Merge the servers to stop the games player population dying

SilverBride

Before they do anything they would need to see a reason to do so. I see no indication on PCNA that the population is in trouble. I can't speak for the other servers but some are just going to be more popular and attract more players than others. That doesn't mean they are dying or need a drastic intervention.

DMuehlhausen

Somebody doesn't understand how the servers work. Everyone logs into the same mega server. Then broken into instances of areas. If nobody is there it's cause they aren't playing on console. "Merging" wouldn't do anything.

Tandor

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Somebody doesn't understand how the servers work. Everyone logs into the same mega server. Then broken into instances of areas. If nobody is there it's cause they aren't playing on console. "Merging" wouldn't do anything.

That part is right.

MISTFORMBZZZ

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Somebody doesn't understand how the servers work. Everyone logs into the same mega server. Then broken into instances of areas. If nobody is there it's cause they aren't playing on console. "Merging" wouldn't do anything.

Yes it would. If certain activities are empty and group finders dont work cuz there is nobody to fill the group this has nothing to do with instances.

Merging = bigger playerbase = activity

Twohothardware

Not only will merging platforms bolster the active player base for all activities but anyone that wants to switch platforms can do so and not lose all of their gear and characters and Crown Store purchases. You’ll be able to stay in your same guilds and play with your friends irrespective of their platform.

baltic1284

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Somebody doesn't understand how the servers work. Everyone logs into the same mega server. Then broken into instances of areas. If nobody is there it's cause they aren't playing on console. "Merging" wouldn't do anything.

Yes it would. If certain activities are empty and group finders dont work cuz there is nobody to fill the group this has nothing to do with instances.

Merging = bigger playerbase = activity

Merging the servers won't fix why players are leaving the game. Each player in general has a reason as to why they leave or stay, for me I haven't left I just don't play like I use to due to the lack of graphical updates to keep up with the times, lack of good animations, many bugs and errors happen some of that can be changed and some cant. Many left when PVP was promised fixes for a very long time and then got lashed at when they asked for a fix, for some the game got boring for some better games came along. You have to look at the company history also Greymoor release was handled badly and poorly Necro wasn't much better fame wise nor was the Breton line of expansions land wise, Elswyre was made controversial.
Again, many reasons why players leave merging the servers won't fix those problems or problem, as to why players left the game as each left for their own reason, till the company addresses those reasons most may never come back and many may try again on a later date and so forth.

Tyrant_Tim

Does anyone else find it extremely offensive that people throw out assumptions about the population on Console? If it’s an EU problem, specify that.

When I play on Xbox NA, there is almost double the visible population compared to when I get on PC NA, and that trend exists in every major city I visit. I was actually debating switching to PC as my primary platform until I had this observation.

I still log into my PC from time to time just to check up on a friend of mine who lost their Xbox account and this hasn’t changed. I’ll tag two screenshots I took from last week that I posted in yet another Discussion about player population.

PC NA - Belkarth 4:00PM PST



Xbox NA - Belkarth 4:02PM PST



Some people might consider PC NA to have a healthy population, sure. One can say that, but in my experience, Xbox NA consistently wins out on visible activity.

Cerbolt

I play on both PSeu and PCeu. I wouldn't say PSeu is dead but there's definitely a quite population dip between the two.

baltic1284

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Does anyone else find it extremely offensive that people throw out assumptions about the population on Console? If it’s an EU problem, specify that.

When I play on Xbox NA, there is almost double the visible population compared to when I get on PC NA, and that trend exists in every major city I visit. I was actually debating switching to PC as my primary platform until I had this observation.

I still log into my PC from time to time just to check up on a friend of mine who lost their Xbox account and this hasn’t changed. I’ll tag two screenshots I took from last week that I posted in yet another Discussion about player population.

PC NA - Belkarth 4:00PM PST



Xbox NA - Belkarth 4:02PM PST



Some people might consider PC NA to have a healthy population, sure. One can say that, but in my experience, Xbox NA consistently wins out on visible activity.

No i also find it offensive but at the same time it is what it is, i find it funny when players think well just merge it all like that fixes it all when it doesnt.

Four_Fingers

If they thought they could get away with one mega server don't you think they would to save money?
The one mega server would most likely be located in the US, EU thinks it gets lag now it would be worse connecting
over the distance and now over worked mega server.

Paralyse

When it comes to PC, ESO does not have a bunch of "servers" in the traditional sense. The game runs on a complex system of phased instances and has the ability to scale the size of those instances, create new ones, etc. based on demand, capacity, load, and many other factors.

Instances are phased based on a wide variety of factors. Some content is always instanced (houses, solo quest areas/scenarios, arenas, EA.) Other things that can affect it include quest progress/status, player level, player "home" alliance, access to DLC content and chapters, etc.

If this system were not in place the game would be unplayable, since tens or hundreds of thousands of players could all be in the same place at the same time. The game seems to do a good job managing to keep this from happening -- outside of Cyrodiil, I rarely see more than 40-50 players in the same room, mostly during situations such as Harrowstorm and Dragon in-game events, or the New Life Festival tent. This can make the world seem a bit more empty than you'd like, but would you rather be killing NPC's and farming nodes with 40 other players in the same zone as you, or 1000 players?

I don't know how console works but I imagine that it has to use some sort of similar architecture.

The dungeon finder delays are not due to low game population - it's due to the game needing to consider a similarly wide range of factors such as player level, availability of DLC dungeons, whether or not you've got any other players grouped with you, quest completion status and player role (tanks are severely under-represented compared to healers and DPS.) The more you (as a player) refine the options - specific dungeon vs random, normal vs vet, etc. the less likely someone else is to be queueing for the same content. This also doesn't take into account that many players run content with friends or guilds and do not use the dungeon or group finder systems.

ghastley

Things to consider:

The more zones get added, the more players are needed to fill them.

The engine distributes players to multiple copies of overland zones to prevent overcrowding. This is probably not the same for Cyrodiil, so PvE and PvP will give differing impressions of population. But in any case the number of copies concurrently running hides the total population from your sample.

Tyrant_Tim

What part of, “this is consistently the ratio difference of everywhere I traveled” is not being understood? I would not have posted those pictures if I couldn’t get on right now and pick a random zone and get the exact same results.

We can debate theories, and use “sharding” as an excuse to write off the visible, but these conversations repeatedly devolve because even when presented with tangible evidence, everyone wants to believe that their server is either completely unpopulated and dying, or is the most populated.

Now, if PC/NA is purposefully sharded into smaller instances than Xbox/NA, that is a problem in and of itself and doesn’t detract from my statement that Xbox/NA has a larger visible playerbase than PC/NA, it only confirms it.

TaSheen

I guess I just don't see why you think PC should care about how busy xbox is?

For one thing (at least at present) there are a LOT of new games for PC. According to a couple of friends who play on xbox, there's not much out there which is similar to what they love about ESO.

Admittedly, I don't have any use for any of the games recently released for PC, but I realize I'm pretty much a loner in that....

Tyrant_Tim

TaSheen wrote: »

I guess I just don't see why you think PC should care about how busy xbox is?

Here’s the problem, the forums are not broken up into subcategories based on platform, and European servers on console are trying to save themselves before they get shut down.

Have you ever played Xbox EU?

Most Xbox EU players jumped ship over to Xbox NA when they saw the warning signs, for others too invested, they couldn’t.

I would imagine this is the exact same scenario that took place on PlayStation EU.

Make no mistake, if we woke up tomorrow and there was a 10,000 free Crowns and choice of any Radiant Apex mount promotion for newly made Xbox EU accounts it wouldn’t be enough to save that server.

There is only one thing that can slow the bleeding, and it would be Cross-Play Support.

The big ask, is for PC/EU players to save Console EU, because they don’t want to feel like they invested all of their time and money into the void.

Tyrant_Tim

Now, I don’t play EU. That being said, I would be willing to undergo Cross-Play to help save them from Oblivion because I couldn’t imagine playing ESO alone.

Xbox EU feels like a private server.

TaSheen

I don't play consoles period. I've never had any interest in consoles at all. If that turned into the only way to play games, I'd quit playing games.

I have PCs because they allow me to do everything I need or want to do: from managing my website business, to writing using WordPerfect, to playing games, to reading this forum, to searching for definitions for weird words I've never run across before, to using Excel for spreadsheets and Access for databases - and a lot of other things from shopping to listening to music and watching movies.

I'm aware many people use their phones as computers. I'm not one of them - my cell doesn't work here at my house, and it certainly doesn't have 28 inch 4k screens to display ESO and other games. Phone screens are tiny. On the other hand, I'm not interested in playing games on a huge tv using a console - I prefer a more personal sized (but still much larger than a phone screen) gaming experience. Not to mention that husband monopolizes the tv 16 hours a day and I really do NOT want to have to buy another one! I didn't want even one....

So no. I've never played on a console, and I won't ever buy one for any reason.

Four_Fingers

A lot of us play our console through our same 4k PC monitor, although modern 4K TVs are just as good.

Braffin

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I guess I just don't see why you think PC should care about how busy xbox is?

The big ask, is for PC/EU players to save Console EU, because they don’t want to feel like they invested all of their time and money into the void.

If that's the case (I don't know it, so I don't doubt it.), it finally comes down to the framework conditions of crossplay changes. That's also the cause of most of the negative statements imo.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Cerbolt wrote: »

I play on both PSeu and PCeu. I wouldn't say PSeu is dead but there's definitely a quite population dip between the two.

not dead yet but yes the population decreased drasticly

MISTFORMBZZZ

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I guess I just don't see why you think PC should care about how busy xbox is?

Here’s the problem, the forums are not broken up into subcategories based on platform, and European servers on console are trying to save themselves before they get shut down.

Have you ever played Xbox EU?

Most Xbox EU players jumped ship over to Xbox NA when they saw the warning signs, for others too invested, they couldn’t.

I would imagine this is the exact same scenario that took place on PlayStation EU.

Make no mistake, if we woke up tomorrow and there was a 10,000 free Crowns and choice of any Radiant Apex mount promotion for newly made Xbox EU accounts it wouldn’t be enough to save that server.

There is only one thing that can slow the bleeding, and it would be Cross-Play Support.

The big ask, is for PC/EU players to save Console EU, because they don’t want to feel like they invested all of their time and money into the void.

THANK YOU SIR.


Also another idea to do not struggle with the latency when enable crossplay:

Merge EU with EU and NA with NA.

Consoles together for first since pc doesnt seem tk have issues like us consoleros 🥲

Elsonso

Four_Fingers wrote: »

If they thought they could get away with one mega server don't you think they would to save money?
The one mega server would most likely be located in the US, EU thinks it gets lag now it would be worse connecting
over the distance and now over worked mega server.

Interestingly, they could run probably two megaservers, one in NA and one in EU, and load them up with XBox, Playstation, and PC and still keep everyone separate such that each platform was unaware of the other platforms. The basic technology to keep players separate seems to be there, so the problem would reside in the fine details, like account and character name collisions, and how well the megaserver scaled up to 3x the population. The databases would be huge. Massive. Bigger than massive. That could easily be the biggest technical problem.

Dagoth_Rac

The names are not a problem. A 4th grader could resolve the names. The problem is the primary and unique database keys. Everything in the game has one. Everything. And they are clearly not unique across megaservers, which is why the console transfer was only into empty databases before release, why PS-NA cannot transfer to PS-EU or crossplay with PS-EU or even send an email to PS-EU, why the PTS needs to flip back and forth between PC-NA and PC-EU, etc.

Your account has a unique database key (Account #678467432543 or some ridiculously big number), each of your characters has a unique database key. Each inventory item in your backpack has a unique database key. Each of your houses has a unique database key. Each piece of furniture in your house has a unique database key. Each of your achievements. Each of your bank items. Each of your pets. Etc., etc., etc. And they are all interconnected in a great big complex web. Item #855356836 is in storage coffer #178137681768786 which belongs to house #367494674674674 which belongs to character #28967896557 which belongs to account #47805750785.

And all of those unique database keys also exist on all the other megaservers but pointing to completely different things. And trying to traverse and unravel and renumber all those links so none of them conflict with each other is a massive and technically difficult endeavor. Can it be done? Yes. But these kinds of big databases that have been around for years and years getting merged is something I have seen billion dollar financial companies with teams of developers and architects in the hundreds, put timelines of years on if you want it done right.

And it is the kind of thing that is easy to mess up and hard to undo. Like how it is easy to add milk to coffee but hard to take milk out of coffee. Once a database is corrupted, it can be very hard to fix because a lot of the fixing depends on a stable consistent database architecture that no longer exists because the data corruption has broken it.

Most online games have dozens or even hundreds of realms or servers, with the idea that you may want to switch realms/servers built in from the ground up. The megaserver design was supposed to remove the need for moving between servers and ESO was clearly not designed with "hot merging" in mind. The idea with ESO is that those dozens or hundreds of realms/servers are abstracted away and hidden inside the megaserver and the server transfers happen on the fly, especially when you "travel to player".

So when people keep saying stuff like, "Just change my character name from 'JoeSchmo' to 'JoeSchmo_PSEU'" it shows a serious misunderstanding of relational database design. Primary database key conflicts are not like having six people in a company named Joe Schmo, and you have to differentiate between Joe Schmo from accounting and Joe Schmo from sales. You do that with unique keys like social security number. But what if six people have the same social security number? This is a much bigger and more complicated problem than a name.

UGotBenched91

From reading comments the game might not be dead but sometimes it feels like it. ESO is one of the quietest MMOs over ever played.

Tyrant_Tim

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

So when people keep saying stuff like, "Just change my character name from 'JoeSchmo' to 'JoeSchmo_PSEU'" it shows a serious misunderstanding of relational database design.

Yet a multitude of companies have solved this problem, and with far less resources. To claim this is an insurmountable coding feat is to show a serious misunderstanding of the field as a whole.

For someone who has spent years of their life studying the language of code, it is akin to grade school math breaking down another’s code.

Let’s simplify this…

“Tyrant_Tim” could currently have the code…
<937592074-9780>

Let’s assume that ESO’s code is so convoluted that in it’s current database,

A basic “Lion” has the code…

<937592074-97800>

Any decent coder could over the course of a week change the name and add a platform flagging system by a few digits to solve the naming issue, while unwinding older code to accommodate the new requirements.

Example being…

“Tyrant_Tim” on Xbox
<937592074-9780-01>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PlayStation
<937592074-9780-02>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PC
<937592074-9780-03>

Obviously this is an oversimplification for others to understand, when you have professionals working on the problem, it might aswell be that simple.

belial5221_ESO

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

So when people keep saying stuff like, "Just change my character name from 'JoeSchmo' to 'JoeSchmo_PSEU'" it shows a serious misunderstanding of relational database design.

Yet a multitude of companies have solved this problem, and with far less resources. To claim this is an insurmountable coding feat is to show a serious misunderstanding of the field as a whole.

For someone who has spent years of their life studying the language of code, it is akin to grade school math breaking down another’s code.

Let’s simplify this…

“Tyrant_Tim” could currently have the code…
<937592074-9780>

Let’s assume that ESO’s code is so convoluted that in it’s current database,

A basic “Lion” has the code…

<937592074-97800>

Any decent coder could over the course of a week change the name and add a platform flagging system by a few digits to solve the naming issue, while unwinding older code to accommodate the new requirements.

Example being…

“Tyrant_Tim” on Xbox
<937592074-9780-01>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PlayStation
<937592074-9780-02>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PC
<937592074-9780-03>

Obviously this is an oversimplification for others to understand, when you have professionals working on the problem, it might aswell be that simple.

The problem,if someone reports "Tyrant_Tim" which do they ban?,not everyone will see or use userID to report,so they'd have to have either make everyone like "Tyrant_Tim_PC","Tyrant_Tim_PS","Tyrant_Tim_XB".I'd merge consoles first,and work out bugs and issues,since PC is still pretty populated,and consoles would be on fairer terms,like PVP,without addons.

Also,game can look deader if you in a different instance than others.You can still hear em in zone,jsut can't see them.I sometimes see less people,or my brother talking and when grouped he near me,then I port and see him and lots of others.Sadly there's no way to change channel or instance,other than porting to someone you're grouped with.

Braffin

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

So when people keep saying stuff like, "Just change my character name from 'JoeSchmo' to 'JoeSchmo_PSEU'" it shows a serious misunderstanding of relational database design.

Yet a multitude of companies have solved this problem, and with far less resources. To claim this is an insurmountable coding feat is to show a serious misunderstanding of the field as a whole.

For someone who has spent years of their life studying the language of code, it is akin to grade school math breaking down another’s code.

Let’s simplify this…

“Tyrant_Tim” could currently have the code…
<937592074-9780>

Let’s assume that ESO’s code is so convoluted that in it’s current database,

A basic “Lion” has the code…

<937592074-97800>

Any decent coder could over the course of a week change the name and add a platform flagging system by a few digits to solve the naming issue, while unwinding older code to accommodate the new requirements.

Example being…

“Tyrant_Tim” on Xbox
<937592074-9780-01>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PlayStation
<937592074-9780-02>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PC
<937592074-9780-03>

Obviously this is an oversimplification for others to understand, when you have professionals working on the problem, it might aswell be that simple.

The problem,if someone reports "Tyrant_Tim" which do they ban?,not everyone will see or use userID to report,so they'd have to have either make everyone like "Tyrant_Tim_PC","Tyrant_Tim_PS","Tyrant_Tim_XB".I'd merge consoles first,and work out bugs and issues,since PC is still pretty populated,and consoles would be on fairer terms,like PVP,without addons.

Preferably they ban nobody solely based on a report, but look into the matter for themselves. And of course it's possible for support staff to see the unique database key of players.

Tyrant_Tim

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

So when people keep saying stuff like, "Just change my character name from 'JoeSchmo' to 'JoeSchmo_PSEU'" it shows a serious misunderstanding of relational database design.

Yet a multitude of companies have solved this problem, and with far less resources. To claim this is an insurmountable coding feat is to show a serious misunderstanding of the field as a whole.

For someone who has spent years of their life studying the language of code, it is akin to grade school math breaking down another’s code.

Let’s simplify this…

“Tyrant_Tim” could currently have the code…
<937592074-9780>

Let’s assume that ESO’s code is so convoluted that in it’s current database,

A basic “Lion” has the code…

<937592074-97800>

Any decent coder could over the course of a week change the name and add a platform flagging system by a few digits to solve the naming issue, while unwinding older code to accommodate the new requirements.

Example being…

“Tyrant_Tim” on Xbox
<937592074-9780-01>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PlayStation
<937592074-9780-02>

“Tyrant_Tim” on PC
<937592074-9780-03>

Obviously this is an oversimplification for others to understand, when you have professionals working on the problem, it might aswell be that simple.

The problem,if someone reports "Tyrant_Tim" which do they ban?,not everyone will see or use userID to report,so they'd have to have either make everyone like "Tyrant_Tim_PC","Tyrant_Tim_PS","Tyrant_Tim_XB".

When typing in a username to report, other games have an option already established a solution.

You add a platform selector whenever typing in names, or you use the solution you’ve already provided, with typing in an underscore and the associated two letters.

Either way, these aren’t things we even need to be debating. It’s not our job as consumers to solve the riddles of implementing the system.

Back to the original topic, as we’ve derailed pretty heavily, I’ll bring us to the original poster’s concern. EU is dying on console.

Cross-Play would be the only way to save console’s dying EU servers.

I have yet to hear of one other alternative solution that would help prevent this from happening.

jle30303

To be honest, games of this scope don't even make much sense as console games anyway. Why play on a platform that isn't a PC? Like, how many buttons do you even have on a console for your various different commands. I was always amazed that Skyrim or even Oblivion could be done on a console.

katanagirl1

Braffin wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Honestly a server merge is just a bigger red flag that will drive more players away, I don't play console but pc population on all servers is still healthy.

Why would a server merge drive players away?

I'm playing on pc too and as long as addons stay untouched (no reason to change anything in this regard, as mods are already completely optional atm) and zos manages to make the necessary changes without breaking the databases (the biggest issue and most probably the reason for not doing it), I'm perfectly fine with crossplay.

Braffin wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Honestly a server merge is just a bigger red flag that will drive more players away, I don't play console but pc population on all servers is still healthy.

Why would a server merge drive players away?

I'm playing on pc too and as long as addons stay untouched (no reason to change anything in this regard, as mods are already completely optional atm) and zos manages to make the necessary changes without breaking the databases (the biggest issue and most probably the reason for not doing it), I'm perfectly fine with crossplay.

That’s exactly why it won’t happen with consoles - add-ons are an unfair advantage.

They may are an advantage, not an unfair tho.

Especially not with crossplay, as every player is free to decide the system they are playing on.

But yeah, if the sort of prejudice you are demonstrating is representative for console players, it's definitely better to keep servers separated.

I'm fine with that too. Pc eu is a healthy and lively environment. /shrug

Really? You think I am prejudiced? The irony.