Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak
-
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category
Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.
There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class
Did you get hacked ? This doesn’t sound like you
2 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:
https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.
To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.
Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).
There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.
Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.
My B. Good point.StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.
You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.
The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?
What about all 6 other classes you come across?
Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.
You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?
That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.
I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.
So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.
Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.
Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.
The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.
Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.
NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.
FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.
As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.
Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.
Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.
It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.
And there it is. Your knowledge of nb on display. No heals outside of cloak? What are you two even talking about. [snip] Healthy Offering is a staple on most builds. I appreciate the humor you two have provided as I kill time in the hospital over that last couple days.
Healthy Offering alone isn't going to save you. Also, you have Cloak + Healthy, which all cost mag. No wonder you said your sustain gets pressured when Cloak is countered.
[edited to remove quote]
No kidding healthy offering isn't enough alone. Neither is vigor on its own. I quoted you and the other huy saying nbs don't slot heals outside of cloak. That makes zero sense.1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
Agree with buff removed. But you are being greedy going after ramping coat and deep down you know it and are being ingenuine.2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.
To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.
Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).
There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.
Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.
My B. Good point.StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.
You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.
The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?
What about all 6 other classes you come across?
Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.
You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?
That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.
I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.
So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.
Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.
Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.
The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.
Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.
NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.
FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.
As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.
Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.
Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.
It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.
And there it is. Your knowledge of nb on display. No heals outside of cloak? What are you two even talking about. [snip] Healthy Offering is a staple on most builds. I appreciate the humor you two have provided as I kill time in the hospital over that last couple days.
Healthy Offering alone isn't going to save you. Also, you have Cloak + Healthy, which all cost mag. No wonder you said your sustain gets pressured when Cloak is countered.
[edited to remove quote]
No kidding healthy offering isn't enough alone. Neither is vigor on its own. I quoted you and the other huy saying nbs don't slot heals outside of cloak. That makes zero sense.
If those heals aren't enough then why was I able to 1v5 in the 1vX video I posted? Even if the opponents are bad enough, it's still 5 ppl hitting 1 person.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.0 -
Melzo✭✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »And we did the test. Actually the difference between sorc and NB in the same gear setup is stunning. I may be a bit rusty since I haven't played sorc for 6 years in PvP and EU to NA ping is not that good but the difference is there, NB is really superior class to sorc, it's beyond cloak as it plays marginal role in duel but overall feeling is overwhelming.
@Tyrant_Tim thanks for nice and good testing
No problem, it was fun. To better illustrate the power of a gap closer vs Streak, here’s a video of one of our fights where you can see just how easily I jumped to your Streak and continued applying pressure.
https://youtu.be/mOzYrJZeo48
Even without Cloak for most of the fight, the power of Nightblade is ridiculous, and the class is even more oppressive when it’s not being countered by Radiant Magelight or Detect Pots, for a Template Sorcerer to have ramping costs on Streak and still not stand a remote chance against a basic Template Nightblade, it’s clear the class is heavily loaded, and can afford like treatment on it’s Cloak.
That's funny. It's how to play that the sorcerer is a class that relies on light armor only and does what it does by pressing the shield and teleport. You have as many as two skills that allow you to immobilize the enemy. And stun. You have a whole set of skills that allows you to kite the enemy. NB didn't use invisibility at all. Stupidly spammed with one button. With such game nb super hero.
I understand that the nb is stronger than the magsorc, but there's nothing to compare here.. Edited by Melzo on July 17, 2023 3:20AM3 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭He had never heard of the block.
Why are you insulting the guy I was fighting, or even making references to me in this thread.
I tapped out of the conversation, people don’t want back and forth engagement, it’s only “I’m right, you’re wrong” and I’m not here for that. So if you want to have a debate about how things actually work, with proof in testing, not inserting your opinion and stating it’s fact, feel free to message me, instead of referencing my post with an insult to the guy who was boots on the ground, testing.Edited by Tyrant_Tim on July 17, 2023 4:05AM1 -
Melzo✭✭✭✭I didn't insult anyone. I said that the sorcerer does not know how to play. I just don't understand who you played. If you are nb then I said that the gameplay is as simple as possible from which there is an oncoming block or evasion or immobilization. I wrote stupidly or as simply as possible - this is a synonym in this context. The whole point of my post is that you show not irrelevant arguments. Comparing two classes in which the enemy does not even know how to play is stupid.
I can go to pts dk and you are a necromancer. I will lose because there I have a ping of 350 and you can even beat your head on the keyboard and win and then say that the necromancer is the strongest class.Edited by Melzo on July 17, 2023 4:16AM2 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I didn't insult anyone. I said that the sorcerer does not know how to play. I just don't understand who you played. If you are nb then I said that the gameplay is as simple as possible from which there is an oncoming block or evasion or immobilization. I wrote stupidly or as simply as possible - this is a synonym in this context. The whole point of my post is that you show not irrelevant arguments. Comparing two classes in which the enemy does not even know how to play is stupid.
I can go to pts dk and you are a necromancer. I will lose because there I have a ping of 350 and you can even beat your head on the keyboard and win and then say that the necromancer is the strongest class.
What we were debating in that clip was the ease with which a player has to counter Streak. Which I did with ease using Ambush, as shown.
You must have skipped past the entire conversation about the effectiveness of Streak vs Cloak when you immediately jumped to insult the guy by saying he doesn’t know how to play the game when he has over 2,000cp and hundreds of days played.
You could be the best player in the game, it wouldn’t matter, as long as my cursor is on you and I CC broke immediately, any gap closer in the game would reach you, while also doing any number of additional benefits depending on which ability you chose, there are many of them.
Do me a favor and stop referencing my posts from days ago out of context after I’ve stated I’m done with this thread.
If you want to have a conversation about my opinions of the state of Cloak, message me.1 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
And there its is again. After arguing cloak needs to have ramping coat like streak, after comparing streak to cloak, now you say sorcs shouldn't have ramp cost and she be buffed.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 17, 2023 12:45PM0 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »He had never heard of the block.
Why are you insulting the guy I was fighting, or even making references to me in this thread.
I tapped out of the conversation, people don’t want back and forth engagement, it’s only “I’m right, you’re wrong” and I’m not here for that. So if you want to have a debate about how things actually work, with proof in testing, not inserting your opinion and stating it’s fact, feel free to message me, instead of referencing my post with an insult to the guy who was boots on the ground, testing.
That's his point. You have posted any proof. And all the nerf cries in here have stated is your wrong and I'm right from both sides.
Zos doesn't agree. The burden of proof is to prove it needs a nerf. Which has not even close to been accomplished.
Leave cloak as is Zos plz. All this has done is to get the pitchforks out with no rational reasoning0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
And there its is again. After arguing cloak needs to have ramping coat like streak, after comparing streak to cloak, now you say sorcs shouldn't have ramp cost and she be buffed.
[snip]
[snip]
It's never been about "wanting others to have the same issue" it's been about bringing attention to clear and obvious imbalances within the game.
[snip] You cannot have it both ways, either NB gets brought down to the power level of other classes or other classes are allowed to be brought up to NBs level.
Myself and many other sorc mains tried the other approach that many have suggested of asking for buffs to sorc, especially back in U36 when sorc was in a completely unplayable state for PvP. But all those threads got was constant crying from NBs that constantly harassed and derailed those threads about sorc claiming it was still completely overpowered and NB was still completely unplayable like it was still 2018/2019 and subsequently got those threads derailed and completely ignored by the devs who decided that the only class that was completely dependent on overpowered procs in PvP to attempt to keep up with other classes was "fine as is" despite clear evidence that it was not.
It has been made abundantly clear over the past year that sorc mains are not allowed to ask for buffs/fixes/reworks/QoL improvements to their class and are not welcome here on the forums, the NBs that flood the forums have ensured this with complete harassment and derailment of any and all sorc threads, even those that asked for simple buffs like updated passives or a more reliable heal. What did you expect to happen if sorc mains aren't allowed to ask for fixes, buffs or QoL improvements to their class without being harassed like that? They are naturally going to compare their class to the other similar class that is supposed to be "high damage for low survivability" and ask for nerfs to that other class instead.
Maybe if people like yourself (not specifically you, but people like you) had stayed off sorc threads (instead of harassing and derailing them to no end) that simply asked for fair buffs, fixes and reworks to sorcs to make the class kit cohesive, synergistic and playable as a class kit and not just as a set of support abilities for a generic proc build that abuses the latest overpowered proc sets that can be ran just as effectively on any other class, there wouldn't be this huge comparison with NBs now, especially since the devs seem intent on making an already overtuned class in PvP even stronger in PvP under the blatantly false guise of "helping it in PvE".
If ZOS truly wanted to buff NBs for PvE content without buffing them even further in PvP, they would make a bunch of improvements that are tied to the "damage against monsters" or "while battle spirit is not active" clauses instead of generic flat buffs that are active everywhere.
They could have easily moved the unique 10% damage from concealed to the base morph, but given it the clause that its only applied when battle spirit is not active or only when dealing damage to monsters.
They could have instead tied their latest proposed buff to cloak granting major prophecy/savagery (a buff that NB did not need) to only work when battle spirit is not active instead of leaving it active at all times on both bars for having cloak slotted on 1 bar, essentially giving NB a free bar slot in PvP.
There are countless ways ZOS could have easily buffed NBs for PvE only, like they claimed they were doing for this patch, but instead they buffed it for both PvE and PvP when it was already one of the top classes in PvP. If you're angry about balance suggestions for NB being brought up, maybe ask ZOS to focus their buffs where NB needs it (for PvE only) instead of generic flat buffs that apply everywhere and will only serve to increase the call for much bigger nerfs later on.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 17, 2023 12:48PM7 -
infunite✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
And there its is again. After arguing cloak needs to have ramping coat like streak, after comparing streak to cloak, now you say sorcs shouldn't have ramp cost and she be buffed.
[snip]
[snip]
It's never been about "wanting others to have the same issue" it's been about bringing attention to clear and obvious imbalances within the game.
[snip] You cannot have it both ways, either NB gets brought down to the power level of other classes or other classes are allowed to be brought up to NBs level.
Myself and many other sorc mains tried the other approach that many have suggested of asking for buffs to sorc, especially back in U36 when sorc was in a completely unplayable state for PvP. But all those threads got was constant crying from NBs that constantly harassed and derailed those threads about sorc claiming it was still completely overpowered and NB was still completely unplayable like it was still 2018/2019 and subsequently got those threads derailed and completely ignored by the devs who decided that the only class that was completely dependent on overpowered procs in PvP to attempt to keep up with other classes was "fine as is" despite clear evidence that it was not.
It has been made abundantly clear over the past year that sorc mains are not allowed to ask for buffs/fixes/reworks/QoL improvements to their class and are not welcome here on the forums, the NBs that flood the forums have ensured this with complete harassment and derailment of any and all sorc threads, even those that asked for simple buffs like updated passives or a more reliable heal. What did you expect to happen if sorc mains aren't allowed to ask for fixes, buffs or QoL improvements to their class without being harassed like that? They are naturally going to compare their class to the other similar class that is supposed to be "high damage for low survivability" and ask for nerfs to that other class instead.
Maybe if people like yourself (not specifically you, but people like you) had stayed off sorc threads (instead of harassing and derailing them to no end) that simply asked for fair buffs, fixes and reworks to sorcs to make the class kit cohesive, synergistic and playable as a class kit and not just as a set of support abilities for a generic proc build that abuses the latest overpowered proc sets that can be ran just as effectively on any other class, there wouldn't be this huge comparison with NBs now, especially since the devs seem intent on making an already overtuned class in PvP even stronger in PvP under the blatantly false guise of "helping it in PvE".
If ZOS truly wanted to buff NBs for PvE content without buffing them even further in PvP, they would make a bunch of improvements that are tied to the "damage against monsters" or "while battle spirit is not active" clauses instead of generic flat buffs that are active everywhere.
They could have easily moved the unique 10% damage from concealed to the base morph, but given it the clause that its only applied when battle spirit is not active or only when dealing damage to monsters.
They could have instead tied their latest proposed buff to cloak granting major prophecy/savagery (a buff that NB did not need) to only work when battle spirit is not active instead of leaving it active at all times on both bars for having cloak slotted on 1 bar, essentially giving NB a free bar slot in PvP.
There are countless ways ZOS could have easily buffed NBs for PvE only, like they claimed they were doing for this patch, but instead they buffed it for both PvE and PvP when it was already one of the top classes in PvP. If you're angry about balance suggestions for NB being brought up, maybe ask ZOS to focus their buffs where NB needs it (for PvE only) instead of generic flat buffs that apply everywhere and will only serve to increase the call for much bigger nerfs later on.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]
I wholeheartedly agree. Battle Spirit needs to be used far more than it currently is. It doesn't make sense to expect balance between PVP and PVE without specifically catering to the two unique game modes. Unless stated by devs, it doesn't seem like it's a logistical issue to do this, as seen with sets like Rallying Cry, Vicious Death, etc. where the sets' abilities are active in PVP areas only, and your examples as well.3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
And there its is again. After arguing cloak needs to have ramping coat like streak, after comparing streak to cloak, now you say sorcs shouldn't have ramp cost and she be buffed.
[snip]
[snip]
It's never been about "wanting others to have the same issue" it's been about bringing attention to clear and obvious imbalances within the game.
[snip] You cannot have it both ways, either NB gets brought down to the power level of other classes or other classes are allowed to be brought up to NBs level.
Myself and many other sorc mains tried the other approach that many have suggested of asking for buffs to sorc, especially back in U36 when sorc was in a completely unplayable state for PvP. But all those threads got was constant crying from NBs that constantly harassed and derailed those threads about sorc claiming it was still completely overpowered and NB was still completely unplayable like it was still 2018/2019 and subsequently got those threads derailed and completely ignored by the devs who decided that the only class that was completely dependent on overpowered procs in PvP to attempt to keep up with other classes was "fine as is" despite clear evidence that it was not.
It has been made abundantly clear over the past year that sorc mains are not allowed to ask for buffs/fixes/reworks/QoL improvements to their class and are not welcome here on the forums, the NBs that flood the forums have ensured this with complete harassment and derailment of any and all sorc threads, even those that asked for simple buffs like updated passives or a more reliable heal. What did you expect to happen if sorc mains aren't allowed to ask for fixes, buffs or QoL improvements to their class without being harassed like that? They are naturally going to compare their class to the other similar class that is supposed to be "high damage for low survivability" and ask for nerfs to that other class instead.
Maybe if people like yourself (not specifically you, but people like you) had stayed off sorc threads (instead of harassing and derailing them to no end) that simply asked for fair buffs, fixes and reworks to sorcs to make the class kit cohesive, synergistic and playable as a class kit and not just as a set of support abilities for a generic proc build that abuses the latest overpowered proc sets that can be ran just as effectively on any other class, there wouldn't be this huge comparison with NBs now, especially since the devs seem intent on making an already overtuned class in PvP even stronger in PvP under the blatantly false guise of "helping it in PvE".
If ZOS truly wanted to buff NBs for PvE content without buffing them even further in PvP, they would make a bunch of improvements that are tied to the "damage against monsters" or "while battle spirit is not active" clauses instead of generic flat buffs that are active everywhere.
They could have easily moved the unique 10% damage from concealed to the base morph, but given it the clause that its only applied when battle spirit is not active or only when dealing damage to monsters.
They could have instead tied their latest proposed buff to cloak granting major prophecy/savagery (a buff that NB did not need) to only work when battle spirit is not active instead of leaving it active at all times on both bars for having cloak slotted on 1 bar, essentially giving NB a free bar slot in PvP.
There are countless ways ZOS could have easily buffed NBs for PvE only, like they claimed they were doing for this patch, but instead they buffed it for both PvE and PvP when it was already one of the top classes in PvP. If you're angry about balance suggestions for NB being brought up, maybe ask ZOS to focus their buffs where NB needs it (for PvE only) instead of generic flat buffs that apply everywhere and will only serve to increase the call for much bigger nerfs later on.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]
Precisely this. I do believe NB players make up the majority of the forums, followed by Sorc, so clashing between these two is bound to happen.
What I don’t like is how NB mains pretend their class is still weak in PvP when it’s in fact one of the best classes in PvP. Look at the top tier players for an easy insight. Most of them agree that NB is currently 1-2 tiers above Sorc.
Using my anecdotal evidence, I’ve heard many NB mains who wanted to try stamsorc and the first thing they tell me is always “man how do you heal on this class? I feel so squishy”. I’m not surprised at all lol. Going from a top-tier class with one of the best burst heals in the game to a class with mediocre HoTs and non existent burst heal will feel like that 🤣
So either buff Sorc, or nerf NB in PvP. We don’t need anymore NB buffs for PvPPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc3 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category
Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.
There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class
Did you get hacked ? This doesn’t sound like you
What part doesn’t sound like me?
NB is still the strongest class in the game since beginning of time lol and Nb mains don’t acknowledge it or know how to play their class
Now what I don’t agree is zos nerfing BOL or streak when bow proc hits so hard. Or zos not reducing cost of streak when cloak does not have ramping cost.
If you nerf nb skills we have 2 useless classes sorc and nb. What good does that do for anyone ?
I have always maintained strong classes are good for the game as long as they are class skills requiring actual button presses rather than the afk sorc we have today.
Edited by PhoenixGrey on July 17, 2023 3:11PM1 -
Foxtrot39✭✭✭✭Like some would say "Good game balance is like a good bra, it both hold up the weak and maintain the strong. It doesn't drag down anything"
We have the middle part alright but need the former to be expanded upon0 -
KingLewie_III✭✭✭Seems like anytime this topic is brought up, you’ve got two sides of the argument. The side that acts like there’s no counter to stealth at all, and the side that acts like Nightblade is somehow crippled without being able to perma-cloak, as if it doesn’t have ridiculous damage, great mobility, and a solid healing kit now with the burst heal.0
-
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category
Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.
There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class
Did you get hacked ? This doesn’t sound like you
What part doesn’t sound like me?
NB is still the strongest class in the game since beginning of time lol and Nb mains don’t acknowledge it or know how to play their class
Now what I don’t agree is zos nerfing BOL or streak when bow proc hits so hard. Or zos not reducing cost of streak when cloak does not have ramping cost.
If you nerf nb skills we have 2 useless classes sorc and nb. What good does that do for anyone ?
I have always maintained strong classes are good for the game as long as they are class skills requiring actual button presses rather than the afk sorc we have today.
I assure you nb will be fine with a ramp up cost on cloak. Nb has access to more survival tools outside of cloak than sorc does outside of streak2 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.
No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.
The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.
And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?
Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.
You still don't get it do you?
Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.
You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.
No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.
But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?
But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.
And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.
It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.
I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.
Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.
It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.
Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.
The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.
My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.
I could say the exact same thing about streak though. How many comments on this thread alone, let alone all the other threads about sorc, have been all about streak being "un-counterable" (despite clear video evidence that proves the opposite) as the main reason commenters use to keep sorcs from getting any significant fixes/QoL improvements/reworks/buffs. Yet streak still has its ramping cost and isn't receiving a buff to it next patch either.
And there its is again. After arguing cloak needs to have ramping coat like streak, after comparing streak to cloak, now you say sorcs shouldn't have ramp cost and she be buffed.
[snip]
[snip]
It's never been about "wanting others to have the same issue" it's been about bringing attention to clear and obvious imbalances within the game.
[snip] You cannot have it both ways, either NB gets brought down to the power level of other classes or other classes are allowed to be brought up to NBs level.
Myself and many other sorc mains tried the other approach that many have suggested of asking for buffs to sorc, especially back in U36 when sorc was in a completely unplayable state for PvP. But all those threads got was constant crying from NBs that constantly harassed and derailed those threads about sorc claiming it was still completely overpowered and NB was still completely unplayable like it was still 2018/2019 and subsequently got those threads derailed and completely ignored by the devs who decided that the only class that was completely dependent on overpowered procs in PvP to attempt to keep up with other classes was "fine as is" despite clear evidence that it was not.
It has been made abundantly clear over the past year that sorc mains are not allowed to ask for buffs/fixes/reworks/QoL improvements to their class and are not welcome here on the forums, the NBs that flood the forums have ensured this with complete harassment and derailment of any and all sorc threads, even those that asked for simple buffs like updated passives or a more reliable heal. What did you expect to happen if sorc mains aren't allowed to ask for fixes, buffs or QoL improvements to their class without being harassed like that? They are naturally going to compare their class to the other similar class that is supposed to be "high damage for low survivability" and ask for nerfs to that other class instead.
Maybe if people like yourself (not specifically you, but people like you) had stayed off sorc threads (instead of harassing and derailing them to no end) that simply asked for fair buffs, fixes and reworks to sorcs to make the class kit cohesive, synergistic and playable as a class kit and not just as a set of support abilities for a generic proc build that abuses the latest overpowered proc sets that can be ran just as effectively on any other class, there wouldn't be this huge comparison with NBs now, especially since the devs seem intent on making an already overtuned class in PvP even stronger in PvP under the blatantly false guise of "helping it in PvE".
If ZOS truly wanted to buff NBs for PvE content without buffing them even further in PvP, they would make a bunch of improvements that are tied to the "damage against monsters" or "while battle spirit is not active" clauses instead of generic flat buffs that are active everywhere.
They could have easily moved the unique 10% damage from concealed to the base morph, but given it the clause that its only applied when battle spirit is not active or only when dealing damage to monsters.
They could have instead tied their latest proposed buff to cloak granting major prophecy/savagery (a buff that NB did not need) to only work when battle spirit is not active instead of leaving it active at all times on both bars for having cloak slotted on 1 bar, essentially giving NB a free bar slot in PvP.
There are countless ways ZOS could have easily buffed NBs for PvE only, like they claimed they were doing for this patch, but instead they buffed it for both PvE and PvP when it was already one of the top classes in PvP. If you're angry about balance suggestions for NB being brought up, maybe ask ZOS to focus their buffs where NB needs it (for PvE only) instead of generic flat buffs that apply everywhere and will only serve to increase the call for much bigger nerfs later on.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]
Precisely this. I do believe NB players make up the majority of the forums, followed by Sorc, so clashing between these two is bound to happen.
What I don’t like is how NB mains pretend their class is still weak in PvP when it’s in fact one of the best classes in PvP. Look at the top tier players for an easy insight. Most of them agree that NB is currently 1-2 tiers above Sorc.
Using my anecdotal evidence, I’ve heard many NB mains who wanted to try stamsorc and the first thing they tell me is always “man how do you heal on this class? I feel so squishy”. I’m not surprised at all lol. Going from a top-tier class with one of the best burst heals in the game to a class with mediocre HoTs and non existent burst heal will feel like that 🤣
So either buff Sorc, or nerf NB in PvP. We don’t need anymore NB buffs for PvP
Where is all this nb mains say they are weak? Now your just making stuff up. The majority aren't asking for buffs. We are defending nerfs. Nice try2 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.5 -
Shepoffire✭✭✭DrNukenstein wrote: »Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.
This. I'm all for the ramping costm as long as it last 5 seconds and it cant be broken or grants snare/ immobilization immunity1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 18, 2023 1:21PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭Shepoffire wrote: »DrNukenstein wrote: »Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.
This. I'm all for the ramping costm as long as it last 5 seconds and it cant be broken or grants snare/ immobilization immunity
LMAO
0 -
Shepoffire✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »DrNukenstein wrote: »Ramping cost needs to be paired with the first second being unbreakable, in addition there's an argument for making it possible to roll or sprint while cloaked if a ramping cost gets introduced.
Most arguments against a ramping cost are tied to how easy it is to break cloak. Most arguments for a ramping cost ignore that almost anything other than self only buffs (not heals, except rally and sated frenzy) and walking will take you out of cloak.
This. I'm all for the ramping costm as long as it last 5 seconds and it cant be broken or grants snare/ immobilization immunity
LMAO
Or give it the stun like it does in pve0 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
No one doubts that you know how to play the game and your preferred classes, but calling for nerfs on other classes/sets because you believe their kits are so powerful that they trump your skill doesn't make you look skillful.
No one denies that Stam Sorc is a hard class, but it still has it's extreme high performance outliers. I see more stam sorcs going off the rails and 1v11ing in BGs than I do DKs. Does that mean stam sorc is busted? No. But it does mean, that the potential for skill expression is so powerful that sorc is a lot stronger than it looks on paper in talented hands.
Nightblade is similar, the potential for high performance through skill expression is there and that's why people like the class. That said, it's not the static 4k per cloak cost.8 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Not trying to bait, but seriously if you play that good then why ask for so many nerfs. It hurts your credibility.
Great players don't need to say they are great players. Just saying. And they certainly don't ask for other classes to be brought down farther.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 18, 2023 1:21PM3 -
Shepoffire✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Shepoffire wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.
And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP
Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg
Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.
Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.
Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]
Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.
My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.
Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.
[edited to remove quote]
Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?
If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.
Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.
You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?
The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.
I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.
This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.
I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.
Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.
Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.
Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?
It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.
Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]
[snip]
Because I am lol. Not the best, but very experienced in my class and experienced enough to talk about PvP. Idc if you think otherwise, there are plenty of people on the forums who can confirm that.
If you or anyone doubt, I’m always dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and would love a challenge. I also do BGs so queue up too while you’re at it.
As much as I would be delighted to. I am on console. Just leaves me wondering if you're so experienced, how do you struggle with fighting cloaking nightblades with the counters provided. All you need is camo hunter it's not that hard
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 18, 2023 1:23PM2 -
Zastrix✭✭✭✭✭Maybe if cloaked actually worked rather than constantly breaking I'd maybe give it a thought (I wouldn't) but with how it's working on live, nah110-114k Stage 4 Vamprie Magblade u39
Aldmeri Dominion did nothing wrong in Shadowfen.3 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category
Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.
There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class
Did you get hacked ? This doesn’t sound like you
What part doesn’t sound like me?
NB is still the strongest class in the game since beginning of time lol and Nb mains don’t acknowledge it or know how to play their class
Now what I don’t agree is zos nerfing BOL or streak when bow proc hits so hard. Or zos not reducing cost of streak when cloak does not have ramping cost.
If you nerf nb skills we have 2 useless classes sorc and nb. What good does that do for anyone ?
I have always maintained strong classes are good for the game as long as they are class skills requiring actual button presses rather than the afk sorc we have today.
I assure you nb will be fine with a ramp up cost on cloak. Nb has access to more survival tools outside of cloak than sorc does outside of streak
It will probably start with cloak and the forums will move to the next strong skill of the NB maybe bow proc or burst heal. This is never ending if you ask me.
It played out exactly the same way with sorc and still hasn't ended (ZOS is still at it nerfing destro staff which only affects sorc)
Apart from you and maybe a few others how many NB's really know how to use cloak and shade ?
Why hurt 1-5% PVP'ers who actually know how to play this game ?2