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Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak
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PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.
https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.
There is obviously no comparision
Cloak is 10x better than streak in any scenario.
I cloak and I instantly avoid all damage from that moment on. I streak and I can still die unless I chain streak atleast thrice. But I can still die in the process
Cloak is the best skill in the game. It also grants 100% crit chance and major effect on top of that
You 100% do not avoid all damage if you use Cloak and someone pops a detect pot. Nice try.
That’s when you use shade.
Nice try
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ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.2 -
infunite✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
You're legitimately saying that cloak is fine right now, and that it will also be fine next patch after getting free major crit?
I am genuinely asking you to think for a moment, unbiased, and really think about all the benefits and drawbacks that cloak may or may not have and think about how people use it in your experience. After genuinely thinking about it, please say if it needs something to reign in its power.1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Guys and gals rejoice! Your feedback has been listened to and the team is working on balance fixes right now!
ZOS has read your comments and understands that 100% (probably more like 150% tbh) of the playerbase are big fans of the Nightblade class. They are happy to provide more buffs and are implementing them as we speak!
Finally, as a reminder, ZOS asks that in future all posters please pay extra attention to spelling. There has been much confusion about misspellings of the word Nightblade that some even seem to think "sorc" or "templar" is how you spell Nightblade. Crazy I know! Help is on the way Nightblade lovers aka the entire population of ESO!💪💯PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP2 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭One last point, I think the arguments against a ramping cost on streak that came up are absolutely valid in todays meta.
I don't slot a gap closer, so I am not countering streak/BOL/mist.
But I do run very fast, and a lot of other players do too these days while also having the sustain to spam gap closers. In todays meta with how spammable gap closers are, and how little damage 2 pieces of swift costs the ramping cost should totally be re-evaluated.
As an added bonus, removing the ramping cost from streak but keeping it on mist would give sorcs something big which they do deserve.4 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
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PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
What data ? Do you really believe game balance is based on some data
?
Game balance is decided by the rogue
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infunite✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. No one said that there are no counters to cloak, but there have been plenty of reasons given as to how those counters are lackluster. I know no one wants "their class" to get nerfed but cloak is just too powerful. Cloak is too powerful already right now. It's getting stronger next patch. It needs reigning in, and adding a ramping cost keeps it fair so that it doesn't get spammed but keeps its unique identity for the nightblade.
I just hope this gets seen by the right people and the discussion here and whatever data they have are enough for them to make a good decision regarding making sure cloak doesn't get even more out of control.0 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.
There is obviously no comparision
Cloak is 10x better than streak in any scenario.
I cloak and I instantly avoid all damage from that moment on. I streak and I can still die unless I chain streak atleast thrice. But I can still die in the process
Cloak is the best skill in the game. It also grants 100% crit chance and major effect on top of that
You 100% do not avoid all damage if you use Cloak and someone pops a detect pot. Nice try.
That’s when you use shade.
Nice try
Oh. So using a pot or skill is not okay but giving up two slots for an escape is okay?
Counter means one countered by another. Not a two pronged escape. Lol. Like seriously. Use double magicka skills versus a pot or a skill slot?
Nice try.Edited by ShadowProc on July 19, 2023 8:04PM2 -
Shepoffire✭✭✭DrNukenstein wrote: »One last point, I think the arguments against a ramping cost on streak that came up are absolutely valid in todays meta.
I don't slot a gap closer, so I am not countering streak/BOL/mist.
But I do run very fast, and a lot of other players do too these days while also having the sustain to spam gap closers. In todays meta with how spammable gap closers are, and how little damage 2 pieces of swift costs the ramping cost should totally be re-evaluated.
As an added bonus, removing the ramping cost from streak but keeping it on mist would give sorcs something big which they do deserve.
I'm all for removing the ramping cost of streak1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
You're legitimately saying that cloak is fine right now, and that it will also be fine next patch after getting free major crit?
I am genuinely asking you to think for a moment, unbiased, and really think about all the benefits and drawbacks that cloak may or may not have and think about how people use it in your experience. After genuinely thinking about it, please say if it needs something to reign in its power.
I appreciate your tone sir. I will oblige.
Do I agree with buff? Absolutely not. I stated that earlier in this thread. I think it is misguided approach to what they were trying to do. They will see that in testing and will revert for sure. All it did was set off some individuals to go on a crusade because they believe their class is being treated poorly.
As for an unbiased opinion, I hate when people say this but it's relevant here. I have played since launch with 18 toons. I wouldn't play it if it's broken. And honestly only thing I enjoy right now is ganking. I took a long break.
When there are unchecked dks, 40k wardens, etc right now I believe it's fine as is. There are classes and specs that are hard counters to nb. And not to beat a dead horse but when there is a pot that renders most nbs primary evasion and defense that gives you a 15 second window to melt them then yes I am perfectly satisfied with the state of the class.
One thing not discussed here is it's not just the pot. That allows you to tackle the nb. Even after the 15 seconds good players will keep you tackled with skills or whatever. There are still so many things designed or not that pop you out of stealth.
I hate even saying it but things like structured entropy and Elemental Susceptibility really make it hard. Not to mention how many people are running vateshran staff and rending slashes.
Purge is not an option so if they put that stuff on you it's disengage or die time.
Good players tackle a nb easily. As an example when The streamer that is named after a frog finds me it's over. He will keep me pinned no matter what I do.
If The skills and counters are used and most importantly player skill level is good it's GG against a lot of specs. Time to respawn.Edited by ShadowProc on July 20, 2023 10:40AM5 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Guys and gals rejoice! Your feedback has been listened to and the team is working on balance fixes right now!
ZOS has read your comments and understands that 100% (probably more like 150% tbh) of the playerbase are big fans of the Nightblade class. They are happy to provide more buffs and are implementing them as we speak!
Finally, as a reminder, ZOS asks that in future all posters please pay extra attention to spelling. There has been much confusion about misspellings of the word Nightblade that some even seem to think "sorc" or "templar" is how you spell Nightblade. Crazy I know! Help is on the way Nightblade lovers aka the entire population of ESO!💪💯
This post sounds like the proof offered for a nerf in this thread.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. No one said that there are no counters to cloak, but there have been plenty of reasons given as to how those counters are lackluster. I know no one wants "their class" to get nerfed but cloak is just too powerful. Cloak is too powerful already right now. It's getting stronger next patch. It needs reigning in, and adding a ramping cost keeps it fair so that it doesn't get spammed but keeps its unique identity for the nightblade.
I just hope this gets seen by the right people and the discussion here and whatever data they have are enough for them to make a good decision regarding making sure cloak doesn't get even more out of control.
I suppose it is challenging to tell someone that cloak is to powerful when the persons listening knows how to use the counters effectively and often pawns NBs. Cloak is not all that powerful. It is easily fallible even before the counters are considered.
Somehow I am able to hunt and kills NBs, even when they use cloak, because the counters work. The right people, Zenimax, can see that the counters work properly for me and others. There is no problem so no need to fix it.
6 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
What data ? Do you really believe game balance is based on some data ?
Game balance is decided by the rogue
I truly hope so. If they read the stuff offered in here then we in trouble. .Edited by ShadowProc on July 20, 2023 10:41AM1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. No one said that there are no counters to cloak, but there have been plenty of reasons given as to how those counters are lackluster. I know no one wants "their class" to get nerfed but cloak is just too powerful. Cloak is too powerful already right now. It's getting stronger next patch. It needs reigning in, and adding a ramping cost keeps it fair so that it doesn't get spammed but keeps its unique identity for the nightblade.
I just hope this gets seen by the right people and the discussion here and whatever data they have are enough for them to make a good decision regarding making sure cloak doesn't get even more out of control.
How is a pot that reveals any player in rendered distance lack luster?2 -
infunite✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
You're legitimately saying that cloak is fine right now, and that it will also be fine next patch after getting free major crit?
I am genuinely asking you to think for a moment, unbiased, and really think about all the benefits and drawbacks that cloak may or may not have and think about how people use it in your experience. After genuinely thinking about it, please say if it needs something to reign in its power.
I appreciate your tone sir. I will oblige.
Do I agree with buff? Absolutely not. I stated that earlier in this thread. I think it is misguided approach to what they were trying to do. They will see that in testing and will revert for sure. All it did was set off some individuals to go on a crusade because they believe their class is being treated poorly.
As for an unbiased opinion, I hate when people say this but it's relevant here. I have played since launch with 18 toons. I wouldn't play it if it's broken. And honestly only thing I enjoy right now is ganking. I took a long break.
When there are unchecked dks, 40k wardens, etc right now I believe it's fine as is. There are classes and specs that are hard counters to nb. And not to beat a dead horse but when there is a pot that renders most nbs primary evasion and defense that gives you a 15 second window to melt them then yes I am perfectly satisfied with the state of the class.
One thing not discussed here is it's not just the pot. That allows you to tackle the nb. Even after the 15 seconds good players will keep you tackled with skills or whatever. There are still so many things designed or not that pop you out of stealth.
I hate even saying it but things like structured entropy and Elemental Susceptibility really make it hard. Not to mention how many people are running vateshran staff and rending slashes.
Purge is not an option so if they put that stuff on you it's disengage or die time.
Good players tackle a nb easily. As an example when The streamer that is named after a frog finds me it's over. He will keep me pinned no matter what I do.
The skills and counters are used and most importantly player skill level is good it's GG against a lot of specs. Time to respawn.
In terms of gankers, they don't expect to "fight". They expect to kill someone before a fight starts. So yes, if they get revealed, they should be able to die easily, that's the tradeoff, since ganking usually means low hp, squishy, and specced only into damage. If a ganker gets revealed, they have many ways to get out. High mobility, shade, dodge roll cost reduction through their Blur skill, and medium armor dodge roll cost reduction.
But what about nightblades that aren't gankers? Nightblades that are specced to actually fight? Nightblades have a multitude of debuffs, incredible damage modifiers on top of their ability to reach high levels of weapon/spell damage due to having minor courage in their kit, and their healing is incredible as well. Now, on top of that, add the ability to go invisible. Even if someone goes through the trouble of revealing a nightblade, that nightblade doesn't just flop over and die just because they have been revealed. There is also the option to actually fight back. And nightblades are very good at fighting back. So I don't think being revealed means it's disengage or die time. As mentioned, leaving cloak even increases a nightblade's damage.
Nothing in nightblade's skills makes them inherently squishy, as someone mentioned and showed with build editor images earlier, you can easily build a nightblade to be rather tanky on top of it's excellent healing.
I honestly don't think that adding a ramping cost to cloak will ruin a nightblade or a ganker's experience. They can still use cloak, they just have to be slightly more mindful about resources, which isn't a bad thing.1 -
infunite✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. No one said that there are no counters to cloak, but there have been plenty of reasons given as to how those counters are lackluster. I know no one wants "their class" to get nerfed but cloak is just too powerful. Cloak is too powerful already right now. It's getting stronger next patch. It needs reigning in, and adding a ramping cost keeps it fair so that it doesn't get spammed but keeps its unique identity for the nightblade.
I just hope this gets seen by the right people and the discussion here and whatever data they have are enough for them to make a good decision regarding making sure cloak doesn't get even more out of control.
How is a pot that reveals any player in rendered distance lack luster?
This has already been explained numerous times in this thread.0 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭
This has already been explained numerous times in this thread.
as a user of detect pots, they are actually amazing right now at what they do. If you see that red wisp, pop one and you have 15 seconds to make the magic happen. You can even get Major Sorcery from it. Just pop it, walk in their general direction be sneaky or not it doesn't matter. When you get to them, you got them. What are they going to do? Start sprinting away while they think they're being sneaky?
The best use I think is pre engage though. For mid fight, I think the skills will give best results if you can predict when they'll try to disengage.4 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Let me help you out there. He probably struggles as much as you or anyone would if we took the ramping cost off of streak. Just think about that for a second. They both have counters that can be slotted etc but the point is that something that as a skill offers such a strong effect should be limited in its ability to be spammed.
It's just about game balance. Also if cloak became unusable after the change I'd be all for reverting but it should at least be tried.
Yea this. Remember when Streak had no ramping cost and people could chain Streak for days even with gap closers slotted?
Why did Streak get a ramping cost but Cloak didn’t lol? It makes no sense when 2 abilities are similar in function.
I remember when streak had 50% cost increase, mag sorcs used to spam it just like now. yeah it got better for stam sorcs a little but I dont think ramping cost is a good penalty even on streak, I think it should get a reduce travel distance penalty instead.
And again Streak and Cloak are not the same thing. Streak is a teleport ability and Cloak gives invisibility and I gave you multiple examples when I last quoted you.
When you use Streak you teleport 15 meters and stun everything in your way and there is nothing that can make you drop at 6 meters so you get what you pressed for 100% of the time. Streak does what it promises to do, but still if 1 out of 5 runs gap closer you get 4 less players on you. And when you use Cloak, things can break it instanlty either randomly or intentionally, so basically you can waste your resource and dont get what you pressed for.StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
Streak counters are much more reliable. You see someone streak, you hit gap close and be right up on their butt.
I dont agree with this at all !!
1 out of 10 players might run gap closer these days, and because gap closers are generally bad and heavily punishable due to the animation lock I dont see good players run it. that 1/10 are mostly bad players that can be easily picked off when they chase far from their group. if you cant kill them simply use a 180 degree Streak to stun and before they break and turn you are 2-3 streaks away from them and they cant gap close anymore.
on the other hand any direct damage can break Cloak. there are skill dedicated to breaking it, if only one player actively use flare you are done for. when I use potion 9/10 blades that I'm chasing die and that's a huge counter. Now you say running detect pot is a sacrifice for you, I can say the same for running gap closer. I have to give up one skill to only counter one class? thats a bigger sacrifice than changing your pot for 40seconds if you ask me.
But the biggest difference is if one person runs gap closer then there is one that you have to worry about but if one person has active detect pot or any kind of detection or has any possible way to reveal you, they can break your Cloak for everyone.
[edited to remove quote]
Most accept that the counter is there to counter streak and chose not to. But zos gives us the option.
This whole discussion sounds like it stems from well my class identity skill was nerfed so I want others nerfed too. You cannot compare the two. The overall kit is different.
There is obviously no comparision
Cloak is 10x better than streak in any scenario.
I cloak and I instantly avoid all damage from that moment on. I streak and I can still die unless I chain streak atleast thrice. But I can still die in the process
Cloak is the best skill in the game. It also grants 100% crit chance and major effect on top of that
You 100% do not avoid all damage if you use Cloak and someone pops a detect pot. Nice try.
That’s when you use shade.
Nice try
Oh. So using a pot or skill is not okay but giving up two slots for an escape is okay?
Counter means one countered by another. Not a two pronged escape. Lol. Like seriously. Use double magicka skills versus a pot or a skill slot?
Nice try.
Yeah 2 slots for escape is ok as long as it’s nb because nb does not have to time 5 skills to get a kill nor does it need 4 bar slots for defense and 2 for sustain
Nice tryEdited by PhoenixGrey on July 19, 2023 9:27PM0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
I suppose it is challenging to tell someone that cloak is to powerful when the persons listening knows how to use the counters effectively and often pawns NBs. Cloak is not all that powerful. It is easily fallible even before the counters are considered.
Somehow I am able to hunt and kills NBs, even when they use cloak, because the counters work. The right people, Zenimax, can see that the counters work properly for me and others. There is no problem so no need to fix it.
Cloak isn't powerful...... by itself. The power of cloak is more so what it enables and that the thing it enables doesn't have a ramping cost. At least that's the argument I see being made here.
Any experienced player probably kills a bad nb but they also kill bad players in general but I think we're talking about the advantage/buffs being granted to an already well and somewhat overperforming class. If nb was overall toned down a bit I don't think there would be as many people saying much about cloak.
Also Zenimax not doing anything about something doesn't necessarily mean they see it as working. By that logic the horrid servers would go to suggest that they think lag is working properly. That would also go to say that they think templar, Necro, Sorc, various bugs, etc are all in a good place. I would imagine they don't but just don't have the ability or aren't otherwise choosing to get to it.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
I suppose it is challenging to tell someone that cloak is to powerful when the persons listening knows how to use the counters effectively and often pawns NBs. Cloak is not all that powerful. It is easily fallible even before the counters are considered.
Somehow I am able to hunt and kills NBs, even when they use cloak, because the counters work. The right people, Zenimax, can see that the counters work properly for me and others. There is no problem so no need to fix it.
Cloak isn't powerful...... by itself. The power of cloak is more so what it enables and that the thing it enables doesn't have a ramping cost. At least that's the argument I see being made here.
Any experienced player probably kills a bad nb but they also kill bad players in general but I think we're talking about the advantage/buffs being granted to an already well and somewhat overperforming class. If nb was overall toned down a bit I don't think there would be as many people saying much about cloak.
Also Zenimax not doing anything about something doesn't necessarily mean they see it as working. By that logic the horrid servers would go to suggest that they think lag is working properly. That would also go to say that they think templar, Necro, Sorc, various bugs, etc are all in a good place. I would imagine they don't but just don't have the ability or aren't otherwise choosing to get to it.
Other than when pretty much everyone could not use a skill I have never been prevented from using a counter when dealing with a NB.
Just like everything else, I have worked to overcome obstacles in ESO by figuring out how to defend or overpower. After all, PvP is different from choreographed NPC fights found in PvE.
Oh, by the way. We know for a fact Zenimax does look at cloak and the related counters. After all, they just made a significant change to detect potions. That is a clear demonstration they are looking at the effectiveness of counters to cloak and likely an indication they will keep such a design.
3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:
Fully buffed without Continuous or Balorgh. Stats are 27k armor front bar, 30k armor back bar, 4.1k crit resist, 7.1k weapon damage, 26k stam, 44% crit rate, 85% crit damage before Minor Brittle, and decent sustain.
Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:
Tooltip of Healthy:
All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.
Edited by StaticWave on July 20, 2023 3:53AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Other than when pretty much everyone could not use a skill I have never been prevented from using a counter when dealing with a NB.
Just like everything else, I have worked to overcome obstacles in ESO by figuring out how to defend or overpower. After all, PvP is different from choreographed NPC fights found in PvE.
Oh, by the way. We know for a fact Zenimax does look at cloak and the related counters. After all, they just made a significant change to detect potions. That is a clear demonstration they are looking at the effectiveness of counters to cloak and likely an indication they will keep such a design.
Working to overcome an obstacle is not always a sign that things are in a good spot or even going in the right direction. Yes we can always fall back on L2P and I've done quite a lot of it myself but I'm also not about that Stockholm life either.
I certainly didn't quite the game during several times when it was clearly imbalanced because ZOS needed to sell a chapter or generate revenue/interest. This doesn't mean it was a good time for the health of the game even if it did make money for ZOS.
Ok so you are correct they do look at them and I wasn't being clear in my statement. You said the right people were looking at them. Given everything else they have and continue to do in this game regarding balance and performance I wouldn't call them the right people, just people making changes.
Just making a change and writing a note that said hey we're trying to improve things by doing this change doesn't really mean much when you have several other things you're not addressing. Just means you felt like looking at this one thing and making a change for whatever reason.
So no I wouldn't say they are the right people, just the people with power to make change which does not clearly equate to right at all in this case.
1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowProc wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Guys and gals rejoice! Your feedback has been listened to and the team is working on balance fixes right now!
ZOS has read your comments and understands that 100% (probably more like 150% tbh) of the playerbase are big fans of the Nightblade class. They are happy to provide more buffs and are implementing them as we speak!
Finally, as a reminder, ZOS asks that in future all posters please pay extra attention to spelling. There has been much confusion about misspellings of the word Nightblade that some even seem to think "sorc" or "templar" is how you spell Nightblade. Crazy I know! Help is on the way Nightblade lovers aka the entire population of ESO!💪💯
This post sounds like the proof offered for a nerf in this thread.
I couldn't agree more, I'll go further and say the NB buffs on the PTS don't go far enough. Cloak should give Major Savagery and Berserk at minimum. Maybe a burst heal too. Scratch that, definitely a burst heal! And feel free to throw in some more Majors there ZOS, the Assassins Creed games made a ton of money and you can too with these changes!
Also the Merciless Resolve buff is a bit lackluster. I'm thinking like 300 weapon/spell damage per stack sounds better.Edited by WreckfulAbandon on July 20, 2023 4:50AMPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP2 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.
If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).
Cloak is only "hard" to use or bad if you crutch on it mindlessly. Use any disengage tactic and it is way better than any other. Failing your stun incap combo should get you punished.Edited by NuarBlack on July 20, 2023 5:24AM1 -
MetallicMonk✭✭✭✭✭All the people against this have identified themselves as the 2 button nightblades.
Cloak back bar with nothing else defensive, and snipe frontbar with nothing else offensive.6 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.
It's the only Un biased one.
You're legitimately saying that cloak is fine right now, and that it will also be fine next patch after getting free major crit?
I am genuinely asking you to think for a moment, unbiased, and really think about all the benefits and drawbacks that cloak may or may not have and think about how people use it in your experience. After genuinely thinking about it, please say if it needs something to reign in its power.
I appreciate your tone sir. I will oblige.
Do I agree with buff? Absolutely not. I stated that earlier in this thread. I think it is misguided approach to what they were trying to do. They will see that in testing and will revert for sure. All it did was set off some individuals to go on a crusade because they believe their class is being treated poorly.
As for an unbiased opinion, I hate when people say this but it's relevant here. I have played since launch with 18 toons. I wouldn't play it if it's broken. And honestly only thing I enjoy right now is ganking. I took a long break.
When there are unchecked dks, 40k wardens, etc right now I believe it's fine as is. There are classes and specs that are hard counters to nb. And not to beat a dead horse but when there is a pot that renders most nbs primary evasion and defense that gives you a 15 second window to melt them then yes I am perfectly satisfied with the state of the class.
One thing not discussed here is it's not just the pot. That allows you to tackle the nb. Even after the 15 seconds good players will keep you tackled with skills or whatever. There are still so many things designed or not that pop you out of stealth.
I hate even saying it but things like structured entropy and Elemental Susceptibility really make it hard. Not to mention how many people are running vateshran staff and rending slashes.
Purge is not an option so if they put that stuff on you it's disengage or die time.
Good players tackle a nb easily. As an example when The streamer that is named after a frog finds me it's over. He will keep me pinned no matter what I do.
The skills and counters are used and most importantly player skill level is good it's GG against a lot of specs. Time to respawn.
In terms of gankers, they don't expect to "fight". They expect to kill someone before a fight starts. So yes, if they get revealed, they should be able to die easily, that's the tradeoff, since ganking usually means low hp, squishy, and specced only into damage. If a ganker gets revealed, they have many ways to get out. High mobility, shade, dodge roll cost reduction through their Blur skill, and medium armor dodge roll cost reduction.
But what about nightblades that aren't gankers? Nightblades that are specced to actually fight? Nightblades have a multitude of debuffs, incredible damage modifiers on top of their ability to reach high levels of weapon/spell damage due to having minor courage in their kit, and their healing is incredible as well. Now, on top of that, add the ability to go invisible. Even if someone goes through the trouble of revealing a nightblade, that nightblade doesn't just flop over and die just because they have been revealed. There is also the option to actually fight back. And nightblades are very good at fighting back. So I don't think being revealed means it's disengage or die time. As mentioned, leaving cloak even increases a nightblade's damage.
Nothing in nightblade's skills makes them inherently squishy, as someone mentioned and showed with build editor images earlier, you can easily build a nightblade to be rather tanky on top of it's excellent healing.
I honestly don't think that adding a ramping cost to cloak will ruin a nightblade or a ganker's experience. They can still use cloak, they just have to be slightly more mindful about resources, which isn't a bad thing.
Your merging too many things. The question is about Cloak. Not entire kit. The arguments being presented are they don't like counters such as pots.
It's a rogue class. Theyvare designed for stealth. I am sorry but nothing as been offered to justify a nerf. It will only result in a loss of players because of a few that sorry must struggle with nbs. I have no trouble killing them on other classes.
When I am on other classes I focus nbs. I know that's probably messed up lol but it's way easier to kill nbs than dks, wardens, sorcs which make the largest portion of the game along with nbs.
2 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.
Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.3 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
@Turtle_Bot
That is very inaccurate since the OP is specifically asking for cloak to be treated like Streak. Discussing the comparison to streak is core to what the OP is asking for. So mentioning streak is not the same exact thing as discussing tangents.
Please go look for yourself. It is easy to find since it is in the very first sentence.
Way to completely miss my point, granted it's in the second sentence, so it's definitely a bit harder to find.
I'll spell it out for you.
You said, and I quote "Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs. "
well by that logic and the proof shown in this thread on video that sprinting alongside gap closers and ranged attacks easily (and cheaply) keeps up with streak thanks to the availability of movement speed modifiers, then streak/BoL/mist form should have its ramping cost removed too because those counters are very easy to use effectively and extremely accessible which means there's no need for a ramping cost on streak/BoL/mist form either.
Or, and stay with me here, we could introduce a ramping cost to cloak to give it some skill expression to utilize effectively and give a real feeling of outplaying an opponent when it works instead of making all the evasion tools just simple press this button anytime to instantly outplay your opponent.
This reasoning was why streak/BoL was given a ramping cost. It takes skill to use/time those skills effectively to outplay an opponent with them, especially an opponent who has a somewhat decent understanding of the game and a decent build.
This is why it is the same thing when people say that cloak should not get a ramping cost to go alongside its buff next patch, yet those same people will say that removing the ramping cost of streak (or giving any buffs/fixes/reworks to sorc) would be OP.
Interesting.
However, the counter to streak is not that someone can gap close, or build for speed to run as fast as streak but the increased cost. That increased cost to use streak stacks and that serves as the counter.
So speaking to cloak, that skill has a number of counters. Counters that every day are proven to work and those counters provide a real feeling of being able to outplay the opponent. So the rest is moot.
Not really interested in speaking to BoL, mist form, or any of the other numerous skills in the game as I prefer to stick to the topic instead of tangents that can distract and derail the conversation.
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. No one said that there are no counters to cloak, but there have been plenty of reasons given as to how those counters are lackluster. I know no one wants "their class" to get nerfed but cloak is just too powerful. Cloak is too powerful already right now. It's getting stronger next patch. It needs reigning in, and adding a ramping cost keeps it fair so that it doesn't get spammed but keeps its unique identity for the nightblade.
I just hope this gets seen by the right people and the discussion here and whatever data they have are enough for them to make a good decision regarding making sure cloak doesn't get even more out of control.
How is a pot that reveals any player in rendered distance lack luster?
This has already been explained numerous times in this thread.
No it wasn't. It reveals 100 percent of the time but you all just don't want to use it. Just like we choose not to slot a gap closer3