New Mist Form and easy access to movement speed killed Sorc identity

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

“Each class has advantages and disadvantages”, your words.

Yet you also said “This topic is intended to only make the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation from everyone and only the sorcerer can escape”

I find these 2 statements to be extremely contradicting. You admitted that Sorc and Necro have their advantages and disadvantages, which is Streak/high mobility for Sorc and Resistant Flesh/good healing for Necro. But when I made a thread asking for Mist Form to be removed and movement speed harder to get for Sorc to regain their disappearing advantage, you threw a huge fist at me saying I only want my class to have a teleportation skill?

Using your logic, I want a burst heal given to my class. I don’t see why it’s fair that EVERY CLASS has a decent burst heal, but Sorc is the only class that doesn’t.

Good healing? Seriously?? Direct healing fits into the necromnt mechanic but you really need 5-6k healing given the fact that you can easily get it from the Restoration Staff branch. And the sorcerer's mana shields are more effective. You tore a phrase out of my answer and argue that I am against it when I just don't give a damn about it. I am opposed to the mist form being destroyed.

If you want direct healing, then you do not need to assert that the mist form must somehow be corrected or destroyed, [snip]

[edited for flaming]

OBJnoob

Well. My comment on everything I just read is pretty simple. I agree Streak isn't really the run away morph. And so that's why I keep suggesting maybe adding additional benefits to ball of lightning.

As for the video... Yeah, that particular guy wasn't that fast. Still though it's easy to nitpick a video for details but I think the video was a decent demonstration. If I need to make it make more sense I only have to use my own memories. My magden I recently played could keep pace with a streaking sorc and my magden had almost zero commitment to speed. I used my in class major expedition and was probably wearing 1 or 2 pieces of medium armor. Couldn't always catch the sorcs, but would literally match them in speed where my beetles would constantly hit them from behind. So I already know this is true and don't need to nitpick the video.

Vulkunne

Not at all.

Battle Spirit nerf to your shields as well as almost total lacking of a burst heal killed you identity. Your troubles began long before this was ever thought of.

Vampire needed this, let them have it.

Melzo

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. My comment on everything I just read is pretty simple. I agree Streak isn't really the run away morph. And so that's why I keep suggesting maybe adding additional benefits to ball of lightning.

As for the video... Yeah, that particular guy wasn't that fast. Still though it's easy to nitpick a video for details but I think the video was a decent demonstration. If I need to make it make more sense I only have to use my own memories. My magden I recently played could keep pace with a streaking sorc and my magden had almost zero commitment to speed. I used my in class major expedition and was probably wearing 1 or 2 pieces of medium armor. Couldn't always catch the sorcs, but would literally match them in speed where my beetles would constantly hit them from behind. So I already know this is true and don't need to nitpick the video.

He has a very strange argument, given that the 30% speedup has been around for a very long time. Whether it's the patch that came out with Warden or the patches that came before, the haste buff has been around for a long time.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

That is an HP sorc build. That person was using Chudan because bar space is an issue on sorc. If you want to survive on Sorc this patch you need Vigor and Crit Surge, both take up 2 slots. In fact, the mag version of the build (Rallying/Wretched) also doesn’t run Major Expedition from Boundless Storm because bar space is an issue.

If you want Boundless, you’re going to drop either Vigor or Ele Sus, both of which are needed.

This makes sense and for me I always sacrifice for speed or play near favorable terrain because I'm usually solo and therefore outnumbered.

Still it's just what you said because even with sacrifices for speed I'm nowhere near where sorc used to be with streak and it does cost me fights where skill can't really close that particular gap.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. My comment on everything I just read is pretty simple. I agree Streak isn't really the run away morph. And so that's why I keep suggesting maybe adding additional benefits to ball of lightning.

As for the video... Yeah, that particular guy wasn't that fast. Still though it's easy to nitpick a video for details but I think the video was a decent demonstration. If I need to make it make more sense I only have to use my own memories. My magden I recently played could keep pace with a streaking sorc and my magden had almost zero commitment to speed. I used my in class major expedition and was probably wearing 1 or 2 pieces of medium armor. Couldn't always catch the sorcs, but would literally match them in speed where my beetles would constantly hit them from behind. So I already know this is true and don't need to nitpick the video.

He has a very strange argument, given that the 30% speedup has been around for a very long time. Whether it's the patch that came out with Warden or the patches that came before, the haste buff has been around for a long time.

I also didn’t use my Streak or a Gap Closer. It’s almost like you didn’t read what I said lol.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

“Each class has advantages and disadvantages”, your words.

Yet you also said “This topic is intended to only make the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation from everyone and only the sorcerer can escape”

I find these 2 statements to be extremely contradicting. You admitted that Sorc and Necro have their advantages and disadvantages, which is Streak/high mobility for Sorc and Resistant Flesh/good healing for Necro. But when I made a thread asking for Mist Form to be removed and movement speed harder to get for Sorc to regain their disappearing advantage, you threw a huge fist at me saying I only want my class to have a teleportation skill?

Using your logic, I want a burst heal given to my class. I don’t see why it’s fair that EVERY CLASS has a decent burst heal, but Sorc is the only class that doesn’t.

Good healing? Seriously?? Direct healing fits into the necromnt mechanic but you really need 5-6k healing given the fact that you can easily get it from the Restoration Staff branch. And the sorcerer's mana shields are more effective. You tore a phrase out of my answer and argue that I am against it when I just don't give a damn about it. I am opposed to the mist form being destroyed.

If you want direct healing, then you do not need to assert that the mist form must somehow be corrected or destroyed, [snip]

[edited for flaming]

Let me rephrase my argument once more:

If everyone can have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of Sorc, then I want Sorc to have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of other classes. Don't even bring Blessing of Restoration into this, because 1) You have to slot Resto staff, and 2) Blessing of Restoration does not give 3 overloaded buffs like Mist Form, and 3) It costs more than class burst heal.

If Sorc is not allowed to have a burst heal similar to other classes, then remove Mist Form and easy access to movement speed to make it fair.

My argument is that simple. Idk how else I have to word it lol.

OBJnoob

Edited because something if started to write a long time ago was still here somehow and I deleted it

Melzo wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. My comment on everything I just read is pretty simple. I agree Streak isn't really the run away morph. And so that's why I keep suggesting maybe adding additional benefits to ball of lightning.

As for the video... Yeah, that particular guy wasn't that fast. Still though it's easy to nitpick a video for details but I think the video was a decent demonstration. If I need to make it make more sense I only have to use my own memories. My magden I recently played could keep pace with a streaking sorc and my magden had almost zero commitment to speed. I used my in class major expedition and was probably wearing 1 or 2 pieces of medium armor. Couldn't always catch the sorcs, but would literally match them in speed where my beetles would constantly hit them from behind. So I already know this is true and don't need to nitpick the video.

He has a very strange argument, given that the 30% speedup has been around for a very long time. Whether it's the patch that came out with Warden or the patches that came before, the haste buff has been around for a long time.

I don't think his argument is that strange. Movement speed in general has gotten so fast that streak/BoL no longer outpaces it. You're right that major expedition has been in the game for as long as I can remember. But it wasn't until the Psijic skill line came around that basically everyone had access to it. And the wild hunt mythic, and the swift jewelry trait, and a couple of classes having access to minor expedition. All of this is new-ish. And if sorcs could compete with certain classes it wouldn't be a problem perhaps but since they really can't compete with DKs and NBs they badly need the ability to stay at range.

It's fine to disagree, but I don't see what's strange about the argument.

NordSwordnBoard

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

“Each class has advantages and disadvantages”, your words.

Yet you also said “This topic is intended to only make the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation from everyone and only the sorcerer can escape”

I find these 2 statements to be extremely contradicting. You admitted that Sorc and Necro have their advantages and disadvantages, which is Streak/high mobility for Sorc and Resistant Flesh/good healing for Necro. But when I made a thread asking for Mist Form to be removed and movement speed harder to get for Sorc to regain their disappearing advantage, you threw a huge fist at me saying I only want my class to have a teleportation skill?

Using your logic, I want a burst heal given to my class. I don’t see why it’s fair that EVERY CLASS has a decent burst heal, but Sorc is the only class that doesn’t.

Good healing? Seriously?? Direct healing fits into the necromnt mechanic but you really need 5-6k healing given the fact that you can easily get it from the Restoration Staff branch. And the sorcerer's mana shields are more effective. You tore a phrase out of my answer and argue that I am against it when I just don't give a damn about it. I am opposed to the mist form being destroyed.

If you want direct healing, then you do not need to assert that the mist form must somehow be corrected or destroyed, [snip]

[edited for flaming]

Let me rephrase my argument once more:

If everyone can have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of Sorc, then I want Sorc to have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of other classes. Don't even bring Blessing of Restoration into this, because 1) You have to slot Resto staff, and 2) Blessing of Restoration does not give 3 overloaded buffs like Mist Form, and 3) It costs more than class burst heal.

If Sorc is not allowed to have a burst heal similar to other classes, then remove Mist Form and easy access to movement speed to make it fair.

My argument is that simple. Idk how else I have to word it lol.

I'd say just adjust player speed across the board - the server already has apparent desynch issues with speedy players, maybe if we all lost some base speed its not as bad? You could use battle spirit to adjust player speed. All the speed skills, buffs, traits etc. will then become more valuable if you want to be fast.
You could also adjust medium armor, the one with zero drawbacks. Although I don't think medium is the prime suspect here, more of an accomplice.
I sorc but also use necro with mist form. I would love to be able to block cast dark deal, or have the heal be increased to compensate for the channel. With the exception of not being able to mount and running between battles, I'd probably be OK with a sizeable speed nerf to base speed.

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

“Each class has advantages and disadvantages”, your words.

Yet you also said “This topic is intended to only make the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation from everyone and only the sorcerer can escape”

I find these 2 statements to be extremely contradicting. You admitted that Sorc and Necro have their advantages and disadvantages, which is Streak/high mobility for Sorc and Resistant Flesh/good healing for Necro. But when I made a thread asking for Mist Form to be removed and movement speed harder to get for Sorc to regain their disappearing advantage, you threw a huge fist at me saying I only want my class to have a teleportation skill?

Using your logic, I want a burst heal given to my class. I don’t see why it’s fair that EVERY CLASS has a decent burst heal, but Sorc is the only class that doesn’t.

Good healing? Seriously?? Direct healing fits into the necromnt mechanic but you really need 5-6k healing given the fact that you can easily get it from the Restoration Staff branch. And the sorcerer's mana shields are more effective. You tore a phrase out of my answer and argue that I am against it when I just don't give a damn about it. I am opposed to the mist form being destroyed.

If you want direct healing, then you do not need to assert that the mist form must somehow be corrected or destroyed, [snip]

[edited for flaming]

Let me rephrase my argument once more:

If everyone can have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of Sorc, then I want Sorc to have access to a skill similar to a core defensive skill of other classes. Don't even bring Blessing of Restoration into this, because 1) You have to slot Resto staff, and 2) Blessing of Restoration does not give 3 overloaded buffs like Mist Form, and 3) It costs more than class burst heal.

If Sorc is not allowed to have a burst heal similar to other classes, then remove Mist Form and easy access to movement speed to make it fair.

My argument is that simple. Idk how else I have to word it lol.

Let them add. Am I against it? I don't want mist form to fit the sorcerer because it's a general skill. My necromancer does not have acceleration skills and I take them from general skills, my necromancer does not have skills that allow teleporting to the enemy like when using the dk chain, but there is a similar skill in a two-handed weapon. You and your chat mate are suggesting to strengthen the sorcerer and in most cases these are crazy ideas as they either make the sorcerer too strong or simply destroy certain gameplay. I wrote my proposal. But yours is so absurd that even after all your suggestions, they still did not remove the delay of the exchanger, but added two minor buffs. Why did they do that?? Because the sorcerer would have opened all the doors in pvp and there was no point in playing with other classes. Each class has limitations and with the addition of direct healing, the sorcerer automatically became the strongest class in the game. I just do not know how to kill the sorcerer after that. For me, among all the opponents, the hybrid sorcerer represents the greatest danger. And the only way to kill him is to somehow catch him and interrupt his combo chain so that he goes into defense. When the sorcerer goes into defense, he does not hold a blow well, and only then can the sorcerer be killed.

I have written on other topics on the sorcerer for a long time because you yourself spoil your class with many ideas such as mana shield will depend on spell damage. I didn’t stop just doing something to write there because I didn’t see the point. They will strengthen the sorcerer with direct healing or make the shield depend on all attacking characteristics. I frankly don't care. But I don't like you transferring your class problems to general skills. A vampire is far from being the best light. As many as three skills are useless garbage. But you want to throw one more skill in the trash.

Bushido2513

Melzo wrote: »

Let them add. Am I against it? I don't want mist form to fit the sorcerer because it's a general skill. My necromancer does not have acceleration skills and I take them from general skills, my necromancer does not have skills that allow teleporting to the enemy like when using the dk chain, but there is a similar skill in a two-handed weapon. You and your chat mate are suggesting to strengthen the sorcerer and in most cases these are crazy ideas as they either make the sorcerer too strong or simply destroy certain gameplay. I wrote my proposal. But yours is so absurd that even after all your suggestions, they still did not remove the delay of the exchanger, but added two minor buffs. Why did they do that?? Because the sorcerer would have opened all the doors in pvp and there was no point in playing with other classes. Each class has limitations and with the addition of direct healing, the sorcerer automatically became the strongest class in the game. I just do not know how to kill the sorcerer after that. For me, among all the opponents, the hybrid sorcerer represents the greatest danger. And the only way to kill him is to somehow catch him and interrupt his combo chain so that he goes into defense. When the sorcerer goes into defense, he does not hold a blow well, and only then can the sorcerer be killed.

I have written on other topics on the sorcerer for a long time because you yourself spoil your class with many ideas such as mana shield will depend on spell damage. I didn’t stop just doing something to write there because I didn’t see the point. They will strengthen the sorcerer with direct healing or make the shield depend on all attacking characteristics. I frankly don't care. But I don't like you transferring your class problems to general skills. A vampire is far from being the best light. As many as three skills are useless garbage. But you want to throw one more skill in the trash.

Lol you're missing something if you think a burst heal will make sorc automatically better than DK, NB, or even Warden. Templar and Necro are in weird places right now but even still a burst heal on sorc would just make things even. You're saying it like he wants everything, burst heal, speed removed from others, mistform gone. He's saying he'd like a good trade off.

Basically sorc should be a hit and run class with mediocre healing or at least a potential brawler with good healing. Currently it's somewhat hard to see it as excelling at either.


The vampire skill like needs a rework and I think the idea of mist form is a good one but there are better ways to implement it so that it doesn't seem like an improved ball of lightning. I liked the previous form but I and others were able to use and somewhat abuse it, which also wasn't good.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Let them add. Am I against it? I don't want mist form to fit the sorcerer because it's a general skill. My necromancer does not have acceleration skills and I take them from general skills, my necromancer does not have skills that allow teleporting to the enemy like when using the dk chain, but there is a similar skill in a two-handed weapon. You and your chat mate are suggesting to strengthen the sorcerer and in most cases these are crazy ideas as they either make the sorcerer too strong or simply destroy certain gameplay. I wrote my proposal. But yours is so absurd that even after all your suggestions, they still did not remove the delay of the exchanger, but added two minor buffs. Why did they do that?? Because the sorcerer would have opened all the doors in pvp and there was no point in playing with other classes. Each class has limitations and with the addition of direct healing, the sorcerer automatically became the strongest class in the game. I just do not know how to kill the sorcerer after that. For me, among all the opponents, the hybrid sorcerer represents the greatest danger. And the only way to kill him is to somehow catch him and interrupt his combo chain so that he goes into defense. When the sorcerer goes into defense, he does not hold a blow well, and only then can the sorcerer be killed.

I have written on other topics on the sorcerer for a long time because you yourself spoil your class with many ideas such as mana shield will depend on spell damage. I didn’t stop just doing something to write there because I didn’t see the point. They will strengthen the sorcerer with direct healing or make the shield depend on all attacking characteristics. I frankly don't care. But I don't like you transferring your class problems to general skills. A vampire is far from being the best light. As many as three skills are useless garbage. But you want to throw one more skill in the trash.

Lol you're missing something if you think a burst heal will make sorc automatically better than DK, NB, or even Warden. Templar and Necro are in weird places right now but even still a burst heal on sorc would just make things even. You're saying it like he wants everything, burst heal, speed removed from others, mistform gone. He's saying he'd like a good trade off.

Basically sorc should be a hit and run class with mediocre healing or at least a potential brawler with good healing. Currently it's somewhat hard to see it as excelling at either.


The vampire skill like needs a rework and I think the idea of mist form is a good one but there are better ways to implement it so that it doesn't seem like an improved ball of lightning. I liked the previous form but I and others were able to use and somewhat abuse it, which also wasn't good.

Yea, I specifically said multiple times in this thread and other Sorc threads that I'm willing to trade my sustain for a burst heal. Dark Deal seems to be the perfect candidate. I don't even need the healing to be scalable. All they need to do is remove the cast time, lower the resource return by a significant amount to compensate for the cast time removal, and it's done.

Being able to block cast a pseudo burst heal is more preferred than shield spamming, and it won't make Sorc suddenly OP. Magsorc now has to choose between an instant cast pseudo burst heal with lower resource return or Dark Conversion with normal resource return and a cast time. Stamsorc will now have something to work with and can stay in the fight longer.

LittlePinkDot

Duuuude.... I just saw a mag sorc take on 3 or 4 people in Cyrodiil and won.
They were using streak offensively, streaking through these people and kiting like a pro. It took awhile for him to kill them all but he did it. I'm impressed an inspired to drop endless fury and try streak on my front bar.

OBJnoob

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Duuuude.... I just saw a mag sorc take on 3 or 4 people in Cyrodiil and won.
They were using streak offensively, streaking through these people and kiting like a pro. It took awhile for him to kill them all but he did it. I'm impressed an inspired to drop endless fury and try streak on my front bar.

Streak used offensively has a lot of uses. My favorite way to use it was always with my bow stamsorc. LA Curse, LA Crystal Weapon, LA Ballista (bow Ult,) LA Streak.

Dropping or not dropping Fury is a difficult choice sometimes. I've both used it and not used it. Both had success with it and without it.

Bushido2513

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Duuuude.... I just saw a mag sorc take on 3 or 4 people in Cyrodiil and won.
They were using streak offensively, streaking through these people and kiting like a pro. It took awhile for him to kill them all but he did it. I'm impressed an inspired to drop endless fury and try streak on my front bar.

That's actually not that unusual if the opponents are much weaker than you. But add a mediocre DK and or NB and watch the outcome. And yes fury is more for team play or if you just want to use more of the sorc kit.

To this thread's point streak is usually a staple of any sorc.

Ravenwatch_Warlord

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc's identity has always been the ability to enter or leave a fight at will with Streak/Ball of Lightning and have a fast movement speed. That identity is now gone when every class can slot Mist Form if they want to or stack movement speed with little investment. This does not help that Sorc is also the only class whose healing is not yet updated with the recent meta. Why play sorc when other classes have better healing and can also copy Sorc's identity?

If ZOS's Dev team is not willing to give Sorc a reliable source of healing, then I want Mist Form change reverted and movement speed sources harder to get.

[snip]

As you said : "Sorc's identity has always been the ability to enter or leave a fight at will", and right here this is my problem with sorc streak, streak is probably on the most broken kiting skills I've ever seen in any MOBA or MMO, even ZOS knows it, most pvp veterans know it, but since this is the most played class and the top beginner class they can't make any changes to it and many players including myself we don't even waste our time to ask for a nerf because we know it's not going to happen.

Streak is a 15 meters kite skill with AOE stun that can be spammed and bypass block ... choosing to fight at will is one thing but choosing to leave a fight AT WILL is non sense and what you suggesting here is immortality and I'm not exaggerating, in years of playing ESO pvp I've lost the track of how many sorc we had to ignore because it was impossible to chase them and I'm talking about good veteran sorc players and not any sorc, if they choose to troll, you are done, Shield + streaking 4 5 times which is 75 meters and 1 or 2 restro heavy attack while it's on cooldown and again another 4x streak. No class must be able to choose when to leave a fight at will by spamming one button, and eventually I'm happy that this new Mist Form is here and available to all the classes, combat feels more balanced.and finally my necro is playable again...

It has lower range and speed than streak and no cc, and since you talking too much about the identity, then what about vamp identity? pls take a look at :vampire lore

Long story short I think sorc streak is no class identity but it's about pets and super strong shields, since hybridization and incredible burst damage of sorc and GCD abuse I personally think it's time to nerf streak or buff the other kite skills, and how to fix it ? give sorc more damage mitigations or healings, this is the type of discussion I support to give it more tankiness and heals or buffs but asking to destroy other classes or skill lines to maintain your own strength is absurd and I'm not buying it!

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Again no comment regarding the fact the Arcanists have something better?

I will be honest but this is just starting to sound like a nerf vampires thread.

And I'm coming back to this thread after Necrom dropped to tell you that no, Arcanist's Teleport is crappier than Mist Form.

My statement still stands, Mist Form has robbed Sorc of its last identity in the game.

StaticWave

I am seeing more and more people slot Mist Form on their bar now than before. Last week I witnessed a 40k HP Warden healer kiting what seemed like a group of ADs pugs with Mist Form and Bird of Prey. The Warden not only was tankier than a sorc, but could also clear gaps just like a sorc could. [snip]

So please tell me, why on earth does this make any sense? Giving away an ability like Ball of Lightning to everyone, including the classes that aren't supposed to have it like Warden or DK?

[edited for mild baiting]

Bushido2513

At this point it really doesn't matter, everyone can do the same thing. Also this would have happened with the old mist form so it doesn't really matter about the ability, it's the free speed and snare removal that's the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03FPhx41f2Y

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

I am seeing more and more people slot Mist Form on their bar now than before. Last week I witnessed a 40k HP Warden healer kiting what seemed like a group of ADs pugs with Mist Form and Bird of Prey. The Warden not only was tankier than a sorc, but could also clear gaps just like a sorc could. [snip]

So please tell me, why on earth does this make any sense? Giving away an ability like Ball of Lightning to everyone, including the classes that aren't supposed to have it like Warden or DK?

The previous mist form was even worse. She allowed to survive where it is impossible. Causes various bugs, including the famous bug with DK when he could not get stunned and immortal not only in pvp but also in pve content. The developers have tried to fix this skill by introducing restrictions so that this skill does not work in pve content. But he still remained too strong a skill and at the same time caused a bug. In the end, they decided to change the skill, but instead of offering something, you are trying to remove this skill from the game. [snip] Most players have to lose a skill just because two people are against that skill??

I don't understand the argument that only a sorcerer has the right to enter and leave combat at will. If you attack the enemy and then run away, then why doesn't the enemy have the right to catch up with you? Personally, I was infuriated by the fact that when a sorcerer attacks you and he cannot kill you, he calmly leaves, and when I lose in pvp, I cannot get away from him. Personally, I find it disgusting.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Bushido2513

Melzo wrote: »

I don't understand the argument that only a sorcerer has the right to enter and leave combat at will. If you attack the enemy and then run away, then why doesn't the enemy have the right to catch up with you? Personally, I was infuriated by the fact that when a sorcerer attacks you and he cannot kill you, he calmly leaves, and when I lose in pvp, I cannot get away from him. Personally, I find it disgusting.

Wow ok well let me try to explain this a bit. I understand that for some that don't play sorc or see the game in a different way this won't make sense but oh well here goes.

Also keep in mind this explanation varies depending on build and class. It can vary by a little or by a lot.

The idea was that a sorc has good burst damage but questionable healing. It was played as a hit and run class. The tradeoff to this is supposed to be that if you're a less mobile class like that you are given bigger heals, defenses, and damage to offset this.

So normally as a sorc yes I can move in and out of combat at range but you will either have ways to defend at range or high damage that will burst me if I don't move around a lot because I can't just heal through it. Also gap closers are supposed to be a thing but why run those when you can just run up to the sorc.

I'll back up for a sec, gap closers are to sorc with streak what detect skill/ pots are to nb, a reasonable counter. But as with most counters it's not supposed to always apply. You're not supposed to win every combat scenario or be prepared to win against all types of combatants. But if you see a sorc, don't like sorcs, whatever and you slot a gap closer then hey it's your lucky day!

It's things like this that make other tradeoffs ok. Like if I'm a sorc I am ok with templar purging my curse, nb cloaking out, warden using slabs on frags, etc

The argument I suppose is this. Purpose build combat trumps one size fits all combat.

Its like with racing games, do you want all cars to handle the same way and just be different colors or do you like it when one car turns better, another is faster on straights, and another is just decent at both and different spots in the track favor different cars?

The latter scenario creates more fun rewarding gameplay if you're into that type of thing.

Another way to say it is this game was supposed to be Chess but if every piece can move the same then we're getting closer to checkers. Both games are cool for what they are but different people will want to play one or the other sometimes.

Melzo

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I don't understand the argument that only a sorcerer has the right to enter and leave combat at will. If you attack the enemy and then run away, then why doesn't the enemy have the right to catch up with you? Personally, I was infuriated by the fact that when a sorcerer attacks you and he cannot kill you, he calmly leaves, and when I lose in pvp, I cannot get away from him. Personally, I find it disgusting.

Wow ok well let me try to explain this a bit. I understand that for some that don't play sorc or see the game in a different way this won't make sense but oh well here goes.

Also keep in mind this explanation varies depending on build and class. It can vary by a little or by a lot.

The idea was that a sorc has good burst damage but questionable healing. It was played as a hit and run class. The tradeoff to this is supposed to be that if you're a less mobile class like that you are given bigger heals, defenses, and damage to offset this.

So normally as a sorc yes I can move in and out of combat at range but you will either have ways to defend at range or high damage that will burst me if I don't move around a lot because I can't just heal through it. Also gap closers are supposed to be a thing but why run those when you can just run up to the sorc.

I'll back up for a sec, gap closers are to sorc with streak what detect skill/ pots are to nb, a reasonable counter. But as with most counters it's not supposed to always apply. You're not supposed to win every combat scenario or be prepared to win against all types of combatants. But if you see a sorc, don't like sorcs, whatever and you slot a gap closer then hey it's your lucky day!

It's things like this that make other tradeoffs ok. Like if I'm a sorc I am ok with templar purging my curse, nb cloaking out, warden using slabs on frags, etc

The argument I suppose is this. Purpose build combat trumps one size fits all combat.

Its like with racing games, do you want all cars to handle the same way and just be different colors or do you like it when one car turns better, another is faster on straights, and another is just decent at both and different spots in the track favor different cars?

The latter scenario creates more fun rewarding gameplay if you're into that type of thing.

Another way to say it is this game was supposed to be Chess but if every piece can move the same then we're getting closer to checkers. Both games are cool for what they are but different people will want to play one or the other sometimes.

Your arguments are correct if we played two or three years ago. Look at the necromancer and show me where the good healing is. Ghost and mortol coil heal for 600 each. Significant skill nerfs are coming. Now the sorcerer cannot burst the enemy in 3-4 seconds. Initially, the classes were original and represented a unique gameplay. But now they are slowly systematically destroying what they originally created and are moving in an unknown direction. From above, an argument was made with arcanist portals, and in response, this person was told that the portals were garbage. Why sorcerer teleportation skill should be good and vampire teleportation shouldn't exist and why such a dismissive attitude towards arcanist portals given the fact that this skill is much worse than sorcerer skill and should get a buff. You don't need to look at the awesome gameplay from the point of view of three years ago.

Mist form is a good skill. And this is clearly a good change. It would be better if they brought more variety to the game.

I can understand if you want to buff the sorcerer, but don't tell me that you need to take away a good skill from all the other players, especially when these same players have been asking for direct healing for several months and suddenly they make conditions. Either direct healing to the sorcerer or remove the mist form. Hypocrisy and nothing more.

Bushido2513

Melzo wrote: »

Your arguments are correct if we played two or three years ago. Look at the necromancer and show me where the good healing is. Ghost and mortol coil heal for 600 each. Significant skill nerfs are coming.

I can and have built a necro that really won't die in a 1v1 and even in 1vx. The necro suffers from bad identity but the self heals are top tier when run correctly. Necro offense is trash and that does need to be addressed. Necro heals are as follows

Resistant flesh, armor and a good heal.
Bone goliath, reset the match and heal when doing damage around you.
Scythe, increased heals per enemy hit with an initial heal
Bitter harvest heal and major protection
Mender
spirit guardian
tether
Multiple passives that support healing and defense just for slotting skills

Lol what are you talking about healing ??? When built correctly just try killing one and they will stand there and face tank. A sorc cannot face tank unless built absolutely as a tank and even then....

Melzo wrote: »

From above, an argument was made with arcanist portals, and in response, this person was told that the portals were garbage. Why sorcerer teleportation skill should be good and vampire teleportation shouldn't exist and why such a dismissive attitude towards arcanist portals given the fact that this skill is much worse than sorcerer skill and should get a buff. You don't need to look at the awesome gameplay from the point of view of three years ago.

Mist form is a good skill. And this is clearly a good change. It would be better if they brought more variety to the game.

I can understand if you want to buff the sorcerer, but don't tell me that you need to take away a good skill from all the other players, especially when these same players have been asking for direct healing for several months and suddenly they make conditions. Either direct healing to the sorcerer or remove the mist form. Hypocrisy and nothing more.

I haven't played arcanist so I can't comment on the portal but I will say I always vote for unique gameplay and if the portal gives that truly then I'm ok.

Mist form would have been fine to have left as is but just tone down the mitigation or make it so that people couldn't stay in it as long. It doesn't need to be removed but there were better ways to make it useable including still in pve. Tweaking it would have been fine I think.

So he said a few things. He also was ok if we just removed all the free speed in the game and just made streak stand out more. I'm sure @StaticWave would be ok with mist form being back to the old version but just adjusted correctly so that it was still useful but not abused.


So here's the problem if we buff sorc heals, then it's just a less unique version of something else. I like the hit and run playstyle for what it is but the problem is now the run part of it really isn't there.

For the record I don't care about mistform being another disengagement tool, I just don't like it looking so close to sorcs disengagement tool.

But overall the real problem is that everyone has free access to movement speed and snare removal with barely any cost.

Melzo

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Your arguments are correct if we played two or three years ago. Look at the necromancer and show me where the good healing is. Ghost and mortol coil heal for 600 each. Significant skill nerfs are coming.

I can and have built a necro that really won't die in a 1v1 and even in 1vx. The necro suffers from bad identity but the self heals are top tier when run correctly. Necro offense is trash and that does need to be addressed. Necro heals are as follows

Resistant flesh, armor and a good heal.
Bone goliath, reset the match and heal when doing damage around you.
Scythe, increased heals per enemy hit with an initial heal
Bitter harvest heal and major protection
Mender
spirit guardian
tether
Multiple passives that support healing and defense just for slotting skills

Lol what are you talking about healing ??? When built correctly just try killing one and they will stand there and face tank. A sorc cannot face tank unless built absolutely as a tank and even then....

Melzo wrote: »

From above, an argument was made with arcanist portals, and in response, this person was told that the portals were garbage. Why sorcerer teleportation skill should be good and vampire teleportation shouldn't exist and why such a dismissive attitude towards arcanist portals given the fact that this skill is much worse than sorcerer skill and should get a buff. You don't need to look at the awesome gameplay from the point of view of three years ago.

Mist form is a good skill. And this is clearly a good change. It would be better if they brought more variety to the game.

I can understand if you want to buff the sorcerer, but don't tell me that you need to take away a good skill from all the other players, especially when these same players have been asking for direct healing for several months and suddenly they make conditions. Either direct healing to the sorcerer or remove the mist form. Hypocrisy and nothing more.

I haven't played arcanist so I can't comment on the portal but I will say I always vote for unique gameplay and if the portal gives that truly then I'm ok.

Mist form would have been fine to have left as is but just tone down the mitigation or make it so that people couldn't stay in it as long. It doesn't need to be removed but there were better ways to make it useable including still in pve. Tweaking it would have been fine I think.

So he said a few things. He also was ok if we just removed all the free speed in the game and just made streak stand out more. I'm sure @StaticWave would be ok with mist form being back to the old version but just adjusted correctly so that it was still useful but not abused.


So here's the problem if we buff sorc heals, then it's just a less unique version of something else. I like the hit and run playstyle for what it is but the problem is now the run part of it really isn't there.

For the record I don't care about mistform being another disengagement tool, I just don't like it looking so close to sorcs disengagement tool.

But overall the real problem is that everyone has free access to movement speed and snare removal with barely any cost.

Players underestimate slow and root immunity too much. Many players use acceleration rather than mist form. The fog form suits ranged and solo players. But immobilizing or slowing down such players is easy.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Your arguments are correct if we played two or three years ago. Look at the necromancer and show me where the good healing is. Ghost and mortol coil heal for 600 each. Significant skill nerfs are coming.

I can and have built a necro that really won't die in a 1v1 and even in 1vx. The necro suffers from bad identity but the self heals are top tier when run correctly. Necro offense is trash and that does need to be addressed. Necro heals are as follows

Resistant flesh, armor and a good heal.
Bone goliath, reset the match and heal when doing damage around you.
Scythe, increased heals per enemy hit with an initial heal
Bitter harvest heal and major protection
Mender
spirit guardian
tether
Multiple passives that support healing and defense just for slotting skills

Lol what are you talking about healing ??? When built correctly just try killing one and they will stand there and face tank. A sorc cannot face tank unless built absolutely as a tank and even then....

Melzo wrote: »

From above, an argument was made with arcanist portals, and in response, this person was told that the portals were garbage. Why sorcerer teleportation skill should be good and vampire teleportation shouldn't exist and why such a dismissive attitude towards arcanist portals given the fact that this skill is much worse than sorcerer skill and should get a buff. You don't need to look at the awesome gameplay from the point of view of three years ago.

Mist form is a good skill. And this is clearly a good change. It would be better if they brought more variety to the game.

I can understand if you want to buff the sorcerer, but don't tell me that you need to take away a good skill from all the other players, especially when these same players have been asking for direct healing for several months and suddenly they make conditions. Either direct healing to the sorcerer or remove the mist form. Hypocrisy and nothing more.

I haven't played arcanist so I can't comment on the portal but I will say I always vote for unique gameplay and if the portal gives that truly then I'm ok.

Mist form would have been fine to have left as is but just tone down the mitigation or make it so that people couldn't stay in it as long. It doesn't need to be removed but there were better ways to make it useable including still in pve. Tweaking it would have been fine I think.

So he said a few things. He also was ok if we just removed all the free speed in the game and just made streak stand out more. I'm sure @StaticWave would be ok with mist form being back to the old version but just adjusted correctly so that it was still useful but not abused.


So here's the problem if we buff sorc heals, then it's just a less unique version of something else. I like the hit and run playstyle for what it is but the problem is now the run part of it really isn't there.

For the record I don't care about mistform being another disengagement tool, I just don't like it looking so close to sorcs disengagement tool.

But overall the real problem is that everyone has free access to movement speed and snare removal with barely any cost.

Players underestimate slow and root immunity too much. Many players use acceleration rather than mist form. The fog form suits ranged and solo players. But immobilizing or slowing down such players is easy.

Root and slow immunity is really bad after they reduced it to a maximum of 4 seconds. You need follow-up movement speed to get out of melee snare range before immunity expires.

Race Against Time is only good because it provides Major Expedition with a snare immunity. Remove Major Expedition and it won't be used ever. If you stack enough movement speed, you can also just negate most snares. That's why Elude is being used over Shuffle because it provides Major Expedition everytime you take AoE damage, even though Shuffle gives a decent amount of snare and root immunity.

Major Expedition, 5 medium, Celerity CP, and you're already at +50% movement speed. Add in 40% sprint speed and 15% from 5 medium, you're at +105% total speed, or 5% over the speed cap. Let say you get snared by 50%, that's still a +55% extra speed if you sprint to get out of it. Now let's add a skill that can create distance and also give you Major Expedition (Mist Form, ring a bell?), and you can simply just use it to get out of their range, then start sprinting to get away.

StaticWave

Now I'm not saying Major Expedition wasn't around 4-5 years ago. You could access it via pots (it used to last 43 seconds), Bow passive, Rapid Maneuver, and Cowards' Gear set, but that's a pretty big sacrifice to make. You had to either give up SnB defense/Resto healing, tri-pots for extra sustain, an entire skill on your bar, or a whole 5-piece set to gain access to Major Expedition. Now? You don't even need Major Expedition as speed is pretty much given to you for relatively little investment. 3x Swift + Celerity + 5 Medium and you're already at +41% movement speed. Add the extra sprint speed and you're at +96% total speed, just 4% off the speed cap.

This is what I meant when I said speed was given to people for basically free. Medium is BiS, and your most important 3 red CPs are already slotted (Pain's Refuge, Sustained By Suffering, Survival Instincts), making Celerity a no brainer for Cyrodiil. Therefore, you are realistically only sacrificing 3x Infused/Blood Thirsty traits for a substantial amount of movement speed, which could mean life or death because speed is just so important to get in and out of fights quickly. You can't make use of that extra damage if you're dead, but if you're fast you can fight for longer.

I'm not asking for current sources of movement speed to be removed completely, I'm simply asking for the opportunity cost for slotting them to be significant enough that players have to think about it carefully.

StaticWave

Now this may sound contradicting to some people because I said root and snare immunity is bad if there's no follow-up movement speed, but that's an entirely separate issue. Realistically, you don't need the extra movement speed if the immunity lasts long enough. Back when Forward Momentum lasted 8s instead of 4s, you did not really need all that extra speed because you simply could not be snared or rooted for 8s, which was enough time for you to drop a quick ult dump, get a few kills, then get out.

After the nerf, you had to build more speed to create enough distance because recasting it every 4s is a huge waste of stam/mag. In fact, recasting any snare & root immunity right now is a huge waste of resources if you do not have enough movement speed to get away. That is why Snow Treaders is such a carry for ball groups because some snares/roots are just ridiculously OP (Bombard, Ash Cloud, Caltrops, etc.). You don't have to worry about all of that if you never get snared or rooted.

Basically, what I'm saying is there also needs to be compromise if movement speed is harder to achieve. Snare and root immunity duration needs to be slightly increased. People will move slower, but they won't be slowed as easily. Does that mean it will be harder to kill them? No, definitely not. You still need to move fast to survive, or eventually you will be overwhelmed and that snare/root immunity won't be able to save you. What this change can do though, is give Sorc back the speed advantage it has lost over the years. Sorc will be able to survive better, and you won't need to give it a burst heal if it can reliably take advantage of its innate faster movement speed.

OBJnoob

This isn't exactly what you said Static but this is kinda where my brain went reading your post... Sorc could use an in-class snare removal/immunity.

I'm playing mine without a source right now... So I only have minor exp + major + orc and a couple pieces of medium. And streak.

You'd think this would add up to being pretty fast but unfortunately not. So many things seem to have a secondary slowing effect these days. I rarely come out of a streak or a roll (using a bow for major,) and feel fast. Quite the opposite I normally feel rather bogged down.

If Lightning Form (is that what the base skill of hurricane is called?) Granted 2 or 4 seconds of snare immunity that would be helpful. And I can see some people warning that this would make the skill overloaded, because admittedly it does do a lot. But I don't think the skill is strong like it used to be when, for example, it brought NBs out of stealth. In fact I know some sorcs wear Mighty Chudan just so they don't have to slot the skill.

Or, conversely, do sorcs have any snares in their kit?? Kinda funny that the kiting class wouldn't have any snares isn't it? I don't think any NBs use Crippling Grasp... I'll gladly take that one!

Giulietta

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc's identity has always been the ability to enter or leave a fight at will with Streak/Ball of Lightning and have a fast movement speed. That identity is now gone when every class can slot Mist Form if they want to or stack movement speed with little investment. This does not help that Sorc is also the only class whose healing is not yet updated with the recent meta. Why play sorc when other classes have better healing and can also copy Sorc's identity?

If ZOS's Dev team is not willing to give Sorc a reliable source of healing, then I want Mist Form change reverted and movement speed sources harder to get.

great suggestion. "give me what I want or take from others what they want" and on top of that you claim the sorc´s identity was stolen. the sorc´s identity is untouched: it´s defined by flappywings.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

This isn't exactly what you said Static but this is kinda where my brain went reading your post... Sorc could use an in-class snare removal/immunity.

I'm playing mine without a source right now... So I only have minor exp + major + orc and a couple pieces of medium. And streak.

You'd think this would add up to being pretty fast but unfortunately not. So many things seem to have a secondary slowing effect these days. I rarely come out of a streak or a roll (using a bow for major,) and feel fast. Quite the opposite I normally feel rather bogged down.

If Lightning Form (is that what the base skill of hurricane is called?) Granted 2 or 4 seconds of snare immunity that would be helpful. And I can see some people warning that this would make the skill overloaded, because admittedly it does do a lot. But I don't think the skill is strong like it used to be when, for example, it brought NBs out of stealth. In fact I know some sorcs wear Mighty Chudan just so they don't have to slot the skill.

Or, conversely, do sorcs have any snares in their kit?? Kinda funny that the kiting class wouldn't have any snares isn't it? I don't think any NBs use Crippling Grasp... I'll gladly take that one!

It does have an in class snare cleanse in the form of Ball of Lightning, but the issue is you would have to waste an extra slot for a stun. Sorc already lacks bar space for abilities anyways (magsorc has to slot Chudan, and stamsorc can't slot an extra dmg ability). The immunity doesnt even last that long anyways, only 2s lol.

If Ball of Lightning gave Major Expedition and a snare cleanse, then i would help the class a lot. I would 100% trade the snare cleanse for 4s of Major Expedition any day of the week tbh.