Revert the class burst heal from NB

boi_anachronism_

pedrogonzalez wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Every decent PvPer in the game knows NB is overtuned.

Ah, now I see why there is 7 of 10 players are dks! Thank you!

This is a .1% pvper who sees this in their circles and is talking from that perspect pretty obviously. Not rhe overwhelming majority of us that deal with deathless dks and wardens. Most nightblade played in pvp are gankers with the minority being brawlers. I have never once come across this build nor spoken to pvpers that saw it as an overwhelming issue. This is the first I have ever even seen this brought up. Nothing has ever been said in any of the groups that i know that pvp on the ps severs that tells you plenty.

Alienoutlaw

i have zero problems killing NB's

StaticWave

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

i have zero problems killing NB's

Try fighting decent ones who aren't gankers?

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

That's for the Devs to work out.

Ultimately, PVE is not going to be sacrificed simply because you're the master of a lesser played PVP domain.

Part of asking for changes, is coming up with either reasonable or appealing suggestions.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is literally one of most broken specs in PvP now. NB used to be a high risk, high reward class who deals unmatched burst damage at the cost of being squishy. Now, not only does it still deal unmatched burst damage, but it's also one of the tankiest specs in the game.

Most NBs now just camp Refreshing Path with Vigor + Dark Cloak ticking and pop a Healthy Offering if they are low. It's no longer a squishy & high burst class. It's a tanky & high burst class and that's not balanced.

ZOS, please remove the burst heal spammable from this class. You've turned it into another generic sit and face tank class that has essentially zero drawbacks (other than facing a DK who's on another level of brokenness)

Nb is an untouchable god mode pvp class

Your post is as pointless as me asking for mag sorc buffs.

For nb to receive nerfs certain conditions need to align and those are no way related to actual class performance itself

PhoenixGrey

[snip]

NB has all the tools with close to zero learning curve to become a unkillable killing machine

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

That's for the Devs to work out.

Ultimately, PVE is not going to be sacrificed simply because you're the master of a lesser played PVP domain.

Part of asking for changes, is coming up with either reasonable or appealing suggestions.

So far I've been unimpressed with your conduct in your thread. Take that as feedback on how to win friends and influence people.

I don't really care if you are unimpressed, nor do I care to win "friends" online. I have friends in real life that know who I am, and that's good enough for me.

Don't want to see me talk about being good? Don't try to throw backhanded insults and attempt to mock my experience level. Don't come into my thread telling me to l2p when I probably have more PvP experience than you (not specifically talking about you, just generalizing), and I will be respectful. You get what you give, and it goes both ways.

It's arrogant to say that PvE won't be sacrificed for PvP, when PvP has been sacrificed for PvE. Crit Chance was nerfed due to PvE, and that affected PvP significantly. Buffs were made for PvE, and that caused some classes to be over-tuned in PvP. So no, I am going to continue pushing for changes until PvP becomes better.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

[snip]

NB has all the tools with close to zero learning curve to become a unkillable killing machine

Tbh, it's pretty pointless to make a thread about nb and sorcs on the forums. It's the 2 classes that people will refuse to admit its strengths and weaknesses.

[edited to remove quote]

Alchimiste1

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

PhoenixGrey

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

That's for the Devs to work out.

Ultimately, PVE is not going to be sacrificed simply because you're the master of a lesser played PVP domain.

Part of asking for changes, is coming up with either reasonable or appealing suggestions.

[snip]

We all put time and $$ into this game. That gives us the right to ask whatever nerf or buff we want.


[edited quote]

PhoenixGrey

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

It’s the hardest class to kill open world with the correct use of shade and cloak. I cannot imagine a well players nb ever dying in open world pvp. It shouldn’t be possible to lock you down if you play your 2 button defense correctly

And on top of that I have to always be on a lookout for the kiss of death which hits you for 15k at minimum. There are zero counters to it in a 1vX atleast for a sorc.

Problem is there are only a few competent NB’s in this entire game.

Most nb mains over complicate the class to the even understand that it is the best class in open world pvp.

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

I watched a 40k HP EP Warden healer kite 10 ADs with Mist Form. Recorded it too. He was at it for a solid 10 minutes and people gave up. Aside from the fact that he’s a 40k HP healer, what really allowed him to survive that long was utilizing Falcon Swiftness with near maximum movement speed and Elusive Mist Form to mimic a Sorc while having much better heals.

A NB also has that in the form of Path and Elusive Mist Form. Phantasmal Escape if you want the snare cleanse. I think it’s fair to say that if a NB wished to kite people like that Warden, or at least come close to it, he could absolutely do that. So imo, no issue in terms of survivability. Speed is king in OW, and NB already has the movement speed tools for that. Whether people decide to sacrifice 1 slot for Mist Form or not, idk.

Alchimiste1

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

I watched a 40k HP EP Warden healer kite 10 ADs with Mist Form. Recorded it too. He was at it for a solid 10 minutes and people gave up. Aside from the fact that he’s a 40k HP healer, what really allowed him to survive that long was utilizing Falcon Swiftness with near maximum movement speed and Elusive Mist Form to mimic a Sorc while having much better heals.

A NB also has that in the form of Path and Elusive Mist Form. Phantasmal Escape if you want the snare cleanse. I think it’s fair to say that if a NB wished to kite people like that Warden, or at least come close to it, he could absolutely do that. So imo, no issue in terms of survivability. Speed is king in OW, and NB already has the movement speed tools for that. Whether people decide to sacrifice 1 slot for Mist Form or not, idk.

You won't have bar space for mist without giving up something important (reason you don't see hybrid blades slotting shadow image). Path does not heal for a lot it's close to minor life steal. That being said the secondary effects of path are too good to pass. Dark cloak is great healing ability in 1v1s but not worth it OW. In my experience I had an easier time playing solo on the proc stamsorc with maras balm last patch that I did on rallying nb.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Nb isn't particularly tanky outside of 1v1s. I think in the current state of the game there is no reason to remove healthy offering. Especially because there are so many Vates, masters dw builds out there in OW.

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

I watched a 40k HP EP Warden healer kite 10 ADs with Mist Form. Recorded it too. He was at it for a solid 10 minutes and people gave up. Aside from the fact that he’s a 40k HP healer, what really allowed him to survive that long was utilizing Falcon Swiftness with near maximum movement speed and Elusive Mist Form to mimic a Sorc while having much better heals.

A NB also has that in the form of Path and Elusive Mist Form. Phantasmal Escape if you want the snare cleanse. I think it’s fair to say that if a NB wished to kite people like that Warden, or at least come close to it, he could absolutely do that. So imo, no issue in terms of survivability. Speed is king in OW, and NB already has the movement speed tools for that. Whether people decide to sacrifice 1 slot for Mist Form or not, idk.

You won't have bar space for mist without giving up something important (reason you don't see hybrid blades slotting shadow image). Path does not heal for a lot it's close to minor life steal. That being said the secondary effects of path are too good to pass. Dark cloak is great healing ability in 1v1s but not worth it OW. In my experience I had an easier time playing solo on the proc stamsorc with maras balm last patch that I did on rallying nb.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Nb isn't particularly tanky outside of 1v1s. I think in the current state of the game there is no reason to remove healthy offering. Especially because there are so many Vates, masters dw builds out there in OW.

Mara’s balm is an outlier set and should make every class tankier though.

What skill would a hybrid blade be willing to give up for Mist?

boi_anachronism_

Your not going to get a nerf with such a miniscule group of people with this issue relative to what it would do to the class across the board in all content which you are obviously not considering. Just admit where you are coming from. Its a .01% problem. I will reiterate: the overwhelming majority do not come across this build and have no issues killing blades in pvp especially with the overwhelming amount of dks and wardens. In fact the major nerf that is constantly called for is stealth which i support to a degree. It should have ramping cost relative to cast. How many patches have dks been overpowered and people been asking for nerfs? A lot. It has still not happened. Dk has been king across the board for ages. And this is with the general experience of players not a tiny fraction of a fraction. You want to ask for it? Go ahead. You will get as much traction as pve endgamers when they ask for a change.. probably less. I find it also pretty confusing that at multiple points you compare it to other much more ubiquitous and way more broken specs. So what we are really saying here is that 3 classes are broken and we are here asking to nerf the one that is the least used and not the most egregious where it would completely trash the class for everything from trial portal dds to healers to solo overland.

Heresyall

Bowsorc has been the best dueling spec against players without mara for 1 year now I believe ? I think streak shouldn't exist in the current state of the game

StaticWave

Heresyall wrote: »

Bowsorc has been the best dueling spec against players without mara for 1 year now I believe ? I think streak shouldn't exist in the current state of the game

Sure, I’ll slot Mist Form then lol

NyassaV

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

You also realize that any class can make good use out of rally so arguing about a burst heal is slightly silly.

Why can't nightblades just use rally then?

Many do?

Turtle_Bot

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

That's for the Devs to work out.

Ultimately, PVE is not going to be sacrificed simply because you're the master of a lesser played PVP domain.

Part of asking for changes, is coming up with either reasonable or appealing suggestions.

[snip]

Unfortunately the devs take over a year to realise what their changes do to the game because instead of listening to the player-base who are telling them as much, they prefer to wait for a years worth of "Live server data" to show them exactly what the player-base has been telling them for over a year since the change was made on the PTS.

I agree that part of asking for changes is coming up with reasonable or appealing suggestions, but given the feedback from the devs and other forum commentors on mine and others numerous sorc threads over the past year that were asking for fixes to the class including making no-pet builds viable again, to fix sorc healing (including specific proposed solutions that were strong but had significant drawbacks to keep them balanced) and update sorcs passives and improve the class's access to basic and necessary buffs/debuffs.

I'll give you a couple of examples of the many I've encountered on the forums here when requesting/proposing reasonable changes to help Sorcerer in PvP:

I proposed that dark conversion/dark deal be made instant cast. Multiple trade offs for gaining this buff were proposed, including:
- much lower resource restore.
- the delay on heal/sustain was kept so overall time to heal/sustain was the same, it just couldn't be interrupted/denied.
- a much shorter cast time (0.3-0.6s instead of the current 1s to significantly lower it's counter play and allow weaving).
- the heal was made strong and sustain kept, but streak lost its stun and instead snared.

All of these options for improving sorcs healing for PvP to a more suitable level were completely crapped on by the majority of commenters crying that it would make sorc more OP than the current state of DK.

The other example:
I proposed adding major prophecy/savagery (a basic/standard buff all classes should inherently have) to lightning form/morphs.
Sorc struggles for bar space and mag is already removing lightning form for chudan to make room for camo hunter/inner light. This doesn't affect PvE since it's a basic buff that should be available to all classes and PvE has the room for inner light/camo hunter + hurricane (or oaken + hurricane), but it allows for better build diversity for sorcerers that are struggling massively with such in both PvE and PvP.
It also better ties in crit surge as a HoT for the class, something the class is really struggling with currently.

Once again, this suggestion of adding a standard synergistic named buff was met with cries of "this will make sorc more OP than DK", etc etc etc....

What was interesting to note though, the majority of the complaints/crying was from NB "mains" crying about sorc being OP like its still 2018 ESO...

Most of the comments crying about sorc also spouted a huge amount of misinformation (or straight up lies) about the class. Just see the previous comments about stamsorcs using pets (and sorcs in general using liquid lightning) in PvP.

This feedback from the forum commenters was on top of the dev team completely ignoring sorcs plights in PvP (and no pet/no HA sorcs plights for PvE) and the dev team saying that they think sorc is fine as it was (for context, they said this for U35/36 sorc), essentially saying that being a crap class that is only semi-strong using generic proc/HA builds that play the class for you that all classes can also use just as well, is fine and that sorc players should just accept that their class is going to be crap because they aren't going to do anything to fix the class's issues.

This is also compounded by the dev team pushing through changes to sorcs that were not asked for and, for the most part, did nothing to fix the issues with the class. The server upgrades and Mara's Balm have done more to help sorcerer remain playable than the buffs given by the dev team ever did and because of these unnecessary and not asked for buffs, when the dev team finally gets around to actually fixing sorcs issues, it will be very strong and will immediately get nerfed again leaving it in an even more unplayable state than before...

Honestly, everyone on the forums is guilty of bad conduct when it comes to threads proposing changes to abilities that need changing, especially when it comes to anything to do with buffing/fixing sorcerers.
Even explanations on pain points that propose reasonable and balanced changes to help the class, it gets shouted down. It's not something unique to this thread and it's something that is far too commonly aimed at sorcerer players who want to see their class be more than just a proc stacking + Mara's Balm build for PvP or an Oakensoul HA or zookeeper build for PvE.

---

To the commenter stating stamsorcs use pets, this is only true in PVE, pet sorc is the only viable sorc build in PVE.
The same with liquid lighning, that is a skill that is also only used in PVE and barely even used then with pets, barbed trap, hurricane, wall of elements, elemental susceptibility, carve and stampede being much better DoTs than liquid lightning.

When it comes to PvP, pets are really bad and are more often a liability/detriment to the player instead of helping them, especially when going up against better (more skilled) players.
Pets only do decent in 3 specific scenarios:
1. A niche 1v1 cheese dueling build or
2. Against new players in low level (newbie) BGs.
3. Atro specifically for group major berserk in organized raid groups.
They are a liability everywhere else in PvP.
- Their low (20k) health
- Horrendous (suicidal) AI
- They take up 2 bar slots instead of just 1
- Most of all, the interruptible cast (channel) time required to re-summon them during which the class has no healing at all.
To top it all off, they can't proc crit surge or blood magics healing, they don't proc sets, and they are big targets that scream "pop me with plaguebreak to wipe this zerg around me".

For those who are unsure why the cast time on summoning pets is such an issue, I've done the math on other threads multiple times now, but if the summon of the matriarch is interrupted, the class is left without a heal for a full 8 seconds. That is a complete death sentence in PvP, it's also why you will see good players focus down the bird when they face a sorc running pets, because without the bird the sorc is a sitting duck. Worst case scenario, the sorc is forced to spam their heals (a costly practice at 4600 magicka per cast) to keep the bird alive, which means the sorc isn't applying any pressure at all and draining their own resources faster than if they were to streak to run away from the fight.

This is still an issue with dark deal, although to a lesser extent (it's only 5 seconds without a heal instead of 8), but that is still really bad design for what is supposed to be a fundamental defensive tool. It would be fine if other classes had to deal with this issue or if block healing wasn't so strong defensively as well, but all other classes have instant cast burst heals that take up 1 bar slot that can be cast while blocking that also cannot be denied outside of specific niche healing denial effects that can be purged.

[edited quote]

Turtle_Bot

Heresyall wrote: »

Bowsorc has been the best dueling spec against players without mara for 1 year now I believe ? I think streak shouldn't exist in the current state of the game

Bowsorc has only recently returned with relequen/WoF and is only back because it's found a new generic proc stack build that works somewhat similar to the old savage werewolf build. All through U35/36 the spec was non-existent outside of a few stamsorc mains (I only know of 1-2) who clung onto the class trying to make the unworkable work.

If streak is not allowed to exist then invis, shade teleport and mist form should also be removed from the game and sorc should be given a reliable burst heal on par with offering. While we are at it, NB should also be forced to choose between major and minor expedition or at least be forced to run an out of class skill to get access to both just like sorc does.
Fair is fair, if sorcs not allowed to be unique, which it barely is even now, then NB shouldn't be unique either and we should all just be the same generic tank + proc set classes with the same generic build with a different colour on our effects.

HidesInPlainSight

If ZoS could actually fix their servers and bugs in their game Nightblades would not be so annoying to fight. Right now Steam client has sound bugs, that cut out sound so Bow Procs sounds are almost never being played. Their changes to stealth around Deadlands DLC was a step backwards in pulling NB's out of stealth, and Evil Hunter is all but useless, you have better chance to detect, NB's by using an AOE with a direct damage aspect, or be forced to use a revealing pot.

The desync is gotten so much worse after Necrom dropped. Just earlier today, it got so bad, multiple of us dueling could not revive and had to restart clients to be able to regain control of our characters after a massive desync.

MetallicMonk

NyassaV wrote: »

Many do?

Your post argued that nightblades need to have access to a class spammable burst heal, while also saying that complaining about a burst heal doesn't make sense because everyone has access to rally.

I don't really have a stake in this thread but do you not see how that is a bit ironic?

PhoenixGrey

Heresyall wrote: »

Bowsorc has been the best dueling spec against players without mara for 1 year now I believe ? I think streak shouldn't exist in the current state of the game

NB is probably the only class in this game which is straight up invincible.

NB is tankier than a dk
NB is more mobile than sorc
NB has more burst damage than all the pvp classes in the game combined

It should be impossible to lose a duel on nb when properly played

PhoenixGrey

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

. How many patches have dks been overpowered and people been asking for nerfs? A lot. It has still not happened. Dk has been king across the board for ages..

This is completely false

There is nothing which dk can do which nb can’t do better

The problem is NB mains don’t know how to play their own class and finding a competent nb is a rarity in this game

StaticWave

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Many do?

Your post argued that nightblades need to have access to a class spammable burst heal, while also saying that complaining about a burst heal doesn't make sense because everyone has access to rally.

I don't really have a stake in this thread but do you not see how that is a bit ironic?

I think we all know the answer why NBs don't want to use Rally lol.

1) Can't use DW/Ice for maximum damage potential
2) Can't spam Rally like Healthy Offering
3) Can't get Minor Mending for all heals
4) Can't split sustain between stam and mag

Weckless

Im all in for supporting your sorc buffs but due to the changes to other hots nb previously crutched on if they take away the burst heal they will be in a worse place healing wise than sorc. If they revert dark cloak to a useable state and made the bow heal have a tooltip and heal even when it misses then i guess we can talk about the burst heal lol. Tbh i think the biggest issue with it is the split cost. It makes the heal extremely cheap for a dot that is basically offset by health regen lol

Dovahmiim

TybaltKaine wrote: »

If you're supposed to be this top tier player, how can you not know that the easiest way to counter a tank blade on a stam sorc is to drop silence on them? That doesn't add up. The Tank blade set up you keep arguing against is all magicka, every bit of it except the burst heal, which, pro tip, deals a self-dot after you use it, so you have a burst window to kill the NB after they pop it and while they are silenced (remember, we don't have shields, and all of our self-preservation are mag based).

The issue I have is that you make these posts every day about how this or that is broken, and when people point out that, oh in fact it isn't and can be countered, you get dismissive and claim that those counters don't work (even when they do) and then dig into your argument despite it being proven wrong.

And yeah, I PVE, but guess what, I PVP every weekend too. You don't know me because I do my job. I gank folks and leave. I don't care about emp, and I don't score chase. I play solo, AD, bounce around every campaign. If my faction is losing, I hop on, turn a couple of resources while y'all are sieging some random keep, drop a "Lucky Raven"(my "guild" that is just me and my wife) claim on it and leave.

Chances are I've probably saved you multiple times in PVP and you never even knew about it.

But, yeah. I'm just a scrub you've never heard of, just like I want to be.

Tell me you've never stepped foot outside large group pvp, without TELLING me you've never stepped foot outside large group pvp. This was way too funny.

NB is definitely OP, but idk if I'd rather have a good NB on me that I can counterplay, or a good stamsorc running a proc pressure build. I agree that the best burst class should NOT have a burst heal, that was a decision by ZOS to raise the floor as usual, but idk if it's highest on the list of problematic builds in open world and 1v1s.

Weckless

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'd agree with you static if this was the old eso, but as things currently stand, with the amount of dumb ways to do damage with dot/procs I don't think removing healthy offering would be a good thing. The hybrid blade can be tanky in 1v1s but honestly, it's still squishy OW. At least compared to other classes besides sorc

It’s the hardest class to kill open world with the correct use of shade and cloak. I cannot imagine a well players nb ever dying in open world pvp. It shouldn’t be possible to lock you down if you play your 2 button defense correctly

And on top of that I have to always be on a lookout for the kiss of death which hits you for 15k at minimum. There are zero counters to it in a 1vX atleast for a sorc.

Problem is there are only a few competent NB’s in this entire game.

Most nb mains over complicate the class to the even understand that it is the best class in open world pvp.

[snip] If NB is so op and impossible to die on then why don't you prove it. Post a clip of ONE 1vX and ill shut up [snip]

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

Weckless wrote: »

Im all in for supporting your sorc buffs but due to the changes to other hots nb previously crutched on if they take away the burst heal they will be in a worse place healing wise than sorc. If they revert dark cloak to a useable state and made the bow heal have a tooltip and heal even when it misses then i guess we can talk about the burst heal lol. Tbh i think the biggest issue with it is the split cost. It makes the heal extremely cheap for a dot that is basically offset by health regen lol

I would be ok with NB having better HoTs tbh

Meurto

I can't say I disagree with the OP and I play NB. I think any healing that takes you from near death to full health is a problem, but then again I think the real problem is healing not scaling of its own unique stat.... a topic for another discussion I think.