New Mist Form and easy access to movement speed killed Sorc identity

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Other classes don't use Mist Form because they haven't needed it yet. Think about it, if you can heal through damage on a Sorc, why would you use Ball of Lightning to create distance? The same logic applies to other classes. Most classes except Sorc have very good healing and can comfortably heal through damage, so they don't really need to slot it until they are overwhelmingly outnumbered. In that specific scenario, Mist Form will provide them a Ball of Lightning-like escape, Major Evasion, Major Expedition, and ~400 WD/SD for 6 seconds which also buffs their heals. It's just a better ability than Ball of Lightning for other classes.

This point right here, I would like to see an actual answer to this.

Why run an ability to create distance when you can simply face-tank and heal through the damage and immediately turn and burn back since you are still in range and don't have to either move back to your target or wait for them to catch up to you to turn and burn them.

Also with how cheap and abundant movement speed is, you can (and most do) slot RaT instead since they can run and keep up with streak just through this instead so it's even less needed on other classes thanks to the (basically) free movement speed currently available to everyone combined with their much stronger healing allowing them to not be forced into running away to be able to heal.

Something that I am surprised has not caught on (probably because most NBs are extremely stubborn and refuse to look at defensive tools outside of invis spam), but mist form is especially potent on NBs allowing for mobility options that would make sorcs jealous, with NB having the additional advantage of being able to run blood mist for an additional DoT + heal since they already have evasion from blur and expedition from refreshing path in their kit already and the standard NB burst combo is so bar space efficient they have the room for all of these skills if they desire it.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

I enjoyed reading that @StaticWave that was a good circumspect explanation. Easy for me to say since I kinda agree anyway... But still, I think you explained it well.

Ultimately I think it's cool that sorcs are/were the class that heals through offense. It's a good identity to have. It's good to have any identity these days. But it does fail when there are more people hitting you than you can hit back, because the incoming damage doesn't stop if you can't force them to defend. Forcing 1 person out of 5 to defend still means you're being hit by 4.

Which... Honestly burst heals kinda have the same downfall. Easy to get trapped on your backbar spamming heals until you go OOM and die. Maybe the real problem is that all good sorc pvp abilities are single-target? Feel free to not respond to that. It's either insightful or just totally off topic and I'm not sure which.

And of course there's shields, which are kinda supposed to be the sorcs burst heal. They just aren't as efficient as healing because you can boost your damage and healing by the same margin with the same stat. Whereas to boost your shield you're using something that contributes to damage much less.

Something to note, shields are closer in function to HoTs than they are to burst heals.

HoTs are designed to counteract damage over time (pressure) that would get you low enough for a burst combo to then get the final blow and this is also what shields do. Burst heals however, are designed to instantly bring you out of that danger range after a big burst to recover and stabilize to keep fighting and prevent a secondary (often slightly weaker) burst from finishing you off should that initial burst fail to do the job.

It's why the combination of HoTs and burst heals are always used together on other classes and why lacking a burst heal is such an issue for sorcs in PvP.

The HoTs counteract the damage over time (or pressure if you will) and burst heals counteract the incoming bursts of damage. This is partially why it looks like DoTs are useless, because HoTs completely counteract DoTs so they don't appear to do anything (except they still do, they mostly cancel out HoTs and shields, but burst heals are very strong right now so burst also gets countered by burst heals leaving us with a very tanky meta).

Currently sorc is running the equivalent of multiple HoTs with an interruptible burst heal that heals for much less than other burst heals and hence why sorc really struggles to recover from burst combos since the pressure eats up the shields and then the HoTs take too long to get out of that burst range before the next burst is thrown at the sorc.

It's why sorcs always run away as soon as they get near burst range because they have no way to recover from that position outside of running away via streak to give them enough time for the HoTs and multiple casts of dark deal to bring them back up while they recast shields to counteract the DoTs (pressure) still lingering on them.

It's also why the most common way sorcs build to use Mara's Balm is to have that set only active on the back bar, this enables it to be a burst heal that is mostly on demand by switching to the back bar (a 1 button burst heal that the other classes have in their kits).

As for AoE damage, it's something that could be looked into (I would like to see some more AoE options for the class, especially for PvE and thematically with lightning magic). It would have to be an AoE DoT that is reliable enough to constantly proc crit surge (strong sticky DoT or area damage over time around the class, or guaranteed or increased chance to crit) or, again, the class would have to be given a reliable burst heal at which point the class is just DK but with new skill + streak instead of FoO + talons/fossilize/leap or plar but with the new skill + streak instead of barrage + charge, further reducing class identity.

Sorc used to have mines which was good AoE for enclosed spaces (sewers, keep roofs, some areas of BG maps and resource towers), but that got completely gutted in U35 thanks to its combination with dark convergence that when used in very specific areas (see some ledges next to keep doors/walls) that pulled groups into a space that had all 3 mines stacked up due to the terrain layout restricting the spread of the mines to a tiny AoE allowing for a very niche but powerful sorc bomb that could stack with negate to prevent majority of counter play.

OBJnoob

Kinda disagree about shields being more like HoTs than burst heals. My hardened Ward is good for 11.5k HP with battlespirit active. Pretty on par with burst heals. It's instant cast and, more importantly, gives the full effect immediately. So while I do understand your point about (at least I think this is what you meant,) how it doesn't take you out of execute so people still do more damage to you... And that is indeed an important difference... But kinda the only one. I think shields are best used proactively and burst heals of course are used reactively. The idea is to anticipate the burst and shield it, not shield after it.

Not super important just my thoughts.

As far as the AoE attacks go I'm glad you agree. I'll take it a step further. Crit surge doesn't even have to be the main goal. I think the Dark Magic line needs more useful PvP skills so more sorcs (that don't necessarily want to build for crit,) can at least benefit from the Blood Magic passive heal as well. My sorc is stam leaning and uses crystal weapon, so I can use that heal fairly often. If you're using frags instead obviously you don't get the heal nearly as much. And I don't know sorcs as well as you guys, but I think the rest of the line has next to nothing of use. Or maybe I'm wrong. What tree does Curse belong to?

OBJnoob

@Turtle_Bot Okay wait I got a good one. I think you'll agree with me in this hypothetical. Between HoTs, burst heals, and shields, you can only have 2. One of them has to be the shield. Which of the other two do you pair with it?

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot Okay wait I got a good one. I think you'll agree with me in this hypothetical. Between HoTs, burst heals, and shields, you can only have 2. One of them has to be the shield. Which of the other two do you pair with it?

If sorcs had a burst heal i think more would opt for shield and a burst heal and in that case turtle is right about it being more like a hot. You normally use your hot to go offensive and keep you topped up during your combo and in this case a shield would function the same way. Shield up and go offensive then re apply as needed and when you get low heal up and shield again.

OBJnoob

Well. It's looking like I'm wrong then, eh? Lol. I can live with that I guess.

For me... I'm taking hardened ward and pairing it with vigor. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday.

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. It's looking like I'm wrong then, eh? Lol. I can live with that I guess.

For me... I'm taking hardened ward and pairing it with vigor. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday.

Not really wrong it just depends on the context it is being used in. In the one i out forth it acts more like a hot in yours its more like a proactive hot but when you take damage its like a reactive burst heal that gives artificial health while your hots heal you up. Its just in the latter when your in execute the shield doesnt get you out of it and thats where the pain point lies

SandandStars

I’m gonna agree with @StaticWave that Streak is core to Sorc (especially Magsorc) identity and viability in PvP.

For what it’s worth, my experience playing Magsorc in PvP has led me to utilize Streak more than any other skill and to be extremely attuned to predicting when I’m going to need it several seconds before that moment arrives.

Magsorc’s dmg skills are awkwardly slow and unweildy, and with the exception of a proc’d crystal frag, do very mediocre damage. Matriarch heal is strong, but God knows where she is flapped off too and she’s dead half the time.

Streak is really the only thing that keeps my Magsorc in the game. Along with some lucky frag procs.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

Kinda disagree about shields being more like HoTs than burst heals. My hardened Ward is good for 11.5k HP with battlespirit active. Pretty on par with burst heals. It's instant cast and, more importantly, gives the full effect immediately. So while I do understand your point about (at least I think this is what you meant,) how it doesn't take you out of execute so people still do more damage to you... And that is indeed an important difference... But kinda the only one. I think shields are best used proactively and burst heals of course are used reactively. The idea is to anticipate the burst and shield it, not shield after it.

True shields can be used this way too, but I do see them more as a heal over time since they only last for a set duration then expire and have to be re-cast, the same way HoTs do. I guess they could be considered a mix of a HoT and a burst heal, but not as good as both for what they are used for.

As far as the AoE attacks go I'm glad you agree. I'll take it a step further. Crit surge doesn't even have to be the main goal. I think the Dark Magic line needs more useful PvP skills so more sorcs (that don't necessarily want to build for crit,) can at least benefit from the Blood Magic passive heal as well. My sorc is stam leaning and uses crystal weapon, so I can use that heal fairly often. If you're using frags instead obviously you don't get the heal nearly as much. And I don't know sorcs as well as you guys, but I think the rest of the line has next to nothing of use. Or maybe I'm wrong. What tree does Curse belong to?

Yep, the dark magic line needs a complete rework at this point. I'm not confident that ZOS has the foresight to balance the current skills in that line without either breaking them or making them unusable (see their reworks of crystal weapon and rune cage as perfect examples).

The only skills that directly apply to the enemy on cast from the blood magic line that will proc the blood magic passive are:
- frags/weapon
- rune cage
- maybe encase, this one I'm not sure of since its a ground AoE and technically not directly cast onto a target

Of these, frags is used as delayed burst (similar to whip proc, just more rng based) but can be dodged, rune cage is unreliable since its on a delay and can be dodged, encase I'm not even sure if this procs it and besides, its such a bad ability it's not even worth considering. So out of the potentially 3 abilities that can proc the passive, only 1 is worth running, making blood magic really awkward for the class.
It's also like the persistence passive (same dark magic line), reduces costs after blocking, but sorc wants to either shield, have a pet tank the hit or dodge incoming damage, not block it. There's a lot in the class kit that is like this too that needs to be looked at and redesigned to better fit the classes design and themes.

Curse belongs to the summoning skill line (2nd skill).

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot Okay wait I got a good one. I think you'll agree with me in this hypothetical. Between HoTs, burst heals, and shields, you can only have 2. One of them has to be the shield. Which of the other two do you pair with it?

Easy question for me, Shield + burst heal.

It might just be my playstyle, but I mainly use the shield to counteract DoT pressure (similar to running vigor on the front bar), so I can easily give up the HoT for the shield for this purpose, where as due to playing on minimum 300 ping, it's next to impossible to reliably predict and react to an incoming burst with a shield in time so a burst heal is far more suitable for me over an additional HoT since I need that option to quickly recover from execute range much more than others who have much lower ping.

Turtle_Bot

Weckless wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. It's looking like I'm wrong then, eh? Lol. I can live with that I guess.

For me... I'm taking hardened ward and pairing it with vigor. All day, every day, and twice on Sunday.

Not really wrong it just depends on the context it is being used in. In the one i out forth it acts more like a hot in yours its more like a proactive hot but when you take damage its like a reactive burst heal that gives artificial health while your hots heal you up. Its just in the latter when your in execute the shield doesnt get you out of it and thats where the pain point lies

well explained, this is how I use shields and why the lack of a burst heal is such a pain point for the class for me.

OBJnoob

I concede the point. Honestly I'll try to start using shields more like you guys say... Maybe it'll help me be a better sorc.

I've had some pretty good sorcs in the past but they were stamsorcs and I didn't use shields. Not that I haven't played magsorc but that was a good 5 years ago.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I concede the point. Honestly I'll try to start using shields more like you guys say... Maybe it'll help me be a better sorc.

I've had some pretty good sorcs in the past but they were stamsorcs and I didn't use shields. Not that I haven't played magsorc but that was a good 5 years ago.

I tried shield on melee stamsorc and it was ok. The biggest weakness of shield in a melee build imo is the 6s duration. It's just too short. I have to stop my offense a lot just to reapply the shield even if I'm not taking damage because it would expire during the offense. Block healing is much better for melee stamsorc in this regard.

If shield was intended to be use proactively, I think it should last slightly longer. Maybe 8s would be enough, thoughts?

NyassaV

Streak/BOL are better than mistform tbh. Mistform feels really really slow.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

I concede the point. Honestly I'll try to start using shields more like you guys say... Maybe it'll help me be a better sorc.

I've had some pretty good sorcs in the past but they were stamsorcs and I didn't use shields. Not that I haven't played magsorc but that was a good 5 years ago.

It's fine, you're probably not even wrong here as it does make sense to use shields this way, it's just using them as a HoT is how myself and likely many others use shields on sorc.

If using them to predict and mitigate a burst works for you then for sure keep doing that, it's just that way to use shields doesn't work for me due to ping issues that prevent me from doing it reliably, hence why I use shields the way I do.

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I concede the point. Honestly I'll try to start using shields more like you guys say... Maybe it'll help me be a better sorc.

I've had some pretty good sorcs in the past but they were stamsorcs and I didn't use shields. Not that I haven't played magsorc but that was a good 5 years ago.

I tried shield on melee stamsorc and it was ok. The biggest weakness of shield in a melee build imo is the 6s duration. It's just too short. I have to stop my offense a lot just to reapply the shield even if I'm not taking damage because it would expire during the offense. Block healing is much better for melee stamsorc in this regard.

If shield was intended to be use proactively, I think it should last slightly longer. Maybe 8s would be enough, thoughts?

Yeah, I tried them on my melee magsorc back in U33, I immediately swapped back to resto staff with blessings instead, pretty much for this reason.

The old 10 second duration was actually the right duration for using the skill pre-emptively, it lasted long enough to cover sorcs rotation + 1-2 seconds buffer time to help with flow of combat that is constantly shifting or lag or performance issues.

It was overtuned back then with how shields functioned, how damage scaled with max mag, not being affected by battle spirit and their general tooltips were larger, but with how they currently function, the 10s duration would be fine to have.

OBJnoob

I'm not sure the duration really matters for melee sorc. But for ranged sorc I'm sure it would help.

So as you know I've been toying around with the HP shield. And it is on a melee stamsorc. Now it probably works better in a duel but I've mostly been using BGs to practice. Let's not call it an outnumbered situation because everyone isn't focused on me... But let's call it brawler chaos situations. The shield "never" lasts the full duration anyway, it gets taken away by incoming damage before the 6 seconds is up. And this is with a shield of about 10k without CP... Probably higher than you ever got it on a stamsorc before the change.

But that's just my personal experience. I fully support making the duration longer. I'm not saying it wouldn't help at all.

The only problem I'm really having with my build is that melee light attacks have always been super hard for me to land reliably in PvP and as such (having clipped some of my BGs and watched it back,) I'm making terrible use of Crystal Weapon and therefore terrible healing from Blood Magic passive.

Pretty upsetting, because the survivability feels good, and I would like to say the offense is okay in theory but in practice my dude is just swinging his big oversized maul at a sea of enemies and hitting jack squat. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad! So Im going to start using a bow instead.

But uh, yeah, block-healing isn't an option for me anyway I'm using Gaze of Sithis to help buff the shield so I'm just shielding healing and rolling.

OBJnoob

But back to the topic... Is there anything that can be done to ball of lightning to help sorc get it's identity back, kite better/move faster, or protect it more? Would this even help?

Vevvev

OBJnoob wrote: »

But back to the topic... Is there anything that can be done to ball of lightning to help sorc get it's identity back, kite better/move faster, or protect it more? Would this even help?

Unnerf the amount of projectiles absorbed by Ball of Lightning.

Unlike Mistform, which negates the damage of the projectile but still has the additional effects applied, Ball of Lightning absorbs the entire projectile after the dash and it's effects. This means get hit with a ranged attack that stuns you'll be stunned when you leave Mistform's dash, but not the same with BoL.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not sure the duration really matters for melee sorc. But for ranged sorc I'm sure it would help.

The longer duration would mean higher commitment by enemies to keeping increased pressure on the sorc to keep it defensive for longer or commit to a more than just a spammable every few seconds + DoT of choice to remove the shield sooner since 8-10 seconds is enough to at least partially recover even with sorcs healing issues.

So while it won't help in high pressure 1vX situations that guaranteed melt the shield instantly anymore than it would help for range builds, having that additional buffer would help in more drawn out fights and also when trying to protect against a persistent ganker (since most gankers are easily willing to wait that short 6 second timer out, however an 8-10 second wait will get them bored and move on or force the fight sooner without completely draining resources on multiple (3+) casts of shield + all buffs/detection etc.

StaticWave

Just wanted to show people how easy it is to chase down a streaking sorc. In this clip I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting. Didn't use a gap closer or my own Streak. Keep in mind I also have 250+ ping, which makes bar swapping and casting abilities more delayed.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Had no issue catching up to a sorc that Streaked 4x in a row. Now imagine if I had used my own Streak, or had a gap closer with maximum speed lol.

Brrrofski

I think I've seen the new mist form a handful of times in PvP. I honestly rarely ever see it. Way less than the old one.

So I'm not sure if it is taking away from a sorc. I mean, if it was good, people would use it, no?

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Just wanted to show people how easy it is to chase down a streaking sorc. In this clip I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting. Didn't use a gap closer or my own Streak. Keep in mind I also have 250+ ping, which makes bar swapping and casting abilities more delayed.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Had no issue catching up to a sorc that Streaked 4x in a row. Now imagine if I had used my own Streak, or had a gap closer with maximum speed lol.

The most useless argument I've ever seen.You would sit on a horse and run after the sorcerer. You have a 45% bonus to speed and sprint. Given that you also have medium armor, of course you have a fairly high speed. And the sorcerer you were chasing used a streak and pumped stamina into mana. He didn't run, he walked.

Below you argued what would have happened if you had used a streak. And what prevents the sorcerer's mana from having all the tighter speed that you have ?? I can easily take a bow on the back ponel and the appropriate skill morph to get a 15 percent speed bonus.

They showed a slow sorcerer and a fast one in one example. And at the same time, say what a slow sorcerer .... After all, it is easy to catch up with him even if he has a streak. Nothing prevents you from doing the same speed as the stam sorcerer's .

Maybe your problem is not in the sorcerer, but in ping 250 ?? I have a standard ping of 200 and a syro of 220-360. Nothing works for me in Cyrodiil.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Just wanted to show people how easy it is to chase down a streaking sorc. In this clip I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting. Didn't use a gap closer or my own Streak. Keep in mind I also have 250+ ping, which makes bar swapping and casting abilities more delayed.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Had no issue catching up to a sorc that Streaked 4x in a row. Now imagine if I had used my own Streak, or had a gap closer with maximum speed lol.

The most useless argument I've ever seen.You would sit on a horse and run after the sorcerer. You have a 45% bonus to speed and sprint. Given that you also have medium armor, of course you have a fairly high speed. And the sorcerer you were chasing used a streak and pumped stamina into mana. He didn't run, he walked.

Below you argued what would have happened if you had used a streak. And what prevents the sorcerer's mana from having all the tighter speed that you have ?? I can easily take a bow on the back ponel and the appropriate skill morph to get a 15 percent speed bonus.

They showed a slow sorcerer and a fast one in one example. And at the same time, say what a slow sorcerer .... After all, it is easy to catch up with him even if he has a streak. Nothing prevents you from doing the same speed as the stam sorcerer's .

Maybe your problem is not in the sorcerer, but in ping 250 ?? I have a standard ping of 200 and a syro of 220-360. Nothing works for me in Cyrodiil.

The argument is everyone else can do the same thing by stacking speed (which has been given to people over the years) and preventing Sorc to use Streak effectively as an escape tool. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Just wanted to show people how easy it is to chase down a streaking sorc. In this clip I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting. Didn't use a gap closer or my own Streak. Keep in mind I also have 250+ ping, which makes bar swapping and casting abilities more delayed.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Had no issue catching up to a sorc that Streaked 4x in a row. Now imagine if I had used my own Streak, or had a gap closer with maximum speed lol.

The most useless argument I've ever seen.You would sit on a horse and run after the sorcerer. You have a 45% bonus to speed and sprint. Given that you also have medium armor, of course you have a fairly high speed. And the sorcerer you were chasing used a streak and pumped stamina into mana. He didn't run, he walked.

Below you argued what would have happened if you had used a streak. And what prevents the sorcerer's mana from having all the tighter speed that you have ?? I can easily take a bow on the back ponel and the appropriate skill morph to get a 15 percent speed bonus.

They showed a slow sorcerer and a fast one in one example. And at the same time, say what a slow sorcerer .... After all, it is easy to catch up with him even if he has a streak. Nothing prevents you from doing the same speed as the stam sorcerer's .

Maybe your problem is not in the sorcerer, but in ping 250 ?? I have a standard ping of 200 and a syro of 220-360. Nothing works for me in Cyrodiil.

The argument is everyone else can do the same thing by stacking speed (which has been given to people over the years) and preventing Sorc to use Streak effectively as an escape tool. [snip]

You argue that streak is an escape skill. But the streak is not designed to run away. I just do not understand why you argue that the streak is a skill for running away. Streak is a positioning skill. When they approach you, you break away from the enemy in order to get a few seconds of a head start due to a small distance. And also immobilize the enemy with mines. This is the essence of the game for the sorcerer. In many games there is a skill that looks like a streak like a sorcerer and in all games it has the same goal. With it, you get closer or break away from the enemy, but it is in no way intended to cross Cyrodiil. These are just your fantasies. If you want to run away, then take a skill from the vampire branch and become a stage 4 vampire and also take a set with the same name as your gameplay.

But the most important thing is that half of the Cyrodiil runs with a mythical item that slows their speed by 40 percent. And the strongest players run with him. Be it warden or dk or nb. All of these classes don't even use the mist form to speed . For the most part, all these players run like turtles.

Mist Forms and Streak are completely different skills, and there are skills that are more similar. Acceleration and overseer wings, two-handed and NB finishing moves, Galiath and vampire ancestor or whatever they call him. There are a bunch of skills that are more similar in their mechanics and need to be improved, but definitely not a foggy form, which obviously will not replace the streak.

You ask for direct healing, but you have two skills with access to it and a restoration staff that also heals with direct healing. You are asking for mana shield to scale with spell damage, but melee sorcerers with medium armor will have 600+ more spell damage than sorcerers with light armor. You say a streak is an escape skill, but it's a positioning skill, not an escape skill. You ask a lot, and in the same patch you were given two small buffs for free. A mana wizard can easily hold 4 minor buffs. Go to the necromancer and try to find the same number there.

[edited to remove quote]

Melzo

By the way. There is no point in playing other classes if it is impossible to catch up with the sorcerer. I was able to do this two years ago using only one dk chain without any sets or jewelry for haste or mundus. One chain was enough to catch up with the sorcerer, as it accelerated me by 30 percent and slowed the sorcerer by 30 percent.

This topic is intended to make only the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation to everyone and only a sorcerer could escape from the ship. hah.

This whole topic is funny. When you yourself ask for direct healing and at the same time want to take away teleportation from everyone. Just tired of this hypocrisy.

StaticWave

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

The argument is everyone else can do the same thing by stacking speed (which has been given to people over the years) and preventing Sorc to use Streak effectively as an escape tool. Maybe next time you should try to read my argument carefully before trying to call it "useless" lmao.

I did just want to say that while I generally agree with what you were trying to point out, this wasn't the best example. The person being chased takes time to jump and dd, didn't seem to have expedition, may have not had any swift on etc.

I wish I'd recorded some of my experiences in IC dealing with groups and other players who built into speed, it's ridiculous how easily they catch up to you. And I mean this is with me wearing 2 swift, at least 3 medium, and major and minor expedition streaking around corners and through buildings having to use 2nd floor to ground streaks just to get the advantage again.


The only time I've had an advantage on most players is with wild hunt, 3 or more medium, 2 swift , and celerity. And I reason that the advantage is only because my base movement speed was so high that I was near cap just walking.


The point is though that streak as an escape tool is easily outclassed by the available amount of movement speed in the game.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The argument is everyone else can do the same thing by stacking speed (which has been given to people over the years) and preventing Sorc to use Streak effectively as an escape tool. [snip]

I did just want to say that while I generally agree with what you were trying to point out, this wasn't the best example. The person being chased takes time to jump and dd, didn't seem to have expedition, may have not had any swift on etc.

I wish I'd recorded some of my experiences in IC dealing with groups and other players who built into speed, it's ridiculous how easily they catch up to you. And I mean this is with me wearing 2 swift, at least 3 medium, and major and minor expedition streaking around corners and through buildings having to use 2nd floor to ground streaks just to get the advantage again.


The only time I've had an advantage on most players is with wild hunt, 3 or more medium, 2 swift , and celerity. And I reason that the advantage is only because my base movement speed was so high that I was near cap just walking.


The point is though that streak as an escape tool is easily outclassed by the available amount of movement speed in the game.

That is an HP sorc build. That person was using Chudan because bar space is an issue on sorc. If you want to survive on Sorc this patch you need Vigor and Crit Surge, both take up 2 slots. In fact, the mag version of the build (Rallying/Wretched) also doesn’t run Major Expedition from Boundless Storm because bar space is an issue.

If you want Boundless, you’re going to drop either Vigor or Ele Sus, both of which are needed.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, one of my arguments was give Sorc a reliable burst heal so it doesn’t need to crutch on Streak. Like I said, you don’t really follow my arguments as much as you think.

It’s easy for you, a Necro whose healing is greater than a Sorc, to mock a Sorc for running away. Why don’t you do us a favor and remove Resistant Flesh, slot Mist Form and Dampen Ward, and tell us how that goes.

Spoiler: You would see how trash that is, similar to how trash Sorc healing is.

Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The basis of the sorcerer is the streak, mines, mana shield and high direct damage to a single target. You could make an argument, for example, to replace light armor bonuses to critical damage chance with a bonus to magicka by 2 percent for each piece of light armor. This would allow the mana sorcerer to get more damage and protection from the mana shield but you want a direct heal and at the same time the mist form does not exist in this form. I don't care if the sorcerer gets any buffs even if it's a direct heal but you are trying to bend your stick about how to heal the players of the skill and get what other players have yourself and at the same time the topic name is the identity of the sorcerer. In fact, this is hypocrisy. I wouldn't mind creating max magic based builds like battlecry+retualist and using a reinforced skull but for some reason the light armor branch shield is less protective than the sorcerer's shield. So, in addition to changing the critical chance to a 2% bonus to magic, can you strengthen the shield from light armor ?? And here are two changes to buff all players based on light armor and buff your build specifically. And you wouldn't have to be so perverted and ask for direct healing and your identity as a sorcerer was preserved. But no, you just have to give a *** to everyone and only strengthen yourself. And call it the sorcerer's identity...

“Each class has advantages and disadvantages”, your words.

Yet you also said “This topic is intended to only make the sorcerer remain a miserable coward. To forbid teleportation from everyone and only the sorcerer can escape”

I find these 2 statements to be extremely contradicting. You admitted that Sorc and Necro have their advantages and disadvantages, which is Streak/high mobility for Sorc and Resistant Flesh/good healing for Necro. But when I made a thread asking for Mist Form to be removed and movement speed harder to get for Sorc to regain their disappearing advantage, you threw a huge fist at me saying I only want my class to have a teleportation skill?

Using your logic, I want a burst heal given to my class. I don’t see why it’s fair that EVERY CLASS has a decent burst heal, but Sorc is the only class that doesn’t.