Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

SilverBride

Araneae6537 wrote: »

So if Tho’at 1.0 was nerfed, so would the subsequent versions to not have a HUGE jump in difficulty, and then maybe you delay the marauders by an arc, and then has too much be made trivial for more advanced players?

Subsequent versions should increase in difficulty along with and comparable to the rest of the Arc's mobs and bosses.

As far as being trivial for advanced players, why is that a bad thing but being way too overpowered for the average player to get past the first Arc isn't?

The Endless Archive isn't just for advanced players.

spartaxoxo

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Some players saying it's too easy.

Some players saying it's too hard.

Some players saying it's just right.

I think it might make things easier to understand if people would also state which bosses they fought during their time, and whether they have any prior experience fighting those bosses. Given that the Archive is randomized, it's possible that some of the bosses need to be tuned a bit for a better player experience.

In other words, it's possible that it's the bosses that are the problem (or at least some of the bosses).

I think it's mostly fine and only needs minor adjustments.

In particular, I'd like Tho'at to spawn less aoes on light attacks. And for the tentacles to knock back blobs it lands on so they aren't hiding them from players. I'd also like the marauders to be nerfed (lower damage on light attacks, cap on tornadoes, spawn in place of wave 2).

At this time, I do not currently think EA needs any other adjustments.

I have done every dungeon on normal and most of them on vet. I have some vet dlc dungeon achievements as well. I have flawless and undying song in VMA/VVH. I have done some vet trials including a couple of vet dlc trials. I have completed all trials on normal.

I do not have 100k damage and I do not have trial trifectas.

I have completed almost every questline (except Necrom)

So basically a vet player but not an elite player.

ETA: So basically, I have not encountered an enemy that I need a lot of time to figure out the mechanics.

spartaxoxo

Also here's the PlayStation leaderboard information for those curious. I wouldn't mind seeing XBOX or PC either.

Arcanist Solo



Warden Solo



Templar Solo




Nightblade Solo



Necromancer Solo




Dragonknight Solo



All Classes Duo

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

So if Tho’at 1.0 was nerfed, so would the subsequent versions to not have a HUGE jump in difficulty, and then maybe you delay the marauders by an arc, and then has too much be made trivial for more advanced players?

Subsequent versions should increase in difficulty along with and comparable to the rest of the Arc's mobs and bosses.

Aren't that going too far already? It's battling the whole idea they've had with those difficulty spikes, those are clearly intentional.

Personally, if not the first arch's oomph at the last boss that made me awake again I'd probably won't advance any further to see what's else in there. It's by design, which captivates certain type of players, which aren't divided by terms like "vets" or "casuals" people are throwing around. It very much a combat arena, so it should draw people enjoying combat and challenge it presents, it's pretty trivial and straightforward concept for a game.

The only way I personally see it "fixed" is the new arc, one before current new one that will be faster, easier (overland quest difficulty, no heavy mech bosses) and will count as a daily quest, but it should be clearly marked as a pre-entrance to the activity to not bore actually intended audience and making them stay until the actual activity starts at the very least.

I get it, people want all released content to be relevant to them, but it's already never been the case. And when certain type of players getting a bone once in awhile some other part trying to make the bone's taste different and a shape preferably changed to a spatula to accommodate them, making bone lovers yet again waiting for something at least couple of years, at best.

spartaxoxo

Arc 1 being easier would make me like it more for challenge, personally. One of the bigger issues with me wanting to go back and try to get dig deeper into the arena is that it's such a slog to get into the good stuff. Like...even on my first attempt, I didn't die at any point in Arc 1. Nor was it any of it a nail biter. Twice now, I thought about trying to beat my own personal best and going for the bust. And twice now, I decided against it because I just didn't want to spend that much time waiting for the good part.

woe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also here's the PlayStation leaderboard information for those curious. I wouldn't mind seeing XBOX or PC either.

PC Templar solo was up to arc 11 and duo is up to arc 15

spartaxoxo

deflorate wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also here's the PlayStation leaderboard information for those curious. I wouldn't mind seeing XBOX or PC either.

PC Templar solo was up to arc 11 and duo is up to arc 15

Would you mind sharing what the lowest performing arc/class was as well? I'm very curious because PC has had a lot longer to play with it.

Hotdog_23

For me, I love Endless Archive a lot more than I thought I would have. The difficulty is fine. You just have to learn to build and think differently than the rest of the game. My only 2 complaints are that once you start to get to arcs 5 and 6, the random rounds have too much health to burn through and slow down the speed of doing the Archive too much. Two, I wish the blobs in the Throat battle were a different color that stood out better, as they are hard to see, especially as you progress with so much on-screen to see and deal with.

As far as builds go, I have found a Heavy Oaken build works best. Go with 5 heavy, 1 medium and 1 light. All divines except reinforced chest piece. Lord mundus and generally don’t use my ultimate. The only time I use it is for an Oh sh*t moment. Find the strategic resources CP gives me about 4000 health recovery at 500 ultimate, which is more valuable than the extra DPS. Sure, the fights are a little longer, but I can manage. Plus, if you get and use the visions that increase your health recovery, I have gotten around 6000 recovery. Solo, I go with a sharp weapon. Health is around 30k health, 30k mag and 20k stamina to start, with resistance around 32 to 33k with Resolving Vigor is used. Bewitch sugar skulls as my food.

Stay safe

LouisaB75

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

in a 2 person dps group with the right verses, ive killed arc 1 tho'at in 13 seconds

even solo it takes me under a minute to kill arc 1 tho'at (or faster again depending on verses)

Wow, that is really fast.

It took me a week to get past her and now I can consistently complete arc 1 (unless I get the pillars boss that is broken) and takes me far longer than 1 minute. Or at least it certainly seems that way.

Would love to see a video of the 13 second kill because that is way faster than any of the streamer videos I have watched.

Minnesinger

After tens of runs can honestly say that there is a way to advance further and further. Some part is subject to luck whether the visions, and slightly less importantly verses, favour your build.Secondly, the bosses vary from easy to hard which makes it important to pay attention to the mechanics and to learn from the mistakes. With experience it gets easier to do the right things.

Contraptions

All this bickering is pointless. Content often releases overtuned and ZOS has internal metrics to look at. If people aren't running the content enough or if they're failing too early the content will get nerfed. There has not been a single piece of content in ESO's history that has gotten harder after release. The devs themselves say that they do not buff content after it releases.

The devs clearly intend for people to at least get to arc 4 reliably. The final version of Thoat only spawns at arc 4 and there are achievements just for getting to arc 4. There are "farming style" achievements for completing arc 4 20 times, arc 3 30 times etc. If people aren't doing enough of that, then content will get adjusted down. It's simple as that.

As for me, I find the rewards to be poor compared to the effort and time needed, so I'm not gonna bother until the rewards are increased or the content nerfed.

Shara_Wynn

Braffin wrote: »

On a sidenote: The bulk of players is already very much able to complete Arc 1 and only a very few people, which refuse to improve fail trying. (Yes, I use the same source as you for this statement. Personal belief.)

You cannot possibly know that, no one can unless you work for ZOS and they have chosen to log that information. So it's not very helpful to make such statements.

Braffin

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

On a sidenote: The bulk of players is already very much able to complete Arc 1 and only a very few people, which refuse to improve fail trying. (Yes, I use the same source as you for this statement. Personal belief.)

You cannot possibly know that, no one can unless you work for ZOS and they have chosen to log that information. So it's not very helpful to make such statements.

It isn't possible either to say, that the average playerbase isn't able to complete Arc 1. Nonetheless some people stubbornly say so over and over again.

Braffin

@spartaxoxo

Thanks for the leaderboard data. Here are the actual numbers for pc eu:

Dragonknight - highest 12.4.3 - lowest 4.4.1
Sorcerer - highest 10.4.3 - lowest 4.4.3
Nightblade - highest 10.1.1 - lowest 3.5.3
Templar - highest 9.1.1 - lowest 4.1.1
Warden - highest 10.3.3 - lowest 5.3.2
Necro - highest -11.2.1 - lowest 3.4.2
Arcanist - highest 12.1.1 - lowest 5.3.2

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

That's the state after people played EA for a few weeks, instead of only a few days. I'm sure console will soon show similar numbers.

Either way the the leaderboards aren't even close to Arc 1, not a single one of them.

Galeriano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Nah not all levels of players are reporting the same issues with them.

Yeah they are. It's the number one piece of feedback. I already adjusted my build to add more defense. I am not a squishy dps. Thus far your advice has been "be a tank with 40k hp and let the random bonuses carry your damage.". That is not diverse. That eliminates two of three classes.

An Oakensoul sorc running hardened ward is already a pretty tanky for a DPS build. It's not running around with LOW HP and low resistance.

It's a problem for a bonus add to make the last boss look like a joke.

It's a problem that there is no caliber of player that doesn't attribute how far they go in part to marauder RNG. I'm seeing players that are also high level and high quality players reporting the same exact issue.

It's a problem for build diversity that the general build recommendation is "don't be a DPS".

If the marauder doesn't deserve a nerf based off the way it warps the entire arena around it all levels of skill, eliminating entire types of builds from it, and causing nearly universal negative feedback at all skill levels of play, what on earth could possibly be a good reason for a player to feel a piece of content deserves a nerf? Because I can't think of any better reason than that.

I am not complaining and I can assure You there is a group of people like me so no, not all groups of people are complaining. I can even assure You there is a group of people who finds marauders to be one of the best parts of EA. But yeah people in general like to complain when they find something to be harder and not beneficial for them. We've seen that during one bar HA adjustments era. All classes can make viable setups that work nice in EA. As it stands right now on PC EU almost every class reached arc 10+ solo and necromancer You are suggesting is so bad is actually having 3rd best solo score with arc 11-2-1. Tempar is the only class that didn't reach arc 10 having score of 9-1-1 and that is mainly because there isn't much competition for that particular class and person who got best score didn't continue to push it after securing 1st spot.

If You still die to a marauder You didn't adjust Your build enough and seems like You don't have enough practice to do it without proper adjusting. Me personally after a bit of practice I am taking down marauder up to arc 4-5 in a almost full DD setup (sul xan+deadly+1x slimecraw+maesltrom destro+pale order) with only adjustment being relocation of of my atributes to have 31k HP. Don't expect things will be handled to You just because You don't like the way they are. Adjust accordingly and move on. That is the whole idea behind EA and Youw ant for that to be removed so EA will be just another generic content where You kill few waves of trash trash then boss rense and repeat. You mistake classes and roles and no EA doesn't eliminates any role since it requires You to be all roles at once. Contrary to other pieces of content wher You can just build for damage and burn through almost everything here You will have to take care for Your healing, dmg reduction and sustain.

Being oakensoul sorc is handicapping Yourself in a longer run. You lack utility due to shortage of bar space and at some point it will backfire at You. Fact that oakensoulk sorc is more sturdy than regular full DD setup doesn;t mean it;s sturdy enough.

Last boss is a joke tbh. It's pretty generic and repeatable and when figured out poses little to no threat to the point people are killing it with some of the funniest memes like elemental susceptibility spam. When build properly You can ignore most of that boss's mechanics. If anything ZoS could buff up that boss in later arcs. Marauder is not a bonus add it is a bonus boss. Developer made it pretty clear. You calling it an add won't change the reality that EA is designed with marausers being special boss encounters. And special boss encounters require special preparation.

Tbh I havn't seen that many people who actually went further into EA, wanting for marauders to be nerfed.

General build reccomendation is to adjust accordingly and don't expect for EA to be like every day dungeon. It's acontent where You need to take care not just for Your damage but also survivability and sustain. You scream for build diversity yet You want going back to regular setups that remove build diversity.

Elsonso

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

On a sidenote: The bulk of players is already very much able to complete Arc 1 and only a very few people, which refuse to improve fail trying. (Yes, I use the same source as you for this statement. Personal belief.)

You cannot possibly know that, no one can unless you work for ZOS and they have chosen to log that information. So it's not very helpful to make such statements.

I think it is possible to say that the bulk of adult humans are capable of completing Arc 1, given enough time and training. By extension, most gamers are able to do the same, and that means most ESO players are also able to complete Arc 1.

That is really all that is being said in the quote above, and I don't think it is wrong.

The ability to do the task, and actually doing the task, are two different things. The latter, we cannot know about unless ZOS releases that information.

[prediction] As for the latter, I think that the number of players who have completed Arc 1 at least one time in the year following release will be less than half. This is not a statement of "able to do" as much as a combination of "able to do" and "want to do". [/prediction]

AzuraFan

I'd like to improve in the EA, but the current design, where the bosses you get (I only ever die at bosses so far) are random make it difficult.

I went in today to do the endeavor, and I got a boss I'd never seen before. I tried to pay attention to the mechanics, but was too busy dodging AoEs, which were constant. Not sure how I'm supposed to learn mechanics when I'm too busy dodge-rolling and so can't observe anything the boss is doing. Anyway, this boss eventually leaps into the air. No indication that this is going to happen. I observed carefully on my last life since I knew I was toast anyway. When he lands, he insta-kills me. I have no idea how to stop him from doing that. No indicators, no nothing.

Can I improve against this boss? Not without reading about him on the Internet, which I shouldn't have to do to learn mechanics (I've never had to do that in any other MMO, Elden Ring, anything). The problem with some of the bosses in ESO is that you can't stand still and observe while you're fighting. One of the crutches of ESO boss design is to just throw out AoE's everywhere.

Even if I were to spend time reading about this boss, I might never see him again, because of RNG. So I could be wasting my time anyway.

Not complaining, just talking about my experience.

Because of the random boss encounters that can suddenly bump up the difficulty level to "you're dead, sucker," I've given up on the EA anyway. My intent today was to get the amount of currency required for the endeavor (which I knew I could get within 2-3 cycles) and then continue until I hit the inevitable wall. Just wanted to offer more feedback.

(bugs don't help, either. Isobel stayed alive for one of my deaths and so started fighting the boss while I was still waiting to materialize. That meant AoEs were already happening the moment I was up and had a chance to buff or do anything.)

Braffin

@AzuraFan

That's some frustration I can understand very well. Most other too, I assume.

I really hope zos is implementing some sort of training area for EA someday, so people can reliably train a specific encounter. Having only 3 attempts to learn the boss and having to wait days, maybe weeks if unlucky, until training and understanding of mechanics is possible again, isn't only frustrating but also not the best design choice.

They could also add some improvements to Master Malkhest. If he would give the players some advise how to do a specific boss, he could be actually useful.

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

@AzuraFan
I really hope zos is implementing some sort of training area for EA someday, so people can reliably train a specific encounter.

That's a brilliant idea! They could have a training room in the Endless Archive in which you can select which boss you want to fight. No threads, no leaderboards, no rewards. It would be simply be for players to learn about specific bosses.

The Master Malkhest idea is good too. A line or three about what to watch for would be helpful.

Lugaldu

Braffin wrote: »

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

*sighs* I miss the times when you had no responsibilities in life.

Braffin

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

*sighs* I miss the times when you had no responsibilities in life.

I miss the times when people played a game actually for the content instead of the rewards.

Lugaldu

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

*sighs* I miss the times when you had no responsibilities in life.

I miss the times when people played a game actually for the content instead of the rewards.

Some people play for rewards, others play for a place at the top of the leaderboards, and others just play for the sake of playing. None of the reasons to play is better than the other.

Syldras

So, how many hours does it take to reach arc 31?

DUTCH_REAPER

I have made it past Arc 7-4 and I have zero issue with people asking to nerf Tho’at Arc 1 so they can complete the daily. Doesn’t hurt me or hinder me. Shoot, maybe it will speed up the hours upon hours of grinding through EA. Now an EA hard mode daily Ie ARC 4 completion with extra rewards I think would be cool too!

Not everyone plays the same y’all. And whoever is having a bad day, about to say a snide comment, I hope your day is awesome and you enjoy this weekend. Life is too short. Go out. Ask in zone who is new and go craft them a whole set for free. Spread some joy.

Braffin

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

*sighs* I miss the times when you had no responsibilities in life.

I miss the times when people played a game actually for the content instead of the rewards.

Some people play for rewards, others play for a place at the top of the leaderboards, and others just play for the sake of playing. None of the reasons to play is better than the other.

Sure, people may play for whatever they want, as long they don't become entitled enough to wrongly believe every piece of content has to cater to their personal preferences.

If some players think, EA is a "waste of their time", they should stay out of it. If they are interested in the rewards enough to play it, even better.

But "Gimme my rewards without bothering me with the content, because I deserve." isn't going to happen.

Jaraal

AzuraFan wrote: »

I went in today to do the endeavor, and I got a boss I'd never seen before. I tried to pay attention to the mechanics, but was too busy dodging AoEs, which were constant. Not sure how I'm supposed to learn mechanics when I'm too busy dodge-rolling and so can't observe anything the boss is doing. Anyway, this boss eventually leaps into the air. No indication that this is going to happen. I observed carefully on my last life since I knew I was toast anyway. When he lands, he insta-kills me. I have no idea how to stop him from doing that. No indicators, no nothing.

Step into one of the two swirly round clouds on the edges of the platform when he jumps into the air, and you will survive.

Out of curiosity, are you playing in first person?

Lugaldu

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Duo - highest 31.4.3 - lowest 10.4.3

*sighs* I miss the times when you had no responsibilities in life.

I miss the times when people played a game actually for the content instead of the rewards.

Some people play for rewards, others play for a place at the top of the leaderboards, and others just play for the sake of playing. None of the reasons to play is better than the other.

Sure, people may play for whatever they want, as long they don't become entitled enough to wrongly believe every piece of content has to cater to their personal preferences.

If some players think, EA is a "waste of their time", they should stay out of it. If they are interested in the rewards enough to play it, even better.

But "Gimme my rewards without bothering me with the content, because I deserve." isn't going to happen.

Well, it certainly makes sense if you emphasize this again, even if I don't know where it relates to my last post.

Syldras

I found a posting online about some guy who reached arc 19, taking him 13 hours. How many does reaching arc 31 take? Probably around 20, if not more?

Even if someone has that much time to play on a free day, how is that healthy? You know how many hours of screen time per day doctors find reasonable? 2 hours. Yeah, I know, that's hard to manage for people who use computers for their work, and I'm personally also exceeding that limit by far. Still doesn't make it less unhealthy.

Being able to save progress would be an easy solution.

Soarora

Syldras wrote: »

I found a posting online about some guy who reached arc 19, taking him 13 hours. How many does reaching arc 31 take? Probably around 20, if not more?

Even if someone has that much time to play on a free day, how is that healthy? You know how many hours of screen time per day doctors find reasonable? 2 hours. Yeah, I know, that's hard to manage for people who use computers for their work, and I'm personally also exceeding that limit by far. Still doesn't make it less unhealthy.

Being able to save progress would be an easy solution.

Exactly why I think we should be able to save progress without losing our leaderboard progress.

SilverBride

The Endless Archive is a new feature with some fun elements and every player of every skill level and experience should be able to at least complete the first Arc with a little work. But this is not possible for many, even though they are geared and have good builds and really try their best.

Instead of looking at ways to correct this so that everyone can enjoy it we are being met with accusations that we just want something for nothing and that making this doable for the majority we will just be making things trivial and boring for the elite.

The EA is not just for the elite advanced players and if there is an issue preventing many others from even making it past the first Arc that is supposed to be the easiest one, then something needs to be adjusted.

The elite players that are looking for harder challenges need to push through the beginning Arcs to reach the more difficult content. This is why each Arc increases in difficulty rather than just starting at veteran trial levels. We all need to work for what we want.