering spines dmg change brings a little comeback to an old way of playing sorc in PvP that was removed with magicka detonation changes years ago.

Any other questions?

Jsmalls · February 8

@Galeriano

Retested Shattering spines and what I was seeing was if cast twice it activates the previous proc immediately while starting a new 4 second timer.

So this is indeed another way to add delayed damage, agreed. It does hit lighter than elemental weapon and at a point you have to decide which abilities to take. Shattering, curse, frag, mages wrath, streak, elemental weapon is 6 bar spaces and 6 gcds (which is a lot of time spent doing "no damage") and you'll likely be forced to mess up your combo to heal because of this. Regardless definitely is interesting. I would probably recommend dropping 1-2 of the abilities and just working with 4 timed abilities to make it a more reliable burst that doesn't destroy your bar space.

As you stated I would recommend fragging before streaking (depending if you have dawnbreaker up). Because fragging after the streak will get avoided.

But yes Shattering, curse, wrath, elemental weapon (skip light attack), OL LA frag, streak/dawnbreaker would be an insane combo that would all hit in a single GCD.

Duke_Falcon · February 8

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Galeriano

Retested Shattering spines and what I was seeing was if cast twice it activates the previous proc immediately while starting a new 4 second timer.

So this is indeed another way to add delayed damage, agreed. It does hit lighter than elemental weapon and at a point you have to decide which abilities to take. Shattering, curse, frag, mages wrath, streak, elemental weapon is 6 bar spaces and 6 gcds (which is a lot of time spent doing "no damage") and you'll likely be forced to mess up your combo to heal because of this. Regardless definitely is interesting. I would probably recommend dropping 1-2 of the abilities and just working with 4 timed abilities to make it a more reliable burst that doesn't destroy your bar space.

As you stated I would recommend fragging before streaking (depending if you have dawnbreaker up). Because fragging after the streak will get avoided.

But yes Shattering, curse, wrath, elemental weapon (skip light attack), OL LA frag, streak/dawnbreaker would be an insane combo that would all hit in a single GCD.

I like your creative thinking, but brother that is a lot to try and line up. Its really not practical. 3 skills in a delayed damage burst combo is about as much as a person can practically carry out, because of CC timers and Line of Sight obstacles.

MashmalloMan · February 8

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Galeriano

Retested Shattering spines and what I was seeing was if cast twice it activates the previous proc immediately while starting a new 4 second timer.

So this is indeed another way to add delayed damage, agreed. It does hit lighter than elemental weapon and at a point you have to decide which abilities to take. Shattering, curse, frag, mages wrath, streak, elemental weapon is 6 bar spaces and 6 gcds (which is a lot of time spent doing "no damage") and you'll likely be forced to mess up your combo to heal because of this. Regardless definitely is interesting. I would probably recommend dropping 1-2 of the abilities and just working with 4 timed abilities to make it a more reliable burst that doesn't destroy your bar space.

As you stated I would recommend fragging before streaking (depending if you have dawnbreaker up). Because fragging after the streak will get avoided.

But yes Shattering, curse, wrath, elemental weapon (skip light attack), OL LA frag, streak/dawnbreaker would be an insane combo that would all hit in a single GCD.

I like your creative thinking, but brother that is a lot to try and line up. Its really not practical. 3 skills in a delayed damage burst combo is about as much as a person can practically carry out, because of CC timers and Line of Sight obstacles.

Yep. I've tried every delayed burst combo in the past that I could think of and I usually end up back to where I started because to put it simply..

Less is more.

And..

What ain't broke, don't fix.

Jsmalls · February 8

@Duke_Falcon and @MashmalloMan

No agreed, 6 abilities is way too much to line up and way too much bar space.

That's why I was saying 4 abilities to line up is probably the max I'd go for.

FoJul · February 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Sorc is second best dps behind arcanist? Or am i Tripping? Magsorc has been the king of dps since time itself was a thing. Even after oakensoul nerf magsorc was still wanted. Everyone was Magsorc right before Arcanist release. Then everyone was Arcanist.

When you compare sorc to other classes its a slap in the face. As sorc as one of the easiest rotations there is. its 2nd place to Arcanist. You see how popular they rose up to be because of how simpe they are. Before high isle, you can slap on perfected Maelstrom and do 80k dps with light attacks and elemental blockade. Literally so simple.

On a Necro/NB/Warden/ and even plar you have to juggle like 8 different timers that are all very short for the most part. Sorc is in an exceptional spot and with the buffs, they are even in a greater spot than before. I can't see how anyone says sorc still needs more.

Sorc on PTS as is easily S tier.

Galeriano · February 9

FoJul wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Sorc is second best dps behind arcanist? Or am i Tripping? Magsorc has been the king of dps since time itself was a thing. Even after oakensoul nerf magsorc was still wanted. Everyone was Magsorc right before Arcanist release. Then everyone was Arcanist.

When you compare sorc to other classes its a slap in the face. As sorc as one of the easiest rotations there is. its 2nd place to Arcanist. You see how popular they rose up to be because of how simpe they are. Before high isle, you can slap on perfected Maelstrom and do 80k dps with light attacks and elemental blockade. Literally so simple.

On a Necro/NB/Warden/ and even plar you have to juggle like 8 different timers that are all very short for the most part. Sorc is in an exceptional spot and with the buffs, they are even in a greater spot than before. I can't see how anyone says sorc still needs more.

Sorc on PTS as is easily S tier.

Sorc is nowhere near beeing 2nd best DD after arcanist. When it comes to group content DK and templar easily outparse sorc. Even necro in a good day can outparse it. Sorc can only shine with high dummy parses because he can cheese preloaded overload. If sorc wouldn't provide major berserk and minor prophecy for the group he would be propably completly skipped in optimised trial setups. Class heavily lacks AoE and at single target it is just doing ok numbers, nothing astonishing. Right before arcanist release meta class was a DK, sorc was popular because it was the best class for oakensoul one bar HA setups. During game existance magsorc was king of DPS only periodically same as almost every other class in the game excluding warden. There are classes that had longer reigns.

While sorc rotation is not the hardest it's also not the easiest if someone wants to maximize dmg potential. There are still dynamic elements in it like random procs of frag or stacking bound armanents with light attacks. Sorc grew into popularity mainly due to 2 reasons. It have shield and surge which are known for helping many players to survive better than they could on other classes and it have pets which allow for slightly higher DPS floor than majority of other classes.

While sorc have less timers to manage than some of the other classes when using crystal frag it adds a dynamic that no other class have and perfectly managing frag procs while maintaining other uptimes properly can also be a challenging task and is propably the most dynamic feature among all the classes since it cannot be predicted so sometimes decisions needs to be made in a split of second.

PvE wise sorc on PTS is not any better than currently on live. It got slight DPS increase due to status effect buffs.

Tannus15 · February 9

@Galeriano nicely put, though you're also leaving off the fact that with almost all sorc skills being direct damage speed and time on target are critical for high dps.
it's super important for sorcs to be alwys doing their rotation on the right target or the dps just vanishes, unlike other classes like DK whose dots keep ticking if you falter for a moment.

@FoJul it seems pretty clear you're talking about oakensorc build which were popular until most of the cleave was removed from lightning staff heavy attacks and then all the simplicity and survivability was given to arcanist in the form of pragmatic fate carver.

the fact is that sorc is badly lacking in cleave options and without access to major prophecy / savagery are stuck running spell / weapon power pots instead of heroism pots.
they really are a one trick pony for single target damage and have the least amount of flex spots unless you drop the pets which tanks the dps.

Turtle_Bot · February 9

FoJul wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Or am i Tripping?

Yes, you are.

Over the past few years, the ONLY things sorcerer has been "at the top" of are:
- Cheesing parses with pre-loaded 500 ult overloads (not viable in actual content).
- Heavy attack builds, (exclusively due to the pets and the +5% shock damage passive).

Parsing:

As others have pointed out, the only reason sorcerer is ahead of other classes, specifically in terms of parsing, is exclusively due to the pre-loaded overload cheese that is never actually done in actual in-game content, because doing this cheese method in actual content, completely tanks the entire groups DPS by 10% or more (which no class, let alone a sorcerer, can make up for that amount of group DPS loss, especially in trial level content, where that kind of DPS loss is basically running the content with 1 less person).

Heavy attack build:

The build you are thinking of is the pre-nerf oakensoul heavy attack build that on its best day was parsing barely over 100k (which is enough to clear all content outside of score pushing).
What made this build popular though, was not the damage it did, but was that it was sturdy as well as doing decent levels of damage, which made it very forgiving to play (much like the current Live Arcanist) for players who are still growing.

Sorcerer was popular for this build because of the pets (making it significantly easier to play this build on sorcerer), but also the 5% shock damage passive, which added up to quite a lot of extra damage back when every tick of the heavy attack was fully AoE.

This build was also heavily nerfed for vet HM trial level content when ZOS removed the area portion of lightning staff heavy attack ticks outside of the final tick.

This tanked it's in-content DPS significantly because now it can still hit 100k on a single target, but unless the adds are pulled into the boss every 2 seconds perfectly, it has minimal cleave damage (much like sorcerer in general).

ZOS then released Arcanist which kept the AoE DPS of the old HA sorc, but with better survivability as well as providing significant group utility on top of that. Oh and Arcanist gets to parse the same as other classes (around the 130-135k region), so it's not like arcanist was 20-30% behind other more complicated classes to play for having that level of DPS and survivability.

Before Arcanist was released, all high end PvE groups were running 8-10 DK, 1 warden, 1 plar and 1 support sorc (for atro), because DK parsed on par with sorcerers, but had significantly greater cleave damage that actual content required. DK was everywhere on the group content leaderboards.

No class has ever been able to do 80k DPS with just wall + light attacks. It's physically impossible to reach those numbers like that, even with both the old maelstrom arena destro staff effect AND overload active, even on the trial dummy.

Cleave:

Sorc has abysmal cleave damage in general, the second worst in the game currently, right behind NB. This has been a huge issue for sorcerers for a long time because of how ZOS keeps designing majority of its content to require a lot of cleave damage to be effective (hence why NB is also struggling in PvE currently).
The ONLY thing keeping sorcerer relevant in groups (and above NB in terms of cleave damage) right now is exclusively the atro synergy that grants group wide major berserk. If it wasn't for that specific synergy, or if ZOS releases an easy to use set that provides group wide major berserk, sorcerer would completely vanish from end game PvE content entirely because it's AoE DPS doesn't keep up with the other classes like DK, plar (even necro sometimes) and especially Arcanist. NB healer would already cover the minor crit chance passive too, so no need for sorcerer, even for that.

It wouldn't be so bad if sorcerer could reach 15-20% more single target dps than the other classes, but it's barely 5% more (even with the PTS buffs) and that is exclusive to pet STAMINA sorcerer. Magicka Sorcerer (outside of the heavy attack build outlined above that capped at barely over 100k) hasn't been a relevant end game PvE DPS class for years now, even more so when not running the pets, ever since ZOS decided to shift away from sorcerer using its spells and forced the class's entire sustained DPS (PvE DPS) budget into the pets + prey.

Pelanora · February 9

I spent some time looking at the esologs for different trials last night and the damage by skills has a couple of sorc skills hitting hard-ish but the top is always arcanist and most sorc skills are waaay down the list. That beam hits hardest by so much more than the next skill on the list. Crazy.

Ezhh · February 9

How anyone could think sorc has recently been top for PvE until arcanist showed up baffles me.

As people have pointed out above, sorc excels at single target damage in short fights when it can abuse overload, but this doesn't apply to real content where it's at best going to be the equal in single target to many other classes.

Those same classes then out-perform it because of the cleave damage built into their single target rotations. A lot of trial fights need a certain amount of cleave. The end result is that something that is passable by a full group of arcanists or a full group of DKs, even a full group of plars, would be a lot rougher on a full group of sorcs because the cleave is harder to build in. I'd go as far as saying some content is borderline unclearable on a full sorc group. (Note I say borderline, not literally impossible.) The moment you see these kinds of discrepancy, you know there's a problem with balance.

Right now optimised groups might take ONE sorc for the atro synergy. That sorc may also be on support sets like MK. Sorcs are not seen as a good choice for parse DD. They lack the cleave of many other classes, and also lack bar spare to get all the buffs needed to be able to easily use ult pots, which further sets them behind classes which can do this at the highest levels.

I got excited when I read in the patch notes that sorc, especially no pet sorc (I wanted to play a lightning mage, not a zoo) was the focus for class changes, but the changes are not going to do much for dps and don't address the biggest pain points sorc mains have been facing in PvE for years (very low cleave damage, little to no bar space for utility, loss in damage if attempting no pet builds since so much of the power budget is caught up in the pets, can't easily use ult pots due to missing major buffs if they do).

Hottytotz · February 9

FoJul wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Sorc is second best dps behind arcanist? Or am i Tripping? Magsorc has been the king of dps since time itself was a thing. Even after oakensoul nerf magsorc was still wanted. Everyone was Magsorc right before Arcanist release. Then everyone was Arcanist.

When you compare sorc to other classes its a slap in the face. As sorc as one of the easiest rotations there is. its 2nd place to Arcanist. You see how popular they rose up to be because of how simpe they are. Before high isle, you can slap on perfected Maelstrom and do 80k dps with light attacks and elemental blockade. Literally so simple.

On a Necro/NB/Warden/ and even plar you have to juggle like 8 different timers that are all very short for the most part. Sorc is in an exceptional spot and with the buffs, they are even in a greater spot than before. I can't see how anyone says sorc still needs more.

Sorc on PTS as is easily S tier.

Your tripping huge bllls.... Sorc has not been second or top dps for 3-4 years now I think.... It has always been a good noob or solo friendly class but not dpsing for a long while now.

MashmalloMan · February 9

Hottytotz wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

overall i'm happy with all the changes.
none of them are bad, all of them are welcome.

however.
the thing that scares me most is zos going "ok, job done" when sorc, mag sorc in particular, is so far behind all other classes in pve.

cleave matters and the sorc has terrible cleave.
if you try and use the skills sorc has to try and bring up your cleave, then your single target drops dramatically. apparantly we can't have both.

furthermore our single target isn't exceptional. it's good, but it's not like 10% higher than everyone else to compensate for our lack of cleave or buffs.
it's just as good as everyone else.

leaving me with the question, why bring a sorc? you can get similar damage with other classes while also getting cleave, so why bring a "specialist" that just isn't special?

Sorc is second best dps behind arcanist? Or am i Tripping? Magsorc has been the king of dps since time itself was a thing. Even after oakensoul nerf magsorc was still wanted. Everyone was Magsorc right before Arcanist release. Then everyone was Arcanist.

When you compare sorc to other classes its a slap in the face. As sorc as one of the easiest rotations there is. its 2nd place to Arcanist. You see how popular they rose up to be because of how simpe they are. Before high isle, you can slap on perfected Maelstrom and do 80k dps with light attacks and elemental blockade. Literally so simple.

On a Necro/NB/Warden/ and even plar you have to juggle like 8 different timers that are all very short for the most part. Sorc is in an exceptional spot and with the buffs, they are even in a greater spot than before. I can't see how anyone says sorc still needs more.

Sorc on PTS as is easily S tier.

Your tripping huge bllls.... Sorc has not been second or top dps for 3-4 years now I think.... It has always been a good noob or solo friendly class but not dpsing for a long while now.

They referenced Oakensoul which is all you need to know. Even at it's peak, Oakensorc didn't offer the highest possible dps in end game pve. It was heavily abused in pvp though.

FoJul · February 9

Ezhh wrote: »

How anyone could think sorc has recently been top for PvE until arcanist showed up baffles me.

As people have pointed out above, sorc excels at single target damage in short fights when it can abuse overload, but this doesn't apply to real content where it's at best going to be the equal in single target to many other classes.

Those same classes then out-perform it because of the cleave damage built into their single target rotations. A lot of trial fights need a certain amount of cleave. The end result is that something that is passable by a full group of arcanists or a full group of DKs, even a full group of plars, would be a lot rougher on a full group of sorcs because the cleave is harder to build in. I'd go as far as saying some content is borderline unclearable on a full sorc group. (Note I say borderline, not literally impossible.) The moment you see these kinds of discrepancy, you know there's a problem with balance.

Right now optimised groups might take ONE sorc for the atro synergy. That sorc may also be on support sets like MK. Sorcs are not seen as a good choice for parse DD. They lack the cleave of many other classes, and also lack bar spare to get all the buffs needed to be able to easily use ult pots, which further sets them behind classes which can do this at the highest levels.

I got excited when I read in the patch notes that sorc, especially no pet sorc (I wanted to play a lightning mage, not a zoo) was the focus for class changes, but the changes are not going to do much for dps and don't address the biggest pain points sorc mains have been facing in PvE for years (very low cleave damage, little to no bar space for utility, loss in damage if attempting no pet builds since so much of the power budget is caught up in the pets, can't easily use ult pots due to missing major buffs if they do).

All the outrage, I said am i tripping? Because everyone i knew was throwing together sorcs for PvE, Mainly because it was easy, and Unless you were wanting to do vCR, you can easily get into groups as oakensorc.

When I started PvE, Years back I have always been a PvE sorc, Even today i still play my sorc for PvE purposes. Sure a lot of classes are decent now. But Before high isle, and after High Isle, it seemed like sorc was the most popular still.

I remember on the solo content leaderboards, Sorcs were usually doing really well. In trials Sorcs were still doing very well. They may not be number 1 but they definitely aren't last.

And for a PvP picture, The recent buffs have made them strong, almost too strong. Even Sorc mains know that a sorc meta is coming. But, for PvE I guess it can join the boat with Nightblade (getting over buffed in PvP, for minor changes in PvE).

Edit: Sounds like with the change to how Tri-Focus works on lightning staff, that people need to drop the oakensorc and go back to old playstyle. Or find a new playstyle. Most classes are using Ele blockade/ Orb for cleave dots. Add that with Lightning flood or the other morph, and you have decent cleave.

Also, I think its wierd how Sorc Tanks are actually really viable. Everyone always ignores the fact that Sorc tank> Plar tank LOL.

Another Edit: Also the original comment about 2nd place is sorc was actually a Question too. I wasn't stating they were 2nd best I was asking, because i know how popular they were.

Turtle_Bot · February 10

The thing is, popular does not always equal best. NB PvE DPS is a prime example of this.

Sorc was/is popular because of a few things:
- The only traditional "mage" style class in ESO (which is always very popular, right alongside any assassin/stealth class).
- Pets are super simple to manage (easier to play and some players like having pets/summons).
- The oakensoul heavy attack build made it a super easy build to play that was very forgiving thanks to the resistances provided by oakensoul while having good enough DPS (thanks to pets and the shock damage passive) and most importantly it used to have good cleave that was on par with classes like DK and plar which made it actually useful in real content and not just parsing a trial dummy.

The build was never top tier meta in terms of pushing out raw (140k+) DPS and trying to play a sorc with a traditional LA weaving build (especially without pets) has been a huge struggle for actual content for literally years, due to:
- the lack of cleave
- too many abilities with cast times/cast delays/cast animations making them very clunky
- too much of the class's PvE DPS is locked behind the pets (and prey).

No, Lightning Splash/morphs are not good cleave options. Too much of that abilities power is tied to the synergy that the caster cannot activate and the ability is still extremely clunky to use because of its hidden cast delay despite being an "instant cast" ability. So realistically sorc has wall/orbs (which all classes have) and hurricane (which forces sorc into melee). The only time lightning splash is ran is when the group is desperate for 1 more synergy and already has every other synergy already covered, or hurricane is completely (and I mean, completely) useless.

The other thing is, we cannot simply compare a class to the worst option available for a specific role/mode and just say that the class is fine. If we do that, then we should be saying that all classes (even necro and plar) are all fine as is and don't need any changes, which we all know is not the case.

Just because sorc tank is better than (well has a niche over) a plar tank, or a Warden PvE DD, or a NB trial DD, or PvP Necro, doesn't mean sorc is top tier, or even in a good spot. Especially if the spot that sorcerer is good in, is not related to actual content being played (parse cheesing) or in a niche build that is easy to play, but significantly weaker compared to other builds (heavy attack builds).
Especially if we are to talk about no-pet sorc (the OG sorcerer playstyle from launch/first 2-3 years of ESO's lifespan), which until the proposed U41 changes currently being tested on the PTS, was even 10% behind Necro, Warden and NB DD for PvE (all PvE), even when using the same build where it parsed 110k with pre-nerf pillar (barely beating out a heavy attack build, but without any of the other benefits that build has).

ZOS made Pets mandatory for sorcerer in PvE (despite many not liking them and this not being sorcerers original design focus) and most of the time, pets are only really functioning because of ZOS giving pets immunity to boss mechanics and 99% incoming damage reduction to boss AoE's so the pets actually have a chance to survive in that content that would otherwise completely invalidate them as a playstyle.
For proof of this, go see what happened, and the outcry over it, in week 1 of IA release where pets were useless in IA outside of Arc 1, and even there, they were barely functional due to not being given those immunities/damage reduction. That hardly sounds like a viable/strong playstyle if is being propped up by ZOS approved cheats that force it to be viable.

In saying all that, we don't need a huge buff to no-pet sorcerer for PvE DPS.

By tidying a few things up:

- Remove the cast animation/delay on lightning splash/morphs and give it a really high base chance to proc concussed on every tick. (this makes it more in line with scamp for DPS).
- Give Bound Armor/morphs major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar (remove the bonus max stats) and armaments morph gets a small bonus to crit chance (1% to 1.5%) per active dagger, since they only last 10 seconds max unlike MR which lasts until cast. (This does a few things, (1) significantly reduces the viability of max stat stacking potential by up to 15%, balancing that niche sorc build for PvP, (2) allows sorcerer to finally use heroism pots since it now doesn't need crit chance from pots, (3) hybridizes this morph for all sorcs instead of limiting its max potential to stamina sorcerers only).
- Rework majority of Magic damage to be Shock damage instead, to get the boost from DPS passives and have better uptime on concussed. (The few damage passives sorc has only boosts the fewest (and weakest) of sorcs active abilities, not the majority, there's also a lot more physical damage weapon/global abilities than there are shock damage weapon/global abilities).
- Tidy up Expert summoner passive so the stats don't revert when using Atro ultimate (stats still revert if using permanent pets, but not temporary pets). (This allows no pet sorc to still play a support role like pet sorcs currently do since atro is sorcs best PvE ultimate, bar none).
- Adjust 1 morph of fury to be a more traditional execute or an instant cast spammable. (This is more of a nice thing to have so not really expected, but it would help in terms of bar space and would get the class using class DPS active abilities again, this is also the biggest change, so would be the least likely to occur/expect).

To prevent pet builds from being too strong with these changes, takes 1 simple change:

- Revert the pet bonus damage granted by Prey from its current 45% back to its old 20% increased damage taken. (Could test out 25% if they really want to, to find that sweet spot that has both pet/no-pet sorcs on par with each other).

FoJul · February 10

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The thing is, popular does not always equal best. NB PvE DPS is a prime example of this.

Sorc was/is popular because of a few things:
- The only traditional "mage" style class in ESO (which is always very popular, right alongside any assassin/stealth class).
- Pets are super simple to manage (easier to play and some players like having pets/summons).
- The oakensoul heavy attack build made it a super easy build to play that was very forgiving thanks to the resistances provided by oakensoul while having good enough DPS (thanks to pets and the shock damage passive) and most importantly it used to have good cleave that was on par with classes like DK and plar which made it actually useful in real content and not just parsing a trial dummy.
The build was never top tier meta in terms of pushing out raw (140k+) DPS and trying to play a sorc with a traditional LA weaving build (especially without pets) has been a huge struggle for actual content for literally years, due to:
- the lack of cleave
- too many abilities with cast times/cast delays/cast animations making them very clunky
- too much of the class's PvE DPS is locked behind the pets (and prey).

No, Lightning Splash/morphs are not good cleave options. Too much of that abilities power is tied to the synergy that the caster cannot activate and the ability is still extremely clunky to use because of its hidden cast delay despite being an "instant cast" ability. So realistically sorc has wall/orbs (which all classes have) and hurricane (which forces sorc into melee). The only time lightning splash is ran is when the group is desperate for 1 more synergy and already has every other synergy already covered, or hurricane is completely (and I mean, completely) useless.

The other thing is, we cannot simply compare a class to the worst option available for a specific role/mode and just say that the class is fine. If we do that, then we should be saying that all classes (even necro and plar) are all fine as is and don't need any changes, which we all know is not the case.

Just because sorc tank is better than (well has a niche over) a plar tank, or a Warden PvE DD, or a NB trial DD, or PvP Necro, doesn't mean sorc is top tier, or even in a good spot. Especially if the spot that sorcerer is good in, is not related to actual content being played (parse cheesing) or in a niche build that is easy to play, but significantly weaker compared to other builds (heavy attack builds).
Especially if we are to talk about no-pet sorc (the OG sorcerer playstyle from launch/first 2-3 years of ESO's lifespan), which until the proposed U41 changes currently being tested on the PTS, was even 10% behind Necro, Warden and NB DD for PvE (all PvE), even when using the same build where it parsed 110k with pre-nerf pillar (barely beating out a heavy attack build, but without any of the other benefits that build has).

ZOS made Pets mandatory for sorcerer in PvE (despite many not liking them and this not being sorcerers original design focus) and most of the time, pets are only really functioning because of ZOS giving pets immunity to boss mechanics and 99% incoming damage reduction to boss AoE's so the pets actually have a chance to survive in that content that would otherwise completely invalidate them as a playstyle.
For proof of this, go see what happened, and the outcry over it, in week 1 of IA release where pets were useless in IA outside of Arc 1, and even there, they were barely functional due to not being given those immunities/damage reduction. That hardly sounds like a viable/strong playstyle if is being propped up by ZOS approved cheats that force it to be viable.

In saying all that, we don't need a huge buff to no-pet sorcerer for PvE DPS.
By tidying a few things up:
- Remove the cast animation/delay on lightning splash/morphs and give it a really high base chance to proc concussed on every tick. (this makes it more in line with scamp for DPS).
- Give Bound Armor/morphs major Prophecy/Savagery while slotted on either bar (remove the bonus max stats) and armaments morph gets a small bonus to crit chance (1% to 1.5%) per active dagger, since they only last 10 seconds max unlike MR which lasts until cast. (This does a few things, (1) significantly reduces the viability of max stat stacking potential by up to 15%, balancing that niche sorc build for PvP, (2) allows sorcerer to finally use heroism pots since it now doesn't need crit chance from pots, (3) hybridizes this morph for all sorcs instead of limiting its max potential to stamina sorcerers only).
- Rework majority of Magic damage to be Shock damage instead, to get the boost from DPS passives and have better uptime on concussed. (The few damage passives sorc has only boosts the fewest (and weakest) of sorcs active abilities, not the majority, there's also a lot more physical damage weapon/global abilities than there are shock damage weapon/global abilities).
- Tidy up Expert summoner passive so the stats don't revert when using Atro ultimate (stats still revert if using permanent pets, but not temporary pets). (This allows no pet sorc to still play a support role like pet sorcs currently do since atro is sorcs best PvE ultimate, bar none).
- Adjust 1 morph of fury to be a more traditional execute or an instant cast spammable. (This is more of a nice thing to have so not really expected, but it would help in terms of bar space and would get the class using class DPS active abilities again, this is also the biggest change, so would be the least likely to occur/expect).

To prevent pet builds from being too strong with these changes, takes 1 simple change:
- Revert the pet bonus damage granted by Prey from its current 45% back to its old 20% increased damage taken. (Could test out 25% if they really want to, to find that sweet spot that has both pet/no-pet sorcs on par with each other).

I mean Nightblade is also a mage a shadowy one at that. Don't make me bring up the lore again, haha jkjk.

Mageblade will forever live in my heart, but yeah all I'm really saying is be careful for what you ask for, gonna have pop lock in pvp with sorcs on one faction pretty soon.

Turtle_Bot · February 10

Yeah, that's why I mentioned to buff PvE specific abilities that need it (splash) and make adjustments that keep a similar current power level, but make for QoL improvements and provide alternative options for abilities that are good in both modes (BA, damage types/passives/fury).

Ezhh · February 10

FoJul wrote: »

All the outrage, I said am i tripping? Because everyone i knew was throwing together sorcs for PvE, Mainly because it was easy, and Unless you were wanting to do vCR, you can easily get into groups as oakensorc.

When I started PvE, Years back I have always been a PvE sorc, Even today i still play my sorc for PvE purposes. Sure a lot of classes are decent now. But Before high isle, and after High Isle, it seemed like sorc was the most popular still.

I remember on the solo content leaderboards, Sorcs were usually doing really well. In trials Sorcs were still doing very well. They may not be number 1 but they definitely aren't last.

And for a PvP picture, The recent buffs have made them strong, almost too strong. Even Sorc mains know that a sorc meta is coming. But, for PvE I guess it can join the boat with Nightblade (getting over buffed in PvP, for minor changes in PvE).

Edit: Sounds like with the change to how Tri-Focus works on lightning staff, that people need to drop the oakensorc and go back to old playstyle. Or find a new playstyle. Most classes are using Ele blockade/ Orb for cleave dots. Add that with Lightning flood or the other morph, and you have decent cleave.

Also, I think its wierd how Sorc Tanks are actually really viable. Everyone always ignores the fact that Sorc tank> Plar tank LOL.

Another Edit: Also the original comment about 2nd place is sorc was actually a Question too. I wasn't stating they were 2nd best I was asking, because i know how popular they were.

I think Turtle_Bot already cleared up a lot of the points really nicely (thank you Turtle_Bot - from a long time sorc main, it's very refreshing to read such well considered suggestions on how to fix the issues we have for PvE).

Sorc has always been popular, and has had a reputation for being easy to play, which likely contributes to this a lot, but it's just that it doesn't hold up against arc or even DK in actual end game content due to all the issues mentioned. It may well get used a lot in lower/mid level raiding groups because of Oakensoul/HA builds and so on, but as has been said, popularity is very different from it being in a good and balanced place compared to other classes, and sadly the PTS changes are not looking like they will fix the sorc PvE DD situation.

Faulgor · February 10

Sorc was also really popular from the beginning because of Crit Surge. Healing while doing damage, combined with the best shield in the game, made it an incredible solo class.
Of course since then, crit chance and subsequently Crit Surge was nerfed again and again, and with the addition of the Ring of the Pale Order, everybody can heal while doing damage. Sorcerers stand-out feature is nothing special anymore, and all its other skill sets haven't kept up with the rest of the classes.

Duke_Falcon · February 10

You know what Sorcs need more of, is Range on their skills. I'll Streak from someone twice because its necessary to overcome all the speed increases in this game, but when I heal and turn to throw Cruse, I'm out of range.