Remove Classes -- just hear me out

Vulkunne · January 27

merpins wrote: »

Before you brandish your pitchforks for suggesting an outlandish idea, let me explain. Class identity right now is a problem in this game. Some have a strong identity. Some don't and just feel confused. Another problem is skill lines. Zos is showing this problem with the next update; they already made a new class last major update, so making another to add more skill lines to the game would be too much. Adding a new weapon skill line would cause a ton more work on the backend than adding the skill line itself due to the nature of having a long-running game with a lot of content, adding those weapons all throughout the game would prove more challenging than making the skill line.

So what does Zos do with all this in mind? Spellcrafting. Well, Scribing I guess. They add new skills to existing skill lines and make those skills variable so you, the player, can customize them how you want. You'll be stuck with the functionality of the skills you get, sure; can't make a backflip skill into a long range attack skill after all, but it kind of addresses the problems I mentioned above. They can add more to what's there, which circumvents the problem... But doesn't really address other problems. Like class identity, or class imbalance, or the fact that they can't really add new skill lines to the game without either a ton of back-end work, or being forced to make 3 at once.

So the suggestion in the title stands. Remove Classes. I've seen the suggestion before and over the last 6 months or so I've thought about it and really begun to felt it would bring a lot of life to the game. Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes. The current classes that exist are just the overarching themes for their skill lines. Nightblade is the theme for its current skill lines, Sorcerer for its skills, and so on. What this change would bring to the table for the developers is it would give Zos the ability to add more skill lines to the game without the restrictions that they had before. They could add a fourth skill line to every class in the game, and could do it one at a time rather than all at once, without making one class more powerful than another. Sorcerer doesn't have a dedicated healer skill line, but with themes, Zos could make one. Warden never got a good plant-based damage skill line. It could get that. It won't make one class stronger than another, you get three choices regardless of what those choices are. You could pick Assassin, Animal Companions from Warden, and Aedric Spear from Templar, or any combination of 3, allowing for a ton of class versatility. This allows you the player to choose your class identity like previous elder scrolls titles, rather than being forced one from the beginning.

Not only would Zos get the ability to make new skill lines for existing classes, but they'd be able to make new class themes without releasing 3 skill lines. Arcanist is great, don't get me wrong. But the fact that we need to wait 3-5 years between classes is a long wait, and it's a lot of development that Zos needs to put in to one theme. They could release a Monk class theme with one skill line available at first, and release more skill lines later. They could release new weapon skill lines under a weapon theme, allowing them to add new weapons without having to add those weapons to all content; sure, you'd have to pick this theme meaning it's not as versatile as actual weapon skill lines, but it would be possible. Additionally, they'd finally be able to add class change tokens to the cash shop, since it would make more sense with the change.

There are downsides here, of course. Balancing the whole thing would prove difficult I'm sure. But with the limit to the skills you can slot on your front and back bar, the fact that you only get 3 skill line choices, it probably wouldn't be too broken. And it's much easier to balance one skill line at a time than a whole class, considering the fact that class balances can kill a whole class. With themes, balance changes can't kill a class anymore. It would bring about a period of time where balance patches become common, and classes see a lot of changes throughout a year or two. More so than in recent memory. But once that initial period of balance changes ends, you'd have a system that's much easier to balance than the current system. Another downside would be the class change token. It would probably be locked behind the cash shop, but I mean... We've been asking for that in the cash shop for years already. I don't see it as much of a problem, so long as Zos allows one free change per character that you already have upon release of this system.

I agree with this to a point. Keep classes but then let's have like a wildcard class where you can sort of draw things from a hat. On that level I completely agree but because we have to draw from somewhere, we need to keep classes maintained and live.

We'll call this class "Rogue" (real original right) and you can either have the skill lines pulled and put together in piece or have all the skills randomly jumbled together into skill lines from existing classes, but you cannot choose them individually. Your characters starts on the mean streets of your alliance city (also random) with a black leather jacket and a pack of smokes.

Billium813 · January 27

We all know what this is really about...

merpins · January 27

Billium813 wrote: »

We all know what this is really about...

That's a good one lol.

Monte_Cristo · January 27

I agree, but I'm not sure if they could actually do it. If it can be done, then they should defiantly do it.

SilverBride · January 27

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

No.

This.

Artim_X · January 27

Class change shrine sure, but complete removal no way.

NeuroticPixels · January 27

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

thats one of the reasons they arent even able to give us a class change token right now

I’m in full support of removing classes. But, I would be friggin’ ticked if they implemented and sold class change tokens, and then later down the line, removed classes.

BenTSG · January 27

This is something I'd wished ESO would have been. No doubt changing it would be one hell of an undertaking, in both how it would actually work, and rebalancing everything, because let's face it, if we got this system tomorrow with no skill and passive changes, there would be gross imbalanced that favour certain skill line combos.

While I agree that the odds of such a change now is probably pretty far off the table, I'm still going to throw my voice in for favour of it anyways.

Bobargus · January 27

I agree with the idea of removing classes, especially if the new Scribing feature offers enough skill customizations, variations, and combinations to make the idea of class identity meaningless.

For example, if i could get a grimoire skill that makes me invisible each time i use it, then nightblade would become that much meaningless for me, at that point.

But if the Scribing ends up being weak enough for the classes to still maintain their identity and uniqueness, then i'd understand the reason behind why some people would still want the class system to stay as it is. But even then, i'd want the classes to be removed.

Rowjoh · January 27

Your main theme is the suggestion that ZoS needs to remove classes in order to add more skill lines.

This simply isn't true because ZoS can add more skill lines whenever they want - they dont need to remove the classes to do it.

The ratio of skills to skill slots is huge (there are only 5 skill slots / 1 ultimate slot) and it is already overwhelming for some, frustrating for others, so giving us the ability to alter existing skills (scribing) makes more sense and def the right way to go.

IncultaWolf · January 27

Billium813 wrote: »

We all know what this is really about...

Lol really good

notyuu · January 27

Been there, done that in another MMO, and it goes pretty much how @Necrotech_Master says it does, so consider this a solid "no" vote

KS_Amt38 · January 27

God please no.

Fata1moose · January 27

It’s baked into the game. I would like to see them focus on gameplay that benefits the overall game and not just add another class however. Scribing is an excellent start and they could also add skills to classes to address things they are missing.

I’d like to see 1H+destruction with scribable destruction magic, spears weapon skill line and crossbows well before a new class.

Once they add those three weapons and new class skills they can visit a new one. I want something stamina based, in terms of theme, Necromancer and Arcanist feel like they’re based in magic.

Mesite · January 27

I can't even be bothered to read the descriptions on the skills for the class I'm playing, never mind reading the descriptions for ALL the skills from all classes to decide which sounds good.

peacenote · January 27

I wouldn't want to see mixing and matching.

Class identity is not as great as it used to be. It took a lot of hits from the standardization and hybridization and performance initiatives. Not sure that everyone who complains about class identity is referring to this, as a lot of people who were around before all of those initiatives have likely left, but while obviously this is somewhat subjective I believe this to be a true assertion. My main is a Templar so I know those examples the best; here are some: Shards losing their stun. The animation change and timing change of jabs. Orb becoming such a good heal that shards were no longer BIS for providing synergies, thus contributing to the gutting of the Templar's identity as a BIS healer. Bit by bit, the class was standardized or clutch abilities were replaced by non class abilities accessible to everyone. The more the "meta" for a class uses non-class abilities over class abilities, the worse its identity is. (Yes, I understand some people don't care about this, but it is a good yardstick.)

However, despite all of these changes over the years, I don't feel that class identity is in such a bad spot that it should be abandoned altogether. Templar still feels way different than Arcanist which feels way different than Nightblade, to me. And that "feel" is what makes it fun to TRY different classes and swap between them. I think ZOS needs to very carefully think about how the classes feel, and what each one uniquely brings to grouped instanced content, as they evolve the game, to ensure class identity improves and doesn't further devolve.

But I have three of each class and I like the differences. I like how it's different to be a Necro tank vs. a Dragonknight tank. So this would ruin some of the fun of the game for me. In fact, after AwA, it would essentially take away the last reason I still enjoy swapping between alts. It would be meaningless to level my new Arcanist healer and try to beat content with her if I knew I could just access the Armory and swap my Templar healer main to the three Arcanist skill lines whenever I wanted. It would reduce my characters to skins only. And also, for competitive content, to be a good team player, you have to make sacrifices for your group and listen to your group leader. If the Warden/Necro/Nightblade skill line combo is BIS, well, then that's what we'd all have to be. Yuck. As it is, Arcanists are still so OP that they dominate the other classes right now in many raid compositions. Something like this would make it even worse. Creative builds and build diversity are are driven just as much by limitations as they are by options, and this would greatly reduce our limitations. Too much, in my opinion.

I also think balancing the passives would be a nightmare, since the passives often do not only benefit their own tree but sometimes have synergies across the class. (Example: Undead Confederate in the Living Death Necromancer tree.)

There is one thing in your proposal that I found intriguing. I like the idea of ZOS trying to expand the class lines, and I liked your examples (plant damage in Warden, etc.). So the concept of allowing, within the class you chose, additional lines to be added but only three being active at a time, could maybe be a nice way for them to add to the classes and not have to release it all at once, like you said. They'd just have to test, for each line added, that it didn't over-perform too crazily with the different combos already in existence. There would be complainers saying "this update does nothing for me" from some of the one class, one character folks... but maybe they could do two at a time, like the companions, and people would know eventually their class would be enhanced. And they wouldn't have to think as much about if passive x should benefit all skill lines in all classes or not.

This potentially could allow them to improve class identity even further, introducing new ideas limited to a class, at a reasonable pace. So that part sounds fun to me! But I may be missing a downside, and it's possible that Scribing will fill this gap in a different way, anyway.

Trejgon · January 27

Anumaril wrote: »

I'm really in favour of this idea, and it's not even outlandish. Plenty of new MMOs are adopting a classless system, and it's slowly becoming the new normal. The same way people thought action combat was odd in the early days... now they say the same about classless systems.

There is tad difference between plenty of newly made MMOs using a certain design principle and a 10 years old mmo suggenly upending one of it's most core systems.

I have not seen a single well established MMO (like ESO) attempting overhaul of this magnitude this late into game lifespan, and surviving it. To the contrary I saw many games attempting not as large overhauls to it's core systems, not as deep into the lifespan, and dying to it. And by dying to it, I mean bankrupting their developpers to the point of whole company vanishing from the face of earth without much of a trace left (and servers obviously being shut down).

The issue is not that idea of clases TES MMO is outlandish, but the fact that ESO is a 10 years old game, with a well established playerbase. Attempting to morph it into a classless system, or even as little as overhauling class system, poses a huge risk, on getting rid of grand majority of current paying customer, with not enough of replacement to sustain the game. And that is a risk no exec in a studio like ZOS will be happy to take.

Ph1p · January 27

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

Vulkunne · January 27

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

Yeah it could be problematic. I know that the undaunted skill line to a small extent, has skills that seem like they should fit into various classes but are setup as undaunted instead.

Its a cool idea but you're right in the respect that some people would seek to abuse the system. I still think I'm on to something here though, if done right it could be a great thing.

Tandor · January 27

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

If you let players freely choose their skill lines, here's what's going to happen: Every DD will pick 3 DPS skill lines, stack all the passive boosts, combine the best damage skills, and parse 180k tomorrow. Similarly for the other roles. To counteract this massive power creep, ZOS would have to significantly adjust every single skill tree, thereby fundamentally upsetting both PVE and PVP setups.

And even if they manage to navigate this balancing nightmare successfully, it would mean that almost every existing character gets nerfed during the process. So everybody would be force to change their builds to reach their previous power level again.

Please, no! This is a 10 year old game, not an early access title. You cannot have a 1-2 year period any more where "balance patches become common". I'm not opposed to changes and additions to the game, but this would be beyond annoying and tiresome for existing players, while confusing the heck out of new joiners.

Yeah it could be problematic. I know that the undaunted skill line to a small extent, has skills that seem like they should fit into various classes but are setup as undaunted instead.

Its a cool idea but you're right in the respect that some people would seek to abuse the system. I still think I'm on to something here though, if done right it could be a great thing.

Yes, but in a new game from the off. I don't think there's any way it could be done in a 10 years old game without causing massive problems. Developers sadly have a habit of making major changes expecting them to attract new players when all they actually do is drive away the existing ones, at which point the game goes belly-up. SWG:NGE is a case in point. I suspect that is what would happen here, to a game that has never had a problem attracting new players anyway.

RupzSkooma · January 27

I agree with some of the ideas but it fits ESO 2.0 overhaul or next TES MMO. I don’t think it is happening in the next decade at least.

SilverBride · January 27

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

Jarl_Ironheart · January 27

I've suggested

SilverBride wrote: »

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

But you could still identify as those classes and more. You would still be able to use the same 3 skill line of you wanted.

duagloth · January 27

it works for ultima online, and spare me the "people will always play the skills that are best" yea, thats the idea!! why would you want to hobble yourself? meta already exists in armor,skills,class. you dont have to use it, but ffs let other people have fun doing what they want.

SilverBride · January 27

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

I've suggested

SilverBride wrote: »

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

But you could still identify as those classes and more. You would still be able to use the same 3 skill line of you wanted.

No.

Palumtra · January 28

Why do you want to remove classes when pretty much all classes can fulfilly virtually any role?

TaSheen · January 28

Palumtra wrote: »

Why do you want to remove classes when pretty much all classes can fulfilly virtually any role?

A very good question!

Jarl_Ironheart · January 28

SilverBride wrote: »

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

I've suggested

SilverBride wrote: »

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

But you could still identify as those classes and more. You would still be able to use the same 3 skill line of you wanted.

No.

Cool and very articulated point. I appreciate the insightful viewpoint!

SilverBride · January 28

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

I've suggested

SilverBride wrote: »

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

But you could still identify as those classes and more. You would still be able to use the same 3 skill line of you wanted.

No.

Cool and very articulated point. I appreciate the insightful viewpoint!

I said all that was necessary.*

*see peacenote's post

peacenote · January 28

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

I've suggested

SilverBride wrote: »

My characters identify with their classes. I would be very upset if they removed this.

But you could still identify as those classes and more. You would still be able to use the same 3 skill line of you wanted.

No.

Cool and very articulated point. I appreciate the insightful viewpoint!

Well, to be fair... I just put up a very lengthy post about how this change would ruin character identity, consequence of choice, reasons to use alts, and how limiting choices is what makes the classes unique and drives build creativity. Therefore it was pretty logical for SilverBride to just reply with No. I already covered a lot of it.

But I'll go ahead and add... a class with 3 skill lines only is different than a character using 3 skill lines that were historically part of a "class" which no longer remains as an option in the game. As an identity there no longer would be the idea of a "Templar" or "Nightblade" or "Necromancer" if classes were removed. It's not the same. Otherwise you could make the argument now that folks can play "classless" simply by only using abilities from weapon skill lines and common skill lines like the Fighter's Guild. Is a Templar no longer a Templar if they aren't using Templar skills? The answer is no, they are still a Templar because classes exist and Templars exist... the main thing that makes them a Templar is that they CAN'T use Warden skills or Dragonknight skills or Sorcerer skills. They can still identify as a Templar and answer questions about the class by saying "I play a Templar and this is my issue with it..."

A character using historical Templar skill lines at a moment in time, which can be changed at any moment to other skill lines, isn't a Templar. They are just a character with 3 skill lines.