Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

SilverBride

Ph1p wrote: »

But adjusting Arcs beyond this only makes EA more boring for everybody who can progress beyond Arc 1. The whole point of EA is to find your personal limit and push yourself beyond it.

The whole point of the EA is for players to find how far they can progress in one sitting. This involves starting with Arc 1 and moving through as far as they can or want all in one session. Playing through the first levels every time is part of the process.

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

alternatelder

Honestly, I don't see any issue with Thot, I see an issue with those ice or whatever piles that are spawning everywhere too fast, and also not having any time to rez someone because that stupid laser comes at you and blasts your health down. Thot itself does not feel difficult.

SilverBride

alternatelder wrote: »

Honestly, I don't see any issue with Thot, I see an issue with those ice or whatever piles that are spawning everywhere too fast, and also not having any time to rez someone because that stupid laser comes at you and blasts your health down. Thot itself does not feel difficult.

The ice piles that spawn everywhere too fast and the laser are some of Tho'at's mechanics, so they are an issue with her.

Ph1p

SilverBride wrote: »

The whole point of the EA is for players to find how far they can progress in one sitting. This involves starting with Arc 1 and moving through as far as they can or want all in one session. Playing through the first levels every time is part of the process.

The earlier Arcs should not be so difficult than many can't even complete Arc 1. Some players may find these first Arcs boring but starting at a lower difficulty and having it increase as the player moves through the Archive is how this was set up.

For the EA concept to work for a broad range of players, it needs two things: A low enough starting point and a fast enough progression, so that everybody can try it and doesn't get bored as they progress.

I already agreed that Arc 1 should be adjusted if necessary, because it is an important milestone and otherwise might lock people out of a daily quest. So far so good, we have a win-win situation.

But if you squeeze in two more arcs until we get to the current difficulty level of Arc 4, for example, that will make the experience worse for everybody who can already progress beyond Arc 1 or 2. While playing through the first levels again is part of the design, it doesn't mean people should have to play 2 hours before even reaching the challenging part.

EdjeSwift

alternatelder wrote: »

Honestly, I don't see any issue with Thot, I see an issue with those ice or whatever piles that are spawning everywhere too fast, and also not having any time to rez someone because that stupid laser comes at you and blasts your health down. Thot itself does not feel difficult.

You can control the glass pile spawn by carefully moving, treating it like Maw of Infernal from Banished Cells II when it wasn't power crept into triviality, without the whole lasting forever thing. You don't need to move all that much to avoid the area damage and they only spawn "fast" when Tho'at doesn't have their sword, once the sword comes out the glass piles are even more manageable.

As for the laser beam, it's extremely slow moving early and telegraphed when it starts, so if you need to res someone, run away from them, wait for the beam to spawn then run to res them.

Elsonso

LouisaB75 wrote: »

Nothing to stop you googling the boss before you fight him either. I usually try once before looking up, but if it is my last thread I look up first unless I forget.

Should ZOS be designing games where players need to refer to internet resources to be successful?

alcoraptor

If you nerf the difficulty of the boss in arc 1, you are going to end up with an even bigger jump between arc 1 and arc 2.
There are then going to be calls to nerf the boss in arc 2, because it's "disproportionately difficult".
So then they nerf that... where does this cycle end?

It takes me, on average, between 60 and 90 minutes to complete arc 4, where (for me) it starts to get challenging and fun.
If we add 2-3 more arcs to reach that same point, that's now going to be 120 - 150 minutes. I do not have the time nor inclination to grind through that length of content.

The solution here is not to nerf the bosses. The solution here is to help people to learn and improve the builds.
If you wipe to a boss, or lose all 3 threads, you should have the option to practice it with infinite lives so that you can learn the mechanics.

Even the release notes for the archive say "you're limited only by your preparation, skills, and determination" - nerfing it removes all of the fun.

EdjeSwift

Elsonso wrote: »

Should ZOS be designing games where players need to refer to internet resources to be successful?

Video game developers and companies have been doing this before the internet even existed. I'm clearly showing my age here, but there were the phone tip lines and Nintendo Power, Prima Game Strategies, Brady's and a myriad of other gaming information/tips and tricks sellers out there long before ESO even existed. It's not a matter of not being unbeatable, it's a matter of using the tools available to you.

The more I think about Endless Archive, the more I'm reminded of the old NES/SNES days and the limited lives where you got a "Game Over" screen and had to start from the jump again for a lot of games.

SilverBride

Ph1p wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The whole point of the EA is for players to find how far they can progress in one sitting. This involves starting with Arc 1 and moving through as far as they can or want all in one session. Playing through the first levels every time is part of the process.

The earlier Arcs should not be so difficult than many can't even complete Arc 1. Some players may find these first Arcs boring but starting at a lower difficulty and having it increase as the player moves through the Archive is how this was set up.

For the EA concept to work for a broad range of players, it needs two things: A low enough starting point and a fast enough progression, so that everybody can try it and doesn't get bored as they progress.

I completely agree with this and I posted some suggestions earlier that I feel address both of these. I believe these things would solve both concerns and not negatively affect each other in the process.

• Adjust Tho'at's difficulty in the first few Arcs to be more comparable with the rest of the Arc. This will allow more players to be able to enjoy the EA and the rewards that can be earned through it.
• Put in a save so those that want to progress further can do so without having to run through the first Arcs every time they want to enjoy this content. The save could expire and the EA reset once a week so it doesn't completely change the concept of seeing how far a player could progress.

Lexalious

SilverBride wrote: »

• Adjust Tho'at's difficulty in the first few Arcs to be more comparable with the rest of the Arc. This will allow more players to be able to enjoy the EA and the rewards that can be earned through it.

Tho'at is almost always more difficult than all previous bosses except marauders in all arcs, definitely until arc5-6. It is the "final boss" of the arc thus it is expected to be more difficult. The other bosses are literally just there to offer you buffs. By design they made marauders and tho'at to be the run-enders in early arcs. Personally i don't see why it would need any change.

Also if you take a look at the achievements, there is no unique achievement for playing in arc +4, they simply designed it so average player would go tops arc4, get the loot, reset, be a healthy person.

If you need help or advice the whole community is here. some content takes practice. its always been this way, i don't see why it should be any different for EA.

EdjeSwift

Lexalious wrote: »

Tho'at is almost always more difficult than all previous bosses except marauders in all arcs, definitely until arc5-6. It is the "final boss" of the arc thus it is expected to be more difficult.

To build on this, I don't think Tho'at SHOULD be on par with the rest of the Arc, they're the doorway to the next Arc and should be on par with what challenges you're going to see in that Arc. Arc 1 Tho'at makes you have to be more attentive to interrupts and target priority, Fabeled Enemies become much more prevalent in Arc 2 and you gotta either kill em or interrupt them or you might have a bad time.

Arc 2 Tho'at with the Atronach makes one shots and avoiding ground AoEs more important and has a ton of HP. Arc 3 "trash" suddenly takes longer to die and mechanics are more important.

So I'd argue that Tho'at shouldn't be on par with the current arc, but to prepare you for what comes next, so you're not blindsided when you move onward.

SilverBride

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

MidniteOwl1913

Lexalious wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

There is no way The Serpent and Rakkhat should be in aArc 1. Even with a lower HP they are not something the average player can deal with. They are way harder than Tho 'at V1 and even the marauders who only show up at Arc 2.

what is difficult about serpent or rakkhat? serpent you just kill the totems that pop up and heal through the bursts she does every once a while. rakkhat when its doing the machine gun attack you go to the golden circles which gives you resistance to again just heal through it without even blocking. then you move out of the circle cuz its gonna jump there and turn it blue which you should avoid.
well i realize since they are trial bosses most players might not know the mechanics but really there isn't much else to them.

I followed the mechanics. Rakkhat knocked me out of the golden circle off the platform to death repeatedly.

The snake, full 32k health, magma shield DK the burst killed me repeatedly.

Maybe I need to practice, but with 68 bosses and only 4 showing up in any given run that's not practical. I don't have endless time.

And expecting average players to remember the mechanics of 68 bosses is already a big ask. Who knows how long it will be before I see any given bosses again? Although I'm beginning to suspect that they really aren't entirely random...

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

But adjusting Arcs beyond this only makes EA more boring for everybody who can progress beyond Arc 1. The whole point of EA is to find your personal limit and push yourself beyond it.

The whole point of the EA is for players to find how far they can progress in one sitting. This involves starting with Arc 1 and moving through as far as they can or want all in one session. Playing through the first levels every time is part of the process.

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

Do we have any proof for this?

Or is it same again as with BN and Necrom WBs? Back then the terms "average playerbase" and "many" were abused in the very same way. Zos reacted accordingly by changing exactly nothing.

As far as I can tell atm (based on ingame obversations as well as here in the forums), only a very small minority isn't able to proceed further than Arc 1. Of course these low-performers are (once again) pretending to be representative for a otherwise silent "majority".

Without any proof, that's wishful thinking tho, paired with denying the truth about the own skill.

Lexalious

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I followed the mechanics. Rakkhat knocked me out of the golden circle off the platform to death repeatedly.

The snake, full 32k health, magma shield DK the burst killed me repeatedly.

you should only go to the golden circle when its doing the machine gun attack. otherwise just stay close to center and hold block when its jumping. it always jumps to the golden circle after doing that attack so don't stay there.

and for the serpent, i swear i have never died to that pulsing burst attack before, i just use vigor to heal through it. so i can't really comment any further on that sorry.

bosses in EA don't really have mechanics that needs you to solve puzzles or minigames like some of these bosses have in their actual related instance. im sure you will get used to them. 68 different bosses all of them make particles when they are charging heavies. keep up your heals and shields and buffs. keep your resources up. take your time. you got 'dis

Nilandia

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I followed the mechanics. Rakkhat knocked me out of the golden circle off the platform to death repeatedly.

Any mechanic that might knock you off the platform can be avoided by dodge rolling, blocking, or getting out of the way. In Rakkhat's case, you'll want to block the attack.

SilverBride

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

Do we have any proof for this?

The number of players stating in this and other threads that this is their experience is proof that it is not just a few.

MidniteOwl1913

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

Do we have any proof for this?

The number of players stating in this and other threads that this is their experience is proof that it is not just a few.

Also they are making one of the weekly endeavors about EA, trying generate interest?

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

Do we have any proof for this?

The number of players stating in this and other threads that this is their experience is proof that it is not just a few.

Altogether we talk about around 15 people here in the forums. Go and count them for yourself, if you don't believe it.

Besides that, at least more than 2/3 of participants clearly state, that they have no problems with Arc 1 difficulty-wise.

But yeah, let's do a poll.

MidniteOwl1913

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Some players may find these first Arcs boring but this is not a good reason to make the earlier Arcs so difficult that many can't even complete Arc 1.

Do we have any proof for this?

The number of players stating in this and other threads that this is their experience is proof that it is not just a few.

Altogether we talk about around 15 people here in the forums. Go and count them for yourself, if you don't believe it.

Besides that, at least more than 2/3 of participants clearly state, that they have no problems with Arc 1 difficulty-wise.

But yeah, let's do a poll.

When setting up the poll make sure to frame it as reliably being able to finish arc 1. I can finish arc 1 with most bosses but RNG *must* be taken into account. It plays a that may be more important than skill. Actually, when you consider the visions and verses thing it's it probably is more important.

Can I finish arc 1? Yes, I have multiple times. I can expect to reliably finish arc 1? The answer is no.

It's an important difference.

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

Or is it same again as with BN and Necrom WBs? Back then the terms "average playerbase" and "many" were abused in the very same way. Zos reacted accordingly by changing exactly nothing.

They did actually change the Bastian Nymic quest, they nerfed the Herald Seekers. And the seekers were by far the thing I saw the most complaints about personally.

Galeriano

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

Or maybe it is people who should adjust accordingly? The only difference between tho'at and other bosses in early arcs is just tho'at requires more moving around.

SilverBride

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

Or maybe it is people who should adjust accordingly? The only difference between tho'at and other bosses in early arcs is just tho'at requires more moving around..

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

Galeriano

SilverBride wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

Or maybe it is people who should adjust accordingly? The only difference between tho'at and other bosses in early arcs is just tho'at requires more moving around..

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

If You have so much trouble something is wrong on Your side. It's either huge lack of experience or completly unprepared setup. There are setups that allow You to stand still and take barely any dmg in that arc, while killing the boss fairly easy. Heck I am barely moving in that particular fight in almost full DD setup. What I would reccomend You is to get more than 30k HP, more than 25k resistances, some source minor or/and major protection and major evasion. That combined with some passive healing either from class kit or ring of the pale order mythic will be more than enough defense to ignore mechanics and just dmg the boss.

SilverBride

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

Or maybe it is people who should adjust accordingly? The only difference between tho'at and other bosses in early arcs is just tho'at requires more moving around..

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

If You have so much trouble something is wrong on Your side. It's either huge lack of experience or completly unprepared setup.

It is neither.

Nilandia

SilverBride wrote: »

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

If I might offer a suggestion. If you're moving so much that you can't stop to do damage, you're moving too much. The important idea is to move only just enough to get out of the AOE. Only move when the AOE lands at your feet, just a step to the side so you're barely outside of the AOE, then stay still and continue attacking.

My preferred method is to put myself against the wall directly to the right of Tho'at's spawn point. Then I move around in a semi-circle around the boss so I'm moving out of AOEs while the boss moves as little as possible. Once I run out of room, I slowly back away so I can still do damage while moving and just continue that way.

The boss is melee, so they're going to continue coming at you no matter how much (or how little) you move. Mind your survival, and move as little as possible.

SilverBride

Nilandia wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

If I might offer a suggestion. If you're moving so much that you can't stop to do damage, you're moving too much. The important idea is to move only just enough to get out of the AOE. Only move when the AOE lands at your feet, just a step to the side so you're barely outside of the AOE, then stay still and continue attacking.

My preferred method is to put myself against the wall directly to the right of Tho'at's spawn point. Then I move around in a semi-circle around the boss so I'm moving out of AOEs while the boss moves as little as possible. Once I run out of room, I slowly back away so I can still do damage while moving and just continue that way.

The boss is melee, so they're going to continue coming at you no matter how much (or how little) you move. Mind your survival, and move as little as possible.

Thanks for the tip.

TaSheen

MoonPile wrote: »

In earnest, if you don't like what this is at its core (a grind-fest for grind-lovers) why would you want to do more?

Handwriting on the wall for me was reading the PTS forum about EA, and then the overwhelming number of threads about EA on this forum.

SO not my cuppa. And therefore, I have nothing else to add to this discussion.

Lexalious

if an aoe is getting placed on you no matter what, know that essentially you are deciding where the aoe will land. this opens up the mechanic known as stutter step. its basically moving barely enough to leave the aoe, then you "place" the next aoe right next to it. i think changing the way you think about those mechanics might help you counter them more effectively.

SilverBride

Lexalious wrote: »

if an aoe is getting placed on you no matter what, know that essentially you are deciding where the aoe will land. this opens up the mechanic known as stutter step. its basically moving barely enough to leave the aoe, then you "place" the next aoe right next to it. i think changing the way you think about those mechanics might help you counter them more effectively.

I'll try that. Thanks.