Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

Alchimiste1

The reason people want ramp up cost on cloak is because it’s good game mechanics.

Alchimiste1

Talking about others being biased while he reveals himself as a ganker main lmao. Everyone could see it a mile away

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Then they're missing out lmao. I can assure you many top tier NBs run this build on PC NA

ShadowProc

infunite wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

infunite wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Close the thread zos. No evidence given. A lot of opinions given from both sides. It comes down to agree to disagree. Stick with your data and plan for OVERALL game balance. We are all guilty of thinking our class is the worst and want buffs or nerfs but stick to you plan.

It's the only Un biased one.

You're legitimately saying that cloak is fine right now, and that it will also be fine next patch after getting free major crit?

I am genuinely asking you to think for a moment, unbiased, and really think about all the benefits and drawbacks that cloak may or may not have and think about how people use it in your experience. After genuinely thinking about it, please say if it needs something to reign in its power.

I appreciate your tone sir. I will oblige.

Do I agree with buff? Absolutely not. I stated that earlier in this thread. I think it is misguided approach to what they were trying to do. They will see that in testing and will revert for sure. All it did was set off some individuals to go on a crusade because they believe their class is being treated poorly.

As for an unbiased opinion, I hate when people say this but it's relevant here. I have played since launch with 18 toons. I wouldn't play it if it's broken. And honestly only thing I enjoy right now is ganking. I took a long break.

When there are unchecked dks, 40k wardens, etc right now I believe it's fine as is. There are classes and specs that are hard counters to nb. And not to beat a dead horse but when there is a pot that renders most nbs primary evasion and defense that gives you a 15 second window to melt them then yes I am perfectly satisfied with the state of the class.

One thing not discussed here is it's not just the pot. That allows you to tackle the nb. Even after the 15 seconds good players will keep you tackled with skills or whatever. There are still so many things designed or not that pop you out of stealth.

I hate even saying it but things like structured entropy and Elemental Susceptibility really make it hard. Not to mention how many people are running vateshran staff and rending slashes.

Purge is not an option so if they put that stuff on you it's disengage or die time.

Good players tackle a nb easily. As an example when The streamer that is named after a frog finds me it's over. He will keep me pinned no matter what I do.

The skills and counters are used and most importantly player skill level is good it's GG against a lot of specs. Time to respawn.

In terms of gankers, they don't expect to "fight". They expect to kill someone before a fight starts. So yes, if they get revealed, they should be able to die easily, that's the tradeoff, since ganking usually means low hp, squishy, and specced only into damage. If a ganker gets revealed, they have many ways to get out. High mobility, shade, dodge roll cost reduction through their Blur skill, and medium armor dodge roll cost reduction.

But what about nightblades that aren't gankers? Nightblades that are specced to actually fight? Nightblades have a multitude of debuffs, incredible damage modifiers on top of their ability to reach high levels of weapon/spell damage due to having minor courage in their kit, and their healing is incredible as well. Now, on top of that, add the ability to go invisible. Even if someone goes through the trouble of revealing a nightblade, that nightblade doesn't just flop over and die just because they have been revealed. There is also the option to actually fight back. And nightblades are very good at fighting back. So I don't think being revealed means it's disengage or die time. As mentioned, leaving cloak even increases a nightblade's damage.

Nothing in nightblade's skills makes them inherently squishy, as someone mentioned and showed with build editor images earlier, you can easily build a nightblade to be rather tanky on top of it's excellent healing.

I honestly don't think that adding a ramping cost to cloak will ruin a nightblade or a ganker's experience. They can still use cloak, they just have to be slightly more mindful about resources, which isn't a bad thing.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Talking about others being biased while he reveals himself as a ganker main lmao. Everyone could see it a mile away

Yes. I believe in being 100 percent transparent and not try to mask my intent with terrible excuses.

And yes one of 18 toons are a nb which happens to be my main now. Like all the others have at one point or another.

That was a bad attempt troll. Lol

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Then they're missing out lmao. I can assure you many top tier NBs run this build on PC NA

Or maybe you think your evaluation of yourself is a tad too high. Maybe not.

What's your toons name? Mine is as listed here.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Again no one is arguing about the buff being too much. Where did someone defend that? Where?

In case you forgot, this thread is about ramping cost. Isn't this one of your many threads?

So simply no to ramping cost unless you want to further get rid of playstyles, and yes to do not add the buff.

I think so much stuff has been thrown against the wall in here by you and others some have forgot what they are even arguing.

Alchimiste1

Gankers should not have the survivability that they currently do with the easy access to healthy offering on top of their other defense tools. One way to balance this out is by introducing a ramp up cost increase to cloak.

Amottica

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Other than when pretty much everyone could not use a skill I have never been prevented from using a counter when dealing with a NB.

Just like everything else, I have worked to overcome obstacles in ESO by figuring out how to defend or overpower. After all, PvP is different from choreographed NPC fights found in PvE.

Oh, by the way. We know for a fact Zenimax does look at cloak and the related counters. After all, they just made a significant change to detect potions. That is a clear demonstration they are looking at the effectiveness of counters to cloak and likely an indication they will keep such a design.

Working to overcome an obstacle is not always a sign that things are in a good spot or even going in the right direction. Yes we can always fall back on L2P and I've done quite a lot of it myself but I'm also not about that Stockholm life either.

I certainly didn't quite the game during several times when it was clearly imbalanced because ZOS needed to sell a chapter or generate revenue/interest. This doesn't mean it was a good time for the health of the game even if it did make money for ZOS.

Ok so you are correct they do look at them and I wasn't being clear in my statement. You said the right people were looking at them. Given everything else they have and continue to do in this game regarding balance and performance I wouldn't call them the right people, just people making changes.

Just making a change and writing a note that said hey we're trying to improve things by doing this change doesn't really mean much when you have several other things you're not addressing. Just means you felt like looking at this one thing and making a change for whatever reason.

So no I wouldn't say they are the right people, just the people with power to make change which does not clearly equate to right at all in this case.

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

PhoenixGrey

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Exactly my point !

Most NB’s have no idea on how to play their own class

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:








Fully buffed without Continuous or Balorgh. Stats are 27k armor front bar, 30k armor back bar, 4.1k crit resist, 7.1k weapon damage, 26k stam, 44% crit rate, 85% crit damage before Minor Brittle, and decent sustain.

Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




Tooltip of Healthy:


All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

But op only care about tooltip on cloak and snipe.

Op has no idea about 8 missing bar slots and skills in general.

OP may know about oakensoul snipe build.
2 skill one bar legend better than you I promise

PhoenixGrey

MetallicMonk wrote: »

All the people against this have identified themselves as the 2 button nightblades.

Cloak back bar with nothing else defensive, and snipe frontbar with nothing else offensive.

What bar ? OP is playing advanced version of macro snipe oakensoul build.

Mere mortal like you don’t understand. I need snipe and cloak to be same button understood ? You go play with bar and skill

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Then they're missing out lmao. I can assure you many top tier NBs run this build on PC NA

Or maybe you think your evaluation of yourself is a tad too high. Maybe not.

What's your toons name? Mine is as listed here.

No, I’m not evaluating myself too high. I have a harder time fighting the NBs running the build I showed than some squishy NB ganker because 1) They are much tankier than a NB ganker, and 2) They deal just as much burst damage.

You only look at this discussion from a ganker perspective. I am looking at it from a brawler perspective. I can assure you that brawlerblades are 5x harder to deal with. @Alchimiste1, @React, @Shoyrus and @Cloudrest are some of the top brawlerblades on PC NA that currently run that build on their NB, and it’s really hard to kill them. Not only are they tanky, but they can deal 11k incaps and 16-17k bow procs against a standard build, not to mention Way of Fire proc and other sources of damage.

My IGN is @Static.Wave on PC NA if you play there

ebix_

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

IncultaWolf

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:








Fully buffed without Continuous or Balorgh. Stats are 27k armor front bar, 30k armor back bar, 4.1k crit resist, 7.1k weapon damage, 26k stam, 44% crit rate, 85% crit damage before Minor Brittle, and decent sustain.

Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




Tooltip of Healthy:


All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

Lol this class is so stacked, I wish necro had even a tiny bit of this power

Anti_Virus

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category

Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.

There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class

Reasonable post

Amottica

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Exactly my point !

Most NB’s have no idea on how to play their own class

It’s pretty much the same for each class.

SandandStars

Mayrael wrote: »

And we did the test. Actually the difference between sorc and NB in the same gear setup is stunning. I may be a bit rusty since I haven't played sorc for 6 years in PvP and EU to NA ping is not that good but the difference is there, NB is really superior class to sorc, it's beyond cloak as it plays marginal role in duel but overall feeling is overwhelming.

@Tyrant_Tim thanks for nice and good testing

Appreciate you guys doing the test, however…

How anyone who pvp’s could not know that NB’s kit outclasses Sorc by a magnitude blows my mind.

Once the NB Brawler cookie cutter builds are widely available, they’ll outnumber DKs.

DKs will remain easier, and tankier, but are far more boring to play.

Whoever said the combat dev team is filled with NBs has got to be at least partially correct. The buff to Assassin’s Will in this patch is a finger in the eye of class balance, or, the misguided belief that class balance is a core value.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Then they're missing out lmao. I can assure you many top tier NBs run this build on PC NA

Or maybe you think your evaluation of yourself is a tad too high. Maybe not.

What's your toons name? Mine is as listed here.

No, I’m not evaluating myself too high. I have a harder time fighting the NBs running the build I showed than some squishy NB ganker because 1) They are much tankier than a NB ganker, and 2) They deal just as much burst damage.

You only look at this discussion from a ganker perspective. I am looking at it from a brawler perspective. I can assure you that brawlerblades are 5x harder to deal with. @Alchimiste1, @React, @Shoyrus and @Cloudrest are some of the top brawlerblades on PC NA that currently run that build on their NB, and it’s really hard to kill them. Not only are they tanky, but they can deal 11k incaps and 16-17k bow procs against a standard build, not to mention Way of Fire proc and other sources of damage.

My IGN is @Static.Wave on PC NA if you play there

I sure do. Never heard of you. I will be looking now.

Bushido2513

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

PhoenixGrey

Amottica wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I just showed a screenshot of a NB clearly not squishy and clearly has very good offensive stats. So unless anyone is going to address the issue of tanky brawlerblades having access to Cloak with Major Savagery buff, then any argument made about NB being "easy to kill if pulled out of cloak" will be disregarded.

Not at all. Lmao. No one playing the build you made on paper.

Exactly my point !

Most NB’s have no idea on how to play their own class

It’s pretty much the same for each class.

No it’s exclusively for NB

StaticWave

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

StaticWave

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

And also, the reason you see those resource values is because I converted the template of my Sorc to Nb and forgot to change the attribute points. It was a minor mistake but shouldn’t be a huge problem anyways.

Way of Fire on NB provides needed sustained pressure for a class like NB. Red Mountain is bad and not needed. Using resilience because most people are sitting at 90%+ crit damage.

That is a potential build for next patch. They could just as easily drop ele sus for path and use a pen set instead. I can also guarantee you that the NBs running this build have killed decent players. Do you want to fight them to demonstrate?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

Yea the only tournament I won was 3 years ago when Mech Acuity had a 18s cooldown and 100% crit chance for 5s. There were many strong players, including a magplar that has won several tournaments and a very strong magdk.

I won because instead of fighting normally, I took advantage of Acuity and 1 shotted the strong players when the chance appeared. Basically played defensive the entire duel until I could 1 shot them.

Whatever that guy said about “learning to counter other classes”, I’ve done that for 5 years of dueling. You can name any class and I will tell you the most effective way to counter that class.

But there’s only so much you can do before class imbalance sets in. Good player vs good player, the stronger class wins by a long shot. There is no contest here. You could be perfectly weaving, block casting every skill and kiting to avoid damage, but if you’re a Necro fighting a DK, you are going to still lose lol. All you’ve done is prolonged your inevitable death.

Usually the people that don’t think there’s an issue with class balance haven’t played the game to the highest level yet. Not being toxic, just stating what it is.

Amottica

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

RedFireDisco

Do the same to shields and then we'll talk

RedFireDisco

D the same to heals then we'll talk

StaticWave

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

Turtle_Bot

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Do the same to shields and then we'll talk

do it to block, cloak and heals first and then we'll talk about shields

Turtle_Bot

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Most tangents are fine to bring up as long as they are related to the main topic, because they often provide additional information and good comparisons and examples that add to the discussion.

For example, discussing the fact that streak has a ramping cost despite the abundance of free movement speed currently available (that is really strong to build into as it abuses the positional desync bug in PvP allowing you to freely dodge a lot of incoming damage) and the universally good immovability potions that are good when fighting ALL classes as examples of an ability that is used in a similar way to cloak for kiting/evasion that already has strong and more generically applicable counters than cloak has, still being a good ability worth running despite having the downside of a ramping cost and those counters and that cloak would be the same.

It's further information to consider and shows that a ramping cost is not the end of an ability, but a way to add skill to using it effectively and prevent it from being abusable via constant spamming and allowing solid counter play without needing to over buff niche outside counters that would have a much more detrimental effect on the class. Remember the crying about the 100m range on detect pots that was simply an oversight from testing that NBs cried about it deleting their class from the game that entire last pts? Imagine if cloak had a ramping cost meaning detect pots didn't need their range increased and could have instead been left at the range they were at before.

What doesn't add to the discussion and derails far more than any tangent ever would is what many NBs on this thread have done to try and derail the thread, such as throwing insults, baiting and bashing others and when that fails they go off crying their crocodile tears to the forum mods to try and get people banned and the thread shut down because they don't want any discussions about potential balance options for their currently very over-tuned class.

Turtle_Bot

MetallicMonk wrote: »

All the people against this have identified themselves as the 2 button nightblades.

Cloak back bar with nothing else defensive, and snipe frontbar with nothing else offensive.

You forgot MR slotted on the front bar, that is constantly cried about as always missing because they decide to randomly throw it out instead of timing it properly with a medium weave/incap stun to essentially guarantee it lands.