Remove Classes -- just hear me out

merpins

Before you brandish your pitchforks for suggesting an outlandish idea, let me explain. Class identity right now is a problem in this game. Some have a strong identity. Some don't and just feel confused. Another problem is skill lines. Zos is showing this problem with the next update; they already made a new class last major update, so making another to add more skill lines to the game would be too much. Adding a new weapon skill line would cause a ton more work on the backend than adding the skill line itself due to the nature of having a long-running game with a lot of content, adding those weapons all throughout the game would prove more challenging than making the skill line.

So what does Zos do with all this in mind? Spellcrafting. Well, Scribing I guess. They add new skills to existing skill lines and make those skills variable so you, the player, can customize them how you want. You'll be stuck with the functionality of the skills you get, sure; can't make a backflip skill into a long range attack skill after all, but it kind of addresses the problems I mentioned above. They can add more to what's there, which circumvents the problem... But doesn't really address other problems. Like class identity, or class imbalance, or the fact that they can't really add new skill lines to the game without either a ton of back-end work, or being forced to make 3 at once.

So the suggestion in the title stands. Remove Classes. I've seen the suggestion before and over the last 6 months or so I've thought about it and really begun to felt it would bring a lot of life to the game. Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes. The current classes that exist are just the overarching themes for their skill lines. Nightblade is the theme for its current skill lines, Sorcerer for its skills, and so on. What this change would bring to the table for the developers is it would give Zos the ability to add more skill lines to the game without the restrictions that they had before. They could add a fourth skill line to every class in the game, and could do it one at a time rather than all at once, without making one class more powerful than another. Sorcerer doesn't have a dedicated healer skill line, but with themes, Zos could make one. Warden never got a good plant-based damage skill line. It could get that. It won't make one class stronger than another, you get three choices regardless of what those choices are. You could pick Assassin, Animal Companions from Warden, and Aedric Spear from Templar, or any combination of 3, allowing for a ton of class versatility. This allows you the player to choose your class identity like previous elder scrolls titles, rather than being forced one from the beginning.

Not only would Zos get the ability to make new skill lines for existing classes, but they'd be able to make new class themes without releasing 3 skill lines. Arcanist is great, don't get me wrong. But the fact that we need to wait 3-5 years between classes is a long wait, and it's a lot of development that Zos needs to put in to one theme. They could release a Monk class theme with one skill line available at first, and release more skill lines later. They could release new weapon skill lines under a weapon theme, allowing them to add new weapons without having to add those weapons to all content; sure, you'd have to pick this theme meaning it's not as versatile as actual weapon skill lines, but it would be possible. Additionally, they'd finally be able to add class change tokens to the cash shop, since it would make more sense with the change.

There are downsides here, of course. Balancing the whole thing would prove difficult I'm sure. But with the limit to the skills you can slot on your front and back bar, the fact that you only get 3 skill line choices, it probably wouldn't be too broken. And it's much easier to balance one skill line at a time than a whole class, considering the fact that class balances can kill a whole class. With themes, balance changes can't kill a class anymore. It would bring about a period of time where balance patches become common, and classes see a lot of changes throughout a year or two. More so than in recent memory. But once that initial period of balance changes ends, you'd have a system that's much easier to balance than the current system. Another downside would be the class change token. It would probably be locked behind the cash shop, but I mean... We've been asking for that in the cash shop for years already. I don't see it as much of a problem, so long as Zos allows one free change per character that you already have upon release of this system.

Necrotech_Master

i think even if they wanted to, its something thats unlikely to happen because its such a core thing in the game

its enough of a problem thats one of the reasons they arent even able to give us a class change token right now

i could see them being more likely to add a new weapon skill line (1h + x (not a shield or dual wield), staff (melee), or unarmed weapon lines that anyone could use)

they are also planning on expanding things with scribing (adding in a customized flex skill for each weapon/guild skill line)

in my opinion, if you want to see extreme lack of build diversity, then play the game without classes, because 95% of meta builds will be the same, arguably stuff like pvp would get even worse

there is no real way to balance that unless it was redone from the ground up, which is why i see that being unlikely to ever happen

Kavreiss

i see no issue with current class identity. When i hear people complain about class identity all i hear is some trope about how people are not playing as they decide they should play. there are lots of class identity, enough to suit most people with their own unique identity and role play. This is a good thing and not a bad thing.

Kavreiss

But if you could just get rid of classes altogether and create an ala carte menu where you choose skills from each grouping and do away with classes as they exist now and return to early eso skill model, that'd be awesome.

Kavreiss

#NOLABELS

merpins

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think even if they wanted to, its something thats unlikely to happen because its such a core thing in the game

its enough of a problem thats one of the reasons they arent even able to give us a class change token right now

It is a core component of the game because the devs thought that classes are a core component of MMOs. It's an artificial restriction that isn't particularly necessary, since it's not just a restriction on the players but also on the Devs and how they go about developing the game. I didn't argue that it's unlikely due to the nature of it being a core component of the game because yeah, we all already know that. My whole suggestion is about dissolving that core thing and putting those choices into the hands of players, allowing for the players to make their class.

Also I believe that Zos has stated they won't do class change tokens due to how classes work in the game. It would be too complex for them to add a change token like that due to the nature of classes, but this change would probably allow them to facilitate it.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i could see them being more likely to add a new weapon skill line (1h + x (not a shield or dual wield), staff (melee), or unarmed weapon lines that anyone could use)

they are also planning on expanding things with scribing (adding in a customized flex skill for each weapon/guild skill line)

in my opinion, if you want to see extreme lack of build diversity, then play the game without classes, because 95% of meta builds will be the same, arguably stuff like pvp would get even worse

there is no real way to balance that unless it was redone from the ground up, which is why i see that being unlikely to ever happen

It would be a ground-up change. That's the whole suggestion. Adding new weapon skill lines to the game, even if they don't add new weapon models, would still require a lot of the same back-end work because it's not like those are going to be added to your sticker book right away, so they'd still need drop tables for sets. I went over scribing already. And if you think all people will end up one build with this change, then you don't really play this game. There are a ton of great options in this game, this change would make a ton of versatile builds both in PVE and PVP.

Soarora

I don’t think the class system should be deconstructed in ESO however if we for some reason ever got an ESO 2 I’d be all for skill branches with a classless system.

sarahthes

This would erode character identity in PvE endgame even further, and likely PvP as well.

MashmalloMan

As much as I like the idea, I don't want it for ESO. Classes are the basis for which everything else builds off of. About 80% of what YOU particularly like or need comes from your class with the last 20% coming from your build. Universal skills, sets, food, potions, etc. When you pick a class, you pick the good and the bad that it brings, that's what makes it an interesting choice. In a sense, a class should go about "solving problems" in their own way.

As soon as you add pick whatever skill line you want, everyone will find the optimal skill line setup to get the majority of what everyone wants. It would be a never ending balancing nightmare because you can't just look at a whole class, you now have to treat each skill line as a class. Instead of 7 classes to balance, they'd have to balance 21 skill lines individually. That's a lot harder.

Scribing is going to add a lot of versatility, but ideally I'm guessing none of those skills should aim to fully replace a similarly designed skill from within a class. By taking this design approach, everyone can choose to add 1-2 scribed skills while avoiding a situation where all 12 skill slots are Scribed making every build functionally boring and the same thing.

Like as a Sorc, the first thing I want to do is get a scribed skill with Major Savagery/Prophecy because I don't have that in class and I find Camo Hunter boring at this point. Since I like being elusive, maybe I could pair that with the new Vault skill. While another class that has those buffs or wants another playstyle would choose something else. A few customizable skills is flexible enough without shoehorning everyone into the same setup.

Plus. Lots of the skill lines aren't strictly "healing" or "tanking" or "damage". A lot of them are a mix, frankly most of the original 4 classes are designed this way because that idea only came about with the new classes. So either, they keep things the same and you get a bunch of skill line choices where you're getting more of a given type of skill than you should be getting OR they completely rework all of the skill lines to fit those archetypes to the point where most of our favourite class setups are no longer recognizable.

When you start asking a game to change this drastically, you should probably just play a different game that would better suit your interests. I'm not saying this to be toxic and to go quit because of an idea, but just being realistic here.. Some requests go against a games core design, so they probably won't ever happen unless a new version of the game was developed like ESO 2.0.

It's like when people request to remove light and heavy attacks from the game or make them cost a full global cooldown. Please, it's been 10 years.

cmetzger93

Would love to move to a classless system

Vaqual

Maybe a "light version" of this would be feasible, where you remain locked out of certain passives that are only available to the class you pick in the beginning. Or they are stronger or something.

Paramedicus

Well... you didnt give a compelling argument on how developers would prevent build diversity from becoming more constrained than it currently is. It seems evident that players would likely choose a few optimal skill lines .. and rest would be used by roleplayers only.

Consider, for instance, if we had nine tank skill lines divided into categories like Crowd Control (CC), Survival, and Support. What would stop players from only selecting the top skill from each category?.. But if we have 3 tank classes, each excelling in one of these areas, we encourage players to make more meaningful choices. One class could be the best at CC, another at buffing, and the third in survivability.

Necrotech_Master

merpins wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think even if they wanted to, its something thats unlikely to happen because its such a core thing in the game

its enough of a problem thats one of the reasons they arent even able to give us a class change token right now

It is a core component of the game because the devs thought that classes are a core component of MMOs. It's an artificial restriction that isn't particularly necessary, since it's not just a restriction on the players but also on the Devs and how they go about developing the game. I didn't argue that it's unlikely due to the nature of it being a core component of the game because yeah, we all already know that. My whole suggestion is about dissolving that core thing and putting those choices into the hands of players, allowing for the players to make their class.

Also I believe that Zos has stated they won't do class change tokens due to how classes work in the game. It would be too complex for them to add a change token like that due to the nature of classes, but this change would probably allow them to facilitate it.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i could see them being more likely to add a new weapon skill line (1h + x (not a shield or dual wield), staff (melee), or unarmed weapon lines that anyone could use)

they are also planning on expanding things with scribing (adding in a customized flex skill for each weapon/guild skill line)

in my opinion, if you want to see extreme lack of build diversity, then play the game without classes, because 95% of meta builds will be the same, arguably stuff like pvp would get even worse

there is no real way to balance that unless it was redone from the ground up, which is why i see that being unlikely to ever happen

It would be a ground-up change. That's the whole suggestion. Adding new weapon skill lines to the game, even if they don't add new weapon models, would still require a lot of the same back-end work because it's not like those are going to be added to your sticker book right away, so they'd still need drop tables for sets. I went over scribing already. And if you think all people will end up one build with this change, then you don't really play this game. There are a ton of great options in this game, this change would make a ton of versatile builds both in PVE and PVP.

thats what im saying, it would likely be too much work to implement on the game in the stage its at and is something that is unlikely to ever happen

your talking about literally redoing the entire game with this game, and then likely forcing everyone to respec if they wanted to use other skill lines

at that point there is no class identity, so how would you label your character? your not a DK, but your not a NB either, no way to determine what type of character you are when trying to form a group (because classes do provide some unique buffs/effects to fights right now)

and as noted, if your talking about high end play, the "meta" is everyone going to be using the same extremely specific builds

every tank build would have the DK earthen heart tree, every DPS tree would likely have either arcanist beams or templar jabs for spammables, every healer would have a warden/templar heal tree

it would be just as bad for pvp, literally every build would pretty much have dk earthen heart tree for magma shell/corrosive, or NB tree for assassins will for crazy burst, like imagine everyone just doing fossilize + assassins will on you, people already complain that the pvp meta is bad right now because a large fraction of people are doing like vateshrans staff + master dual wield dot builds

merpins

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Now, I do agree with what you said. I had a very similar thought process when it came with similar suggestions to what I posted, until I thought about it over a few months.

Yes, the design of the game itself isn't suited for this at the moment. Due to the nature of some classes having more powerful dps, healing, or tanking skill lines, and the older classes being less entrenched in that design (as they were designed theme first unlike the newer classes), it does pose balance problems. And yes, classes restrict players in such a way that your theme and choices are what was intended by the developers, and is in an essence, there for balance purposes on top of challenging you with what you're going to play as a build.

However I also believe that it's unnecessary. Balancing would be difficult, and it does challenge the idea of developer intention. But consider that the core developers of the game changed around when the Marrowind DLC was released, and changed the game to fit their vision rather than the original core vision of the game. This isn't much different than that, perhaps more drastic of a change. I do not think classes are a core design of ESO. They're a core design of MMOs, and a template that was followed by the developers because it was the safest bet when making an MMO like this.

I'll also note one thing. This suggestion is not removing a core component of the game. It's removing a core restriction, based on the preference of developers when making an MMO. You would still have all the classes that exist, could still play how Devs intended from original design, and perhaps could have mechanics that reward you for doing that. It doesn't remove a core component of combat, like removing light and heavy attacks, or removing weaving does. That's reductive. This isn't.

Kalle_Demos

No.

HailstoSithis

merpins wrote: »

Before you brandish your pitchforks for suggesting an outlandish idea, let me explain. Class identity right now is a problem in this game. Some have a strong identity. Some don't and just feel confused. Another problem is skill lines. Zos is showing this problem with the next update; they already made a new class last major update, so making another to add more skill lines to the game would be too much. Adding a new weapon skill line would cause a ton more work on the backend than adding the skill line itself due to the nature of having a long-running game with a lot of content, adding those weapons all throughout the game would prove more challenging than making the skill line.

So what does Zos do with all this in mind? Spellcrafting. Well, Scribing I guess. They add new skills to existing skill lines and make those skills variable so you, the player, can customize them how you want. You'll be stuck with the functionality of the skills you get, sure; can't make a backflip skill into a long range attack skill after all, but it kind of addresses the problems I mentioned above. They can add more to what's there, which circumvents the problem... But doesn't really address other problems. Like class identity, or class imbalance, or the fact that they can't really add new skill lines to the game without either a ton of back-end work, or being forced to make 3 at once.

So the suggestion in the title stands. Remove Classes. I've seen the suggestion before and over the last 6 months or so I've thought about it and really begun to felt it would bring a lot of life to the game. Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes. The current classes that exist are just the overarching themes for their skill lines. Nightblade is the theme for its current skill lines, Sorcerer for its skills, and so on. What this change would bring to the table for the developers is it would give Zos the ability to add more skill lines to the game without the restrictions that they had before. They could add a fourth skill line to every class in the game, and could do it one at a time rather than all at once, without making one class more powerful than another. Sorcerer doesn't have a dedicated healer skill line, but with themes, Zos could make one. Warden never got a good plant-based damage skill line. It could get that. It won't make one class stronger than another, you get three choices regardless of what those choices are. You could pick Assassin, Animal Companions from Warden, and Aedric Spear from Templar, or any combination of 3, allowing for a ton of class versatility. This allows you the player to choose your class identity like previous elder scrolls titles, rather than being forced one from the beginning.

Not only would Zos get the ability to make new skill lines for existing classes, but they'd be able to make new class themes without releasing 3 skill lines. Arcanist is great, don't get me wrong. But the fact that we need to wait 3-5 years between classes is a long wait, and it's a lot of development that Zos needs to put in to one theme. They could release a Monk class theme with one skill line available at first, and release more skill lines later. They could release new weapon skill lines under a weapon theme, allowing them to add new weapons without having to add those weapons to all content; sure, you'd have to pick this theme meaning it's not as versatile as actual weapon skill lines, but it would be possible. Additionally, they'd finally be able to add class change tokens to the cash shop, since it would make more sense with the change.

There are downsides here, of course. Balancing the whole thing would prove difficult I'm sure. But with the limit to the skills you can slot on your front and back bar, the fact that you only get 3 skill line choices, it probably wouldn't be too broken. And it's much easier to balance one skill line at a time than a whole class, considering the fact that class balances can kill a whole class. With themes, balance changes can't kill a class anymore. It would bring about a period of time where balance patches become common, and classes see a lot of changes throughout a year or two. More so than in recent memory. But once that initial period of balance changes ends, you'd have a system that's much easier to balance than the current system. Another downside would be the class change token. It would probably be locked behind the cash shop, but I mean... We've been asking for that in the cash shop for years already. I don't see it as much of a problem, so long as Zos allows one free change per character that you already have upon release of this system.

I personally feel that this is how the game should have been designed from the start because freedom of choice for skills exists in all TES games except this game (classes as a choice, not forced).

Carcamongus

I'd say this isn't removing classes, but rather making them customizable, a bit like in Oblivion, in which you could select a premade one or create your own. It's an interesting idea, as I'd love to summon the dead and shoot tentacles with the same character. However, I see a few snags. First, the skills would have to be rebalanced to prevent a few combinations of them from becoming too powerful (read nerfs). Second, this would change a system that has been in place from the game's beginning and which, despite its limitations, works. Third, following from the previous two: can you imagine how messy this game is going to get after such a change is implemented, considering the game's history of serious bugs that sometimes take forever to be fixed, if they are fixed?

In sum, it's an interesting idea, but I think it's too late for ESO to try that. Maybe ESO 2: Daedric Bogaloo.

Trejgon

10 years deep into the lifetime of an MMORPG is hardly a moment in time for such a groundbreaking change. There are millions of people whom have invested alot into getting multiple characters in multiple classes set up, and removing the classes would invalidate those characters even existing for many.

Even class system overhaul at this point would be huge risk.

Shagreth

Another year without a class change token means me not being able to enjoy the game fully. I'll just play for a couple of months then leave the game on the side for almost a year. Quite disappointed with the Gold Road reveal, I mean, I like everything but was expecting a token at this point.

As for major overhauls at this point -- I'd forget it, they won't do it.

Tandor

No thanks, it's completely unnecessary in my view as class identity isn't an issue and even if it was a good idea it would be absurd timing to call for it when we don't know how scribing is going to work out.

Billium813

Removing Classes, and instead making it a personalized combination of 3 Class Skill lines, is just not how the game is setup to work. It would exponentially increase the combinations of builds to a degree where balance would go right out the window.

Instead, we need new weapon skill lines, not a dissolution of Class identity. Weapon Skill lines are the true sub-classes of ESO. New Weapon Skill lines would multiply options, instead of exponentially increase, making it better to keep up on balance and control.

Anumaril

I'm really in favour of this idea, and it's not even outlandish. Plenty of new MMOs are adopting a classless system, and it's slowly becoming the new normal. The same way people thought action combat was odd in the early days... now they say the same about classless systems.

It would fit perfectly within ESO, as it's part of the Elder Scrolls series which never really had classes before. It had "classes" pre-Skyrim, but they weren't what MMO players know classes to mean. It just meant you'd be better at certain sets of skills, but could still do others if you would choose to.

Introducing a classless system could be done in a variety of ways, but in an effort to keep ZOS' revenue stream intact it could be done via spell packs. Instead of introducing a whole new class every few years, you introduce a current-day class' worth of spells and call it a "spell pack".

Mesite

Arcanist was such a success that the developers probably already have the next new class ready for release in a couple of years time. Even my poor neglected necromancer says no to removing classes.

TaSheen

I guess I'm an outlier - beginning with Daggerfall and then for the little I played Morrowind, I played "classes" just like I did in other games, beginning with PNP AD&D. It's just a matter of concentrating how you gear, what weapons and skills you use etc - choosing them according to a "class archetype". So when Oblivion landed, I was already focused on classes.

I like the class structure personally. I wouldn't want to see it removed.

RaptorRodeoGod

Not possible, they've essentially implied before that classes are coded so intertwined with the rest of your character, that they CAN'T do it. Its also the primary reason they don't do class change tokens.

Billium813

"The Meta always wins"

The intention is to give players more choices; more customization! The reality is that only the best Skill lines will be used and the rest will be thrown in the trash. There won't even be players to advocate for those Skill lines since no one is priced into using them! We already have Skills that no one uses and are abandoned. Increasing that to include whole Skill lines that are neglected... just sounds worse.

AScarlato

Really dislike this idea. A lot of builds already are pretty homogenized and I don’t even like using basic skills multiple characters of different classes use.

Froil

merpins wrote: »

"...Here's the pitch: rather than picking a class when you make a new character, you instead pick 3 skill lines from the class themes...

Haven't heard that one before.

Jarl_Ironheart

I've suggested this too before and I wholeheartedly support it. It just feels more elder scrolls than rigid classes. And I don't wanna hear "But oblivion and older games had classes!", you could pick your major and minor skills. They weren't true classes.

Personally I'd love to be able to mix and match skill lines and make a truly play the way I want. Imagine the cool builds and themes you could make. Ice from the warden, fire from the dragonknight and lightning from the sorcerer to make a true destruction mage and this is just one of the cool concepts you could make. Dragon skills, blood magic and daedric summoning to make a Blood Dragon Warrior vibe. Or undead summoning, daedric pets and animal companions for a super summoner. Then they could just release new skills line every year and keep adding to customization instead of trying to make a class with a weird theme like Arcanist or the Warden who has ice, plants and morrowind animals?

Hurbster

Great idea.

Vulkunne

Paramedicus wrote: »

Well... you didnt give a compelling argument on how developers would prevent build diversity from becoming more constrained than it currently is. It seems evident that players would likely choose a few optimal skill lines .. and rest would be used by roleplayers only.

Consider, for instance, if we had nine tank skill lines divided into categories like Crowd Control (CC), Survival, and Support. What would stop players from only selecting the top skill from each category?.. But if we have 3 tank classes, each excelling in one of these areas, we encourage players to make more meaningful choices. One class could be the best at CC, another at buffing, and the third in survivability.

And then we'd be burning builds next to get rid of build diversity. Vicious cycle lol.