Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:








Fully buffed without Continuous or Balorgh. Stats are 27k armor front bar, 30k armor back bar, 4.1k crit resist, 7.1k weapon damage, 26k stam, 44% crit rate, 85% crit damage before Minor Brittle, and decent sustain.

Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




Tooltip of Healthy:


All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

If the proposed changes to destro staves go through as is, I will be running a ranged magblade next patch with a build similar to this. It will have all the pressure of a proc-bowsorc, but with better mobility and unlike sorc it's going to have insane healing, almost all the buffs/debuffs in the game and 2 or 3 get out of jail free buttons that I can pick and choose from as needed because I only need to run 2 offensive abilities to get kills.

Amottica

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Amottica

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Most tangents are fine to bring up as long as they are related to the main topic, because they often provide additional information and good comparisons and examples that add to the discussion..

How often any class wins a dueling tournament has extremely limited relevance to how one skill for a different class and the counters to that skill perform. That is even before getting into the variables related to the tournament that are not being brought up. It seems more like grasping at straws and ignoring the fact that the current counters do work.

MindOfTheSwarm

Reveal skill exist for a reason.

Bushido2513

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

StaticWave

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Correct, all classes aren't equal, so let me ask you this:

Why does a DK excel at dueling, openworld PvP, BGs, and GvG?
Why does Warden excel at openworld PvP, BGS, GvG, and dueling depending on build?
Why does NB excel at dueling, openworld PvP, BGs, and GvG?

Why is Necro bad in almost every PvP type?
Why is Templar bad in almost every PvP type?
Why does Sorc only excel at openworld PvP but average in BGs and GvG?

If there was balance, then DK, Warden, and NB should only excel at some PvP type, and are worse at others. If there was balance, then Necro and Templar shouldn't be bad in almost every PvP type.

There is no reason to pick any class but those 3 (4 if you include Arcanist). There is no balance right now in ESO, and that's also a truth.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Yea, I have no problem losing a good fight either. Some people here don't understand that. It's not about being salty because of losing a fight. It's about wanting a fair fight. Fighting top end players on better classes is like your race example. We both have the same skill level, but the dude has a better car. What do people think is going to happen lol?

Skill is only 30% of the determining factor for a win. Class difference is another 40%, build difference is 20%, and luck is 10%. It's pretty easy to test this out too. Have 2 players who are equal in skill duel each other. 1 person plays a better class like a DK or NB, while the other person plays a worse class like Necro or Sorc. Have both of them run the same build down to the tiniest detail. I can guarantee everyone here that the person on a better class will win the majority, if not ALL of the time.

So if the top end players are using top end builds, are mostly similar in skill, then class difference and luck account for 50% of their winning chance. That's a lot!

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

Yea the only tournament I won was 3 years ago when Mech Acuity had a 18s cooldown and 100% crit chance for 5s. There were many strong players, including a magplar that has won several tournaments and a very strong magdk.

I won because instead of fighting normally, I took advantage of Acuity and 1 shotted the strong players when the chance appeared. Basically played defensive the entire duel until I could 1 shot them.

Whatever that guy said about “learning to counter other classes”, I’ve done that for 5 years of dueling. You can name any class and I will tell you the most effective way to counter that class.

But there’s only so much you can do before class imbalance sets in. Good player vs good player, the stronger class wins by a long shot. There is no contest here. You could be perfectly weaving, block casting every skill and kiting to avoid damage, but if you’re a Necro fighting a DK, you are going to still lose lol. All you’ve done is prolonged your inevitable death.

Usually the people that don’t think there’s an issue with class balance haven’t played the game to the highest level yet. Not being toxic, just stating what it is.

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model they have prooven to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

ShadowProc

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Most tangents are fine to bring up as long as they are related to the main topic, because they often provide additional information and good comparisons and examples that add to the discussion.

For example, discussing the fact that streak has a ramping cost despite the abundance of free movement speed currently available (that is really strong to build into as it abuses the positional desync bug in PvP allowing you to freely dodge a lot of incoming damage) and the universally good immovability potions that are good when fighting ALL classes as examples of an ability that is used in a similar way to cloak for kiting/evasion that already has strong and more generically applicable counters than cloak has, still being a good ability worth running despite having the downside of a ramping cost and those counters and that cloak would be the same.

It's further information to consider and shows that a ramping cost is not the end of an ability, but a way to add skill to using it effectively and prevent it from being abusable via constant spamming and allowing solid counter play without needing to over buff niche outside counters that would have a much more detrimental effect on the class. Remember the crying about the 100m range on detect pots that was simply an oversight from testing that NBs cried about it deleting their class from the game that entire last pts? Imagine if cloak had a ramping cost meaning detect pots didn't need their range increased and could have instead been left at the range they were at before.

What doesn't add to the discussion and derails far more than any tangent ever would is what many NBs on this thread have done to try and derail the thread, such as throwing insults, baiting and bashing others and when that fails they go off crying their crocodile tears to the forum mods to try and get people banned and the thread shut down because they don't want any discussions about potential balance options for their currently very over-tuned class.

It's been one sided? Lol. Sure bud.

The thread has been derailed since it was created. Nothing offered has come close to demonstrating let alone proving a nerf is warranted.

Opening comments were there are numerous counters. Defended by I shouldn't have to use them because it's not fair. I know how to use them I learned them all dueling but shouldn't have to use them. Closing argument use counters available.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Balance not around duels. Your discarding what he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costs for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Yea, I have no problem losing a good fight either. Some people here don't understand that. It's not about being salty because of losing a fight. It's about wanting a fair fight. Fighting top end players on better classes is like your race example. We both have the same skill level, but the dude has a better car. What do people think is going to happen lol?

Skill is only 30% of the determining factor for a win. Class difference is another 40%, build difference is 20%, and luck is 10%. It's pretty easy to test this out too. Have 2 players who are equal in skill duel each other. 1 person plays a better class like a DK or NB, while the other person plays a worse class like Necro or Sorc. Have both of them run the same build down to the tiniest detail. I can guarantee everyone here that the person on a better class will win the majority, if not ALL of the time.

So if the top end players are using top end builds, are mostly similar in skill, then class difference and luck account for 50% of their winning chance. That's a lot!

Salty. Perfect word. Weird no one said that before.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

Yea the only tournament I won was 3 years ago when Mech Acuity had a 18s cooldown and 100% crit chance for 5s. There were many strong players, including a magplar that has won several tournaments and a very strong magdk.

I won because instead of fighting normally, I took advantage of Acuity and 1 shotted the strong players when the chance appeared. Basically played defensive the entire duel until I could 1 shot them.

Whatever that guy said about “learning to counter other classes”, I’ve done that for 5 years of dueling. You can name any class and I will tell you the most effective way to counter that class.

But there’s only so much you can do before class imbalance sets in. Good player vs good player, the stronger class wins by a long shot. There is no contest here. You could be perfectly weaving, block casting every skill and kiting to avoid damage, but if you’re a Necro fighting a DK, you are going to still lose lol. All you’ve done is prolonged your inevitable death.

Usually the people that don’t think there’s an issue with class balance haven’t played the game to the highest level yet. Not being toxic, just stating what it is.

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

DK, NB, and Warden excel in all aspect of PvP. Strength and weaknesses don't apply to those 3 classes.

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

You aren't just a NB main. You are a ganker main. That alone skews your opinion lol. Honest question: Do you play NB without Cloak?

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

[snip]

1) I know the class from past experience
2) I play with top tier NBs

I can always ask them for opinion, and quite frankly I trust them more than the majority of NB mains on the forums. Most of them also agree that Cloak needs a ramping cost, btw.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Balance not around duels. Your discarding whay he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costd for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

There are no rules tourneys where class imbalance is amplified. Magsorc which does well in a tourney with rules now places bottom in a no rules tourney. DK excels as always, same for NB.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

Correct that the game should not be balanced around 1v1 but Static brought up the important issue. Currently 3 classes excel at most all types of pvp and that's a balance issue.

I'm all for saying when the players are even DK trumps Warden, Warden trumps NB, NB trumps, sorc, etc but that's not what's happening here.

DK, NB, and Warden have higher chances of trumping every other class that isn't them and that's an issue. Again I'm saying in scenarios where skill level is more so equal and I mean that from the bottom and top of the skill levels.

Now yes this thread is just about NB but you have to start somewhere and there are other threads about dk and warden nerf request so yes this is targeted at nb but that's fair because other overperforming classes are also being targeted which makes sense if you're trying to get some overall balance.


And no the cycle is not in effect like it seemed to be over the last few years. DK, NB, and Warden just keep staying at the top end for a while now. It used to be yeah just wait and your class will come up but that has stalled for some time now. And yeah maybe that's an arcanist thing, low staffing on ZOS part, an effect of the merger, etc but it's not moving like it used to.

olsborg

Not against it, but there has to be some mechanic put in place when cloak breaks or is broken for no apparent reason, and detection potions. If the cost is reimbursed or something...atleast something.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

I'm all for a good argument but the problem here is that you're talking in absolutes and that's not what is being said here.

There's a difference between using a counter, how often you have to use a counter, how well the counter works, etc.

So in this case

1 Does the counter work? I'd say yes

2 How often in a fight do you have to counter? As often as your opponent can make it to cooldown on said counter with no ramping cost on the skill.

Are you wiling to use counters? Absolutely, its fair gameplay.

Like we can mostly all agree on these things however what we're talking about is adjusting point 2. Should this skill that offers a lot on an already top performing class be allowed unchecked?

The real answer is that nobody know because its' never been put in check on live. Is it worth testing and further understanding? I'd say yes because on premise it seems like it might actually promote active gameplay choices which could possibly be more rewarding to the player.

It's the same reason I'm ok with streak ramp cost on sorc. I like sorc but I don't want to be op because that's fun for a few seconds but ultimately pretty boring for me at least.


I don't think Static wants sorc to be on top by far, just to have the playing field overall be more level than it currently is.

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

Balance not around duels. Your discarding whay he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costd for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

Sure the rules point is a fair point indeed. But even when you take out the rules or just adjust in the math for them a few classes still outrank ALL other classes by some margin and that's still an issue and more of what I was getting at however I admit I didn't make that correctly clear as I am now.

I am open to investigating ramping cost because nb is one of the three top performing classes in pvp period and that's not a good thing.

Again I'm still talking about equally skilled players in or out of group scenarios. So no let's take out the thought of this affecting 1v1 but just where nb should fall into the balance of things.

I'd rather see a dueling tournament where (when skill level is even) DK kills Warden/Templar, Templar Kills Sorc/NB, NB kills Necro/Sorc, etc

That's not meant to be a perfect example but you get my point where each class has another class that gives them more trouble then another class. That's not what's going on here.

In an equally skilled group or 1v1 nb just performs better than classes that are not dk or warden. Now is it all about cloak, of course not, a ramping cost on cloak is just a targeted way to reign in power. You could do the same by altering the whole kit of nb but I think cloak gets targeted because it's just easier to think of reigning in nb using a ramp cost mechanic as we've seen it already work on sorc.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

I'm all for a good argument but the problem here is that you're talking in absolutes and that's not what is being said here.

There's a difference between using a counter, how often you have to use a counter, how well the counter works, etc.

So in this case

1 Does the counter work? I'd say yes

2 How often in a fight do you have to counter? As often as your opponent can make it to cooldown on said counter with no ramping cost on the skill.

Are you wiling to use counters? Absolutely, its fair gameplay.

Like we can mostly all agree on these things however what we're talking about is adjusting point 2. Should this skill that offers a lot on an already top performing class be allowed unchecked?

The real answer is that nobody know because its' never been put in check on live. Is it worth testing and further understanding? I'd say yes because on premise it seems like it might actually promote active gameplay choices which could possibly be more rewarding to the player.

It's the same reason I'm ok with streak ramp cost on sorc. I like sorc but I don't want to be op because that's fun for a few seconds but ultimately pretty boring for me at least.


I don't think Static wants sorc to be on top by far, just to have the playing field overall be more level than it currently is.

@Bushido2513

I'm pretty sure when Sorc got its ramping cost on Streak/Ball of Lightning, a lot of Sorc mains went into threads like this to defend the skill, just like ShadowProc and a lot of NB mains are doing.

Guess what? They went ahead with the ramping cost change and Sorc mains are still functioning just fine. I'm pretty sure NB mains can adapt like they're telling others to adapt right?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

I'm pretty sure when Sorc got its ramping cost on Streak/Ball of Lightning, a lot of Sorc mains went into threads like this to defend the skill, just like ShadowProc and a lot of NB mains are doing.

Guess what? They went ahead with the ramping cost change and Sorc mains are still functioning just fine. I'm pretty sure NB mains can adapt like they're telling others to adapt right?

That's just some straight truth right there.

And I can easily admit I might have said something about streak if I was on the forums at that time. It probably seemed like a death sentence to the play style at the time but we now know after actually trying it that sorc still plays just about the same and more fairly to others in that respect.

And that idea isn't a bad one to apply here I think. Again I'm speaking of just reining the class in a bit as it is just currently performing at a noticeably higher level than more than half of the total classes.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

Yea the only tournament I won was 3 years ago when Mech Acuity had a 18s cooldown and 100% crit chance for 5s. There were many strong players, including a magplar that has won several tournaments and a very strong magdk.

I won because instead of fighting normally, I took advantage of Acuity and 1 shotted the strong players when the chance appeared. Basically played defensive the entire duel until I could 1 shot them.

Whatever that guy said about “learning to counter other classes”, I’ve done that for 5 years of dueling. You can name any class and I will tell you the most effective way to counter that class.

But there’s only so much you can do before class imbalance sets in. Good player vs good player, the stronger class wins by a long shot. There is no contest here. You could be perfectly weaving, block casting every skill and kiting to avoid damage, but if you’re a Necro fighting a DK, you are going to still lose lol. All you’ve done is prolonged your inevitable death.

Usually the people that don’t think there’s an issue with class balance haven’t played the game to the highest level yet. Not being toxic, just stating what it is.

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

DK, NB, and Warden excel in all aspect of PvP. Strength and weaknesses don't apply to those 3 classes.

So does stam sorc. You keep leaving that off.....

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively. PvP is about figuring it out, like others have, or die not trying. Those of us that have taken the time to figure this out have proven, and continue to prove, the fact that the current design works well.

Just because someone would like something that works well to be different does not mean the wrong people are looking at the design.

Those unwilling to change to overcome have made their choice and the game should not be nerfed to suit them.

This all works but can you tell me why sorcs rarely win dueling tournaments? I'm including @StaticWave because he's done tons of research on this with cmx data to back it up.

Are you basically saying that certain classes statistically do worse because they just haven't figured out how to use the counters or given tools correctly?

See your logic works perfectly if two dks fight and one wins because I can say clearly that one dk just figured it out and especially if that same dk wins 9 out of 10 times.

But when other classes go up against nb and dk in tournaments currently and statistically just don't win it would suggest that we are getting farther and farther from the idea that those players just aren't that good and the players that happen to play dk and nb are just overall better.

I'm not actually saying that wanting something to be different is right. I would say that both ZOS and the players have their opinion. What I've been saying is that we'll only find out if we try it. Now of course we can't try every little thing everyone thinks of however several people have been interested in this change for some time now so to say that ZOS is more right just because they are on the back end of the server still doesn't mean anything. Again it just means they are the only ones with the power to make change which doesn't mean the changes they make are right.

The only way we could even possibly all agree is if they either made the change and we saw the stats for ourselves or they made the data they use to balance things public.


So yes we make choices, ZOS makes choices but the only time we can all agree is if we all have access to see those choices on live.


I don't agree with nerf by committee but I do feel that when a voice grows large enough that the feedback should at least be investigated and that there should be better communication.

But just making changes and saying this is what we're doing because we know better isn't anywhere near that.

I fail to see how Sorcs do in tournaments has anything to do with NBs or cloak. I prefer to not go down rabit holes in threads so I try to avoid tangents and there are a lot of tangents in this thread.

I do agree that people have their opinions and with a subject such as this it greatly depends on them being willing to use counters and actually getting to use them. I was frustrated with this at the start but now find them very usable.

Here is what you said:

Amottica wrote: »

PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what the other classes can do. This is also less about L2P, as you put it than about choosing to actually use those counters and adjusting one's playstyle to use them effectively.

@Bushido2513 brought up Sorc in tournaments and mentioned me to refute your point. Dueling tournaments is where class imbalance is best displayed. There are no extra variables like multiple players, environmental LoS, teammates, etc. It's just you and your opponent.

So when you claimed that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, he and I can say that no, it's not the case because I have participated in dueling tournaments over 3 years as a stamsorc main, and the class consistently placed bottom, with only 1 patch where I won due to 1 set. And if you want to talk statistics, then I was the only stamsorc who participated in dueling tournaments. One stamsorc over 3 years with 10+ tournaments.

It's not even about learning what counters. That is an asinine argument because everybody who reaches a decent level of PvP experience already knows how to counter other classes to the best of their ability. What makes or breaks at that level is class and build difference.

So to claim that PvP is all about working to figure out how to counter what other classes can do, is 30% of the picture. The other 70% is class imbalance, build strength, and luck. This is why PvP balance needs to be done by talking to the players who are performing at the high end, see what they think needs to be changed, then talk to the players at the middle end, see what they think needs to be changed, and then implement changes that fall between the two ends of the player base.

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

You aren't just a NB main. You are a ganker main. That alone skews your opinion lol. Honest question: Do you play NB without Cloak?

Honest answer. Yes I have. A couple if times. I play what I enjoy at the moment to make me want to play after all this time. Is that okay? Why do you play stam sorc? I answered you before I have played them all. Multiple times as my only toon and then I take a break.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ebix_ wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll just repeat this again. There is no rule that says a NB using Cloak is squishy. This is what many brawler blades will be using next patch:



Tooltip of Concealed and Bow:




All of these offensive stats while being tanky and having 1 proc set. NB is NOT squishy if you build right. Now add Cloak to that and tell me if it's "easy" killing any decent NB with a good build.

I know we are not here to discuss builds, but there are some mistakes in this build that "top tier Nightblades" should not make.

First lets imagine you can sustain with that recovery.
You have all points in stamina on a magblade, so not taking advantege of Magicka Flood passive.
Using way of fire on a burst class like NB is a misplay, especially if you can't keep the uptime. I suggest a set like Red Mountain if you want proc damage.
Your hp is Too low for a Brawlerblade.
Why using Resilience cp with Rallying Cry and 4 Pieces of impen!? there are bigger diminishing returns if you stack one type of mitigation.

Any nightblade with that tooltip and tankiness might not be an easy kill but also wont be dangerous with Cloak, also if they are not running Major Expedition like you using Cloak will be only a waste of mag for them. tho you can still kill bad players with it, but tbh you wont even need a decent build to kill them anyway.

Lmao so you are telling the top tier NBs running this build that they shouldn’t run it? Okay lol

Show me what you are running

[snip]

1) I know the class from past experience
2) I play with top tier NBs

I can always ask them for opinion, and quite frankly I trust them more than the majority of NB mains on the forums. Most of them also agree that Cloak needs a ramping cost, btw.

I also will trust them more too. I would trust your opinion more also if you didn't ask for so many nerfs and made more rationale arguments. I know you know the game but your being biased in this case clearly. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I know you know the counters if you duel that much so if you choose not to use them that's on you.

But they're available and function. There's no arguing that. You choose not to

[edited to remove quote]

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

My comment is very much accurate. As someone who has well over a decade doing PvP, and mostly instanced PvP vs what is large group PvP, I would never suggest all classes were equal as that would have been absurd.

And the more skilled PvP player has learned to counter the other player and gain the advantage. Those who do not learn to overcome perish more often. That is a simple fact with PvP. Truth.

Ok so I kind of see what you're saying and let me see if I can break this down for you.

Yes you are correct, I have killed many other players on other classes who were less skilled than I. I actually already said this and this isn't really the debate.

What we're really talking about is equal level players in which case then class balance is a huge factor.

Find two equally skilled players and let one be a dk or nb and one be a sorc, statistically the sorc just isn't winning the majority of the time and again @StaticWave has the data to back this up.

So just absorb this for a second. I'm not saying better players don't beat lesser players. I'm saying equally skilled players suffer a larger disadvantage due to class in an otherwise equal fight. You can say hey that other player just isn't better than the one who won all you want but we are now talking about actually data that shows that players who know how to play the game just have a hard time getting past class imbalance when up against opponents of equal skill level.


And yes that's going to be my focus here because if the skill is less then the opponent should and likely will die but that's no help at all to an equally matched opponent who's class is letting them down vs this other possibly over performing class.

I've played many many games over the years and there are a few rules that stand in general when it comes to pvp.

One of the golden rules is that if a class, archetype, etc is winning too many matches then it's probably overperforming.

Now we don't have ZOS's back end data but we do have thousands of hours of dueling tournaments on youtube, data from @StaticWave and others like him, etc that clearly show that some classes like nb and dk are just performing better.


Or are you saying that for some reason good players just only like to play nb and dk and anyone that losses to them no matter how well they might do on the same class, how many tournaments they've otherwise won, etc just isn't as good as the other player? That they just didn't learn the counters correctly????


Or are you saying that you know the skill of everyone who is interested in this change and that you know from experience with them that the only reason they want this change is not because they feel nb is overtuned and that cloak with no cost ramp is adding to this but that they all just aren't good enough to use counters?



To put it another way, I have no problem loosing a race, I have a problem if I lose in a race where all cars are supposed to be similar but I'm driving a mustang and the other guy is in a Ferrari and someone in the stands is yelling saying I need to use the corners, adapt, and overcome. What???


Be the better player theory only works when all players are at least given similar levels of power.

Balance not around duels. Your discarding whay he said. Many rules get put in that are not accounted for. Prohibiting sets and abilities that are in game to help balance.

So no dueling data is not valid for balancing. Not even close.

And....... why would it be needed overall to help dueling. You want ramping costd for them limit the amount of cloaks in duels. Lmao

There are no rules tourneys where class imbalance is amplified. Magsorc which does well in a tourney with rules now places bottom in a no rules tourney. DK excels as always, same for NB.

I know the subtleties. Not my point at all and you know it. I was saying that anyone trying to say dueling data to balance is way off.

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Game is not and should not be balanced around duels. Different strengths and weaknesses of classes. It was designed with pvp zone and a duel zone was added later.

Asking for balance in game where Zos business model theyvhave proovong to shift the top classes to drive profit is a waste of time. The funny thing is that if you are patient what you are sking for will eventually happen anyways to drive more profit.

Correct that the game should not be balanced around 1v1 but Static brought up the important issue. Currently 3 classes excel at most all types of pvp and that's a balance issue.

I'm all for saying when the players are even DK trumps Warden, Warden trumps NB, NB trumps, sorc, etc but that's not what's happening here.

DK, NB, and Warden have higher chances of trumping every other class that isn't them and that's an issue. Again I'm saying in scenarios where skill level is more so equal and I mean that from the bottom and top of the skill levels.

Now yes this thread is just about NB but you have to start somewhere and there are other threads about dk and warden nerf request so yes this is targeted at nb but that's fair because other overperforming classes are also being targeted which makes sense if you're trying to get some overall balance.


And no the cycle is not in effect like it seemed to be over the last few years. DK, NB, and Warden just keep staying at the top end for a while now. It used to be yeah just wait and your class will come up but that has stalled for some time now. And yeah maybe that's an arcanist thing, low staffing on ZOS part, an effect of the merger, etc but it's not moving like it used to.

Stam sorc is in that group as well. And don't try it's because of proc sets. It's the whole package with them.

ShadowProc

olsborg wrote: »

Not against it, but there has to be some mechanic put in place when cloak breaks or is broken for no apparent reason, and detection potions. If the cost is reimbursed or something...atleast something.

That's the part I don't understand. They claim they have played it but don't know how many times it breaks.

Imagine it breaks from something that's not supposed to so you cast it again which stinks on its own but add in ramping cost? How is that right.

They compare it to streak. But not the same thing. Does streak EVER not work? Does it get broken by things that are not suppose to break it? NO.

Clearly Zos understands this and hence the ramping costs on streak and roll dodge. Both never fail to work.

Disagree with that point?

Bushido2513

ShadowProc wrote: »

So does stam sorc. You keep leaving that off.....

Because it's just not true in the same way. Stamsorc can compete but crutches on sets and weapon skills to fill in gaps that those other classes just don't have. Again I'm speaking of evenly skilled players.

Any class can beat down another class in most cases where skill is the deciding factor to a sufficient degree. This is about NB being ahead of other classes to a degree that templar, Necro, sorc, etc can't match when skill isn't the deciding factor. That's the imbalance here

ShadowProc

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

All your prooving is that as much as I am a NB main youbare a stam sorc main. And you believe that Zos should change all other classes or abilities that counter your build.

If you put together all your threads it makes sense now. You are unwilling or feel it is wrong to use available design to counter opponents.

It is impossible to make a build that beats everyone easily. So you have demonstrated with your calls for numerous nerfs that you want anything that gives you trouble and makes it longer to kill someone that zos should nerf it to make it easier on stam sorc

Thank you Zos. Great patch so far. You be you.

I'm all for a good argument but the problem here is that you're talking in absolutes and that's not what is being said here.

There's a difference between using a counter, how often you have to use a counter, how well the counter works, etc.

So in this case

1 Does the counter work? I'd say yes

2 How often in a fight do you have to counter? As often as your opponent can make it to cooldown on said counter with no ramping cost on the skill.

Are you wiling to use counters? Absolutely, its fair gameplay.

Like we can mostly all agree on these things however what we're talking about is adjusting point 2. Should this skill that offers a lot on an already top performing class be allowed unchecked?

The real answer is that nobody know because its' never been put in check on live. Is it worth testing and further understanding? I'd say yes because on premise it seems like it might actually promote active gameplay choices which could possibly be more rewarding to the player.

It's the same reason I'm ok with streak ramp cost on sorc. I like sorc but I don't want to be op because that's fun for a few seconds but ultimately pretty boring for me at least.


I don't think Static wants sorc to be on top by far, just to have the playing field overall be more level than it currently is.

It is kept in check by all the available counters though. That is the point. Streak is not. You can build for speed. That's it. One option. And it doesn't fail when it's not suppose to like cloak.