Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

PhoenixGrey · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Dk and warden do not have a “I win everything button” in their toolkit

Alright dude. I tried to have a discussion with you. Done with you. Sorry. Cloak is not a I win button.

Corrosive Armor is.

DK's and warden's are not lightning fast as NB's

NB does not have to take any damage if it doesn't want to. The fact that you are even dying on a NB in open world PVP means you don't know how to play the class

PhoenixGrey · July 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like someone here said, the only people defending Cloak and agreeing with you are NB mains.

When my class skill needs a nerf, I am willing to be objective about it, like when I made a thread asking for Ball of Lightning to be nerfed when it was overperforming:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

I could have been defending it like you and other NB mains are doing, but after all you can’t change biasness.

Oh btw, HP shield scaling sorc also needs a nerf. See what I mean when I’m being objective, even if it nerfs my playstyle and the build I’m using?

At least people are agreeing with me. Facts are facts whether you wish them to be true or not.

Nb is the most god tier class in this game. There are no facts to discuss here

I like your post before this one but disagree on them being the best. Dk and maybe Warden. Then NB.

Dk and warden do not have a “I win everything button” in their toolkit

Warden I don't really have a comment on but Dk has an ult that says yeah forget about your armor while also not doing all that much damage to me, one of the best ccs in the game, a beast mode heal, native block enhancement, recovery built into the ultimate, etc.

I'll say it another way, Dk is I think stronger because anyone can pick it up and become easily stronger. NB is stronger when and if used correctly.

It's situational at times but I'd still give Dk the nod all together.

I am right now assuming that a NB is perfectly played.

Yeah if you dont know to use shade and cloak correctly like mostly all NB mains on this forum, you will definitely struggle

A well played NB will never take damage from a NB or DK if played correctly. Except stam sorc no class can actually keep up with NB in terms of speed. However sorc just tickles the NB at this point so there's that

You could compare the burst damage of a NB vs a DK or a warden. I am sure NB is higher. That combined with the above fact that NB has the speed and stealth to avoid anything makes it the perfect PVP class to have ever existed

StaticWave · July 2023

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

StaticWave · July 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

@StaticWave

Here is my submission for the cloak is bad challenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBL5e1F-tSA

Thanks for the clip. Let me make a short analysis of where Cloak is bad and Cloak is good based on a portion of the video.

1) At 0:26, you accidentally walked into a Warden's Deep Fissure as it went off, breaking your Cloak. Cloak gets countered here, even if it was accidental. Why those people didn't continue attacking you, I have no idea, but if I was playing I would definitely drop an ulti.

2) At 0:53, a purple guy walked directly into your path and probably saw you. You cloaked just as he was right on top of you, then turned around and landed a quick combo to kill him. Against players who don't use a counter, Cloak is very strong like that.

3) At 1:08, you used Camo Hunter to pull a NB out of Cloak. Now I'm not sure why that NB decided to just sit there when he was at low HP. He probably thought he was safe so instead of retreating back in stealth, he wanted to wait it out? Either way, that was a mistake on that NB's part which allowed you to pull him out of stealth with Camo Hunter.

4) At 1:25, you cloaked and side stepped the Templar as he was trying to pull you out with Jabs. This is one of the instances where direct AoE damage isn't as good of a counter as people might think, and are usually soft counters. Most of the times, getting pulled out of Cloak from an AoE direct damage ability is accidental, like how you accidentally got revealed by Deep Fissure at 0:26. I'm pretty sure that Warden didn't even realize you were there lol.

5) At 2:05, the Templar stunned and jabbed you from behind. You literally side stepped, Cloaked, walked backwards as the Templar was still jabbing because he probably thought you were cloaking forward, and killed him without being pulled out of stealth. Another instance of AoE direct damage being a soft counter rather than hard counter, and an example of someone using Cloak to walk in other directions than just going forward.

6) At 2:24, that jesus beam would have been canceled if you Cloaked. I won't judge why you didn't, but I'm just pointing out what Cloak can do.

7) 2:45 was a good example of Camo Hunter working properly. Both you and that NB used Cloak and were walking towards the bridge. He decided to change direction and walked right into you. You took the initiative and pulled him out of stealth first. At that point, the NB should have opened fire and Incap you because you were still under the effect of the GCD and he wasn't, but he probably was inexperienced. You definitely out-experienced him there.

8) At 2:58, you walked towards the purple guy and Cloaked in his line of sight. He should have seen that with his peripheral vision and made the correct move to either block or retreat with a dodge roll. He didn't and paid the price. He would have died to a Streak user too with that poor situational awareness. And yes, I love procs too lol.

9) At 3:46, your Cloak was broken by Puncturing Sweep. That was a good example of AoE direct damage working well as a soft counter.

10) At 3:54, you cloaked right in front of him and he jabbed to pull you out of stealth, but you side stepped it and landed the killing blow. A good example of countering the soft counter.

So the takeaway from this short analysis is Cloak is definitely hard countered if you slot the right counter for it and be within range. However, soft counters don't always work if the Cloak user is experienced. Some fights are going to be rough when you run into people that slot hard counters such as potions, Camo Hunter (when it works). Some fights are manageable with experience even if your opponents are using soft counters. Some fights will be super easy when nobody uses any counters.

I have the same conclusion for Streak. Some fights are super rough when my opponents are moving at near maximum speed with a gap closer slotted. I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to get away from the templar in your clip if he decided to spam Toppling Charge at me. However, some fights are manageable if my opponents have a soft counter like snares or fast movement speed. I would just use corners to abuse the targeting system around LoS, and use Caltrops to slow them down.

So the real question we should be asking is, do Streak users get away more often than Cloak users? We can't form an accurate response to that because that would require lots of data. Maybe ZoS knows? Idk lol. But I do know that the fights I'm getting into, Streak can maybe give me 20-30 seconds more before I eventually get overwhelmed. The ramping cost really takes a hit on my sustain.

Amottica · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

StaticWave · July 2023

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

@StaticWave @ShadowProc

I'm including you two because I've been doing a bit of back and forth with each of you a lot.

The video I'm liking is an old Battleground I did as a Nightblade. It's not really important that you or anyone watch but I mention it because it did show me some things that changed my mind about possibly adding a ramping cost. I don't think it's exactly the best idea and here's why.

Overall I notice in my own gameplay how much I use cloak when moving across the battlefield. I wasn't doing anything OP or interesting at all, it's just what worked for me in terms of fighting and moving across the battlefield. If the ramping mech were in there I would have probably enjoyed the gameplay a lot less and been killed a lot more.

Now sure we could say yeah I could adjust my build and just have more recovery and less damage but the problem I see is that this wouldn't be fair to the multiple playstyles that use cloak. A bomber doesn't exactly use cloak in the same way as a ganker who doesn't use the cloak in the same way as a brawler.

I'm not saying this couldn't be worked out in some other way if we altered cloak but after looking at my own gameplay I'd think a ramp would be more punishing to various playstyles then it would be correctly limiting to the majority of playstyles.

If I was going to nerf myself in the video I'd just rather have cloak be the same but have the overall power of the class be adjusted a bit. Keep in mind in this video hybrid wasn't a thing yet I believe and since then nb has gotten a few other buffs.

Also when it comes to the streak comparison I do think that we should keep in mind that Sorc just plays as mostly hit and run, ranged, or brawler types and in those scenarios having more streaks isn't usually the life or death of the build or even how you end up moving around the battlefield (not in the same way a bomber or ganker might need it to move about) . With sorc usually the amount of streaks I have is enough to get the job done if I'm playin correctly.

For a bomber, or ganker the number of cloaks factors in more because you might just be moving into position or really actually trying to get away.

In any case also in my video you will see that only a small amount of players try to counter me in stealth and I do die to them so that part works as expected. If I had to deal with counters and ramp cost it would have been very hard to move around or enjoy the match as much and I don't mean that in a fun challenging way which is something I'm ok with in most cases.

So that's my story on why I now think a ramp mechanic would be too overall punishing and that cloak isn't as good a comparison when you take into account different nightblade playstyles.

I still definitely support finding a way to bring nb in line with the power of other classes if other classes aren't going to be brought to its power level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9TqmcFN-tI

DrNukenstein · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

6) At 2:24, that jesus beam would have been canceled if you Cloaked. I won't judge why you didn't, but I'm just pointing out what Cloak can do.

I really really thought I could heal through it and make space. Unfortunately I made what is a mistake, and got caught. However, there were 2 plars, and I'm not confident that cloak wouldn't have broken on that get away.

I don't have hard proof, but toppling charge and some other gap closers do seem to break cloak if cloak is cast during the travel time. Like how gap closers and projectiles will follow a sorc who streaked during the travel time.

ShadowProc · July 2023

Agree on all accounts. Gankers aka rogues, like to hit super hard and try to get away. It's the fun part for us. Make a hit and get away with it. Especially the more players around the more successful the hit was, hence more thrilling. If I get hit by a counter it's gg a lot of the time. That is one of the two tools available to escape after hit.

NB needing adjustment is a different and frankly more challenging discussion in regards to balance. And not to sound cliche but I would rather other classes like necro and sorc to be looked at to bring them up higher.

I find lower TTK to be more fun. Not a fan of the tank meta at all. Usually it's when I take my breaks from the game as i dont find it fun to have unkillable enemies.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

NB needing adjustment is a different and frankly more challenging discussion in regards to balance. And not to sound cliche but I would rather other classes like necro and sorc to be looked at to bring them up higher.

.

Yeah when you think about it I sort of see why everything is so imbalanced and equally or more so hard to balance.

It's PVP vs PVE vs Sales vs Other IP

I think people consider nerfs because it's maybe easier to visualize bringing two or three in line and having less power overall floating around vs trying to creatively give power to other classes and risking interactions that create broken metas.

But yeah no trying to fix so many things by just changing cloak sounds like an overly simplified approach to a complicated issue. This usually works out with mixed results.

Sort of like what we're seeing with ZOS just making combat changes without releasing a clear overall roadmap.

Addressing pain points is fine but it needs to be done within the consideration of the larger picture of direction and all affected and this cloak suggestion doesn't feel like that when I examine it in mind.

Udrath · July 2023

Rather them reduce the cost of camo and mage light to like 2000 or lower.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

Udrath wrote: »

Rather them reduce the cost of camo and mage light to like 2000 or lower.

That would be close but probably a tad too low. I think. The cost of the counter should be close to the cost of the thing it counters. You also have to factor in radius of the effect.

These counters are also fairly worth a slot on most builds so I think you have to factor in the likelihood of multiple enemies popping them sequentially.

I'm just giving background but yeah I support lowering the cost just a smidge to see where that gets us.

DrNukenstein · July 2023

I also support a cost decrease on detect skills.

Ain't even scared of an extra meter on the range, or some more choices of effects that can be mixed into detect pots.

Amottica · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

SandandStars · July 2023

So, why is it there are exponentially more responses on this thread than others?

Why could that possibly be?

StaticWave · July 2023

Amottica wrote: »

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Of course there isn't. You know why? Because they also have Shadow Image to use in case Cloak gets revealed. You conveniently forget that Shadow Image + Cloak are amazing when combined together. Yes, it costs 2 bar slots, but let's also not forget that Sorc has to slot an armor buff while NB gets it from a passive. So realistically, NB saves a bar slot for not needing to slot an armor buff, which can then be used to slot Shadow Image or another defensive ability with Cloak.

If there was a skill that specifically prevents people from Streaking, then nobody would even use Streak. This is not to mention Streak doesn't protect you from ranged attacks or cancel channeled executes.

Jierdanit · July 2023

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

ShadowProc · July 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

Jierdanit · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

In almost every case in which you use streak defensively Jesus Beam is absolutely a counter to it. Lol.

Sorc has no way to quickly heal up, that is why they need streak, to get away to LoS or out of range and then heal.
Jesus Beam follows you all the way through streak and is just going to kill you before you can do anything against it.

If you don't know *** about sorc just don't act like you do.

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

It's a soft counter but not a hard counter. Ranged executes can still be dodged mid Streak if the Streak user combines Streak and roll dodge at the same time. Jesus beam goes through dodge roll, so it's a soft counter in that aspect.

Jesus beam also has a 28m range so it would take 2 Streaks to get out of its range. If I'm getting beamed by someone while above 50% HP, it's bearable. If I'm just below 50% HP, I will actually block heal with Vigor instead and Streak at the last tick of the beam.

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

It's a soft counter but not a hard counter. Ranged executes can still be dodged mid Streak if the Streak user combines Streak and roll dodge at the same time. Jesus beam goes through dodge roll, so it's a soft counter in that aspect.

Jesus beam also has a 28m range so it would take 2 Streaks to get out of its range. If I'm getting beamed by someone while above 50% HP, it's bearable. If I'm just below 50% HP, I will actually block heal with Vigor instead and Streak at the last tick of the beam.

I know Static. But come on. You know that he is reaching. Lol.

ShadowProc · July 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

In almost every case in which you use streak defensively Jesus Beam is absolutely a counter to it. Lol.

Sorc has no way to quickly heal up, that is why they need streak, to get away to LoS or out of range and then heal.
Jesus Beam follows you all the way through streak and is just going to kill you before you can do anything against it.

If you don't know *** about sorc just don't act like you do.

Your HoTs? Lol.

Jierdanit · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

In almost every case in which you use streak defensively Jesus Beam is absolutely a counter to it. Lol.

Sorc has no way to quickly heal up, that is why they need streak, to get away to LoS or out of range and then heal.
Jesus Beam follows you all the way through streak and is just going to kill you before you can do anything against it.

If you don't know *** about sorc just don't act like you do.

Your HoTs? Lol.

Ah yes vigor and surge, definitely enough to counter heal 5k Beam ticks.

(Edit: Lol.)

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Ringeren wrote: »

I pvp with NB and Sorc (and others including vampire), and if you think cloak is as good as blink for escaping, you haven't played it yourself. I'm sure half my cloaks end early from debuffs i got on or enemy just uses an aoe when I vanish to hit me out of it or they have flare slotted. While two blinks in a row is 95% chance of escape unless you have other vampire/sorc after you.

If you want cloak to have ramping cost you need to buff it more, like give back the cleanse it used to have or give it major expedition (which has so many other sources it wouldn't really be a good buff even).

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said 2 streaks and I'm out of range, here is a clip of me just a few hours ago 1vXing in Cyrodiil.

https://youtu.be/F1nyQtWv6Ts

Just for context, my total movement speed in this clip was 198% (21% from 3x Swift, 15% from Hurricane, 10% from Orc sprint, 12% from 4 medium, and 40% base sprint speed).

I streaked twice AND sprinted. I still got hit by lightning heavy attack and several debuffs + DoTs being reapplied. It was only until I line of sighted around the wall up until 2nd floor that I got 10 seconds of breathing room. They were right up on me afterwards.

This is clip is exactly what's wrong with Sorc right now. I am basically speed capped with Streak, yet I'm still taking a lot of damage from ranged attacks + whatever DoTs they put on me. I was completely drained of resources despite having 1.5k regen on both stats, Essence Thief, and Dark Deal sustain. Even with 10 seconds of breathing room, I couldn't get myself up either because Sorc has practically no burst heal or defensive HoTs. The only way for me to reliably heal is by being offensive, which means I had to turn back and fight the people I ran away from. I mean what? I think @Turtle_Bot experienced something similar a month ago on their Sorc.

If I was a brawler NB, I would have no problem kiting that group and healing through their damage.

You didn't use 2 streaks to get away, you streaked once INTO the pet sorc and incoming DK from the right, and then one more to get away. And if you look carefully at 12 sec you see the red aura of vampire mist form in the ground floor doorway from the guy chasing you. Read the last sentence again in my first bit...

It didn’t matter if I Streaked right into the pet Sorc. My last Streak teleported me away from him and I sprinted with clear distance from him, yet still took damage from his lightning attack.

If I was on a NB, I would have cloaked around the corner at the beginning of the video and saved all my mag. This is where you failed to understand my point.

This means on your NB you would have used more than just cloak to escape which supports the point I was making, that an experienced NB will have more tricks up their sleeve than just cloak. That is what makes them a challenge to kill, not the use of cloak.

I can say the same about Streak though. Someone gap closing on me isn't gonna automatically kill me.

But then again, the original argument was comparing Streak vs Cloak as a defensive ability.

Actually, the original argument merely mentioned streak because the OP wanted cloak cost to work like streak. Yea, we can read between the lines but the original argument also ignored there are already strong, purposefully created, counters to cloak.

Yes, there are strong, purposefully created counters to Cloak. There are also strong, purposefully created counters to Streak.

Yet 1 ability has no ramping cost while the other does. That’s probably why the OP glanced over Streak, to use it as comparison.

It is natural to compare the two abilities. They may function differently, but they essentially are defensive tools used by players to avoid getting hit.

There may be some things that might be useful against a Sorc using streak even though I have yet to have someone stop me when I used Streak to escape. Am I really that good that there are real counters so streak and no one is able to use them on me? I expect a root would prevent it for a moment.

However, I have yet to see a skill that specifically states it is designed to prevent streaking while there are multiple skills that do specifically state they are will reveal players stealthed and invisible and even prevent them from returning to that state for a given period of time.

Such specific wording is a fundamental requirement for something to be purposefully designed for such uses.

A skill specifically designed to counter streak is not needed.
Every gap closer is basically a counter to streak, the new Mist allows every class to chase sorcs with a skill similar to streak, even Jesus Beam is basically a counter to streak in most situations.

On top of that simply having high movement speed already seriously helps in catching a sorc and everyone can get very high speed now.

Jesus beam is a counter to streak??? Lol. Oh man. This gets better and better

It's a soft counter but not a hard counter. Ranged executes can still be dodged mid Streak if the Streak user combines Streak and roll dodge at the same time. Jesus beam goes through dodge roll, so it's a soft counter in that aspect.

Jesus beam also has a 28m range so it would take 2 Streaks to get out of its range. If I'm getting beamed by someone while above 50% HP, it's bearable. If I'm just below 50% HP, I will actually block heal with Vigor instead and Streak at the last tick of the beam.

I know Static. But come on. You know that he is reaching. Lol.

Yes that's why I said it's a soft counter, as in it can be counterplayed. A hard counter would be very hard to to counter play lol.

Jierdanit · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes that's why I said it's a soft counter, as in it can be counterplayed. A hard counter would be very hard to to counter play lol.

If you're in the situation you described, then yeah you can counterplay it.

If you get a plar continuously beaming you at like 30-40% you can do almost nothing on sorc, cause you basically can't block and heal.

StaticWave · July 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes that's why I said it's a soft counter, as in it can be counterplayed. A hard counter would be very hard to to counter play lol.

If you're in the situation you described, then yeah you can counterplay it.

If you get a plar continuously beaming you at like 30-40% you can do almost nothing on sorc, cause you basically can't block and heal.

Yes, which is an issue of sorc having no burst heal.

Bushido2513 · July 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes that's why I said it's a soft counter, as in it can be counterplayed. A hard counter would be very hard to to counter play lol.

If you're in the situation you described, then yeah you can counterplay it.

If you get a plar continuously beaming you at like 30-40% you can do almost nothing on sorc, cause you basically can't block and heal.

How many times have I eaten the balorgh meteor into the javelin into the beam and been like oh well please insert actual heals to continue

Jierdanit · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes that's why I said it's a soft counter, as in it can be counterplayed. A hard counter would be very hard to to counter play lol.

If you're in the situation you described, then yeah you can counterplay it.

If you get a plar continuously beaming you at like 30-40% you can do almost nothing on sorc, cause you basically can't block and heal.

Yes, which is an issue of sorc having no burst heal.

Yeah, the main reason Beam is so good against sorc is that you got no real burst heal.
Still means that it's very good against a sorc using streak, even if that isn't just because it's good against streak itself.

illusiouk · July 2023

It seems people get wasted by a class and then shout they want to nerf that class. Its bad enough everyone seems to use detect potions but now want to attack the costs of our stealth skill. Good players can take the surprise attacks from NB's, good players can unstealth a NB etc. NB is no where near as strong as it was years ago. In PvP where most are playing tanks, see how good NB's are when using all their arsenal and they are just tickling a tank.

DrNukenstein · July 2023

On cloak and shadow image, shadow image is not a get out of jail free card. It is an investment in an escape route and also a a very high "headspace" move

You can drop a shade on the way to the hit, do the hit and shade out. That's great. You also have to make sure you stay in range of the shade, and if you have to go 10 meters out of range to land the hit that's 10 meters you have to go to get back in range to shade out. That's time for it to get countered and time where it's not doing you any good.

No one has ever mentioned putting a trap under a shade, but damn does that get me when it happens.

The best, and IMO greatest trick in the nightblade arsenal is the "goose chase". Drop shade, roll, sprint, shade out when they catch up. Pulling it off makes you feel like a genius. It's not easy though. It doesn't just move you to safety. You have to have the forethought to do it before it's too late, and even then that's a couple seconds where they're trying to kill you while you're trying to pull off your trick.

Note: Shade can be made considerably lower headspace with an addon that tracks range and direction. Still doesn't make it instant peel like mist or streak.